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Poll: Best RaceTerran (805) 70% Protoss (236) 20% Zerg (113) 10% 1154 total votes Your vote: Best Race (Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Zerg
Poll: Worst RaceZerg (695) 69% Protoss (177) 18% Terran (137) 14% 1009 total votes Your vote: Worst Race (Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Zerg
Yes, we know this game is balanced, blah blah blah. We know skill is truly, and of course luck, is truly what determines the winner. Hypothetically, there is no absolute build that can destroy everything. Unless you're Flash playing Terran metal.
Now that we got that out of the way, honestly which race do you think is the best, and the worst? I know this thread has been done before, but now that the beta is finally over and we've got a pretty good understanding of the game, I feel like this question should be be asked once again.
Take what I say with a grain of salt if you must, as I'm cognizant that I have no credentials:
My take on best: Protoss
It was actually a pretty close contest between Terran and Protoss in my mind, because Terran's MMM ball is pretty devastating and Tanks are obviously insane. However, MMM balls do not always work and is a lot less viable late game. Tanks are incredible, but they lack mobility and anti-air, which makes it not THAT good. Still almost too good, but not quite there to be broken.
Protoss however, has almost no flaws mid-to-late game it seems (as long as you have a good economy). Force field can be the difference between an epic battle of 200/200 supply of both players, to an absolute annihilation, favoring the Protoss players. Psionic storms, although not as good as it used to be, is still pretty damn good, especially if the opponent's army is all clumped up, or the opponent's workers are left undefended. I can go on, but I won't.
My take on the worst: Zerg
Zerg is great for macro. You can fast expand to your natural like no other. But what the Zerg excel in economy, it lacks in unit composition and variety. Typically, a Zerg will have a mixture of Roaches and Hydras and maybe 2 infestors mid/late game. While this can be strong, it is nothing special. Zerg is really a simple race, but that doesn't make a bad. But I still think it's the lesser of the three for now.
So yeah, that's just my opinion. What do you guy think?
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Best: Terran
Worst: Zerg
Imo, if you think any other way you're just fooling yourself. Toss are pretty good but it also takes a certain amount of skill to execute. Terran strategies are very strong and very easy to pull off.
I'm a Terran player.
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Most are probably going to see this as the strongest vs the weakest and right now Terran is dominating and Zerg is not for a number of reasons. These reasons mean that while I agree the greater majority of the game is balanced, it is not entirely balanced. It's no easy task that's for sure and I don't envy the people in charge of that.
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I'm pretty horrible with all the races...but..I fail the most with zerg.
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How can you even try to determine what the worst and best races are? Its all opinion based and depends on how you like to play and which race suits that way the best.
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If you made a pie-chart of race effectiveness, even if it was 34-33-32, there would still be a strongest and a weakest race. There's a hidden question missing from your polls: "Do you think there is glaring imbalance amongst the races?" I think mostly the answer is no, TvZ not withstanding. Still, I voted for T strongest due to variety of available options and Z as weakest just due to the weakness of 200/200 army relative to P and T.
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as this thread has been done to death, I'll give my same answer.
best: terran
worst: zerg
my race: zerg
I feel Zerg is pretty damn good, just because they are 'the worst' doesn't mean 'they suck.' The only reason I gave them my 'worst' vote is because well.. T is insane. Z/P are pretty comprable ZvP is very balanced, Z struggles vs. T, and P doesn't struggle quite as much vs T so therefore Z is worst.
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Sweden187 Posts
On July 20 2010 09:21 GreEny K wrote:
How can you even try to determine what the worst and best races are? Its all opinion based and depends on how you like to play and which race suits that way the best.
Word. I'm refrasing the question to "The Prefered and Unprefered Race" before i answer.
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I think Zerg is the least fun to play as far as options go, but I love the mechanics.
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Its all going to change with the expansion packs. This is the Terran game so they have a bunch of units, then zerg will get some, and then finally protoss.
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The best race right now IS TERRAN. I do not think many will say otherwise
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I'm not sure if this is true and the game is very young, but I think it was TesteR who said if the pros from BW switched over to SC2 right now, there would be no stopping Terrans.
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What's best and worst seems largely based on the individual players styles and preference. I get a kick out of playing Terran personally because I feel Terran benefit much more than Zerg or Protoss from good micro.
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Best: Terran
My single argument for Terran being the best is that in my eyes they are the most versatile. They are able to use a wide variety of drops & tactics to supplement their strategies and keep the harass up while still having the strongest defense of all the 3 races.
Worst: Zerg
Zerg does come off as very simple. With their buildings the easiest to scout of all the 3 races (difficult to hide a tech building on creep away from a base), there isn't too much in the form of trickery that the Zerg can muster. If you see a Spire go up mid-game, you can bet that Mutalisk will be coming out and it could be extremely bad for the Zerg to not get full usage of those Mutas.
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Best: Zerg
Easiest for me to win with. Winning with Terran is just harder.
Worst: Terran
Hardest for me to win with. I love them but they are hard to play.
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won't participate in this poll, because i'm not good enough to comment on the balance when both players are high skilled.
one thing i would like to say about the "terran is too strong" hypothesis is that i do think that all 3 races have viable options to deal with terran and mech.
but i also do believe that all my zerg options require a more refined play than my terran opponent needs to set up his mech play. doing a perfect timed attack with your ground army while carpet bombing the terran with your overlords and banelings maybe requires more refinement than the average silver/gold player has.
i'm not complaining about this because you can't balance a strategy game for all different levels of player skill and i believe that once the top players play more games they will find ways to deal with terran mech easily.
the only thing that i, as a zerg player, am a little bit jealous about is the wealth of viable options terran player have if they want to play aggressive. Reapers, banshees and hellions are just fun units with great harassing potential and if you add 3-4 siege tanks at your natural your enemy can't punish you that easily for being aggressive.
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Best race is terran imo due to the fact that they have the most hard counters and the most strategies you have to prepare for when facing them.
Tanks rape ground, thors rape light air, vikings rape heavy air, hellions rape anything light, marauders rape heavy. Ghosts rape toss and casters, ravens rape other terrans. reapers can be devastating early game in groups of 1 and 2. Both zerg and protoss have relatively soft counters for terran other than immortals vs. tanks/thors. Not saying the statistics will show this out, but on paper, most people will agree with this.
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I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics.
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On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics.
Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst.
Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread.
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On July 20 2010 09:42 cerebralz wrote:
Best race is terran imo due to the fact that they have the most hard counters and the most strategies you have to prepare for when facing them.
Tanks rape ground, thors rape light air, vikings rape heavy air, hellions rape anything light, marauders rape heavy. Ghosts rape toss and casters, ravens rape other terrans. reapers can be devastating early game in groups of 1 and 2. Both zerg and protoss have relatively soft counters for terran other than immortals vs. tanks/thors. Not saying the statistics will show this out, but on paper, most people will agree with this.
Immortals rape ANY armored period ( if you want to talk about hard counters ). Colossus rape any light ground ect.. you can do this all day. And tanks don't really rape any high HP units. I can't tell you how many times I've owned marine tank pushes with 1 thor, 1 ultra, or 1 Colossus.
Also, IDK if you just haven't played around in Unit Tester or played many games but Vikings get OWNED by Curropters AND muta's. Thors being the counter for Muta's doesn't always help you, it's not like muta's are the most mobile unit in the game or anything.
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On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics.
I don't really get this comment. You don't give what you consider 'statistics'.
This is a ranking of the top SC2 players though, and as you can see, the majority of the people use Terran:
http://sc2.vacau.com/sc2/index.php
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Probably because a lot of the top players acknowledge Terran as the manliest race to play, and nothing more.
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On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread.
yes but:
p and t vote her race at top and z as worst
z rate z as worst and t as top
because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is.
allways nice to have something to blame if you loose...
if t is so imba why are there z players?
just switch to t and win every single game....
What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games.
i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time...
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On July 20 2010 09:21 GreEny K wrote:
How can you even try to determine what the worst and best races are? Its all opinion based and depends on how you like to play and which race suits that way the best.
Erm, it's obviously in terms of balance, which isn't opinion. While we may be wrong at what race is "truly" OP or not, it doesn't mean one race isn't actually inherently OP.
Extreme example, Zerglings now do 50 dmg. Obviously Zerg is OP, no debating. It's just more subtle atm.On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players?
just switch to t and win every single game....
That is what is happening.
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@doomdash oh i agree with you. My point is that for the other races in my opinion takes a lot more skill to overcome the seeming advantage terran has by just showing up. In the long run it may or many not be shown to be true, but as what ive seen and played myself, it seems to be the case.
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Like IdrA said in the recent interview, zerg needs to be more massable. Its like this, you cannot expect to win vs a upgraded terran mech army with roaches and shit, you really need to outnumber the opponent and get good flanks.
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Should be easiest and hardest then the poles would be better.
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On July 20 2010 09:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:21 GreEny K wrote:
How can you even try to determine what the worst and best races are? Its all opinion based and depends on how you like to play and which race suits that way the best. Erm, it's obviously in terms of balance, which isn't opinion. While we may be wrong at what race is "truly" OP or not, it doesn't mean one race isn't actually inherently OP. Extreme example, Zerglings now do 50 dmg. Obviously Zerg is OP, no debating. It's just more subtle atm. Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players?
just switch to t and win every single game.... That is what is happening.
So time to train TvT ....
PS: see my edit
only direkt match stats could say something over balance nothing else....
if the feeling is t is overpowerd, everyone switch to t than you have more t and than the people say : OH SEE t is overpowerd because so many switch to t oO
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On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics.
Agreed, if the polls were changed to "Most fun" and "Least fun" then it wouldn't need any stats.
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On July 20 2010 09:54 cerebralz wrote:
@doomdash oh i agree with you. My point is that for the other races in my opinion takes a lot more skill to overcome the seeming advantage terran has by just showing up. In the long run it may or many not be shown to be true, but as what ive seen and played myself, it seems to be the case.
I don't agree. Z has always been the best race at least to me. That's in my own hands, AND when I play Terran on ladder. In the older patches before people started using roach to ultra I would have agreed the match needed some work. No, not so much.. def good for Z.
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Has anyone gathered statistics of Race vs. Race among Pros throughout beta? I would imagine that would be much more accurate data than we are getting here
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Terrans are a very straightforward race. They're very easy to understand as a beginner player. This is why there are so many Terrans and why so many players say "Oh, but I switched to Terran and I won all my games." Terran is a very easy race to pick up, but once you hit high platinum and diamond where mechanics alone won't win you games, their strategy is just as complex as the other races. In practice, I actually think Terran and Protoss are balanced.
Zerg is clearly imbalanced. They need a buff. There's few Zerg units that you makes you think "Damn that's OP." Terrans have their Siege Tanks/Marauders/Hellions, Protoss have their Colossi/Sentry/Void Rays. Zerg doesn't have anything super strong aside from Infestors. Starcraft has always been about having a balance between heavily overpowered units in all races. See Defiler/Science Vessel/High Templar. SC2 has taken away a lot of Zerg's core units and adding less effective replacements. They need to be buffed.
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On July 20 2010 09:52 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:21 GreEny K wrote:
How can you even try to determine what the worst and best races are? Its all opinion based and depends on how you like to play and which race suits that way the best. Erm, it's obviously in terms of balance, which isn't opinion. While we may be wrong at what race is "truly" OP or not, it doesn't mean one race isn't actually inherently OP. Extreme example, Zerglings now do 50 dmg. Obviously Zerg is OP, no debating. It's just more subtle atm. Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players?
just switch to t and win every single game.... That is what is happening.
I still disagree, just because a unit deals more damage doesn't make them amazing or invincible. Were tanks amazing in SC1? Yes, but a T1 unit such as zealots beat tanks pretty efficiently.
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200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject.
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On July 20 2010 09:49 HardcoreBilly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. I don't really get this comment. You don't give what you consider 'statistics'. This is a ranking of the top SC2 players though, and as you can see, the majority of the people use Terran: http://sc2.vacau.com/sc2/index.php
Here are the statistics for top 100 players in that list.
38(terran), 37 (protoss), 19 zerg, 6 random.
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On July 20 2010 10:02 synapse wrote:
200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject.
When has 200/200 not been the best ( for terran )? You have played SC1 right? Just look at the macro mechanics of Terran vs Z and P. I hope to god that they have the best 200/200 army considering they cant just instantly warp in units and build up larva like their counter parts.
I would also make the argument that a combo of broodlords, curropters, and ultras is pretty hard to beat. Now, obviously that is EXTREMELY situational but I think thats probably the best 200/200 army ATM.
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This is about the 30th thread like this and I smell imminent closure, but I guess I'll vent my opinions on the matter.
Late-game TvZ is horribly, horribly broken. I wouldn't say zerg is weak outright; ZvP is fair and early ZvT is ok. Large terran armies are perfectly suited to countering zerg units. Thors hard counter mutas (I know some would say otherwise), vikings hard counter broodlords, seige tanks decimate everything on the ground. What do these 3 specialized units have in common? Absurd range which allows them to cover for each other and eliminate the weaknesses they have individually.
Now, outright nerfing terran units or buffing zerg units is a bit problematic as, imo, ZvP and TvP are reasonably well-balanced. A solution can be found with a nerf that will only radically affect one matchup. The thor's anti-air attack should be nerfed, either by changing the 6+6 to a flat 8 (ish) or reducing the damage caused by splash (the former change might actually be a TvP asset). Thors would still do well vs mutas with backup, but wouldn't be able to fight them solo anymore. This would slightly increase the effectiveness of muta harass midgame (T still has options like marines, turrets, vikings) and force Terran to include more antiair in a mech army, decreasing the supply available for tanks. This added threat would help curb the ferocity of the mech ball without actually nerfing the tanks themselves.
