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HT/DT:
This branch looks fine to me, even if it's less used than the robo/stargate branches. HT and DT plays different roles, and you don't want necessarily to build HT if you're going DT. So I dont see why merging templar archives and dark shrine could be a buff. The main concern I think is that getting psionic storm is very long and expensive, although HT are (almost) only get for this spell. If you compare the time/cost to get EMP vs storm, and their respective effectiveness. It looks a bit unfair. Maybe should HT get another spell? or storm upgrade cost/time should be reduced?
Carrier:
They are just like the Battlecruiser for the Terran. A kind of units you can consider in 2v2 if the game is becoming very very long. I dont think they need a remake. They are slower than VRs but have better range. Making them "Tempest" wont make them better : they already outrange turrets and any ground anti-air units, so they don't especially need the special Tempest shield.
Mothership:
I agree : Big fail. This is obvious to anyone. There's already a lot of suggestion thread about this, so i wont add mine. The main flaws IMO : this unit need mobility to be something else than a desesperate temporary expensive defense. This unit is also too much vulnerable to EMP/Neural Parasite/Feedback.
PvT:
VR are often used in PvT just because EMP+Concussive shells owns every early ground composition from the protoss and are so easy to get. VRs outrange EMP and force the Terran do do something else. However even if PvT look a bit unfair on the paper, this matchup doesnt seem to be such an issue : If you look at competitions like the HDH invitational, there's no terran player after RO8, while there's 2 protoss players on the podium.
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I enjoyed the read. and lots of the replies were good too 
and i agree wholeheartedly with the the large majority of what's been said.
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you can't compare the cost and timing of tech upgrades from one race to another. stimpack is so universally essential that it has to be considered standard for terran infantry.
i see many well known high level players saying that terran are the strongest, with no real evidence to suggest that this is the case. these same players are still usually beating terran players in tournaments. do these players not believe in a winning mentality and picking the race which gives them the best chance of winning?
if we actually heard the story from the side of the terran it would be easier to swallow.
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buff up protoss
and terran a bit weaker?
i find playing PvT its hard to win when terran turtles and crap.
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also, thor is bs
thor can attack air
colossi cant(10 RANGE WTF SPLASH WTF) it should have long range/no splash or splash/short range wtf!!
thor can be repaired
colossi cant
hey bro just bring OVER9000 scv's and repair the thor
colossi wana heal bro? oh wait all u got is shields bl there
thor has a special ability which can stun and do OVER9000 dmg
colossi has no special ability
hey bro got ultras? np ill just thor ur ass
the things colossi has an advantage over thor is walk over cliffs, splash
why can colossi get shot by air but thors cant?
id rather colossi cant walk up cliffs and ill just use warp prisms (well see more drops or micro cause we never see this unit) and cant get attacked by air it would save me so much worries haha
why can medivacs pick up thors, but phoenix cant... thats bs lol arent protoss supposed to be way hi tech compared to terran lol
anyway my proper post is above a couple of posts this is just a rant cos thors rip everything
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I play toss, and while I don't think i should be one to try to balance the game i see 1 or 2 things I don't really like. DT tech is a silly route to go, and a huge investment for a high risk/reward. I'd rather have a huge investment in to something else that isn't so risky and I'll be using for the rest of the game instead of the next 1 minute. All of the upgrades for blink/charge feel too expensive and too high on the tech tree... so either earlier on the tree, or stay where at with a reduced cost...(hallucination is fine where its at), and I wish one of those things would change just a little, and I don't think it would break the toss..
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On May 29 2010 12:46 Arrian wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with you about designating "templar" and "colossus" and others as support units.
Look at BW PvZ. Basically, the Forge FE was a great way for Protoss to both build econ and tech safely. What were they teching to? Storm. Because Storm was the anathema to zerg. Storm in PvZ wasn't the support to the protoss army, it was the tip of the spear, the leading attack, the backbone and the most important aspect of the mid through late game PvZ army. Once a toss army runs out of storm and if the zerg is still coming, the toss army retreats.
It is in fact the units around the templar that are the support, the meatshields, the distractors. This is pretty much the same as the colossus and the immortal and storm again. Those are the lead attackers and the most important parts.
