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On April 24 2012 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Yeah I have no problem with people saying what they like to watch. I don't like people saying that one event is better than another when each event had different strengths. I don't like people proclaiming that one type of event is the way all events should be.
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
You don't like people saying that one event is better than another, to explain us why MLG was far better ?
People like to compare starcraft 2 to a real sport, and I truly believe it's a legitimate sport, in sport you have crowds, story lines, players trying to win at home (Thorzain), not a boring atmosphere, the only thing really entertaining about MLG is the DRG VS MKP rivalry, but that rivalry doesn't even belong to the tournament they can fight each other anywhere
That point of view saying that the only thing that matter is the skill level of the competition is so wrong, it's not true in sports and not true in this case, it's an elitist point of view that doesn't correlate what the mass that is willing to pay or to sleep only 2 hours to watch a tournament think.
You're condescending view about people enjoying a crowd and watching their favorite players really shows how much you understand people from your high horse.
I'm sorry but who are you to decide what is a real SC2 fan ? The minority you are in doesn't represent SC2 fans whatsoever.
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So much drama over a single word.
If anyone care enough to post here, they're already passionate SC2 fans in my book.
Just enjoy the game however you like and respect other people's opinion!
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On April 24 2012 17:26 ramask2 wrote:
So much drama over a single word.
Ironically, If you care enough to post here, you're already passionate SC2 fans in my book.
Just enjoy the game however you like and respect other people's opinions!
If you're a true fan of Starcraft then you are going to argue to the death about what it means to be a true fan of Starcraft! /irony
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On April 24 2012 17:19 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 16:59 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 16:53 Kreb wrote:
If Im caring more about my own national (possibly rather scrappy) football league than La Liga in Spain, even though the quality is much lower, am I not a fan of football then? Maybe Im just a fan of bulgarians/swedes/belgians/americans/you name it?
Umm.. yeah. That is what I mean. I expect to get flamed by tons of sports fans, but its the same thing as the hordes of football 'fans' in the United States who go batshit crazy at the games and don't even understand the rules. They just like drinking beer and being part of a spectacle. It's all about being part of a tribe and rooting for it. It feels good. But they can't be considered fans of the game, because they don't even understand what is going on half of the time. The players could be playing baseball instead of football and half the crowd wouldn't even notice. Many people like sports for the social and psychological aspect, and that's it. Fan is such an overused word nowadays. A football fan is someone who studies the game, who would watch it even if nobody else was and could share the experience with nobody. The game is separate from the pomp and circumstance. No it isn't, it just isn't. Between the 2 extremes you describe there is a LAAAARGE grey zone, how do you call this people if not Fans? Everyone calls them Fans, they are Fans, no matter if you think thats right or not.
Ok well, I have no particular attachment to the word. I'd be happy to call what I think of as fans by another name if you can give me one. I realize many people place a lot of importance on being a fan and I won't deny them it. Surely there is a term to describe Tyler's perspective to differentiate it from the casual viewers perspective? That is what language is for, right?
People get so attached to language, its pretty stupid. You are what you are, whether someone calls you a fan or not a fan. Language is descriptive, it holds no power.
edit: and yes it is. The game is separate from the environment that surrounds it. Was Starcraft not a game before crowds started watching it? Is rock paper scissors not a game because there aren't storylines and excitement?
Game = a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other
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On April 24 2012 17:29 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:19 Velr wrote:On April 24 2012 16:59 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 16:53 Kreb wrote:
If Im caring more about my own national (possibly rather scrappy) football league than La Liga in Spain, even though the quality is much lower, am I not a fan of football then? Maybe Im just a fan of bulgarians/swedes/belgians/americans/you name it?