Another problem the zerg has is with the sheer weakness of their 200/200 army. It can neither rival the firepower nor the durability of a terran army (yes, one can reinforce more quickly, but when each wave only kills a few terran units, this is often a lesson in futility) and it lacks the massive, swarmy feel the zerg are known for. A solution could be an upgrade from the hive costing, say, 300/300, and increasing the available supply cap by 50 (overlords would still be required, of course). This upgrade would strengthen the zerg's unique flavor, allow for skilled players to attempt massive flanks with their engorged army to actually have a shot at stopping maxed mech, but would still require a massive economy and increased unit control to keep those large numbers from bunching together. An alternative that would accomplish similar means would be decreasing the supply costs of certain units (most notably the roach).
Marauders and Seige Tanks still seem a bit op to me, but with better massing capabilities and greater air threats, these units could be worked around without direct stat nerfs.
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Some of you guys must not use ultras very much. If T is still on mech by the time you get ultras its damn near a free win.... even if they have marauder support. I mean, not on every map but a lot of the bigger ones its not hard to win this match up ( for me ). Ultras will change peoples minds, TLO is right, and IdrA sounded like he was coming around to this as well.
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On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players? just switch to t and win every single game.... What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games. i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time...
I did in the last two days of the beta. Was diamond 76 when switching to T. After playing the same Ps that I couldn't beat as Z I beat them with T and advanced to top 30 in my division. Besdies, there is already a thread showing Zs are in the minority now.
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with absolutely no changes to balance, this poll would be even in 2-3 years thats why Iam not gonna vote for this.
Zergs will start playing mutas more often and use their great dropcapabilities to win games instead of dying in a 200/200 supply fight.
No Iam not playing terran...
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On July 20 2010 10:05 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:02 synapse wrote:
200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject. I would also make the argument that a combo of broodlords, curropters, and ultras is pretty hard to beat. Now, obviously that is EXTREMELY situational but I think thats probably the best 200/200 army ATM.
What game mode are you playing? certainly not 1vs1..
How they hell do your zerg opponent get currupterrs/broodlords/ultras combo? BGH much?
And if one were to create the hypothetical "best army" then it would be 200/200 mass Thor/BC which is really common in 4v4/3v3. Not saying that is imbalanced because that never happens in solo, nor does your imaginary "corrupter/broodlord/ultra" combo.
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On July 20 2010 10:17 Latham wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players? just switch to t and win every single game.... What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games. i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time... I did in the last two days of the beta. Was diamond 76 when switching to T. After playing the same Ps that I couldn't beat as Z I beat them with T and advanced to top 30 in my division. Besdies, there is already a thread showing Zs are in the minority now.
I'm a Z player and I think other Z players are just whiners. Z is great... I don't understand whats wrong with people.
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On July 20 2010 10:19 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:05 DooMDash wrote:On July 20 2010 10:02 synapse wrote:
200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject. I would also make the argument that a combo of broodlords, curropters, and ultras is pretty hard to beat. Now, obviously that is EXTREMELY situational but I think thats probably the best 200/200 army ATM. What game mode are you playing? certainly not 1vs1.. How they hell do your zerg opponent get currupterrs/broodlords/ultras combo? BGH much? And if one were to create the hypothetical "best army" then it would be 200/200 mass Thor/BC which is really common in 4v4/3v3. Not saying that is imbalanced because that never happens in solo, nor does your imaginary "corrupter/broodlord/ultra" combo.
1v1 bro. I was just playing theory craft for a second. I didn't say it was realistic, did you read that part?
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I do feel like Z is the weakest race at this point. The race as a whole just seems very risky to play, as you will often be struggling to find a decent counter to whatever your opponent does that sets the pace. Also, it seems to be the race that's most in danger of going down to quite a lot of cheese
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I find all 3 races to be nearly equally strong. Some maps favor one or the other though.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On July 20 2010 10:21 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:19 Gunman_csz wrote:On July 20 2010 10:05 DooMDash wrote:On July 20 2010 10:02 synapse wrote:
200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject. I would also make the argument that a combo of broodlords, curropters, and ultras is pretty hard to beat. Now, obviously that is EXTREMELY situational but I think thats probably the best 200/200 army ATM. What game mode are you playing? certainly not 1vs1.. How they hell do your zerg opponent get currupterrs/broodlords/ultras combo? BGH much? And if one were to create the hypothetical "best army" then it would be 200/200 mass Thor/BC which is really common in 4v4/3v3. Not saying that is imbalanced because that never happens in solo, nor does your imaginary "corrupter/broodlord/ultra" combo. 1v1 bro. I was just playing theory craft for a second. I didn't say it was realistic, did you read that part?
Theorycraft, please tell me again in "theory" how a zerg is suppose to get that in that position. just stating any bs and labeling as "theorycraft" is not the way to debate.
Let me give you a suggestion, rather than your previous combo, I suggest you try this combo instead. "supperman,batman,corruptors".
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I think the biggest misconception when it comes to balancing and "OP" threads is that people confuse intuition with power. This is a new game and is young. I am BRAND new to RTS and i play Terran. Not because they are OP, but because they are more INTUITIVE to a BEGINNER. Just think about it for a second. If something is more intuitive (the mechanics) then they play will be better at the early stages of the games release. The terran mechanics are more intuitive NOT more powerful. I do not think the full potential of Zerg and Protoss have been realized even though there are pros practicing away. The game is not perfectly balanced. But too many beginners try zerg, get crushed, and switch to terran not not because zerg is weaker, its just harder to learn as a beginner.
But..maybe terran is overpowered. Im not a balancing expert. But i would like to think blizzard got it pretty close with all the testing. At least to the extent that Terran OP shoudlnt be shouted at the end of every game
Edit: quote directly related to post =p
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On July 20 2010 10:26 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:21 DooMDash wrote:On July 20 2010 10:19 Gunman_csz wrote:On July 20 2010 10:05 DooMDash wrote:On July 20 2010 10:02 synapse wrote:
200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject. I would also make the argument that a combo of broodlords, curropters, and ultras is pretty hard to beat. Now, obviously that is EXTREMELY situational but I think thats probably the best 200/200 army ATM. What game mode are you playing? certainly not 1vs1.. How they hell do your zerg opponent get currupterrs/broodlords/ultras combo? BGH much? And if one were to create the hypothetical "best army" then it would be 200/200 mass Thor/BC which is really common in 4v4/3v3. Not saying that is imbalanced because that never happens in solo, nor does your imaginary "corrupter/broodlord/ultra" combo. 1v1 bro. I was just playing theory craft for a second. I didn't say it was realistic, did you read that part? Theorycraft, please tell me again in "theory" how a zerg is suppose to get that in that position. just stating any bs and labeling as "theorycraft" is not the way to debate. Let me give you a suggestion, rather than your previous combo, I suggest you try this combo instead. "supperman,batman,corruptors".
OK anyway, I still think Z is the best even excluding theory craft.
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Zerg was my main race for the first phase of the beta but switched to Toss and Terran when it came back online.
I vote Zerg as the weakess for many reasons... number one would be the lack of anti air early game which can and will be exposed even more once the game gets released. Their early game units can't compete with Toss or Terran either... Lings and Roachs just dont stand a chance to MMM or Stalkers/Zeos and Sentries. They also have no variety with building placement like the other races (i.e blocking chokes, offense towering etc). I think building placement will become a bigger issue once the game goes live as well.
Terran are for sure the strongest race... best tier 1 unit in marines, best tier 2 ground unit in tanks and best tier 3 air unit in BC. They are also the most versatile race out there and can counter in a pintch. Also the hardest to crack defensively by far... 2 tanks on a ridge with site against a ground army hitting a choke is just messy.
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They have good units but incomparable macro mechanics.
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On July 20 2010 10:01 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:52 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 20 2010 09:21 GreEny K wrote:
How can you even try to determine what the worst and best races are? Its all opinion based and depends on how you like to play and which race suits that way the best. Erm, it's obviously in terms of balance, which isn't opinion. While we may be wrong at what race is "truly" OP or not, it doesn't mean one race isn't actually inherently OP. Extreme example, Zerglings now do 50 dmg. Obviously Zerg is OP, no debating. It's just more subtle atm. On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players?
just switch to t and win every single game.... That is what is happening. I still disagree, just because a unit deals more damage doesn't make them amazing or invincible. Were tanks amazing in SC1? Yes, but a T1 unit such as zealots beat tanks pretty efficiently.
If a Zergling did 50 dmg, yes, yes it would make them amazing/invincible. There's no arguing that point really. Mass Zergling would even rape mass colossus/tank.
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Lol such a reflection in the results here of the distribution of players online.
So here: Terran isn't the best race, it's the easiest. Oh you siege up and outrange god? 10x more difficult for any other player now immediately as long as the t has 1 thor in the mix. Oh yeah, Thors. AA slash all over your shit, damn.
Zerg aren't the worst race. It's relatively easy to get some BO's going and start macroing like a whore, but then you still get roflstomped by a meching T / A SINGLE COLOSSUS. So I see the point here. However there are those games when you get constantly harassed and then just raped by a decent Z. Zerg isn't "different" or "worse" than swarmy BW swarm. You don't have dark swarm no, shutup about it already. Zerg is still decent, but yes, quite difficult. Oh and macroing queens is the easiest thing anyone has ever had to do in a computer game, whether its through wireframes, a single control group of them all (the obvious choice) or separate control groups with each queen having a name and backstory, it's still easy.
Protoss: I'd say (IMO) the most fun race due to the differences and varied range of possible units. Even if some are crap cough fleetbeacon onwards. Voted down here probably because of the mass void terrible players.
Apologies, don't usually rant.
*I've gone from Protoss to Zerg to Protoss throughout beta, still dislike terran. It's too slow and clumpy.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On July 20 2010 09:39 DooMDash wrote:
Best: Zerg
Easiest for me to win with. Winning with Terran is just harder.
Worst: Terran
Hardest for me to win with. I love them but they are hard to play.
On July 20 2010 10:19 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:17 Latham wrote:On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players? just switch to t and win every single game.... What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games. i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time... I did in the last two days of the beta. Was diamond 76 when switching to T. After playing the same Ps that I couldn't beat as Z I beat them with T and advanced to top 30 in my division. Besdies, there is already a thread showing Zs are in the minority now. I'm a Z player and I think other Z players are just whiners. Z is great... I don't understand whats wrong with people.
I seriously don't get you. you state that you are a zerg player, and Terran is the hardest race for you to play with. Now Common sense dictates that you would obviously win more with main race than with your offrace right? Or are you now a disguised "cough" Terran player? who clearly can't tolerate all the terran hate, so you go out of your way to bombard such threads with multiple posts which don't make any sense.
I would accept what you said for truth if you were a random player, but no you are not, as you claim your main race is zerg, and it is sooo easy. Then may I suggest you something? Mind playing at your goddamn own level?
And this is not even the worst part to your spam worthy posts. all your posts have one similarity/ you are desperately trying to inject the notion that terran is an overly weak race.
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As a Zerg player I feel that Terran having both an insane ground splash unit (tank) and an insane air splash unit (thor) is ridiculous.
I would change:
Thor loses splash for air and maybe gets slight buff to single-target air damage.
Tank siege mode 45 dmg (from 50), range 11 (from 13) and deploy time 6 (from 3.5)
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All races are great, there is no best and worst in my opinion because both 3 races are fun to play, interesting and have a lot of different little things that makes them special.
I voted for Terran Best and Zerg worst, because of how easy it is for Terran to win its game compared to Zerg which is pretty skill heave. I think that zergs should be recompensed for all the efforts it takes to perform in par with terrans an protoss, and not be penalized, which is the case currently. Zerg just need some tweak to roachs or Terrans need a nerf, name you'r solution.
Either war, all the races are really great and the game will keep getting better and better with time.
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On July 20 2010 10:40 Tone_ wrote:
Lol such a reflection in the results here of the distribution of players online.
So here: Terran isn't the best race, it's the easiest. Oh you siege up and outrange god? 10x more difficult for any other player now immediately as long as the t has 1 thor in the mix. Oh yeah, Thors. AA slash all over your shit, damn.
Zerg aren't the worst race. It's relatively easy to get some BO's going and start macroing like a whore, but then you still get roflstomped by a meching T / A SINGLE COLOSSUS. So I see the point here. However there are those games when you get constantly harassed and then just raped by a decent Z. Zerg isn't "different" or "worse" than swarmy BW swarm. You don't have dark swarm no, shutup about it already. Zerg is still decent, but yes, quite difficult. Oh and macroing queens is the easiest thing anyone has ever had to do in a computer game, whether its through wireframes, a single control group of them all (the obvious choice) or separate control groups with each queen having a name and backstory, it's still easy.
Protoss: I'd say (IMO) the most fun race due to the differences and varied range of possible units. Even if some are crap cough fleetbeacon onwards. Voted down here probably because of the mass void terrible players.
Apologies, don't usually rant.
*I've gone from Protoss to Zerg to Protoss throughout beta, still dislike terran. It's too slow and clumpy.
It's nearly undeniably that while having the least strategic depth, spawn larvae is the most difficult mechanic to maintain, simply because if you forget ---> you lose it permanently. You forget to mule, you drop two. You forget to chrono, you chrono something else as well.
