EPT![[image loading]](http://www.nationaltheatrescotland.com/content/mediaassets/images/something_wicked_show_main2.jpg)
I will be discussing the flaws of the Protoss race, the many things that seem to have been over looked, and the many ideas that were withdrawn from the Protoss arsenal. There are many players who like me, love Protoss, for whatever reason it may be. In Broodwar, I loved Terran and stuck with that, there was just something about those damned siege tanks that captivated me. The reason I play Protoss in SC2 is that they are sleek and ‘clean’ looking, and the overall design of Protoss is fascinating, also, I was around 12 when I played Broodwar, and now I just don’t feel the same way about Terran, although I still LOVE those siege tanks.
Ever since the beginning of beta, and even in design, Protoss has been ripped and pulled apart (removing so many needed/better designed Protoss units and abilities) in so many ways I really cannot fathom how so many Protoss players are comfortable with what Protoss has become. Protoss play has been marginally just Zealot, Stalker, Sentry (possibly even dropping one of these due to hard counter, few stalkers cause of marauders etc) and 1 other unit type; void ray, immortal, phoenix, high templar, dark templar, carrier. Protoss has many really strong units on paper but in a real game scenario; they are not designed to cope, baring almost absolutely no use at all, except in un-competitive play and team games/FFA. Some players say that it’s good enough that they are used in the team/FFA, and that in those, they can be quite overpowered. The exact reason for this is that this unit is one dimensional, have 20 or they’re useless, rush them or their useless, get speed upgrade and this upgrade or it’s useless.
I’m not comfortable at all with the mentality that’s been thrown around Protoss design; Making so many units that aren’t either viable, or logical to get at almost any point, this is also the case with late Protoss tech. The Templar Archives should not have divided the Dark Templar from it’s reaches, this just makes DT’s way less viable and hardly ever used except sprinkled in for specific harassment or having a few in your army to do some extra damage. We have to throw down 2 tech buildings just to get a decent (ground) harassment unit? Meanwhile Zerg has lings on t1 and Terran has Reapers and Hellions which ultimately serve the same role as a Dark Templar, perhaps way better considering their cost, mobility and strategic use. Lings, Hellions and Reapers also have upgrades, extending their use later on into the game. Dark Templar can only suicide to form an even more useless unit dubbed the Archon, and forget about Dark Archons or even the “Twilight” Archon, they do not exist in SC2.
![[image loading]](http://www.sc2blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/archonconcept.jpg)
The Twilight Archon
My goal isn’t to rant and rave about how the other races over power the Protoss in ways, this is all due to the fact Protoss after their Cybernetics Core is not very well rounded and designed so far. Protoss units have always been designed to be slightly stronger than their counter parts, meaning less smaller/weak units and more larger/stronger ones. This has obviously been taken way too far, as now Protoss is just riddled with all these large support units that barely have a role because there are just WAY too many Protoss support units. The Collosus is by far the best at its support job, along with the sentry. Carriers, Archons, Dark Templar, High Templar, Immortal, and the Mothership are all ‘support’ units either because of the changes to the unit specifically or because of their tech. Now, the worst part about this is that these units cannot even fill their own role as support, Carriers, Motherships and Archons spontaneously combust upon being seen, the Immortal and High Templar are the only other viable support units because of their necessary damage/abilities. Also, the Immortal and Collosus not being able to shoot or avoid air is really quite a problem because Immortals are almost useless versus +armored units and Collosus are so much money/time and die so easily to Viking or corruptors, the only counter is blink stalkers or air support (either of which will lose you the game 50% of the time because you have to devote so much) and those aren’t going to be doing much damage if you’re getting shot in the face with stimmed concussive shells whilst trying to kill the Vikings which are just A-moved onto your colossus. It doesn’t really seem fair at all in comparison to the other races which have units that compliment eachother; medivac and Viking/banshee, broodlord and corruptor/muta. Carrier and Pheonix? Why would you do that?! Carrier, Void ray? Little better? But I’d rather go Pheonix Voidray, which I still wouldn’t go. Any intelligent player would just go either Pheonix or Void ray to compliment their army, (If they were going for air support instead of ground)
![[image loading]](http://ui10.gamespot.com/1225/ss18hires_2.jpg)
The Collosus and Reaver
The largest issue with Starcraft 2 as a whole is the change from basic damage to all of this specific damage stuff; it’s obviously extremely hard to balance because 1 unit will always do BLAH against that type of unit. In my humble opinion, base damage needs to go up drastically in comparison to the specialty damage, higher tiered units being countered by t1 “specialized” units doesn’t seem at all balanced. There is far too much emphasis on specialty damage almost completely nullifying the fact there is different tier units that should just have a lot higher base damage and armor to some what counter masses of “specific damage” low tier units. This seems a lot more fair; rewarding and penalizing each strategic decision, not making one better than the other. But if Blizzard wants to keep it this way, so be it, I think there will be much more balance issues with specialty damage.
