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On July 20 2010 09:42 cerebralz wrote:
Best race is terran imo due to the fact that they have the most hard counters and the most strategies you have to prepare for when facing them.
Tanks rape ground, thors rape light air, vikings rape heavy air, hellions rape anything light, marauders rape heavy. Ghosts rape toss and casters, ravens rape other terrans. reapers can be devastating early game in groups of 1 and 2. Both zerg and protoss have relatively soft counters for terran other than immortals vs. tanks/thors. Not saying the statistics will show this out, but on paper, most people will agree with this.
Immortals rape ANY armored period ( if you want to talk about hard counters ). Colossus rape any light ground ect.. you can do this all day. And tanks don't really rape any high HP units. I can't tell you how many times I've owned marine tank pushes with 1 thor, 1 ultra, or 1 Colossus.
Also, IDK if you just haven't played around in Unit Tester or played many games but Vikings get OWNED by Curropters AND muta's. Thors being the counter for Muta's doesn't always help you, it's not like muta's are the most mobile unit in the game or anything.
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On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics.
I don't really get this comment. You don't give what you consider 'statistics'.
This is a ranking of the top SC2 players though, and as you can see, the majority of the people use Terran:
http://sc2.vacau.com/sc2/index.php
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Probably because a lot of the top players acknowledge Terran as the manliest race to play, and nothing more.
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On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread.
yes but:
p and t vote her race at top and z as worst
z rate z as worst and t as top
because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is.
allways nice to have something to blame if you loose...
if t is so imba why are there z players?
just switch to t and win every single game....
What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games.
i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time...
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On July 20 2010 09:21 GreEny K wrote:
How can you even try to determine what the worst and best races are? Its all opinion based and depends on how you like to play and which race suits that way the best.
Erm, it's obviously in terms of balance, which isn't opinion. While we may be wrong at what race is "truly" OP or not, it doesn't mean one race isn't actually inherently OP.
Extreme example, Zerglings now do 50 dmg. Obviously Zerg is OP, no debating. It's just more subtle atm.On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players?
just switch to t and win every single game....
That is what is happening.
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@doomdash oh i agree with you. My point is that for the other races in my opinion takes a lot more skill to overcome the seeming advantage terran has by just showing up. In the long run it may or many not be shown to be true, but as what ive seen and played myself, it seems to be the case.
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Like IdrA said in the recent interview, zerg needs to be more massable. Its like this, you cannot expect to win vs a upgraded terran mech army with roaches and shit, you really need to outnumber the opponent and get good flanks.
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Should be easiest and hardest then the poles would be better.
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On July 20 2010 09:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:21 GreEny K wrote:
How can you even try to determine what the worst and best races are? Its all opinion based and depends on how you like to play and which race suits that way the best. Erm, it's obviously in terms of balance, which isn't opinion. While we may be wrong at what race is "truly" OP or not, it doesn't mean one race isn't actually inherently OP. Extreme example, Zerglings now do 50 dmg. Obviously Zerg is OP, no debating. It's just more subtle atm. Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players?
just switch to t and win every single game.... That is what is happening.
So time to train TvT ....
PS: see my edit
only direkt match stats could say something over balance nothing else....
if the feeling is t is overpowerd, everyone switch to t than you have more t and than the people say : OH SEE t is overpowerd because so many switch to t oO
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On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics.
Agreed, if the polls were changed to "Most fun" and "Least fun" then it wouldn't need any stats.
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On July 20 2010 09:54 cerebralz wrote:
@doomdash oh i agree with you. My point is that for the other races in my opinion takes a lot more skill to overcome the seeming advantage terran has by just showing up. In the long run it may or many not be shown to be true, but as what ive seen and played myself, it seems to be the case.
I don't agree. Z has always been the best race at least to me. That's in my own hands, AND when I play Terran on ladder. In the older patches before people started using roach to ultra I would have agreed the match needed some work. No, not so much.. def good for Z.
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Has anyone gathered statistics of Race vs. Race among Pros throughout beta? I would imagine that would be much more accurate data than we are getting here
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Terrans are a very straightforward race. They're very easy to understand as a beginner player. This is why there are so many Terrans and why so many players say "Oh, but I switched to Terran and I won all my games." Terran is a very easy race to pick up, but once you hit high platinum and diamond where mechanics alone won't win you games, their strategy is just as complex as the other races. In practice, I actually think Terran and Protoss are balanced.