"Zerg isn't "different" or "worse" than swarmy BW swarm." If you think they aren't different you're utterly clueless. Zerg is now reliant on having slow units that don't swarm at all, in fact the only time you "swarm" is when you defend. Roaches/Hydra have no "swarmy" feeling, and ultras are massive and clunky as opposed to rapidly moving, which is also not swarmy. If you think they aren't OP or UP, that's fine, but to claim they aren't "different" in your rant is utterly ridiculous.
You also can't macro via wireframes, but please, continue your senseless rant in another post.
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On July 20 2010 10:45 Anfere wrote:
All races are great, there is no best and worst in my opinion because both 3 races are fun to play, interesting and have a lot of different little things that makes them special.
I voted for Terran Best and Zerg worst, because of how easy it is for Terran to win its game compared to Zerg which is pretty skill heave. I think that zergs should be recompensed for all the efforts it takes to perform in par with terrans an protoss, and not be penalized, which is the case currently. Zerg just need some tweak to roachs or Terrans need a nerf, name you'r solution.
Either war, all the races are really great and the game will keep getting better and better with time.
These are the exact reasons I voted Zerg best and Terran worst.
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Time to mabet start working on strats/timing/Bo's instead of make threads how bad/good your/others race are. Wont accomplish much, really. And if Terran is "to good" atm, they will balance it out or wait for people to find strats themselves. The game is not even out yet, so cannot really point and say that it's all that bad.
Give it time and it will fix itself or be patched lul ^^
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Remove the baneling and add the lurker, the zerg would be awesome again!
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You can't play TvZ and not feel very weak as Zerg.
Against Protoss or in Zerg Mirror, if i loose i can see my faults or a nice thing the opponent did that gave him the lead... i often don't have this feeling against Terran. It feels like, even though you knew what the opponent was going to do, you can't do anything effective against it.. so it's really frustrating...
I don't like to whine, but at this point, something really has to be done.
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Zerg, though it is my main race and always will be, is the worst race. The thing is, both terran and protoss have dedicated counters to most units. Zerg does not. Zerg has to rely on sheer numbers to overpower an army. Now, I know that can be true for all races, but I mean a protoss army could beat a zerg army twice its size with proper unit composition. Zerg can't do that, it really doesn't have as many counter units. The only unit Zerg units that were designed to be a hard counter to something are the corruptor (bonus vs massive), baneling (bonus vs light) and the ultralisk (bonus vs armored). The others simply don't have that. The roach has a base damage, plus nothing vs nothing. Same with the hydralisk, zergling, and mutalisk. Zerg can't rely on unit composition as much as the other 2 races. It's more crude, the way to win is, for the most part, with larger numbers and sheer brute force. You can get creative with infestors and overseers, but you still have to have a larger army. I feel that if zerg had a few more useful spells (all they really have now are fungal growth and contaminate, not even NP since it has such a short time limit now), it would really change the dynamics of zerg play, and it might not get an overwhelming 68% of votes for worst race.
Yet still, i love Zerg because I can macro hardcore like no other race can do, and even though it technically lacks in depth, when you start to get creative with your micro, it becomes a lot of fun.
The best race, on the other hand is terran. Though it's not overpowered, it's a brainlessly easy race. Move, siege, stim just about sums it up. Even though the race is "highly immobile", it makes up for it in the fact that 90% of terran units have an absurdly long attack range. Half it's units have >10 range, and neither zerg nor protoss have units that can fire from across the map like that.
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On July 20 2010 10:42 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:39 DooMDash wrote:
Best: Zerg
Easiest for me to win with. Winning with Terran is just harder.
Worst: Terran
Hardest for me to win with. I love them but they are hard to play. Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:19 DooMDash wrote:On July 20 2010 10:17 Latham wrote:On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players? just switch to t and win every single game.... What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games. i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time... I did in the last two days of the beta. Was diamond 76 when switching to T. After playing the same Ps that I couldn't beat as Z I beat them with T and advanced to top 30 in my division. Besdies, there is already a thread showing Zs are in the minority now. I'm a Z player and I think other Z players are just whiners. Z is great... I don't understand whats wrong with people. I don't get. you state that you are a zerg player, and Terran is the hardest race for you to play with. Now Common sense dictates that you would obviously win more with main race than with your offrace right? Or are you now a disguised "cough" Terran player? who clearly can't tolerate all the terran hate, so you go out of your way to bombard such threads with multiple posts which don't make any sense.
http://beta-us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1855/1/
"I'm a Z player" he said, lol
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Voted down here probably because of the mass void terrible players. Heavy void builds result in terrible players? Gee, Whitera must be Terrible with a capital T in all his PvT games. Anyways...
Best Race: Terran. By far. Plain and simple. They have incredible harass, incredible scouting, the most potent ground units by far (bio and tanks) and a range of disproportionately strong AA units (thor and viking). Their macro mechanic is also arguably the best of the three (mule) as it opens the door for all kinds of ridiculous openings without suffering too much on the economic end. To top it all off, planetary fortress; the single best anti harass structure in the game which is basically a 1500 hp siege tank that doesn't hurt your own units and is large enough to be team repaired by a dozen scvs.
Worst Race: Zerg. Again, by far. Their lack of true AA outside of queens, slow roaches, vulnerable zerglings and just generally weak T1 units usually results in Z being defeated within the first few minutes of the game. And by defeated I don't mean the Z player has typed "GG" and left the game, rather by defeated I mean that Z has suffered significant losses by 2 gate zealots, reapers, hellions, marine/tank, phoenix, banshee, or the dozens of other possible harass openings abused against Zerg that the Z player has no chance in actually making a comeback against a competent player. TvZ is probably one of the most broken match ups in the game and it's not really because Zerg is too weak, rather Terran is too strong. ZvP seems to generally be even minus a few complaints about muta/ling, but that has never been an explosive issue. At least not on the scale that TvZ has been for the last several weeks of beta. In my personal opinion, patch 12 broke Zerg. It made ZvT borderline impossible and ZvZ a frustrating mess consisting mostly of green goo and zergling organs spread all over the battlefield.
I will be switching to Protoss most likely come live. I played Zerg for the majority of beta and after the Best Buy chat which basically consisted of DB saying "Z and T are fine by our numbers" I've lost faith for the time being that Z will see any significant improvements or T any significant reductions in potency that would actually result in ZvZ or ZvT becoming a more enjoyable match up. I've found protoss to have plenty of tools and tactics at their disposal to deal with harassment and to dish out the harassment as well. They have a wide variety of openings and require a certain level of finesse to play effectively. I enjoy all the match ups to some degree. PvT can still be quite frustrating with the dreaded bio ball --> emp --> stim --> a click --> victory screen, but the different is that protoss can deal with it. If you lost to this, there was most likely something you could have done better to overcome your opponent. This is usually not the case with ZvT. I simply do not find Zerg enjoyable anymore. Not even a little bit. -_-
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even though i dont like terran because people will argue this but i do think tanks are overpowered especially early game the fact that they can just leap frog closer and closer and give good mapcontrol on 2s they lock down enemy bases or yourself forcing them to tech to handle the problem but thats why you got thors that tank or bio armys just sitting their when as zerg being my favourtie rave but i find zerg doesnt have many options in the early game that are OP and the only T2 unit that is good is the muta but it very expensive Hydras die to easy and are so slow ( a fail a enemy team did once was do a conter attack once our rush failed (2v2) and the protoss stalkers got their before the hydras so they got picked off easy then the hydras were alone too) to make hydras better id say is just make them faster so that i dont have to spend 10 minutes trying to spread creep all over I think of zerg as Cannon fodder
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On July 20 2010 11:04 InRaged wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:42 Gunman_csz wrote:On July 20 2010 09:39 DooMDash wrote:
Best: Zerg
Easiest for me to win with. Winning with Terran is just harder.
Worst: Terran
Hardest for me to win with. I love them but they are hard to play. On July 20 2010 10:19 DooMDash wrote:On July 20 2010 10:17 Latham wrote:On July 20 2010 09:51 skeldark wrote:On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread. yes but: p and t vote her race at top and z as worst z rate z as worst and t as top because now they think this pool shows how imba tvz is. allways nice to have something to blame if you loose... if t is so imba why are there z players? just switch to t and win every single game.... What we need is a direkt ZVT ZVP ..... stats of all beta games. i think blizzard have it and i think its near 50% or they would patch something last time... I did in the last two days of the beta. Was diamond 76 when switching to T. After playing the same Ps that I couldn't beat as Z I beat them with T and advanced to top 30 in my division. Besdies, there is already a thread showing Zs are in the minority now. I'm a Z player and I think other Z players are just whiners. Z is great... I don't understand whats wrong with people. I don't get. you state that you are a zerg player, and Terran is the hardest race for you to play with. Now Common sense dictates that you would obviously win more with main race than with your offrace right? Or are you now a disguised "cough" Terran player? who clearly can't tolerate all the terran hate, so you go out of your way to bombard such threads with multiple posts which don't make any sense. http://beta-us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1855/1/"I'm a Z player" he said, lol
Hahaha  , Nice find.
I bet you 100bucks that he won't respond to this thread anymore. Funny because he was on a role till I got to him.
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this is pointless and should be closed.
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I played zerg for a long time in beta. Then I dropped them for protoss. Generally weak units and that it doesn't fit with my playstyle anymore (waaaaaaaaay too methodical). I'm not quite sure. Got roflstomped by protoss and terran 200 food armies in one too many one-sided fights. Is the grass greener on the other? Hell yes.
I feel terran is the best. They have a potential to completely decimate any army and lose little. Mostly due to tanks. And when I play as them, if I don't die to a rush, they are pretty fun to play. Hard to do early agression as terran because marines don't start to pay off until you got a handful of them.
It's nearly undeniably that while having the least strategic depth, spawn larvae is the most difficult mechanic to maintain, simply because if you forget ---> you lose it permanently. You forget to mule, you drop two. You forget to chrono, you chrono something else as well.
Difficult for a human. Simple to have some kind of timer running in the background to remind you every 40 seconds. Not hard to make a script for that. But why do that when you can just not play as zerg?
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@OP I know you don't play Zerg, but why would you go for roach hydra? That's just asking to die to tanks. That's like building only immortals against lings.
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On July 20 2010 10:44 ta2 wrote:
As a Zerg player I feel that Terran having both an insane ground splash unit (tank) and an insane air splash unit (thor) is ridiculous.
I would change:
Thor loses splash for air and maybe gets slight buff to single-target air damage.
Tank siege mode 45 dmg (from 50), range 11 (from 13) and deploy time 6 (from 3.5)
But then that would imbalance TvP. In a lot of situations, Terrans are dependent on tanks to hold off protoss aggression. Also, nerfing the thor too much would mean Terrans would have problems holding off mutas. They have marines, but the mutas outrun even stimmed marines. Also, Mech is supposed to be absurdly strong. Instead of 1aing into it, use Zerg mobility in Drops and Nydus Worms to force him to choose between assaulting your base and saving his.
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rofl so predictable... Terran players clinging to their every super-effective units like a fat kid to cake.
Not in the least bit interested in a balanced game, just in making sure they stay on easymode.
hahahahaha
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On July 20 2010 10:05 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:02 synapse wrote:
200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject. When has 200/200 not been the best ( for terran )? You have played SC1 right? Just look at the macro mechanics of Terran vs Z and P. I hope to god that they have the best 200/200 army considering they cant just instantly warp in units and build up larva like their counter parts. I would also make the argument that a combo of broodlords, curropters, and ultras is pretty hard to beat. Now, obviously that is EXTREMELY situational but I think thats probably the best 200/200 army ATM.
The OP mentions that 200/200 Protoss is very strong, or something. I'm merely disagreeing.
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I am very disapointed in zerg for sc2, it doesnt seem any different to sc1, think about it what is only difference roach and infestor and baneling, which baneling replaces lurker apparently but lacks the stealth ability lurker had and the containing and defensive capability lurker had basically a sucide unit which uses gas reduces your overall mid game army, sure they are effective in situational positions but mostly banelings can be dealth with if scouted easily.
Broodlords basically just guardians with different effect of firing, corruptors basically just devours and arnt as effective, infestors replace defilers and queens and imo defilers and queens were more useful, imo that overseer ability to make a illusion of a unit is usless give them parasite that queens had in sc1 so that zerg has a ability to see what oponents doing without having to sucide overlords all game lol.
The worm is nothing but a nexus canal, basically zerg has nothing new worth mentioning and really needed some inspirational unit or units like toss and terran got. I feel that blizzard put no effort into zerg at all and its true that zerg doesnt feel as horde as it did in sc1, the macro is only fun part to them infact collosus anilate roach/hydra if supported by sentry and stalker and you only need 3-4 collosus.
voids anilate bases so fast that if caught of guard zerg cant even prevent it and voids and phoenixs both can beat corruptors and muta in a fight, then you have storm which anilates hydras and roachs and ling like no tomorrow and then you combine collosus with storm and basically hydras roachs lings become usless, people suggest go ultra vs a good toss they can micro the stalkers well enough to destroy the ultra and even collosus/immortal/void kill ultras so fast it not funny, it is situational and fact that zerg are so slow of creep makes zerg a hassle to play and more defense now than offensive.
Now lets look at terran, terran can destroy zerg with just bio np, only counter would be a insane amount of upgraded banelings with speed, roachs and hydra will both get owned to maurder marine medivacs, you wouldnt even need tanks throw in a few tanks and roachs got no chance, now some people might think ultras kill bio terran but they dont maurders actually kill ultras quite fast as well and the slowing allows for micro easily, you can also have few tanks or thors and ultras become usless as well. Now terran has alot mobilitys if people start to use dropships to carry the tanks around instead of just having tanks slow down the movement of the bio, viking good for harashing overlords and banshee with cloak can easily be used to harash, reapers not such a problem now since nefs but where a pain before, emp > infestors, hunter missles destroys groups of anything like no tomorrow, point defense counter all zerg ranged combined with terran bio and even turrents can be deadly so hence in conclusion.