Now I know some of you say that Protoss is over powered, and I can agree with the logic; Protoss is a majority and Protoss relies heavily on those 3 early 3 warp gate units, which seem to be the most balanced area of Protoss so far. With these 2 ideas being said, it’s easy for many to think that Protoss is so strong because of the widely used strategy that is either 4gate or 3 gate robo, both counterable none-the-less they are still the most strongest pushes a Protoss has right now. For one, I think addressing the issues in this thread would open up Protoss tech diversity and overall unit viability, while bringing down the overburdening need of those 3 strong gateway units.
However, if the useless Protoss units do get changed, there would possibly need to be a stat rework of the gateway units and the immortal seeing that Protoss players have been holding their ground pretty well even with a huge disadvantage, Patch 13 was the last straw, making Terran without dispute the dominator of the other 2 races. If most of these Terran players were half as good as most of the Protoss players, the overall potential limit for Terran(over 9000) would be seen, and would be fixed, OR the other Races would have been brought to the same terms. It is going to be impossible to balance when the maximum potential for success of each Race is widely varied.
Other Protoss players have already brought up good points about certain ideas and I’d have to agree and share their ideas with you.
Edit:
Zealots
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Quoted from http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25170777216&sid=5000
The upgrade for Zealots charge comes so late, but of course if it came earlier it'd be too strong.
Little known by some people, but the Charge upgrade on Twilight Council increases Zealots speed by about 20% (from 2.25, same as marauders and most units, to 2.75).
What I would like is if these upgrades are separated, and the +0.5 speed was researched at Cybernetics Core for really cheap, like concussive is. 50/50/60 sort of thing. Then Charge itself remains on Twilight Council for 150/150/140.
A lot of people have called for having charge itself on CyCore, or being cheaper, which I don't really think is called for..
The upgrade for Zealots charge comes so late, but of course if it came earlier it'd be too strong.
Little known by some people, but the Charge upgrade on Twilight Council increases Zealots speed by about 20% (from 2.25, same as marauders and most units, to 2.75).
What I would like is if these upgrades are separated, and the +0.5 speed was researched at Cybernetics Core for really cheap, like concussive is. 50/50/60 sort of thing. Then Charge itself remains on Twilight Council for 150/150/140.
A lot of people have called for having charge itself on CyCore, or being cheaper, which I don't really think is called for..
I really can agree with this, Zealots are strong but serve a limited role aside from tanking until you get charge, the upgrade SHOULD be split or moved to cyber core, Protoss early game is dull, predictable and very limited, having the capability of a speed-zealot timing would be nice. The fault itself is the Zealots default speed and melee role which it cannot exactly fulfill without charge, which is a costly and a late upgrade.