Umm.. yeah. That is what I mean. I expect to get flamed by tons of sports fans, but its the same thing as the hordes of football 'fans' in the United States who go batshit crazy at the games and don't even understand the rules. They just like drinking beer and being part of a spectacle. It's all about being part of a tribe and rooting for it. It feels good. But they can't be considered fans of the game, because they don't even understand what is going on half of the time. The players could be playing baseball instead of football and half the crowd wouldn't even notice. Many people like sports for the social and psychological aspect, and that's it. Fan is such an overused word nowadays. A football fan is someone who studies the game, who would watch it even if nobody else was and could share the experience with nobody. The game is separate from the pomp and circumstance. No it isn't, it just isn't. Between the 2 extremes you describe there is a LAAAARGE grey zone, how do you call this people if not Fans? Everyone calls them Fans, they are Fans, no matter if you think thats right or not. Ok well, I have no particular attachment to the word. I'd be happy to call what I think of as fans by another name if you can give me one. I realize many people place a lot of importance on being a fan and I won't deny them it. Surely there is a term to describe Tyler's perspective to differentiate it from the casual viewers perspective? That is what language is for, right? People get so attached to language, its pretty stupid. You are what you are, whether someone calls you a fan or not a fan. Language is descriptive, it holds no power.
Please don't go to the "words have no inherent meaning" argument. Nothing good can comes of it.
On topic: Nony is a professional SC2 player that watches the game from another perspective then your avarage SC2 viewer. I would hesitate to call him a fan at all, as being a fan usually means to have a passionate connection to something external of your life. But then again that is just my attempt at a definition.
In any case I take it we can agree that his perspective on the game is inherently different to somebody not making a living of the game.
Leaving Nony out of it you could argue that there are (at least) two kind of fans we're talking about:
Fans of SC2 the (E)sport and fans of SC2 the game. One group values classical sports stuff (storylines, personality, us vs. them (Koreans vs white dudes for example)) while the other group values the pure gameplay and strategy higher. Either group calling the other group out for not being "true fans" is at best childish. Both are fans of SC2, they just have diffent priorities and derive their enjoyment from different aspeczs of the game.
On April 24 2012 17:29 zefreak wrote:
edit: and yes it is. The game is separate from the environment that surrounds it. Was Starcraft not a game before crowds started watching it? Is rock paper scissors not a game because there aren't storylines and excitement?
Game = a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other
EDIT myself: Since we're not arguing about what a game is, but rather what a fan is I don't quite see your point.
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On April 24 2012 17:46 msl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:29 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 17:19 Velr wrote:On April 24 2012 16:59 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 16:53 Kreb wrote:
If Im caring more about my own national (possibly rather scrappy) football league than La Liga in Spain, even though the quality is much lower, am I not a fan of football then? Maybe Im just a fan of bulgarians/swedes/belgians/americans/you name it?
Umm.. yeah. That is what I mean. I expect to get flamed by tons of sports fans, but its the same thing as the hordes of football 'fans' in the United States who go batshit crazy at the games and don't even understand the rules. They just like drinking beer and being part of a spectacle. It's all about being part of a tribe and rooting for it. It feels good. But they can't be considered fans of the game, because they don't even understand what is going on half of the time. The players could be playing baseball instead of football and half the crowd wouldn't even notice. Many people like sports for the social and psychological aspect, and that's it. Fan is such an overused word nowadays. A football fan is someone who studies the game, who would watch it even if nobody else was and could share the experience with nobody. The game is separate from the pomp and circumstance. No it isn't, it just isn't. Between the 2 extremes you describe there is a LAAAARGE grey zone, how do you call this people if not Fans? Everyone calls them Fans, they are Fans, no matter if you think thats right or not. Ok well, I have no particular attachment to the word. I'd be happy to call what I think of as fans by another name if you can give me one. I realize many people place a lot of importance on being a fan and I won't deny them it. Surely there is a term to describe Tyler's perspective to differentiate it from the casual viewers perspective? That is what language is for, right? People get so attached to language, its pretty stupid. You are what you are, whether someone calls you a fan or not a fan. Language is descriptive, it holds no power. Please don't go to the "words have no inherent meaning" argument. Nothing good can comes of it. On topic: Nony is a professional SC2 player that watches the game from another perspective then your avarage SC2 viewer. I would hesitate to call him a fan at all, as being a fan usually means to have a passionate connection to something external of your life. But then again that is just my attempt at a definition. In any case I take it we can agree that his perspective on the game is inherently different to somebody not making a living of the game. Leaving Nony out of it you could argue that there are (at least) two kind of fans we're talking about: Fans of SC2 the (E)sport and fans of SC2 the game. One group values classical sports stuff (storylines, personality, us vs. them (Koreans vs white dudes for example)) while the other group values the pure gameplay and strategy higher. Either group calling the other group out for not being "true fans" is at best childish. Both are fans of SC2, they just have diffent priorities and derive their enjoyment from different aspeczs of the game.