A sentry is a support unit. It doesn't do much damage, but its spells help other units be more effective, which is the definition of support. The guardian shield and the forcefield both make other protoss units more effective or opposing units less effective, not lead the attack.
Kind of flips a whole bunch of your argument around imo.
A fire support unit will always deal higher damage than standard units or it would be useless, so what you're describing is exactly what fire support is.
Support units are the ones that are vulnerable in combat on their own, that's why they are relegated to the role of support and avoid direct contact with the enemy and HTs very much fit that.
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On May 29 2010 21:17 tarsier wrote:
you can't compare the cost and timing of tech upgrades from one race to another. stimpack is so universally essential that it has to be considered standard for terran infantry.
i see many well known high level players saying that terran are the strongest, with no real evidence to suggest that this is the case. .
You can't compare the cost and timing of tech upgrades from one race to another? What kind of statement is that? lol, Stim and Concussive shells have to be 2 of the best upgrades in the game for 2 of the best t1 units in the game for a really cheap price. There really aren't many high skilled Terran players, as many pro's have said, and even the ones who are good are an easy example. Watch some replays of QXC, Sen, Brat Ok or Strelok, the potential for winning and being able to react and counter is a lot better. Evidence is all around you, open your eyes.
Stim and Concussive Shells > Charge, even Concussive Shells > Charge in the degree its way cheaper and available a lot earlier on. How can you even dispute that Protoss lacks? Terran has two of the best special ability upgrades (whilst not changing barely any tech) you can get 5 minutes into the game, 1 makes it so you can almost always retreat or burst down; stim, the other making it so your enemy can't retreat or advance as efficiently, concussive shells.
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On May 30 2010 00:02 JaspluR wrote:
also, thor is bs
thor can attack air
colossi cant(10 RANGE WTF SPLASH WTF) it should have long range/no splash or splash/short range wtf!!
thor can be repaired
colossi cant
hey bro just bring OVER9000 scv's and repair the thor
colossi wana heal bro? oh wait all u got is shields bl there
thor has a special ability which can stun and do OVER9000 dmg
colossi has no special ability
hey bro got ultras? np ill just thor ur ass
the things colossi has an advantage over thor is walk over cliffs, splash
why can colossi get shot by air but thors cant?
id rather colossi cant walk up cliffs and ill just use warp prisms (well see more drops or micro cause we never see this unit) and cant get attacked by air it would save me so much worries haha
why can medivacs pick up thors, but phoenix cant... thats bs lol arent protoss supposed to be way hi tech compared to terran lol
anyway my proper post is above a couple of posts this is just a rant cos thors rip everything
Thor is fine and fits a completely different role than the colossus. You can only compare the two under the umbrella of large mechanical units. That's it.
At least the Thor doesn't get to use its range 10 air attack against colossi.
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Good read. I pretty much agree with everything.
MS is bad everyone knows that.
I was looking forward to the carrier but sadly it's like an overpriced balloon
Archon, sick look, dies in a second.
I miss the reavers 
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ive been saying this forever. glad someone is actually bringing this up in a wellwritten post, cuz im too lazy
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My main gripe with the Protoss army is that (imo) everything revolves around basically 2-3 units. The sentry is essentially the lynch pin to the Protoss army because it is the 1 unit that you HAVE to have in every situation. Getting attacked by MMM? GS to knock down marine damage and FF to cut their army in half. Getting surrounded by mass lings/blings? FF to create an artificial choke for your zealots not to get surrounded. Mutas in your base? GS to reduce their splash damage. Getting attacked by a massive tier 1.5 Protoss army? FF to cut their zealots off from their stalkers, retreat, then pwn the zealots.
Also when you get into the mid-late game you then have to rely on the Colossus or HT. There is no way around using these units because both Z and T reach critical mass so easily and once they do you can kiss your zealots and stalkers goodbye. In fact I dont even know if stalkers have a critical mass... theory would state that they should, but they are just so sub-par at everything they do that it's kinda pointless. Anti-air? meh. Harass? Mutas, banshees, speedlings, reapers, and hellions all do it better. Ranged attack? meh. The only thing that stalkers are good for are basically for being a meatshield for your colossi/ht and shooting down vikings or corruptors. And even at being a meatshield chargelots do it better for cheaper. It's a shame chargelots can't levitate.