Concerns on Mothership
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126490
“From a design standpoint, the Mothership is one of my biggest letdowns in SC2. Originally designed to be a super unit capable of changing the tide of the battle and being a crucial part of any late game protoss army, the Mothership had several highly original spells that have since been either removed or changed drastically or moved to other units, and currently is one of the most unoriginal and boring units in the game. When I first saw that there could only be one Mothership at a time, I thought (besides that "Mothership" is a horribly lame name and I STILL can't believe that it's still called that!) that it was a horrible idea that was completely "un-StarCraftey" and some stupid idea stolen from Command and Conquer or one of those “other” RTSs. As time passed though I thought it could be a neat idea. It definitely makes Protoss more unique from the other races, and if done right it could be really cool. Unfortunately I subscribe to the idea that the Mothership right now does NOT do it right and not only is a useless unit, but a horrible missed opportunity to make a really cool unit.
If the Mothership truly was what it was originally designed to be (a large super unit that was key to Protoss lategame), it would allow for several different playstyles and be accessible in the late game and also a viable follow-up to several early and mid-game strategies. I believe the Mothership should be able to serve several (or at least more than ONE) different roles in the late game (either as a great support unit AND a great defensive unit, or at least a decent one of each), and to truly make the investment to get a Mothership worth it.”
“From a design standpoint, the Mothership is one of my biggest letdowns in SC2. Originally designed to be a super unit capable of changing the tide of the battle and being a crucial part of any late game protoss army, the Mothership had several highly original spells that have since been either removed or changed drastically or moved to other units, and currently is one of the most unoriginal and boring units in the game. When I first saw that there could only be one Mothership at a time, I thought (besides that "Mothership" is a horribly lame name and I STILL can't believe that it's still called that!) that it was a horrible idea that was completely "un-StarCraftey" and some stupid idea stolen from Command and Conquer or one of those “other” RTSs. As time passed though I thought it could be a neat idea. It definitely makes Protoss more unique from the other races, and if done right it could be really cool. Unfortunately I subscribe to the idea that the Mothership right now does NOT do it right and not only is a useless unit, but a horrible missed opportunity to make a really cool unit.
If the Mothership truly was what it was originally designed to be (a large super unit that was key to Protoss lategame), it would allow for several different playstyles and be accessible in the late game and also a viable follow-up to several early and mid-game strategies. I believe the Mothership should be able to serve several (or at least more than ONE) different roles in the late game (either as a great support unit AND a great defensive unit, or at least a decent one of each), and to truly make the investment to get a Mothership worth it.”
Throughout said thread, there are many good suggestions for the Mothership. My favorite is; giving it 2 or 3 different toggle-able abilities, psi field (immobile), cloak (mobile), and the controversial shield battery-esque ability. I’d definitely have to say I would prefer a stasis like ability instead of shield battery, but Statis/Vortex could also be transferred to another unit, so who knows.
Tweaking the Mothership’s speed alone would make this unit more viable in the way an Arbiter was, if the speed does not get changed it will remain a large death beacon only capable of defensive play(logically useless in other words)
Carrier Concerns
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=127452
“I had really completely forgot the unit is even in the game (Im 75 % Zerg Player, 25% Protoss). Mostly because it is one of the units that wasnt touched at all by patches and untaled and even UNPLAYED in nearly any high/pro level play.
Then I thought: Doesnt that mean that it can become TOO good because it wasnt really tested during beta so Blizzard never really saw there problem?”
This is 100% true, although the Carrier has undergone 1 public change during the design and that is replacing a unit called the “Tempest” which looked exactly like the current carrier. However, the Carrier in its current design is far from “too good” it’s actually really too bad to use in serious situations.
“I had really completely forgot the unit is even in the game (Im 75 % Zerg Player, 25% Protoss). Mostly because it is one of the units that wasnt touched at all by patches and untaled and even UNPLAYED in nearly any high/pro level play.
Then I thought: Doesnt that mean that it can become TOO good because it wasnt really tested during beta so Blizzard never really saw there problem?”
This is 100% true, although the Carrier has undergone 1 public change during the design and that is replacing a unit called the “Tempest” which looked exactly like the current carrier. However, the Carrier in its current design is far from “too good” it’s actually really too bad to use in serious situations.
The Tempest (earlier idea for Carrier replacement)
"In comparison to the carrier, the tempest was slightly weaker, but cost fewer resources to build."