I agree with you. I was trying to express that some people are fans of SC2 (the game) while others are fans of.. something, but (the game) is a relatively smaller part of it. Call it E-Sports I guess.
Like I said, being a 'fan' is like a badge of honor in the sports scene, and so it no longer fills its role as simply descriptive. I'm happy to ditch the term, but I was just trying to express that their is a distinction there, and many people try and pretend that there isn't.
I come from a unique position to e-sports because I have never been interested or drawn into traditional sports. I am not drawn to the typical underdog storyline or any of the tropes that traditional sports fans go wild over. I watch the game and follow the scene, but I am primarily motivated by the game itself and not the storylines. I understand the psychology of tribal politics and how it has adapted to group sports. I understand it but I do not like it or promote it.
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On April 24 2012 18:03 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:46 msl wrote:On April 24 2012 17:29 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 17:19 Velr wrote:On April 24 2012 16:59 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 16:53 Kreb wrote:
If Im caring more about my own national (possibly rather scrappy) football league than La Liga in Spain, even though the quality is much lower, am I not a fan of football then? Maybe Im just a fan of bulgarians/swedes/belgians/americans/you name it?
Umm.. yeah. That is what I mean. I expect to get flamed by tons of sports fans, but its the same thing as the hordes of football 'fans' in the United States who go batshit crazy at the games and don't even understand the rules. They just like drinking beer and being part of a spectacle. It's all about being part of a tribe and rooting for it. It feels good. But they can't be considered fans of the game, because they don't even understand what is going on half of the time. The players could be playing baseball instead of football and half the crowd wouldn't even notice. Many people like sports for the social and psychological aspect, and that's it. Fan is such an overused word nowadays. A football fan is someone who studies the game, who would watch it even if nobody else was and could share the experience with nobody. The game is separate from the pomp and circumstance. No it isn't, it just isn't. Between the 2 extremes you describe there is a LAAAARGE grey zone, how do you call this people if not Fans? Everyone calls them Fans, they are Fans, no matter if you think thats right or not. Ok well, I have no particular attachment to the word. I'd be happy to call what I think of as fans by another name if you can give me one. I realize many people place a lot of importance on being a fan and I won't deny them it. Surely there is a term to describe Tyler's perspective to differentiate it from the casual viewers perspective? That is what language is for, right? People get so attached to language, its pretty stupid. You are what you are, whether someone calls you a fan or not a fan. Language is descriptive, it holds no power. Please don't go to the "words have no inherent meaning" argument. Nothing good can comes of it. On topic: Nony is a professional SC2 player that watches the game from another perspective then your avarage SC2 viewer. I would hesitate to call him a fan at all, as being a fan usually means to have a passionate connection to something external of your life. But then again that is just my attempt at a definition. In any case I take it we can agree that his perspective on the game is inherently different to somebody not making a living of the game. Leaving Nony out of it you could argue that there are (at least) two kind of fans we're talking about: Fans of SC2 the (E)sport and fans of SC2 the game. One group values classical sports stuff (storylines, personality, us vs. them (Koreans vs white dudes for example)) while the other group values the pure gameplay and strategy higher. Either group calling the other group out for not being "true fans" is at best childish. Both are fans of SC2, they just have diffent priorities and derive their enjoyment from different aspeczs of the game. I agree with you. I was trying to express that some people are fans of SC2 (the game) while others are fans of.. something, but (the game) is a relatively smaller part of it. Call it E-Sports I guess. Like I said, being a 'fan' is like a badge of honor in the sports scene, and so it no longer fills its role as simply descriptive. I'm happy to ditch the term, but I was just trying to express that their is a distinction there, and many people try and pretend that there isn't. I come from a unique position to e-sports because I have never been interested or drawn into traditional sports. I am not drawn to the typical underdog storyline or any of the tropes that traditional sports fans go wild over. I watch the game and follow the scene, but I am primarily motivated by the game itself and not the storylines. I understand the psychology of tribal politics and how it has adapted to group sports. I understand it but I do not like it or promote it.