Zerg players who are doing well at present are extremely skilled more so than any toss or terran who beats them so I respect any of the top zerg players because it takes so much more work to win than it does for other two races.
with warp gates protoss are able to quickly reforce to any position a plyon is placed, hence zerg has lost there ability to be fastest reforcing race in game, terran is slower but is capable to reforce but not as effective as protoss can 'instant units'. Remember zerg must wait for the extra larve if you think about it this way 10 gates of toss can produce simlar numbers than queens are producing on 3 base zerg on 2 base toss and 4 base zerg on 3 base toss. watch some reps and see how fast toss is able to reforce itself and look also at numbers zerg is producing same time it will be obvious now that warp gates have given toss a much easier production option.
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Zerg in SC2 is a clear downgrade from SC1 in terms of just about everything.
Every combat unit other than Zergling at 2+ supply lolol. Yeah ok Zerg it up bro, GL.
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I will give you a example of how powerful toss is I vsed my friend gab kjh he was zerg I only did 2 base protoss he had 4 base zerg, he had combination of hydra roach ling was trying for a macro approach but with small army of stalkers sentrys zealot collosus void I killed so many of his units that he actually ran out money to produce then it was easy to clean up after that. My point is this I cant beat his main race terran but ive beat his protoss and zerg a few times hes beat me alot more than ive beat him cause I have rsi so rely on mouse mostly to rest injury, but fact is that I know i won cause combination of units I used is extremely difficult for zerg to stop in a intensive game all im saying is that imo toss and terran can do so much more damage than zerg can cause of tanks/collosus mostly.
I cant beat him when he uses terran at all, hes actually one the best players he choked in the tourney in semi finals lost to cheese basically but his one the best macro gamers there is, he can take over a map like no tomorrow if people dont get a sucessful cheese on him. Point is zerg is the worst clearly and terran is clearly the best then toss.
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here's a few more points to reinforce that T is easiest to play/win, Z takes mad skill, and P is by far the coolest (does warping in make you hot too?). this is from a plat random player who's kind of nab but racked up 100+ 1v1 and 100+ team/ffa games in phase 1 and 2.
early defense
T and P can wall-in and slack on scouting until later. Z has to be constantly vigilant of scouting to not get rolled. Z has the best 'farms' and gets great early map control. however if they lose map control, they will probably lose because they can't charge in blindly like T or P
pumping units
Z has to expand or create a 2nd hatch, otherwise he will have shite ability to create units. T and P can create juiced armies on 1 turtled base. zerg expos are easy to scout, because the creep.
defensive structures
T's towers rape air, planetary fortress is phat (they forgot to add that it's supposed to lift off and attack air also)
P's towers give you comfort like diapers
Z has to choose how he think he will get raped. fortunately he can reposition his towers after spending too much on them.
units
T has the best units in the game. Thor with 250mm is best ground unit, BC with yomomma cannon is best air. marines/hellions are the best unit mineral sink.
colossus are the coolest unit in the game.
broodlords are good in principle, but suck in practice. air to air rapes them so fast. only if they shot out banelings, i would use them instead of ultras. and ultras are fat and cause pathfinding woes.
T has MMM which is the most straightforward combination ever and can take you to high level diamond. stim is a no-brainer that makes your units like %50 better. many players finish researching it, push out, and press 1, a, t, to win. can zerg and protoss get stim also?
P's tier 1 warpgate units are the definition of balance: melee, ranged, support. warpgates/prisms are super freakin cool. forcefields win games.
Z's tier 1 units = death by 1 banshee or voidray. banelings which can be amazing, also take incredible skill to use if you're plan is not to just bust some depots or sacrifice them to ranged attacks.
maps
a lot of maps are great for T (ledges, cliffs, islands) and suck balls for zerg (chokes, enclosed spaces). the worst being (s)crap station and kula's tank ravine.
bases
T's bases can turn into a giant gun or an orbital command that can juice minerals (on equal base count, T has highest income by far), scan (scouting/emergency), or unsupply block you. protoss get chronoboost which is pretty to look at. zerg get jack-all and instead have to spread creep and spawn larva, which eats up macro time for your average player who can't do 200 APM.
T will never lose in a base trade, especially on scrap station. Also if you suck at building placement, you can rearrange them later with T.
workers with a special ability
T's workers can repair their pimp units or defensive structures. queens won't make it far off creep, and are not auto heal, so its not even close. it'd be nice if we could sacrifice drones for HP or probes for shields.
EMP
because TvP was pretty balanced, blizz gave ghosts the ability to rape protoss, so once again humans could rule.
conclusion
but don't worry, Wings of Liberty was made to feature terrans. next chapter gives OP zerg units that shoot banelings, and last chapter protoss will be able to mass motherships that cloak each other and provide a new level of cloaking.
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On July 20 2010 09:46 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 09:45 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics. Its simple, everyone votes the race that they play for best, and zerg for worst. Just like they do every single time someone makes this thread.
haha jerk "zerg for worst"
my race: zerg
so i guess following your outline i would say
best: zerg
worst: zerg
but so far ive actually had more trouble with zvp than zvt. who knows maybe its my silly playstyle.
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On July 20 2010 11:25 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 10:05 DooMDash wrote:On July 20 2010 10:02 synapse wrote:
200/200 absolutely favors Terran. With siege tanks destroying pretty much all ground, marauders as meat shields, and thors/vikings for insanely good anti-air, a 200/200 mech ball will roll over ANY protoss army.
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject. When has 200/200 not been the best ( for terran )? You have played SC1 right? Just look at the macro mechanics of Terran vs Z and P. I hope to god that they have the best 200/200 army considering they cant just instantly warp in units and build up larva like their counter parts. I would also make the argument that a combo of broodlords, curropters, and ultras is pretty hard to beat. Now, obviously that is EXTREMELY situational but I think thats probably the best 200/200 army ATM. The OP mentions that 200/200 Protoss is very strong, or something. I'm merely disagreeing.
well it is situational it depends on what the 200/200 is vsing up against, clearly collosus own hydra correct and even roach when supported by sentry stalkers, but corruptors can beat collosus but phoenix void beat corruptor, so people basing it on the matchup not if like say toss forgets to have aa to counter corruptors, remember how fast that collosus can kill zergs ground you will lose alot before the corruptors kill them say the toss has 7-9 collosus rest a mix of stalkers sentry phoenix what you gonna do?
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Its a little disturbing just how extremely skewed this pole is .... has to count for something.
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On July 20 2010 12:06 Synk wrote:
Its a little disturbing just how extremely skewed this pole is .... has to count for something.
Do you mean the amount who agree zerg is worst? or do you mean the pole in general poles good for finding out opinions media uses it all the time.
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Protoss > Terran > Zerg
I feel quite sad for Zerg players. Watching IdrA vs TesteR. :,(
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i play terran the most, regardless of my race icon.
i agree with HubertFelix, post 18 (not sure how to quote)
"I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics."
terran is one of the most popular races, but that may be because most new players find help in their (human) relations. that is fine, but asking what race you play , and what race is the most powerful are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT QUESTIONS, jeez.
also, so many people have spammed this topic and created this post way too many times.
THE ANSWER ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE PEOPLE. PEOPLE LIKE TO THINK TERRAN IS THE BEST RACE! AND THAT ZERG, IS THE WORST. (if this seems like i am shouting it is because i am) people don't get that there were no terrans in the finals of the HD freakin' H. they just PUT the race they play the most and put zerg as worst.maybe people hate the overmind, idk. but put the race you think has the most power in these polls, not the one all you play the most, and zerg is NOT the worst race, the worst race is protoss!( althgough, admittedly liquid nazgul and white ra are good) the thining is, how can you say zerg is the worst when there are players like IdrA out there
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What the hell, why doesn't someone close this thread T_T
If there was really a problem with racial balance, Blizzard would see it from the massive game statistics they have.
How can you even think about imbalance so long as you are not an absolute top player... Everyone is just listening to (certain) Zergs whine their ass off.
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I play zerg and it is the most bland race by far. It might not be "worse" in the sense that you can't win games, but all the units are the same and there is nothing really different about SCII zerg from SC zerg except the sweet creep mechanic.
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Oh also every ZvT and ZvP I play is either me losing in 5, 8, or 11 minutes or a 30 minute game where I win.
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You do realize idra complained himself about it as well...
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The most powerful race is almost certainly zerg. The reason people are voting terran as strongest is probably because its so much easier to play so terran players are dominating right now, especially in tvz
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I just can't stand how on every live game with Zv*** it ALWAYS comes down to: Well that Z sucks he should have done _____ or ____ . This is just constant even when the best Z in the world r playing like IdrA, Dimaga and Sheth or w/e.
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On July 20 2010 12:17 BaaL` wrote:
If there was really a problem with racial balance, Blizzard would see it from the massive game statistics they have.
I have yet to see one convincing argument that some win/loss statistic would be able to show the kind of imbalance people are talking about. Since most games are matchmade in the middle ranks and since you can completely discount whatever goes on at the bottom, all you really have to look at is the top ranks. Even then, there's no reasonable cutoff to use, because every time someone wins a game because of imbalance it tries to find a better opponent for them. If 'skill' was perfectly measurable and an imbalanced raced provided a modifier to 'skill', then in the very long run the matchmaking system would approach 50/50 win/loss for every player except for the top player (being offline and playing few games will mean that this doesn't happen) so really there isn't much that can be done with widespread statistics unless they find that at some skill cutoff point it becomes impossible to win one matchup (few imbalances are actually that harsh).
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It's not that Zerg is super underpowered or bad, its just that its the least forgiving race.
If you drone up to much early game, its gg.
If you don't drone up enough early and can't get any good damage in with your initial roaches/lings/blings, its gg.
If you slack off with spawning your larvae and realize that you can't reinforce your army even though you have 2k minerals in the bank, its gg.
If you are playing P and suddenly under a lot of harass in your natural and your army is completely out of position, you can warp in units for instant back-up.
If your playing T and your whole ground army on the field gets destroyed by your opponents ground army, you can just set up a few tanks behind your wall-in and force your opponent back while you build up.
Zerg just doesn't have the cushion that the other races offer.
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I like it how so many claim zerg are the overall weakest class and yet they have dominated most tournaments plus the world cup , not to mention the best players are zerg atm like cool - dimaga - check etc
Fyi almost all koreans are zerg or terrans .
On the other hand pls enlight me what serious tournaments have protoss won lately ? all i see is protoss getting eliminated from the first rounds not to mention only a handfull of good players are toss , like tester and huk.
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On July 20 2010 12:26 TheAntZ wrote:
The most powerful race is almost certainly zerg. The reason people are voting terran as strongest is probably because its so much easier to play so terran players are dominating right now, especially in tvz
Not true
TERRAN: THE BEST ARMY
I voted Terran but not because its the easiest to play...because their army is complete.
The air units are great, Vikings for AA are amazing, Banshees + cloak are strong and fast, BTs are BTs, Ravens are a great support unit, Medivac works so well with M&M ball
On the ground, they have Reapers which are amazing for harrass, M&M ball is very good especially with Stim and Concussive being cheap and available. Tanks are fast & great, Thor is a monster with his splash
Not to mention all the little extras that get be researched with each unit, Stim, Concussive, cloak, EMP, Siege, 250 mm canon, Auto turret, PDD, Seeker missile, etc
Even their main building, the CC can be a strong defense with the PF or get you scouting info from the comfort of your base.
I just find Terran to have a good army that compliments itself
PROTOSS: THE WEAKEST ARMY
Not gonna bother writing when someone already did it so well
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128071
On a side note: ZERG
I don't think it has the weakest army. it compliments itself, similar to terran (not as much for sure and it does need work)
Roachs are very strong in early game and even in Mid-Late game against Thors or Siege Tanks. Their moving while burrowed is amazing too. Hydras are great period. Mutas are great for harrass. Yes Ultralisks need work but as a T3 unit, Broodlords are beasts. And the Infestor are most probably the coolest unit in the game.
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When I play against noobs, I play Zerg.
When I play against pros I play Protoss or Terran.
Zerg is just too weak..... Their strategies are simple, predictable, and easily scouted/countered. They are the most easy to scout because of the creep. They have very limited cheese strats. And they are the race that is the most vunerable to cheese.
When armies are massed, Zerg players have a much weaker army.
When I play Zerg, even when I have gained a huge advantage early in the game I can still loose. When I play terran, once my opponent has given me the upperhand I am almost guareenteed to win. That's how tough it is to play Zerg.
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I have a feeling Zerg is considered the best race on the Korean server..
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On July 20 2010 12:15 Thoreezhea wrote:
i play terran the most, regardless of my race icon.
i agree with HubertFelix, post 18 (not sure how to quote)
"I don't really get the utility of this kind of topic. You don't even give statistics."
terran is one of the most popular races, but that may be because most new players find help in their (human) relations. that is fine, but asking what race you play , and what race is the most powerful are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT QUESTIONS, jeez.
also, so many people have spammed this topic and created this post way too many times.