(^ already a huge reason not to doubt the viability of the Tempest)
The tempest had powerful shields and, while having no armaments of its own, carried a number of small fighter-type drones called shuriken that launched, surrounded and swarmed a target, doing little damage individually but significant damage when combined whilst maneuvering rapidly, making it difficult to destroy. The drones could be auto-built with a right click, a behavior which was carried over to the carrier.
The shuriken made melee attacks.
Special Shields
The tempest was strong against ground targets, but was ill-equipped to handle air-to-air encounters; it had poor air defense as its shields did not activate against air attacks, but the shields took little damage from ground attacks.
First thoughts are: This is a really cool replacement for the Carrier, and although it may not have “worked” in their eyes, the current Carrier is far less “working” than I think this idea would have been. During the beta especially, players will most definitely experiment with new units, coming to find a use for a unit that is far in the tech tree is vital for feedback purposes. The SC2 community was not even given the chance to experiment with this unit. For one, this unit is so similar in design that the only difference is the name, its interceptors were melee and the Tempest had way better maneuverability. Having this unit be almost the same as a carrier, but weaker and cheaper would support Protoss making phoenix and voidray for air support along with the Tempest to have something to combat A-A, and would also open up the possibility to get a Mothership because you now have air support. I cannot say if I want a Carrier or Tempest, because it should have been for the community to decide seeing as Carriers in SC2 are not nearly as formidable as in BW.
The major problem is not the unit themselves but the fact that nothing has been done to create a use for what seems like wasted pixels. Ultimately, this is almost the exact idea that should replace the current carrier, a weaker but more resource viable unit, also increasing the range slightly (If still too weak)of the Tempest would assist with many problems the Carriers currently face; being killed by ground units way too quickly. This being said there is hardly any risk anymore to micro and kill these larger, high tier air units whilst there is an opposing ground army aside from having some units force fielded (worst case scenario) or stormed (horrible in comparison to EMP or Fungal Growth)
According to Dustin Bowder, "the Tempest didn't feel right and that there was too much of an emotional connection with the original unit(Carrier)."
The “Carrier” and the “Tempest” are the idealistically, the same unit, deciding to keep its name should not warrant it’s own death because of its previous success and (more so) viability. Also, I think the emotional connection was to the design and look of the SC1 Carrier, the latter not being at all the same anyway.
Dark Templar/High Templar
Everyone knows the fix for HT/DT viability is making one tech building open these two units as it was in BW, the current tech route (Cybernetics Core -> Twilight Council -> Either Templar Archives (logical) or Dark Shrine (No upgrades, very situational) )for these two units is really quite a blunder to Protoss versatility and overall unit viability.
Archons
With no option of ‘Dark’ Archons, Archon viability and diversity has gone down the drain. Archons in Starcraft 2 are almost equally as much a waste of resources as a Mothership, both of which will be killed before almost any use can be made, the Mothership less so but still a sad development considering just one Arbiter did a hell of a better job than the Mothership, and it’s a fu$king Protoss MOTHER. SHIP.
Quotes on the versatility and diversity issue.
Artosis sits down with former SC1 Korean pro Tester to talk about his experiences with SC2, strategies, and the issue of balance.
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http://www.scforall.com/sctv/sc_tv01.asp?mNum=s03&movNum=437
Tester gives us a peek into the Korean servers and their views on the game, the
strategies, and balance. He states that Terran is virtually unstoppable right now if played right by someone coming from the SC1 world. When being asked about Void Ray builds against Terran, which have been slowly causing havoc in PvT since Patch 10, Tester shrugs it off like its no big deal. He states it isn't a big problem on the Korean servers because everyone knows how to counter it, since Void Rays were used since the beginning on the Korean servers.
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If he [Tester] plays Terran, and if somebody uses Voids Rays against him, he'll say: "Thank you very much, I'll kick your ass”
“He states that Terran is virtually unstoppable right now if played right by someone coming from the SC1 world.”