Agreed then. Aficionado of SC2 gameplay like different things then fans of SC2 Esports. One group calling the other out over who's love is more pure is not helpful.
Also: Yay, reasoned discourse!
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I don't agree with this idea that the bigger fan you are the more you only care about seeing high level play and nothing else.
Imagine if that was the case in other sports, what would you just stop following your team once they start loosing, jumping around only watching the best at the time?
I dont think following players or teams, feeling thier losses and enjoying their wins instead of just following faceless "high level play" makes you any less of a hardcore fan, if anything more so and definately is more important to the scene to have these kinds of fans.
I think following a particular player, seeing them win and loose, develop thier play etc is just as interesting as watching gosu korean alpha b play perfectly.
Yeah guess what i enjoyed watching Thorzain win dreamhack alot more than whatever the hell happened at mlg, could barely even follow that thing.. guess im a noooby casssh
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So when is the next SotG?
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^ I'd like to know this aswell
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On April 24 2012 18:44 -Archangel- wrote:
So when is the next SotG?
Earlier in the thread (in the middle of this... I dunno what to call this discussion going on...) thursday was mentioned as pretty likely.
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On April 24 2012 19:10 Lt.Roosevelt wrote:Earlier in the thread (in the middle of this... I dunno what to call this discussion going on...) thursday was mentioned as pretty likely.
Ah, tnx. I kind of lost the will to dig for it once I seen them going at each other about stuff unrelated to SotG.
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On April 24 2012 18:38 RedBack wrote:
I don't agree with this idea that the bigger fan you are the more you only care about seeing high level play and nothing else.
Imagine if that was the case in other sports, what would you just stop following your team once they start loosing, jumping around only watching the best at the time?
But Starcraft 2 isn't "other sports", and comparing it relentlessly to other sports as it was done in the last two pages won't make it any more comparable. It's a game, for the time being it's still watched mainly by its own playerbase (active or not), people who are inherently interested in the gameplay itself. This isn't the case with actual sports.
While I disagree with measuring of the fan dick size in terms of which fans are bigger or better fans, this isn't what Nony did at any point. This whole discussion escalated way out of control because people got upset that someone doesn't share the same criteria for how good a tournament was.
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On April 24 2012 17:46 msl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:29 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 17:19 Velr wrote:On April 24 2012 16:59 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 16:53 Kreb wrote:
If Im caring more about my own national (possibly rather scrappy) football league than La Liga in Spain, even though the quality is much lower, am I not a fan of football then? Maybe Im just a fan of bulgarians/swedes/belgians/americans/you name it?
Umm.. yeah. That is what I mean. I expect to get flamed by tons of sports fans, but its the same thing as the hordes of football 'fans' in the United States who go batshit crazy at the games and don't even understand the rules. They just like drinking beer and being part of a spectacle. It's all about being part of a tribe and rooting for it. It feels good. But they can't be considered fans of the game, because they don't even understand what is going on half of the time. The players could be playing baseball instead of football and half the crowd wouldn't even notice. Many people like sports for the social and psychological aspect, and that's it. Fan is such an overused word nowadays. A football fan is someone who studies the game, who would watch it even if nobody else was and could share the experience with nobody. The game is separate from the pomp and circumstance. No it isn't, it just isn't. Between the 2 extremes you describe there is a LAAAARGE grey zone, how do you call this people if not Fans? Everyone calls them Fans, they are Fans, no matter if you think thats right or not. Ok well, I have no particular attachment to the word. I'd be happy to call what I think of as fans by another name if you can give me one. I realize many people place a lot of importance on being a fan and I won't deny them it. Surely there is a term to describe Tyler's perspective to differentiate it from the casual viewers perspective? That is what language is for, right? People get so attached to language, its pretty stupid. You are what you are, whether someone calls you a fan or not a fan. Language is descriptive, it holds no power. Please don't go to the "words have no inherent meaning" argument. Nothing good can comes of it. On topic: Nony is a professional SC2 player that watches the game from another perspective then your avarage SC2 viewer. I would hesitate to call him a fan at all, as being a fan usually means to have a passionate connection to something external of your life. But then again that is just my attempt at a definition. In any case I take it we can agree that his perspective on the game is inherently different to somebody not making a living of the game. Leaving Nony out of it you could argue that there are (at least) two kind of fans we're talking about: Fans of SC2 the (E)sport and fans of SC2 the game. One group values classical sports stuff (storylines, personality, us vs. them (Koreans vs white dudes for example)) while the other group values the pure gameplay and strategy higher. Either group calling the other group out for not being "true fans" is at best childish. Both are fans of SC2, they just have diffent priorities and derive their enjoyment from different aspeczs of the game. Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 17:29 zefreak wrote:
edit: and yes it is. The game is separate from the environment that surrounds it. Was Starcraft not a game before crowds started watching it? Is rock paper scissors not a game because there aren't storylines and excitement?