THE ANSWER ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE PEOPLE. PEOPLE LIKE TO THINK TERRAN IS THE BEST RACE! AND THAT ZERG, IS THE WORST. (if this seems like i am shouting it is because i am) people don't get that there were no terrans in the finals of the HD freakin' H. they just PUT the race they play the most and put zerg as worst.maybe people hate the overmind, idk. but put the race you think has the most power in these polls, not the one all you play the most, and zerg is NOT the worst race, the worst race is protoss!( althgough, admittedly liquid nazgul and white ra are good) the thining is, how can you say zerg is the worst when there are players like IdrA out there
It actually did change. At the (near) begining of the beta most people agreed that zerg was the most powerful race before the roach nerf. Because of this the majority of korean players mained zerg and it filled the ladders, but now the top of their ladder is covered with terran.
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Came into this topic expecting these exact poll results.
Wasn't disappointed.
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Zerg is by far the hardest race to play, and Protoss is the easiest race to play.
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On July 20 2010 09:24 crms wrote:
as this thread has been done to death, I'll give my same answer.
best: terran
worst: zerg
my race: zerg
I feel Zerg is pretty damn good, just because they are 'the worst' doesn't mean 'they suck.' The only reason I gave them my 'worst' vote is because well.. T is insane. Z/P are pretty comprable ZvP is very balanced, Z struggles vs. T, and P doesn't struggle quite as much vs T so therefore Z is worst.
it is nice knowing that others also can see that the ZvT matchup is a uphill battle for Z. I thought I was just a minority whining but it seems like a lot of others think this as well. but can blizz fix this?
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On July 20 2010 12:47 st3roids wrote:
I like it how so many claim zerg are the overall weakest class and yet they have dominated most tournaments plus the world cup , not to mention the best players are zerg atm like cool - dimaga - check etc
Fyi almost all koreans are zerg or terrans .
On the other hand pls enlight me what serious tournaments have protoss won lately ? all i see is protoss getting eliminated from the first rounds not to mention only a handfull of good players are toss , like tester and huk.
Yet you dont realize it not the race it the player the top zerg players are so good if they played any race from begining would still be top player. Point people telling you is in general they are not as strong as toss and protoss because lact variability and also less forgiving.
The tourney results are not what you should base it on you should realize how much more work it is for those zerg players to win and how much better they are than the oponents they beat. I have alot respect for the top zerg players and very little for Terran and Toss at present.
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well terran is obviously op
i'd have to say asian zergs are just another breed of humans, i have no idea how they manage to do what they do. not really sure if z or p is weaker, think we'll have to wait
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The results of this poll say it all.
Seriously, playing Zerg makes me want to switch races.
It's just so much more difficult than it should be 
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Voted Terran for the best, they're just so versatile compared to the other races.
Zerg got my vote for worst, but while the margin is there, I don't think it's too huge. I think that perhaps people need more time to explore what Zerg is capable of.
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On July 20 2010 12:49 Kindred wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 12:26 TheAntZ wrote:
The most powerful race is almost certainly zerg. The reason people are voting terran as strongest is probably because its so much easier to play so terran players are dominating right now, especially in tvz Not true TERRAN: THE BEST ARMYI voted Terran but not because its the easiest to play...because their army is complete. The air units are great, Vikings for AA are amazing, Banshees + cloak are strong and fast, BTs are BTs, Ravens are a great support unit, Medivac works so well with M&M ball On the ground, they have Reapers which are amazing for harrass, M&M ball is very good especially with Stim and Concussive being cheap and available. Tanks are fast & great, Thor is a monster with his splash Not to mention all the little extras that get be researched with each unit, Stim, Concussive, cloak, EMP, Siege, 250 mm canon, Auto turret, PDD, Seeker missile, etc Even their main building, the CC can be a strong defense with the PF or get you scouting info from the comfort of your base. I just find Terran to have a good army that compliments itself PROTOSS: THE WEAKEST ARMYNot gonna bother writing when someone already did it so well http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128071On a side note: ZERGI don't think it has the weakest army. it compliments itself, similar to terran (not as much for sure and it does need work) Roachs are very strong in early game and even in Mid-Late game against Thors or Siege Tanks. Their moving while burrowed is amazing too. Hydras are great period. Mutas are great for harrass. Yes Ultralisks need work but as a T3 unit, Broodlords are beasts. And the Infestor are most probably the coolest unit in the game.
Good points, definitely. In my experience Terran felt both complete and easier to play than zerg, thats why I said what I did. I do like zerg much more though, with zerg its basically "survive until you win" kind of playstyle, which I think suits zerg well, fits the swarmy feeling. Weak at first, but if you can hold off the first few attacks (which you are given the tools to do) and survive till lategame, the game swings in your favor, and it becomes the zergs game to lose
Like I said I feel that even if people say zerg feels 'incomplete', I feel it has already been given the tools to be able to survive against the other races till it reaches critical macro capability, perhaps im wrong here and they could still use a boost.
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On July 20 2010 13:24 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 12:49 Kindred wrote:On July 20 2010 12:26 TheAntZ wrote:
The most powerful race is almost certainly zerg. The reason people are voting terran as strongest is probably because its so much easier to play so terran players are dominating right now, especially in tvz Not true TERRAN: THE BEST ARMYI voted Terran but not because its the easiest to play...because their army is complete. The air units are great, Vikings for AA are amazing, Banshees + cloak are strong and fast, BTs are BTs, Ravens are a great support unit, Medivac works so well with M&M ball On the ground, they have Reapers which are amazing for harrass, M&M ball is very good especially with Stim and Concussive being cheap and available. Tanks are fast & great, Thor is a monster with his splash Not to mention all the little extras that get be researched with each unit, Stim, Concussive, cloak, EMP, Siege, 250 mm canon, Auto turret, PDD, Seeker missile, etc Even their main building, the CC can be a strong defense with the PF or get you scouting info from the comfort of your base. I just find Terran to have a good army that compliments itself PROTOSS: THE WEAKEST ARMYNot gonna bother writing when someone already did it so well http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128071On a side note: ZERGI don't think it has the weakest army. it compliments itself, similar to terran (not as much for sure and it does need work) Roachs are very strong in early game and even in Mid-Late game against Thors or Siege Tanks. Their moving while burrowed is amazing too. Hydras are great period. Mutas are great for harrass. Yes Ultralisks need work but as a T3 unit, Broodlords are beasts. And the Infestor are most probably the coolest unit in the game. Good points, definitely. In my experience Terran felt both complete and easier to play than zerg, thats why I said what I did. I do like zerg much more though, with zerg its basically "survive until you win" kind of playstyle, which I think suits zerg well, fits the swarmy feeling. Weak at first, but if you can hold off the first few attacks (which you are given the tools to do) and survive till lategame, the game swings in your favor, and it becomes the zergs game to lose Like I said I feel that even if people say zerg feels 'incomplete', I feel it has already been given the tools to be able to survive against the other races till it reaches critical macro capability, perhaps im wrong here and they could still use a boost.
The way I see it, Zerg is like a parasite. If you let them expand too much, you are screwed lol They can rebuild their army so fast its crazy. and their creep tumors give them so much map control!
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The problem is Blizzard screwed up the zerg "swarm" by not having ANY zerg unit costing 1 food. This IS the problem, and the problem is the design they opted to go for SC2 with hydra at tier 2, and them being forced to up roach to 2 food. Actually since I hate the roach, I did not mind the nerf, but the design flaws they made from the beginning forced them to remove all 1 food zergs from the game, and now we ended up with this mess. It is too late to alter the race drastically now, and I can not figure out how they can solve this mess.
Personally I would be glad if they removed the roach completely, and tried something new that works for the zerg, but it wont happen, and for them to make hydra 1 food they need to make too many alterations aswell.
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Best race: Protoss
Worst race: None
Terran is strong, I agree, but I still got to hand it to Protoss, who could warp units almost anywhere on the map and able to divide an entire army with the use of a single skill.
Even so, all races are deadly in the hands of a pro. So no worst race for me.
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I'll just say that I think Terran is the best strictly in the sense that it has the most potential and is more in-depth than the other races and Zerg being the worst strictly in the sense that it's the most difficult while also having less depth than both T or P. I look forward to having my latter statement proven wrong though as I watch more Zerg pros once the game is released.
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Best: Terran, unrivaled versatility and undisputed solidarity overall.
Worst: Between P and Z.
Protoss has bigger/more expensive units and buildings mean every mistake counts that much more, and very hard to have varied tech without 2-3+ bases, meaning that very skilled players will really have a ball with Protoss, the less mistakes you manage to make, this race will benefit the most.
Zerg is just a lot harder to play in comparison to T or P (macro wise), they are a huge macro race and I really think most of these Zergs just can't handle the APM.
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I feel like protoss really the best/easiest race. it was the one i had most wins with the easiest when i tried all of them.
I would just go robo and get colossus or immortals depending on what their army composition was, got me from bronze to gold in a few days. felt almost too easy.
And force fields, just feels a little TOO use full to me right now. I would really like to see some change to it, to make it less effective in battles
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It's an ambiguous question. Worse in what context? Gameplay? Dynamics? Strength relative to other races? Build varieties?
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lol how can anyone say that Terran is harder than Protoss? I mean if someone in Diamond really claims that, their stupid no offense.
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I want to think myself as neutral, eventhough it ofc doesn't sound that way when admitting I'm zerg:
Best: T, Worst: Z.
Not claiming there's huge imbalances, but I feel it's a lot easier to adapt and force opponent to do specific stuff as other races, terran specially. As zerg it feels you may get even match at best. To me it feels terran always gets even match minimum - or better, if he gets lucky with locations or map.
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You need to define 'best'.
Most powerful? Most fun? Most annoying?
I find P the most fun to play and T the most powerful and its also great for pissing people off. Fast reaper/banshee etc.
Well I'm a Zerg player but Zerg sucks. Boring and just so linear. At least we have creep
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Most fun would be protoss. Zerg feels little lacking with variety. But all in all I would say they are all just fine
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This is my idéas and thoughts.
I feel like zerg is the one that takes moste practise and attention and oncetration and skills because you`ve got to manage and keep up so many things..
Overlords, larva, creep tumors, and of course, get alot of units.
You need to scout alot and really counter whatever the scout tells you to get because a randomly assigned army will not get far.
I enjoy zerg because it takes skill and is interesting.
There are alot of games where you can play as humans and alot where you can play against aliens with lazer guns.
Zerg is just "special".
I voted zerg for as, because of what is written in my post.
And protoss for worst, because their units is too strong, and their hidden pylon warp in in my base stuff is so fucking nooby. Cannon shit is also annoying.
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terran is the best. they have so many options when it comes to harass, and late game a maxed terran army is probably the best in the game in most situations.
zerg gets my vote for worst right now. however, the amount of workers that a zerg can potentially (and seemingly safely, according to today's trends) get out in the mid game compared to a T or P makes balancing zerg's mid-late game army a really delicate process. if zerg's mid/late game army was a little more efficient they could easily become the best race.
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I've read through 4/6 pages and have yet to see anyone make a convincing argument based on statistical information and not just opinionated bullshit. We have lists of the ladder rankings and records from all tournaments yet people are vehemently claiming positions based on biases. Almost every single person says their race is the weakest.
Really says a lot. No idea how this isn't closed yet, these threads are far too numerous and getting really tiring.
Balance isn't decided by polls, and shouldn't be, so give these a rest. We already know that Zerg players are more opinionated on balance topics as well as more prevalent on these forums and that most of the time the races voting are not equally represented.
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Protoss Best.
Zerg Worst.
I sympathize with people saying Terran is the strongest.However, I've seen Toss with some really brilliant ways to break Terran Mech Turtles. Immo's leading, Blinking onto Tanks to share splash damage, and storming all at once. Maybe I lucked out and played someone like White-rA or Huk or NonY... but even durring the game I sad- "LOL dude that was fucking sweet."
To me, it seems that Protoss has the most options for dealing with the most situations and also for causing the most trouble for an opponent.
Conversely, Zerg has the least of said options.
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I feel like such a baller for having made the switch to zerg fulltime
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I think the only reason terran is so high is cos of how badly designed the maps are at the moment.
Fwiw i voted terran at the top and zerg at the bottom, but, right now, i don't think any balance changes are needed, i think new maps can easily shift the balance in either one of the three races favours, and I'd much prefer blizzard to go down the 'changing the maps' balance path, rather than continuing to try to balance the game on these crappy ones =[
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On July 20 2010 17:35 Grend wrote:
I feel like such a baller for having made the switch to zerg fulltime
As well you should! When Beta first came out, it was pretty much the consensus that Terran was the weakest, and I was working up the divisions with them.
Question is- are you gonna change if one day Zerg is considered the easiest?
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On July 20 2010 17:38 Ftrunkz wrote:
I think the only reason terran is so high is cos of how badly designed the maps are at the moment.
Fwiw i voted terran at the top and zerg at the bottom, but, right now, i don't think any balance changes are needed, i think new maps can easily shift the balance in either one of the three races favours, and I'd much prefer blizzard to go down the 'changing the maps' balance path, rather than continuing to try to balance the game on these crappy ones =[
The maps are FULL of tight passageways- narrow spaces and easily defensible naturals. Not to even MENTION places to stash Tanks and Thors...
Some of the more wide open maps that were designed to emulate BW maps (Destination, Python, Fighting Spirit, Heartbreak) definitely lead to changes in gameplay among my friends.
It was actually very interesting. Though I hated Destination in BW, it made things REALLY interesting for SC2 there towards the end of Phase 2. Map was HUGE.
The Blizzard ones seem to be little Terran sized blenders.
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The synergy between Terran units and Toss units, respectively, along with abilities such as Force Field, Stim, Concussion, Siege Mode, Healing, Sentry Shield, storm, EMP, etc, is beautiful. And in battles with high priority units like the tank and collossus, the battle efficiency of the Zerg army just cannot compare. Oh, we have the Brood Lord alright, but any zerg knows teching to BO takes time (something we do not have when facing an opponent that constantly demands you field a large army).