Zerg is clearly imbalanced. They need a buff. There's few Zerg units that you makes you think "Damn that's OP." Terrans have their Siege Tanks/Marauders/Hellions, Protoss have their Colossi/Sentry/Void Rays. Zerg doesn't have anything super strong aside from Infestors. Starcraft has always been about having a balance between heavily overpowered units in all races. See Defiler/Science Vessel/High Templar. SC2 has taken away a lot of Zerg's core units and adding less effective replacements. They need to be buffed.
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On July 20 2010 09:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:21 GreEny K wrote:
How can you even try to determine what the worst and best races are? Its all opinion based and depends on how you like to play and which race suits that way the best. Erm, it's obviously in terms of balance, which isn't opinion. While we may be wrong at what race is "truly" OP or not, it doesn't mean one race isn't actually inherently OP. Extreme example, Zerglings now do 50 dmg. Obviously Zerg is OP, no debating. It's just more subtle atm. Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players?
just switch to t and win every single game.... That is what is happening.
I still disagree, just because a unit deals more damage doesn't make them amazing or invincible. Were tanks amazing in SC1? Yes, but a T1 unit such as zealots beat tanks pretty efficiently.
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200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject.
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On July 20 2010 09:49 HardcoreBilly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. I don't really get this comment. You don't give what you consider 'statistics'. This is a ranking of the top SC2 players though, and as you can see, the majority of the people use Terran: http://sc2.vacau.com/sc2/index.php
Here are the statistics for top 100 players in that list.
38(terran), 37 (protoss), 19 zerg, 6 random.
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On July 20 2010 10:02 synapse wrote:
200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject.
When has 200/200 not been the best ( for terran )? You have played SC1 right? Just look at the macro mechanics of Terran vs Z and P. I hope to god that they have the best 200/200 army considering they cant just instantly warp in units and build up larva like their counter parts.
I would also make the argument that a combo of broodlords, curropters, and ultras is pretty hard to beat. Now, obviously that is EXTREMELY situational but I think thats probably the best 200/200 army ATM.
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This is about the 30th thread like this and I smell imminent closure, but I guess I'll vent my opinions on the matter.
Late-game TvZ is horribly, horribly broken. I wouldn't say zerg is weak outright; ZvP is fair and early ZvT is ok. Large terran armies are perfectly suited to countering zerg units. Thors hard counter mutas (I know some would say otherwise), vikings hard counter broodlords, seige tanks decimate everything on the ground. What do these 3 specialized units have in common? Absurd range which allows them to cover for each other and eliminate the weaknesses they have individually.
Now, outright nerfing terran units or buffing zerg units is a bit problematic as, imo, ZvP and TvP are reasonably well-balanced. A solution can be found with a nerf that will only radically affect one matchup. The thor's anti-air attack should be nerfed, either by changing the 6+6 to a flat 8 (ish) or reducing the damage caused by splash (the former change might actually be a TvP asset). Thors would still do well vs mutas with backup, but wouldn't be able to fight them solo anymore. This would slightly increase the effectiveness of muta harass midgame (T still has options like marines, turrets, vikings) and force Terran to include more antiair in a mech army, decreasing the supply available for tanks. This added threat would help curb the ferocity of the mech ball without actually nerfing the tanks themselves.
Another problem the zerg has is with the sheer weakness of their 200/200 army. It can neither rival the firepower nor the durability of a terran army (yes, one can reinforce more quickly, but when each wave only kills a few terran units, this is often a lesson in futility) and it lacks the massive, swarmy feel the zerg are known for. A solution could be an upgrade from the hive costing, say, 300/300, and increasing the available supply cap by 50 (overlords would still be required, of course). This upgrade would strengthen the zerg's unique flavor, allow for skilled players to attempt massive flanks with their engorged army to actually have a shot at stopping maxed mech, but would still require a massive economy and increased unit control to keep those large numbers from bunching together. An alternative that would accomplish similar means would be decreasing the supply costs of certain units (most notably the roach).
Marauders and Seige Tanks still seem a bit op to me, but with better massing capabilities and greater air threats, these units could be worked around without direct stat nerfs.
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Some of you guys must not use ultras very much. If T is still on mech by the time you get ultras its damn near a free win.... even if they have marauder support. I mean, not on every map but a lot of the bigger ones its not hard to win this match up ( for me ). Ultras will change peoples minds, TLO is right, and IdrA sounded like he was coming around to this as well.
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On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players? just switch to t and win every single game.... What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games. i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time...
I did in the last two days of the beta. Was diamond 76 when switching to T. After playing the same Ps that I couldn't beat as Z I beat them with T and advanced to top 30 in my division. Besdies, there is already a thread showing Zs are in the minority now.
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EPT