Tester gives us a peek into the Korean servers and their views on the game, the
strategies, and balance. He states that Terran is virtually unstoppable right now if played right by someone coming from the SC1 world. When being asked about Void Ray builds against Terran, which have been slowly causing havoc in PvT since Patch 10, Tester shrugs it off like its no big deal. He states it isn't a big problem on the Korean servers because everyone knows how to counter it, since Void Rays were used since the beginning on the Korean servers.
Quote
If he [Tester] plays Terran, and if somebody uses Voids Rays against him, he'll say: "Thank you very much, I'll kick your ass”
“He states that Terran is virtually unstoppable right now if played right by someone coming from the SC1 world.”
Fragster.de interview with Idra
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=127980
I often heard players saying, that Protoss is to weak. What do you think about that?
IdrA: Personally, I feel that Protoss is very, very strong early game but, at least vs Zerg, becomes ridiculously weak as the game progresses. I don't know as much about the PvT matchup.
How would you rate the first patches Blizzard published? Did they make improvements?
IdrA: I've really disliked a lot of the balance changes Blizzard is making, actually. It feels to me like they've been balancing matchups by making one race overpowered early game, and the other overpowered late game. This made lead to a balanced win rate but it creates terrible game quality, and in the long term it'll be imbalanced as people get a better feel for early game defensive timings.
I often heard players saying, that Protoss is to weak. What do you think about that?
IdrA: Personally, I feel that Protoss is very, very strong early game but, at least vs Zerg, becomes ridiculously weak as the game progresses. I don't know as much about the PvT matchup.
How would you rate the first patches Blizzard published? Did they make improvements?
IdrA: I've really disliked a lot of the balance changes Blizzard is making, actually. It feels to me like they've been balancing matchups by making one race overpowered early game, and the other overpowered late game. This made lead to a balanced win rate but it creates terrible game quality, and in the long term it'll be imbalanced as people get a better feel for early game defensive timings.
Quotes from Over-nerfed by Artosis
This talks about Zerg, but I would like to emphasize the idea that having less viable units can in-turn make certain portions a lot stronger, like how Protoss has been focused on the 3 early Warp Gate units + 1 other type.
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http://www.mymym.com/en/news/18583.html
This is a huge difference, especially when you consider that one of the Zerg units, the Ultralisk, is completely inferior to any other choice the Zerg have. This brings us down to eight units. Why does this make the Zerg better on the Asian server?
Streamlined learning. This is all that the Zerg has to work with. That means, the best units, ideas and strategies boil down much faster. There is simply less to test. StarCraft II is a very complex game, with many, many factors contributing to any situation. The Zerg have less of these factors. You have a very limited number of options. This doesn't make playing the Zerg easier, per sey, it just makes figuring out how to player the Zerg right easier. While other races are still around with three to five extra units, the Zerg already know what combination work and don't work. This makes every practice game a Zerg player plays worth more, as they are already past the testing phase.
This is a huge difference, especially when you consider that one of the Zerg units, the Ultralisk, is completely inferior to any other choice the Zerg have. This brings us down to eight units. Why does this make the Zerg better on the Asian server?
Streamlined learning. This is all that the Zerg has to work with. That means, the best units, ideas and strategies boil down much faster. There is simply less to test. StarCraft II is a very complex game, with many, many factors contributing to any situation. The Zerg have less of these factors. You have a very limited number of options. This doesn't make playing the Zerg easier, per sey, it just makes figuring out how to player the Zerg right easier. While other races are still around with three to five extra units, the Zerg already know what combination work and don't work. This makes every practice game a Zerg player plays worth more, as they are already past the testing phase.
These ideas as a whole are 99% true, Terran is the most refined, diverse and versatile race in Starcraft 2 right now, combined with the right player, you are 99% unstoppable because of how well every unit, upgrade and mechanic works and compliments eachother. Our goal as the Starcraft 2 Community is to see balance between race diversity and versatility, the two governing traits of any races overall design. All this talk about imbalanced units and such is nonsensical when what really matters is the much broader ideas, and they most definitely need to be polished and thoroughly looked at and discussed. Thank you very much for your time and patience listening to my feedback.