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I been holding myself back from posting something similar to this, well here goes.
I feel protoss is severely lacking when compared to terran and riddled with many game breaking gaps in the counter line up.
Immortals counter hard hitters such as siege tanks/marauders but both of these are always accompanied by marines rendering immortals practically useless against anything other then lolroaches or stalker spam. I mainly only use them for their high damage which is also fairly ineffective with their short range and slow movement speed they are guarantied to be stuck behind your stalker crescent walking back and forth trying to find a gap. They also require upgraded weapons to effectively counter marauders. I believe using just ONE of the following suggestions would be simple solutions to increase the immortals effectiveness:
A: Increasing immortals range. (so what siege tanks will still out range them)
B: having the hardened shield effect always apply even after shields are down. (it doesn't make logical sense but it makes sense role wise for a tank)
C: Adding splash damage to the immortals attacks. (protoss needs this to counter early bioballs)
High Templars
A: Decrease storm time to two 2 second and double the damage done per second. (Allows for only half the damage to be negated by moving out.
B: Remove the cool down on storm. (this allows for multiple insta-casts on the same spot one shotting things, it wouldn't be anymore over powered then one multiple seige tank volley)
C: Increase the casting range on storm. (I often find that when moving out offensively with HTs my other units will enter the battle first and take heavy casualties due to having to wait till the Hts catch up and get my storms in)
Archons are not viable due to cost/time versus effectiveness.
A: increase damage and splash versus bio to that of a seige tank. (now this may seem overpowered at first due to mobility,no deadzone, and ability to strike air but think about this thoroughly. Archons are higher teir then siege tanks cost twice as much in terms of production time and cost. so you would be seeing them very late in the game and not in giant blobs. also the most important thing to consider is that archons have a very short range no where near that of a siege tanks, so they will run up to the front lines fire one volley and evaporate immediately. this change will also allow them to hard counter mutalisks like intended)
B:Increase health by at least 100 and leave the shields as they are.(much more conservative)
Carriers
A: Grant them the anti-ground shield tempests had. (might be too overpowered)
B: Reduce the cost and build time slightly (more conservative approach)
Collosi are very useful but they are too fragile due to the AA weakness that was given to them which makes sense logic wise but breaks protoss endgame and here's why. protoss anti-air is by far the weakest in my own opinion, corruptors and vikings far out power anything protoss can throw at them not to mention even if we did have an equally powerful unit it would be very difficult to obtain enough of them and enough collosi which are absolutely necessary to take down massed ground units. now if you can see the problem here it is for you layed out:
protoss collosi > other races ground
other races air > collosi
what protoss unit > other races air? none.
the best example of this is in PvZ, say your opponent go mass lings n hydras, you need to get collosi, in order to win you absolutely must attack with your first 1-2 collosi during your small window that the zerg hasn't established air yet, that window is very narrow because good zerg players know this and once corruptors hit the field its over and you no longer stand a chance as you can't fight back against the corruptors. this also applies to vikings.
my only possible fix for this other then some good AA units would be
A: to grant the collosi the increased range w/o needing the upgrade in order to increase the size of that window.
B: to remove the air weakness collosi suffer from. (when compared to the thor which can hit air and ground and wasn't given an absurd weakness it seems weak,but the poor ultralisk needs to gain the zealots charge renamed ultralisk charge)
Phoenix, I feel aren't a good enough counter to mutalisks and here's why: say you scout your opponent and notice a spire, you immediately throw down a starport, when his spire finished he gets to create as many mutalisks as he can afford while your stuck building one at a time. guess what mutalisks build faster then phoenix do unless boosted but will still be out produced numerically too so therefore phoenix will always be out produced by the zerg heavily if used reactionary so what other option do you have left? building phoenix from the get go (like nony does) which does even up production and effectively counter mutalisks but its like rolling the dice, what if they go hydra and no spire tech? gg right there. also if you hunt overlords they now know to start getting ready to counter phoenix and will just recreate the over lords easily. I also feel the lack of anti ground weakens protoss's ability to harass, I'd pick mutas and or vikings over phoenix any day. gravitation beam while able to damage workers pales in comparison to the ability to kill workers in large quantities like mutas or transformed vikings and they have the added bonus: being able damage buildings.