And ultralisk? You gotta be fking joking.
Zerg just doesn't have the abilities and unit combos to meet the armies of the Toss and Terr. Zerg is not the WORST, just the most underdeveloped and unoriginal army in the game. Blizz needs to think about revamping the zerg unit list.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
People complaining about Terran being OP should start playing as Terrans but I have a feeling that they will suck with Terran also..
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I'm actually pretty hesitant to call Terran overpowered (as a zerg player). They're definitely possible to beat without anything gimmicky or whatever. At the same time, I sometimes feel that I need to be a lot better than the terran player to win.
But like I said, I can't call terran overpowered. I just wouldn't mind terran actually having to put effort into their wins.
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These arguments that centre around the strength of 200/200 armies are total bunk... in SC1 there would be few that would not agree that a 200/200 Terran metal army was strongest (was Terran overpowered relative to P/Z in sc1? No.)
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bias is strong in this thread... really evryone who says one thing is easy or op should play the other race on diamond lvl first before complaining. or the opinion isnt worth anything at all.
dunno if T is the strongest but atm it def feels the most complete. versatile army,answer for all problems ,way to punish greedy/stupid plays by the enemy etc. but i def dont think T needs a nerf. if anything bring Z onpar. while Z is my 2nd best race(t best) its def the most boring to play.
other then that i somehow had the feeling that in p2 the playstyles rather went to worse instead of beeing smarter. while at the end of p1 i saw quite some decent games in p2 evry P would just throw a Allin 4-5gate/voidray/collosus at me and once defended insta leave. all Ts were either trying to do a mm allin or turtle with mass tank/turret for 30 minutes. all Z were trying to baneling bust or do a roach burrow etc. dunno if i just had a weird streak of opponents in my 200 p2 games or i remember it wrong but thats the impression i got.
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i think zerg has the tools to be the best race, but people haven't figured how to use them in the right measures yet.
the potential is there - nydus worm, mutalisk vs mech, burrowed infestor, ultralisk vs mech, contaminate, offensive spinecrawler, burrowed roach.
imo people just want an easy win. they play zerg because in theory they should be able to win by making a 1a2a swarm of speedlings, banelings or roach, hydra.
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On July 20 2010 17:59 Bibbit wrote:
I'm actually pretty hesitant to call Terran overpowered (as a zerg player). They're definitely possible to beat without anything gimmicky or whatever. At the same time, I sometimes feel that I need to be a lot better than the terran player to win.
But like I said, I can't call terran overpowered. I just wouldn't mind terran actually having to put effort into their wins.
Thanks for being reasonable 
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If Zerg is the worst race, then Asian zergs are doing an awesome job hiding it... in my opinion protoss seem have taken that place.
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Terran feels like a Brood War race.
Zerg feels like a Starcraft race.
Toss is inbetween.
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Anyone who thinks the game is balanced is quite frankly an idiot. Infact imo it was more balanced at the beginning of beta than it is now.
At the moment a semi-decent Terran player is pretty much unstoppable against all but the best Protoss and Zerg players. Zerg inparticular have it espicially hard versus Terran, Let me explain why:
1. Tanks, just a joke really how there is no counter to these units from Zerg ground. Even burrowed roaches unburrowing in amongst a bunch of siege mode tanks usually lose as they all die after 1 shot. Tanks 1 hit kill pretty much everything else.
2. Anti-Air. Thors, Marines, Missile Turrets and Vikings, every single one of them is too cheap and does the job far too well. Not to mention Thors, Marines and Vikings utterly rape units on ground too.
3. MULEs. Another broken mechanic, the only redeemable feature that really made Terran acceptable in SC1 is that they typically had much less money than Protoss and Zerg as it was much more difficult to expand. In SC2 Terran don't even need to expand and can comfortably out produce you with 1 base vs 3-4 bases as Zerg. When Terran run out of money at home they simply move all the defence to an expansion and begin mining from 1 base again until they beat you.
Summing up. Terran are totally and utterly broken. Actually alot of players I know who were expecting SC2 to be 'the greatest RTS ever' have simply decided not to buy it upon release and wait for expansions purely because of the balance issues with the game and Blizzards seeming blind ignorance to how broken their product is.
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On July 20 2010 20:09 Necrosjef wrote:
Anyone who thinks the game is balanced is quite frankly an idiot. Infact imo it was more balanced at the beginning of beta than it is now.
At the moment a semi-decent Terran player is pretty much unstoppable against all but the best Protoss and Zerg players. Zerg inparticular have it espicially hard versus Terran, Let me explain why:
1. Tanks, just a joke really how there is no counter to these units from Zerg ground. Even burrowed roaches unburrowing in amongst a bunch of siege mode tanks usually lose as they all die after 1 shot. Tanks 1 hit kill pretty much everything else.
2. Anti-Air. Thors, Marines, Missile Turrets and Vikings, every single one of them is too cheap and does the job far too well. Not to mention Thors, Marines and Vikings utterly rape units on ground too.
3. MULEs. Another broken mechanic, the only redeemable feature that really made Terran acceptable in SC1 is that they typically had much less money than Protoss and Zerg as it was much more difficult to expand. In SC2 Terran don't even need to expand and can comfortably out produce you with 1 base vs 3-4 bases as Zerg. When Terran run out of money at home they simply move all the defence to an expansion and begin mining from 1 base again until they beat you.
Summing up. Terran are totally and utterly broken. Actually alot of players I know who were expecting SC2 to be 'the greatest RTS ever' have simply decided not to buy it upon release and wait for expansions purely because of the balance issues with the game and Blizzards seeming blind ignorance to how broken their product is.
Hello there, cutie-pie, aren't you the little zerg version of Azure-eye?
I highlighted things that have no basis in reality, wanna add something? :>
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Voted - Best: Terran, Worst: Zerg
though I don't think the imbalance is very large at all.
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Its opposite of sc when it first came out, with zerg being weak and terran strong. 80 supply of zerg units die to like 8 tanks even with decent flank.
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On July 20 2010 20:20 Sadistx wrote:
Hello there, cutie-pie, aren't you the little zerg version of Azure-eye?
I highlighted things that have no basis in reality, wanna add something? :>
Hi there cutie-pie
I highlighted things that have no basis in reality, wanna add something?
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Although I always tend to stick with that the races are very well balanced and that a lot can be blamed on map design I can't help but feel it shouldn't be that way, unless a map is downright horrible (so far only Incineration Zone and Desert Oasis have been that imoho). I feel the impact the maps have on the balance is a bit too prominent in SC2, but I can't blame it on the maps themselves. Rather, I feel..certain races, and with that I mean mostly Terran, get away with a bit too much simply because they've got a versatility the opponent (mostly Zerg) can't quite match or counter through force. Perhaps it'd be good to weaken the "punch" of Terran a bit, but I'm really not qualified to contemplate on that other than in my own sick mind.
So, to cut it short. Although I feel there's no huge imbalance, Terran has a slight advantage while Zerg is at a disadvantage. I feel Protoss is at a pretty comfortable position on the whole (even if I think a handful of their units could use an overhaul), especially taking into account that they might have more unexplored potential than the other two.
Oh, and I play random but feel Zerg is the most fun.
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I think we just need to remember PvT in Brood War. In medium-ish numbers, Protoss can't really straight attack a sieged up Terran unless they have a great attack angle. I think this would still stand in ZvT for SC2 but the maps simply dont allow for it. It's almost impossible to get a good attack angle anywhere on any of the current maps.
A bit later in a BW TvP, when the numbers are really big, the Protoss almost has to completely abandon getting into ground battles with the Terran. At this point, the spellcasters have a big part (mainly the arbiter). You can abuse the immobility of the Terran with Recall or you can incapacitate some of it with Stasis. As it stands in SC2 right now, the Zerg doesnt really have the spellcasting capability to fuck with the army (mainly because of Neural Parasite nerf I guess). That said, zerg can still abuse the immobility with things like the Nydus Worm, something I seriously think needs to be explored much further.
The third major way that Toss was able to deal with Terran in BW was to out-expand them like mad. It's not uncommon to see a Protoss have 2-3+ expansions over the terran in later game scenarios. Terran just had a lot of trouble pushing out and stopping them. With the comparatively small maps that we see in SC2, Terran is more capable of shutting down attempts to mass expand.
Much of what I said is true for PvT in SC2 as well. Sorry for comparing different match ups (and of course different games) but I hope I get my point across. To sum up real quick, I think a lot of the current "imbalance" that we are supposedly seeing is actually problems in the maps.
I mentioned this in an earlier post here but I'll just reiterate: I play zerg.
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On July 20 2010 20:27 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 20:20 Sadistx wrote:
Hello there, cutie-pie, aren't you the little zerg version of Azure-eye?
I highlighted things that have no basis in reality, wanna add something? :> Hi there cutie-pie I highlighted things that have no basis in reality, wanna add something?
I accept your resignation
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Imo the best race is Terran because you have a lot of diversity in the strats and the units combo in every matchup, the worst is Zerg because you have the least diversity, must be boring to play..
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On July 20 2010 20:42 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 20:27 Necrosjef wrote:On July 20 2010 20:20 Sadistx wrote:
Hello there, cutie-pie, aren't you the little zerg version of Azure-eye?
I highlighted things that have no basis in reality, wanna add something? :> Hi there cutie-pie I highlighted things that have no basis in reality, wanna add something? I accept your resignation
I accept your resignation
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How many threads are you zergs going to make to make yourself feel better about losing to terrans? I've seriously lost count. Your main argument is basically "tanks imba". I've yet to see a single replay confirming this, maybe because no one here is actually good enough to provide such high level reps.
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My best is Z because i feel good with the execution, my macro is on top with this race.
My worst is P because i almost never play them, their design has always looked a little bit fag for me.
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On July 20 2010 21:14 Sadistx wrote:
How many threads are you zergs going to make to make yourself feel better about losing to terrans? I've seriously lost count. Your main argument is basically "tanks imba". I've yet to see a single replay confirming this, maybe because no one here is actually good enough to provide such high level reps.
How about contribute something useful to the discussion or GTFO?
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Best T:
All units are really good.
EMP are fast to have.
Tank are just brutal.
Thors rape air like nothing.
Mass marine is so good.
Worst P (for me):
Still have difficulty to use the force field to my advantage.
Don't have good BO to use Collossus vs Zerg without getting raped by muta.
I can't use at all the plane i don't even remember the name since I never use them
(at least, Void ray rape in 2v2 )
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best: terran
worst: protoss
Sure everyone rages about protoss mobility micro & harrasment opportunities which is true, but other races have ample of these too, the difference here is protoss' shine through because they simply cannot engage in a 1-1 fight with other races (terran especially) as the standing army is just weaker, no way around it.
PvZ is probably balanced/very nearly balanced but protoss has the harder time against terran which is why this is my decision
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On July 20 2010 21:38 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 21:14 Sadistx wrote:
How many threads are you zergs going to make to make yourself feel better about losing to terrans? I've seriously lost count. Your main argument is basically "tanks imba". I've yet to see a single replay confirming this, maybe because no one here is actually good enough to provide such high level reps. How about contribute something useful to the discussion or GTFO?
You should probably take that advice and post some replays instead of the nonsense from your previous posts.
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I feel the strongest with Protoss (with PvP being the only exception), then Terran, and finally zerg. I'm sure between balancing, and expansions the scales will bounce around (sound familiar?) between over/under powered.
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Make roach 1.5 supply!
or give it 2 armor or something
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On July 20 2010 21:14 Sadistx wrote:
How many threads are you zergs going to make to make yourself feel better about losing to terrans? I've seriously lost count. Your main argument is basically "tanks imba". I've yet to see a single replay confirming this, maybe because no one here is actually good enough to provide such high level reps.
I don't think you understand exactly how good smart-targetting is... Now, I'm not saying "tanks are imba," because there are certainly ways to beat terran mech (going for base trade, massing ling/infestor, just staying at much higher food count etc.). However, it is insane how much damage tanks can do to a good ling/roach/hydra army. With units all clumping together automatically and tanks never overkilling, you can easily lose 4,5 times as many roaches to tanks. With good tank positioning, you basically can never engage the tanks directly, and have to either neural parasite half of them first or run around to counterattack.
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The problem is not just tanks. Its that siege tank weaknesses are covered very easily in this game, particularly against zerg. Marines are stronger than in BW, mutalisks are about the same but can't be clumped. Even if they were clumped then you'd get boned by Thor. And of course no dark swarm.
Brood lords just come too late. But even if you can get them out, terran has vikings. I've often said the problem with terran is not so much the units are broken but that for some reason they gave terran the longest ranged ground unit and the longest ranged air unit.
If you think ZvT is balanced, try it. There's not much you can do against a well-protected tank line. A lot of people say 'exploit mobility blah blah' but the maps are too small and it doesn't really matter if you can kill off a base but can't touch their army. Right now nobody has any solid suggestions of how to beat a well-protected tank line. You can pull it off every now and then, but it's not balanced. I'm not saying that it doesn't take skill though.
PvZ is balanced enough. It's actually the matchup I enjoy watching most, currently.
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Best one is Protoss, the new mechanics are all interesting and creative. And talk about new mechanic, i don't see much change from Terran and Zerg. Just think about Protoss's warp gate, phase prism, force field.....
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Terran has just too many Units and with a good mixture of them, you can abuse each units strenght but overcome each of their weaknesses.