Game = a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other EDIT myself: Since we're not arguing about what a game is, but rather what a fan is I don't quite see your point.
Man, i love good posts. So much angry trash that you read and sometimes people can just say the thing in the middle and go: you know what, both are fine.
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On April 24 2012 17:17 Chriscras wrote:
Thorzain and Polt would have been eaten alive in NY. DH was "entertaining," but no one can argue it was as high caliber as MKP, DRG, MC, etc.
Polt eats Protosses, so probably not.
Personally watching MarineKing in first person was what I spent the majority of the weekend doing. Those true first person (not just following in spectator mode, but showing mouse control etc.) streams were incredibly interesting to me. That content for me was too good by itself to be trumped by production quality, overlays, commentators etc. Thats no to say that DH was bad, it was an entertaining tournament. Why do we have to compare them to each other rather than just saying it was a good weekend for SC2? Also, why did they clash with each other like so many of these events tend to do, is there no communication between event organisers to prevent them clashing their dates? There was even some Day[9] after-hours gaming final on at the same time too. 3 big events, all on Twitch, all at the same time - why?
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Funny thing is if it was as black and white as Nony likes it to be, there would be no place for a player like him.
Cause what's the point of a player that is not even at the top of NA? The least competitive of the 3 regions.
He's actually 1 of the players surviving solely on these things that he seems to dislike.
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On April 24 2012 20:16 Talin wrote:
While I disagree with measuring of the fan dick size in terms of which fans are bigger or better fans, this isn't what Nony did at any point. This whole discussion escalated way out of control because people got upset that someone doesn't share the same criteria for how good a tournament was.
On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
You're right of course, Nony just implied that people that enjoy other aspects of the SC2 then him are not fans at all.
To clarify: I am myself not upset or angry at Nonys view, I think it's perfectly legititimate to prefer one tournament over the other. But it seems if you tell people they are not fans of something they clearly are passionate about just because they enjoy it in a different way then these people are going to be upset. So while I agree that dick measuring is not helpful, Nony shouldn't have implied that people who like DH better have no dick at all, to stay with that metaphor.
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as sad as it sound nony would hardly pass 2nd group stage of dreamhack.
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If fans would not love the story behind things and would only focus on the player skill and quality games players like Nony, idra, etc would never be mentioned again by anyone.
I guess it's good fans are not like that and get happy over "unimportant" aspects.
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On April 24 2012 21:31 msl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 20:16 Talin wrote:
While I disagree with measuring of the fan dick size in terms of which fans are bigger or better fans, this isn't what Nony did at any point. This whole discussion escalated way out of control because people got upset that someone doesn't share the same criteria for how good a tournament was. Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. You're right of course, Nony just implied that people that enjoy other aspects of the SC2 then him are not fans at all. To clarify: I am myself not upset or angry at Nonys view, I think it's perfectly legititimate to prefer one tournament over the other. But it seems if you tell people they are not fans of something they clearly are passionate about just because they enjoy it in a different way then these people are going to be upset. So while I agree that dick measuring is not helpful, Nony shouldn't have implied that people who like DH better have no dick at all, to stay with that metaphor.
That's a really wierd way to put it..
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EPT