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As it stands, terran and toss have large advantage but it is because of blizzard's TERRIBLE maps. All of the 1v1 maps are a complete joke, and the larger maps, which are usually great for zerg, have cliffs over the natural, tons of chokes, relatively short push distances unless you are cross position, and just made for the small terran/toss ball of death. Even metalopolis, which is this the most forgiving map for zerg players, doesn't have many large open spaces where zerg can get a good concave.
When we start seeing maps similar to those on ICCUP, the terran's immobility will really start to hurt them and they won't be able to rely on mech without being punished. A spell like FF that is currently OP against zerg in a ton of situations won't be nearly as effective.
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I totally disagree with you actually lol. I played T in phase 1 and R in phase 2 and I find zerg to be the best race. It's ideal for powering early game, and then with a thin defense against the first push the game is yours to win or lose. Sure roach/hydra + infestor would be a bad race, but zerg has many more units, plus interesting mechanics such as creep puke/tumor, ol drops, nydus worms, move while burrowed, etc. that allow them to make the most out of their units and come up with more interesting strategies.
I think terran is worst because you autolose to any protoss who does a 4gate + immortal push, you basically have to make siege tanks for tvt, and any kind of drop or harass you do vs zerg will be spotted by overlords well in advance.
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On July 20 2010 23:34 DuneBug wrote:
The problem is not just tanks. Its that siege tank weaknesses are covered very easily in this game, particularly against zerg. Marines are stronger than in BW, mutalisks are about the same but can't be clumped. Even if they were clumped then you'd get boned by Thor. And of course no dark swarm.
Brood lords just come too late. But even if you can get them out, terran has vikings. I've often said the problem with terran is not so much the units are broken but that for some reason they gave terran the longest ranged ground unit and the longest ranged air unit.
If you think ZvT is balanced, try it. There's not much you can do against a well-protected tank line. A lot of people say 'exploit mobility blah blah' but the maps are too small and it doesn't really matter if you can kill off a base but can't touch their army. Right now nobody has any solid suggestions of how to beat a well-protected tank line. You can pull it off every now and then, but it's not balanced. I'm not saying that it doesn't take skill though.
PvZ is balanced enough. It's actually the matchup I enjoy watching most, currently.
100% Agree with this^^
Tanks are strong themselves but they are beatable by certain units. Big issue Zerg has is that those certain units get UTTERLY RAPED by the units that aren't a tank.
Terran aren't unbeatable but a 80 APM Terran can easily beat a 180 APM Zerg player in the current state of things on certain maps.
Certain maps are kinda even like Metalopolis, not sure a whole bunch of Zerg players would disagree with that. Other maps like Steppes of war are an utter joke though.
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@ sugar bear, I agree that zerg has interesting mechanics and options and they have always been my favorite race since BW. it just feels that on most maps, zerg don't the ability to utilize their strengths.
1- maps are considerably smaller in sc2 than they were in sc1 and both terran and toss have stronger harass/rush openings, so zerg FE is suicide in many cases
2- maps have less open space and more chokes in sc2, so terran/toss can wall of easier and hold off huge zerg attacks without having to worry about surrounds or ambushes
3- maps in sc2 have cliffs everywhere, which allows terran to abuse vikings, tank drops, thor
drops (this is especially tough for zerg because, unlike in BW, we have no anti air units in T1 other than queens)
disclaimer-i'm only a mid-level diamond and am still crappy at this game, but until someone convinces me otherwise i believe blizzard churned out some awful and imbalanced ladder maps that are breaking ZvT and partially ZvP
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On July 20 2010 09:30 us.insurgency wrote:
Its all going to change with the expansion packs. This is the Terran game so they have a bunch of units, then zerg will get some, and then finally protoss.
I think that all three races will get new units in each expansion pack, however I also believe that Heart of The Swarm will be focused on more so on extra Zerg stuff, and Legacy of the Void will do the same with Protoss. Give Blizzard a chance, the game hasn't even come out yet. Brood War is balanced but is the original Starcraft without the expansion pack balanced?
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Terran I would have to say is the strongest, not by far by any means, but if I had to chose it would be terran. Mech may do a lot of damage but it's easily exploited with drops and such. As for the worst I have to say is zerg. I started sc2 as a zerg player but I got bored of the simplicity of the race. I found myself getting roaches, hydras lings and mutas all the time. I have now switched to protoss and I'm loving the feel of the race.
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On July 20 2010 22:48 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 21:38 Necrosjef wrote:On July 20 2010 21:14 Sadistx wrote:
How many threads are you zergs going to make to make yourself feel better about losing to terrans? I've seriously lost count. Your main argument is basically "tanks imba". I've yet to see a single replay confirming this, maybe because no one here is actually good enough to provide such high level reps. How about contribute something useful to the discussion or GTFO? You should probably take that advice and post some replays instead of the nonsense from your previous posts.
Go watch Intotherainbow vs Dimaga
http://day9tv.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc
Basic showcase of how Terran is broken.
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On July 21 2010 02:21 tskarzyn wrote:
@ sugar bear, I agree that zerg has interesting mechanics and options and they have always been my favorite race since BW. it just feels that on most maps, zerg don't the ability to utilize their strengths.
1- maps are considerably smaller in sc2 than they were in sc1 and both terran and toss have stronger harass/rush openings, so zerg FE is suicide in many cases
2- maps have less open space and more chokes in sc2, so terran/toss can wall of easier and hold off huge zerg attacks without having to worry about surrounds or ambushes
3- maps in sc2 have cliffs everywhere, which allows terran to abuse vikings, tank drops, thor
drops (this is especially tough for zerg because, unlike in BW, we have no anti air units in T1 other than queens)
I totally agree with you. Most of the Balance issues could be solved by more balanced maps.
But blizzard said, that there will only be small maps in the ladder Map pool because of noobfriendlyness.
I also think that Zerg is a bit weaker because they don't have a Unit that really does aoe or that can catch an opponent off guard like Hellions, Tanks, Colossi, Templar, Dt's, Banshees, Reapers, Voidrays.
So, even though you could Tech switch very fast as zerg, the lack of options makes it really hard to surpise an enemy and still being able to defend your bases.
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The fact that a lot of terran players think terran is too strong proves it.
I think the same and I also play terran.
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On July 21 2010 02:40 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 22:48 Sadistx wrote:On July 20 2010 21:38 Necrosjef wrote:On July 20 2010 21:14 Sadistx wrote:
How many threads are you zergs going to make to make yourself feel better about losing to terrans? I've seriously lost count. Your main argument is basically "tanks imba". I've yet to see a single replay confirming this, maybe because no one here is actually good enough to provide such high level reps. How about contribute something useful to the discussion or GTFO? You should probably take that advice and post some replays instead of the nonsense from your previous posts. Go watch Intotherainbow vs Dimaga http://day9tv.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dcBasic showcase of how Terran is broken.
...because blind roach building before expo is a good strategy. Right. Oh and let's do it two games in a row. And forget focusing the scvs repairing the depot even though roaches can hit them, just let the bunker go from 175 hp to 170 and back again until all the roaches are dead. And not sac an overlord to see what tech terran is getting until there's two cloaked banshee in my mineral line.
C'mon man you can't be serious. Dimaga played desperate from the very beginning.
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Back when all we had to look at where the blizzard show matches with David Kim everyone already said that Zerg were the worst race. Buth in strength and polish/fun factor. And back then I decided to play Zerg, to show that they are strong, and can be fun.
I still think though they are behind the other races in both regards and they never caught up to the other races in the months since. But in my opinion it's worse that they are comparatively bland in comparison than that they are weaker in comparison. They are not swarmy like Zerg should be, the spells are all kind of lame in comparison (fungal growth is by far the best one, in usefulness and coolness, and that tells yo something).
Anyway. Since the beta started I have seen a lot of casts, and since decided to be random, because there are far too many things I wanna try with the other races too.
I'm still kind of disappointed with how Zerg turned out over the course of the beta. Whenever I thought they had an opportunity to make them cool and more varied in gameplay, they sort of did the opposite. The infested terran is the poster child for that. Few things were more ridiculed and shunned than this spell on the infestor. And in the last patch before the end they basically returned it to the original state everyone hated.
All that is to hope left is the first expansion, that is supposed to be Zerg centric.
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I don't really feel that there is a better or worse race, just different ways to play..
Tho I feel like Terran is really really boring with MMM and tanks+vikings. I'm kinda split on playing either zerg or toss, toss is more straight forward and has more units to play around with. Tho that zerg macro can be so powerful.. and <3 Mutas.
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Terran is obviously the strong race right now. Terran itself may not be overpowered, but Zerg and Protoss have to have much higher APM in order to be on par with Terran, and that's an unfair burden. For the worst race, Zerg and Protoss are both contenders. Zerg has less unit diveristy, but every unit is a staple unit. Protoss has the carrier and the mothership which I wouldn't count as units. In PvZ, the protoss early game push is quite strong, while Zerg dominates the midgame with muta-ling and late game with broodlords. Which race is stronger is still a tossup.
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Terran are easy.
Protoss seem to be balanced.
Zerg are my hardest.
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Let's at least see some map changes before we declare "Zerg is terrible and Terran is OP" as the law of the land
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On July 21 2010 05:19 Chairman Ray wrote:
Terran is obviously the strong race right now. Terran itself may not be overpowered, but Zerg and Protoss have to have much higher APM in order to be on par with Terran, and that's an unfair burden. For the worst race, Zerg and Protoss are both contenders. Zerg has less unit diveristy, but every unit is a staple unit. Protoss has the carrier and the mothership which I wouldn't count as units. In PvZ, the protoss early game push is quite strong, while Zerg dominates the midgame with muta-ling and late game with broodlords. Which race is stronger is still a tossup.
My APM is naturally higher when playing Z over Terran. I mean 20-30 APM higher... and I'm not playing any different.
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Does everyone realize that Blizzard has a shitload of statistics they use to balance the game? They know the win loss ratio of every race, in every matchup, and in every league from bottom bronze to top diamond. They know where races are strong and where races are weak. The truth is that Terran is the most played race because they are human, and humans are naturally inclined to play that race first. At the upper levels it has been proven that both protoss and zerg are extremely competetive and powerful, perhaps more so than terran. The balance in this game is not perfect by any means, and it varies by skill level. At the upper skill levels it appears very balanced, although zerg is probably the strongest race and terran the weakest but by very small margins.
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god, so many people speaking without thinking first. SO ANNOYING
they drown out the reasonable posts. like this one.
On July 20 2010 11:00 tfmdjeff wrote:
Zerg, though it is my main race and always will be, is the worst race. The thing is, both terran and protoss have dedicated counters to most units. Zerg does not. Zerg has to rely on sheer numbers to overpower an army. Now, I know that can be true for all races, but I mean a protoss army could beat a zerg army twice its size with proper unit composition. Zerg can't do that, it really doesn't have as many counter units. The only unit Zerg units that were designed to be a hard counter to something are the corruptor (bonus vs massive), baneling (bonus vs light) and the ultralisk (bonus vs armored). The others simply don't have that. The roach has a base damage, plus nothing vs nothing. Same with the hydralisk, zergling, and mutalisk. Zerg can't rely on unit composition as much as the other 2 races. It's more crude, the way to win is, for the most part, with larger numbers and sheer brute force. You can get creative with infestors and overseers, but you still have to have a larger army. I feel that if zerg had a few more useful spells (all they really have now are fungal growth and contaminate, not even NP since it has such a short time limit now), it would really change the dynamics of zerg play, and it might not get an overwhelming 68% of votes for worst race.
Yet still, i love Zerg because I can macro hardcore like no other race can do, and even though it technically lacks in depth, when you start to get creative with your micro, it becomes a lot of fun.
I agree 100% with this. repostan for justice
I'd like to play zerg the most, but it's just not a good choice right now. late game is truly boring!
it's pretty useless to say that this or that is OP. if any unit were to be OP, people would see that immediately and begin massing ONLY that. that's obviously not the case. Yes, of course there are differences, but they are SLIGHT, and always will be unless Blizzard hires incompetent devs.
So as has been pointed out numerous times, Terran and Protoss are pretty even, while it's quite obvious that Zerg desperately need a few more units, and/or more variety. what for? not exactly "balance" as in power, but "balance" as in strategic variety.
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It seems like people don't understand the difference between "that's OP" and "I suck" which can feel the same a lot of the time. Yes, Terran can turtle and be 50 IQ 50 APM morons and 1a over you... if you suck. I would agree that SC 2 is not balanced at the lower levels, but frankly if you can't be bothered to L2P too bad for you.
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Even if Terran needs less APM... doesn't mean OP though... equivalent of SC1 protoss!
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I do think most people that didn't play the beta and jump right into campaign and then into multiplayer will go Terran.
They have played a lot with that race, know which units are good against other units and which are bad.
They will feel more comfortable with Terran then with any other race.
I forsee 40-50% terran players.
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im zerg top 10 diamondI and think all races are balanced by now at like 95%
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On July 21 2010 06:04 TymerA wrote:
I do think most people that didn't play the beta and jump right into campaign and then into multiplayer will go Terran.
They have played a lot with that race, know which units are good against other units and which are bad.
They will feel more comfortable with Terran then with any other race.
I forsee 40-50% terran players.
cool story bro
User was warned for this post
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On July 21 2010 06:12 libshdnighi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 06:04 TymerA wrote:
I do think most people that didn't play the beta and jump right into campaign and then into multiplayer will go Terran.
They have played a lot with that race, know which units are good against other units and which are bad.
They will feel more comfortable with Terran then with any other race.
I forsee 40-50% terran players. cool story bro
i advice you to delete this post before you get banned.
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Just from feel playing high level diamond random for like 200 games in phase 2 I'd say T>P>Z.
TvZ seems favoured for terran. Seems like zerg needs to be really good at stalling and macroing while teching hive to even stand a chance, and even then win off the terrans mistakes.
TvP It feels like if you can get EMP in on most of his templar the game is over. Just some simple dropping and its hard to keep up with the terran. Colossus have troubles with viking. Even ghost/mech is hard to deal with. Early game ghost/marine seems really powerful vs P. It's very possible to win as P it just feels hard.
PvZ might be favoured for either side, still playing around with it. But late game roach/ultra seems powerfull.
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best - zerg
worst - zerg
in terms of 'variety' i think zerg is lacking, in fact i think there have been some blog posts about it but i think in scouting, harassment and actual combat, zerg is ahead in all 3, if micro'd correctly, which is (for me) harder than micro on terran and protoss due to the nature of the units.
but that's where the meta game will come in and change that.
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On July 21 2010 06:30 CidO wrote:best - zerg worst - zerg in terms of 'variety' i think zerg is lacking, in fact i think there have been some blog posts about it but i think in scouting, harassment and actual combat, zerg is ahead in all 3, if micro'd correctly, which is (for me) harder than micro on terran and protoss due to the nature of the units. but that's where the meta game will come in and change that.
How is zerg ahead in actual combat? I feel you have to play a little "dirty" as zerg to win an outright confrontation.
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On July 21 2010 02:40 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 22:48 Sadistx wrote:On July 20 2010 21:38 Necrosjef wrote:On July 20 2010 21:14 Sadistx wrote:
How many threads are you zergs going to make to make yourself feel better about losing to terrans? I've seriously lost count. Your main argument is basically "tanks imba". I've yet to see a single replay confirming this, maybe because no one here is actually good enough to provide such high level reps. How about contribute something useful to the discussion or GTFO? You should probably take that advice and post some replays instead of the nonsense from your previous posts. Go watch Intotherainbow vs Dimaga http://day9tv.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dcBasic showcase of how Terran is broken.
dimaga just have an awful day.
on lost temple, he expanded while intotherainbow stayed in one base.
when T does that it is obviously something like banshees, thor drop, etc.
he should have 1 or 2 spores and 2 queens on each hatchery then he would be
safe for any cheese strat and since he had an expo he would still be ahead.
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On July 21 2010 02:40 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 22:48 Sadistx wrote:On July 20 2010 21:38 Necrosjef wrote:On July 20 2010 21:14 Sadistx wrote:
How many threads are you zergs going to make to make yourself feel better about losing to terrans? I've seriously lost count. Your main argument is basically "tanks imba". I've yet to see a single replay confirming this, maybe because no one here is actually good enough to provide such high level reps. How about contribute something useful to the discussion or GTFO? You should probably take that advice and post some replays instead of the nonsense from your previous posts. Go watch Intotherainbow vs Dimaga http://day9tv.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dcBasic showcase of how Terran is broken.
I just watch this, and this shows exactly that at least some of the Z players on here don't have any clue what they are doing. I'm not saying Dimaga doesn't know what he was doing but he was straight up playing not smart those games. He suicides his units many times... that's just not smart. if you think this is an example of Terran being broken, you are blind. This is an example of people complaining about balance issues because of poor playing.
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terran is the best race for me because i have the feeling that the maps are way too small. the push distances are so close and outexpanding is very hard on certain maps(steppes,blistering) that the big ball just rapes you
i cannot say that any race is the "worst" because zerg for example just needs more diversity..
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On July 20 2010 10:02 synapse wrote:
Zerg is the weakest at 200/200, but you can usually get to max supply much faster with Queen larva inject.
.......
Then why not attack while your maxed and he isn't etc...That doesn't make any sense.
This thread is just....wow...
"Terran is imba because so many people use terran"
TBH I think Zerg has the most potential, etc. Banelings absolutely destroy bio, broodlords are hard to deal with because of the damn broodlings, you can get close because marines, thors, can't walk over them.
Protoss is still loltoss. 4 gate, or so some cheesy air or all in, etc. huk huk huk
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best; toss
worst; terran
wow terran is way ahead of everyone in best race. hm
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From my experience you cant get the most out of Zerg without insane APM mid & late game. I voted Terran for the best race not because they are "imba", but because I think Terran gameplay is fun and offers more variety than P & Z
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On July 21 2010 06:46 TRAP[yoo] wrote:terran is the best race for me because i have the feeling that the maps are way too small. the push distances are so close and outexpanding is very hard on certain maps(steppes,blistering) that the big ball just rapes you i cannot say that any race is the "worst" because zerg for example just needs more diversity..
I actually like this post because it touches on an overlooked issue.
Maps are the deciding factor and shift in racial power.
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I'm only rank 25 in diamond (playing random, but will probably main Protoss) so I don't want to make any sweeping claims about overpoweredness, but in a lot of ways I can't agree with the people who say "Terran is fine and the stats prove it!".
There are certain things that can't be tracked by the stats, and the amount of skill required to pull a win is one of them. Because of this, I would contend that the average skill level of a Terran player is quite a bit lower than that of a Zerg player. I think if all Zerg players switched to Terran and all Terran players switched to Zerg, the now-Terran players would win almost all of the games.
It just kind of feels like Zerg players have to play chess and Terran players are playing checkers.
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Honestly when it comes to balance I have trust in Blizzard. They have always pulled it off with every RTS they have made.
The thing that does bother me is that when phase2 started the Raxs and warpgate took more time to create. This is an obvious showing that they feel there is an imbalance. Later they changed it back. So I think that Blizzard sees a problem somewhere (I think its a problem for Z) but they dont know how to fix it. Furthermore if they really thought Terran is to strong they would have changed it...
EDIT: I think Blizzard has the most data, experience and give s to most time to balancing of us all, so we should have a little fate
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For the people pointing out the winners of past tournaments, keep in mind when those tournaments took place. I havent read this whole thread yet, but I've seen a few post results of tournies that took place before patch 12, which nerfed the shit out of the Roach (1 supply to 2).
More recent tournaments are an entirely different story from what I've seen. T can so very easily afford to wall of and be extremely passive until they're at 200 supply, then steamroll over the enemy.
With tanks on high ground supported by cheap turrets/marines and maybe a thor or two depending on how late the game is, its pretty ridiculous. It's so easy to say "well exploit their immobility!" but in practice its not that simple a lot of the time. Getting a successful nydus worm in a T's base isnt really difficult, but if he spots it just once, that strategy will usually NEVER work again in that game because the T will have put a supply depot there and make sure to constantly check for upcoming worms.
Mutas are great, I love them. But for them to be effective enough to kill off enough units before defense comes they either have to be in heavy numbers, or at least upgraded. Thats a lot of investment for a harassing unit.
I have no faith Blizzard will recognize theres a problem here and do any changes with the races.. But I think better maps with less cliffs and chokes will help this problem somewhat.
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On July 21 2010 07:00 Ammunition wrote:
It just kind of feels like Zerg players have to play chess and Terran players are playing checkers.
Nice way of putting it, lol.
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I think what really needs to happen for the zerg race to gain more respectable potency is to have some type of anti-air unit that can be a reputable attacker at tier 1 so the zerg isn't pressed to rush for tech along with some other form of detection. Right now the ONLY detection zerg has consists of one special type of overlord that costs 150 minerals and 100 gas.
I could also argue that the roach's supply needs to be brought down to 1, but that will never happen. With any luck a new unit will be added in a expansion to allow a couple 1 supply units to be added in the zerg arsenal.
And of course before I get those letters, yes a overseer is 150 minerals and 100 gas. Because if you lose the overseer, you dont lose the 50/100 when it dies, you also lose the cost of the original overlord.
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My race is the hardest.
The race I lose to the most is the easiest.
That's pretty much all this poll says.
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On July 21 2010 07:48 Energizer wrote:
I think what really needs to happen for the zerg race to gain more respectable potency is to have some type of anti-air unit that can be a reputable attacker at tier 1 so the zerg isn't pressed to rush for tech along with some other form of detection. Right now the ONLY detection zerg has consists of one special type of overlord that costs 150 minerals and 100 gas.
I could also argue that the roach's supply needs to be brought down to 1, but that will never happen. With any luck a new unit will be added in a expansion to allow a couple 1 supply units to be added in the zerg arsenal.
And of course before I get those letters, yes a overseer is 150 minerals and 100 gas. Because if you lose the overseer, you dont lose the 50/100 when it dies, you also lose the cost of the original overlord.
Spore crawlers are detection. And getting 4 queens out isn't a bad thing.
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On July 21 2010 02:40 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2010 22:48 Sadistx wrote:On July 20 2010 21:38 Necrosjef wrote:On July 20 2010 21:14 Sadistx wrote:
How many threads are you zergs going to make to make yourself feel better about losing to terrans? I've seriously lost count. Your main argument is basically "tanks imba". I've yet to see a single replay confirming this, maybe because no one here is actually good enough to provide such high level reps. How about contribute something useful to the discussion or GTFO? You should probably take that advice and post some replays instead of the nonsense from your previous posts. Go watch Intotherainbow vs Dimaga http://day9tv.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dcBasic showcase of how Terran is broken.
What? Dimaga's 1a at a fortified position getting defeated shows terran is broken?
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I voted with the majority. Terran is just obnoxious. There's no way to pressure them early outside of a baneling bust, which is all in and risky. Scouting their critical tech is nearly impossible against a good terran.
Mid game, tanks just shut down any reasonable form of harass. Even if you get a drop or nydus, you can only do damage until they seige up, then you have to abort. Top that off with maps like kulas and lost temple where they can seige/thor your hatches... The only reason terrans ever lose to me is due to me hiding a spire, them just sucking at macro, or they went with infantry, which I can handle. I look at their gameplay and wonder how they could ever conceivably lose to me with all of the options they have at their disposal.
Protoss I would have said was balanced awhile ago, but now I'm not so sure anymore. If they let me macro more or less unharassed, it'll be a good game. But If the protoss pressures hard early I just cannot deal with it. I see the same things that happen to me happening to idra and some of the zerg streamers. Tester goes early aggression and or denies his nat expansion with some combo of zealots, pylons, or cannons and then everything just falls apart. What are you going to do, go one base against protoss? All in like idra did? Or try to hide an expansion? I haven't seen any good solutions yet. Even if they can't deny the expansion, they can so severely limit my economic ability that we end up even for the rest of the game, and that's terrible for zerg.
For that reason I think protoss is a bit better than zerg, not hopelessly so, and it does take some skill on the part of the protoss player to really bring it out, but it is there.
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Crap I accidently voted thinking the poll was "what is YOUR best and worst race" *face palm*. I would say terran, zerg, protoss in order of strength.
Terran--If nothing else, has many equally solid options, unlike the other races, eg mech/bio.
Zerg--May not show now, but they have great potential once player figured out timings and stuff, although it feels like terran has a much easier job keeping zerg in check than protoss.
Protoss--I don't see that jmuch of an improvement toss players can make. Nothing sticks out.
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Despite everyone agreeing that terran is the most overpowered race, I doubt anyone would agree on what it is exactly that makes terran overpowered. Tanks is a common citation, except if you removed tanks from the game, hellion/thor/marauder would still dominate zerg pre-broodlords in straight up fights.
I think the real problem here is a lack of diversity from zerg, and a great deal of diversity from terran, that highlights the distinction between the two races.
In any case, I'd like to see this poll again after the results of KotB tourney are released. =)
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protoss = awesome. they have DTs, VRs, Zealots, Blink and Charge, Storm, FFs, Probes (which i remember hearing are the best mining unit in the game), Warpgates, Immortals, and Colossi. AND Chrono Boost. no complains here
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On July 21 2010 07:49 Sunny Afternoon wrote:
My race is the hardest.
The race I lose to the most is the easiest.
That's pretty much all this poll says.
Its actually impossible to assume this from the data.. unless the percentage of people who play each race is no where near each other and 70% of people play zerg
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The reason I hate playing against a Terran is...
I always get my @ss wh00ped by those big fat tanks, even when I'm outnumbering them 3 to 1.
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First off, i am a Zerg player
Imo Terran is the strongest Race by now. They can defend very cost effective and without any tricks needed in the beginning, this is a solid play for them and the only way to break it is a cheese, which can easily be countered by a good player. Early game is no chance in ZvT
Midgame Tanks counter all ground units, and Mutalisks can not always be used for harass since big Marine Balls or Thor defence are very common.
Lategame, a big Terran Ball just Steamrolls everything you can throw against it.
Winning in ZvT for me means: expand faster than him, and hope he sucks at denying my expos. His army is stronger than mine at any time until i can slip enough extra eco without him realizing it. so basically if the Terran plays a solid standard game and doesn't fuck up, i feel like there is nothing i can do ot break him.
Worst Race imo is Protoss, while Zerg suck against Terran, imo they are very favorable in ZvP, constant Z harass is easy earlygame and destroys most P cheeses. Midgame the P Ball isn't very frightening and as long as you evade getting stormed too much a corresponding Z Army almost always feels stronger to me. The only thing you have to be careful of are some unusual positioned collosi or well defended/early Void Rays.
Most Protoss players are bad at phoenix air to air micro and so they lose often against mutalisks which is an easy win.
Lategame is pretty even imo.
So in ZvP i feel like P needs either a cheese win which i can counter, or he needs to be far more skilled at playing than his Z Opponent
can't say much about TvP but i don't see why T's denial capabilities should be worse there, biggest problem is still early and T's ability to play passive and still come out on top
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EPT