A: give them a low damage air to ground attack.
B: increase the cost of gravitation beam but make it a small AoE. (should even out worker killing potential)
C: grant them a strong AA attack instead of bonus light. (too help against everything else, there are other air units besides mutas that protoss needs help against....)
Voidrays while they do a good job of destroying buildings, don't fulfill their role as anti capital ship like vikings and corruptors due to the charge up time leaving protoss anti air in critical state. only possible solution i can come up with is granting the void ray full charge on either massive or amored targets not including buildings from the start and resting this instantly gained charge if switched onto to a non massive or armored target. against non massive or armored the void ray would work the same as it does now and the charge could be transferred from target to target if gained like this. wierd and probably to confusing for people just starting the game, but only thing I can think of. to simply it for noobs it could have a different animation, like a red beam against capitol ships since the voids rays description does in fact mention both void power and regular protoss power.
Dark Templar
A: reduce gas cost (DTs feel like an all in strategy to me)
B: reduce dark shrine build time by a decent amount. (anything to make them more viable)
C: add DTs to the templar archives and discard the darkshrine, but change the requirement to create overseers from a hive to an evolution chamber. (as it would make DTs op agiasnt zerg, terran have scan early enough.)
Please feel free to comment on these, I'd really like to know which of these you agree with and or don't with reasons why.
I'm also going to post this on blizzards feedback forum now that my thoughts are written and just a simple copy and paste away.
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Give carriers more range, say 9? They deploy mini ships ffs! That would give them a key advantage to make them useful
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On June 02 2010 07:51 Anon06 wrote:
Phoenix
Phoenixes do work against muta, however if zerg is going something like mass mutas off 2 bases, protoss needs 2 stargates to catch up in air production. Overcommitting to phoenixes shouldn't really be a problem, because with phoenixes it's easy to check zerg's unit mix.
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On June 02 2010 08:52 Cerion wrote:
Phoenixes do work against muta, however if zerg is going something like mass mutas off 2 bases, protoss needs 2 stargates to catch up in air production. Overcommitting to phoenixes shouldn't really be a problem, because with phoenixes it's easy to check zerg's unit mix.
Well I said they work if you start early (which believe to be risky) not if you react. generally I notice zerg start off with about 4 muta when spire pops. also your quote on me kinda failed, might want to edit that.
edit: oh and thnx for the feedback.
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On May 29 2010 12:56 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 12:46 Arrian wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with you about designating "templar" and "colossus" and others as support units.
Look at BW PvZ. Basically, the Forge FE was a great way for Protoss to both build econ and tech safely. What were they teching to? Storm. Because Storm was the anathema to zerg. Storm in PvZ wasn't the support to the protoss army, it was the tip of the spear, the leading attack, the backbone and the most important aspect of the mid through late game PvZ army. Once a toss army runs out of storm and if the zerg is still coming, the toss army retreats.
It is in fact the units around the templar that are the support, the meatshields, the distractors. This is pretty much the same as the colossus and the immortal and storm again. Those are the lead attackers and the most important parts.
A sentry is a support unit. It doesn't do much damage, but its spells help other units be more effective, which is the definition of support. The guardian shield and the forcefield both make other protoss units more effective or opposing units less effective, not lead the attack.
Kind of flips a whole bunch of your argument around imo. It really only reverses my comments about whatever units I said were support actually, which isn't most of my argument. My argument is that these units are so weak at their job alone they need to be there with other units and Protoss has too many units that rely on another or such late, or specific tech, this is the problem, lack of versatility drops the overall diversity that Protoss HAS but can't unlock unless you fast expand which currently isn't always possible. Regardless this changes nothing saying units are support or not, fact is they are used as 'support' because they do poorly alone at their role.
ahm... maybe you should not be fast expanding and instead spend your minerals on the 2 geysers in your main and tech harder?
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I really like the idea of putting the zealot speed on Cyber Core.
I actually didn't know the charge upgrade tweaked the zealot movement speed outside of charge usage.
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On June 02 2010 12:15 Anon06 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 08:52 Cerion wrote:
Phoenixes do work against muta, however if zerg is going something like mass mutas off 2 bases, protoss needs 2 stargates to catch up in air production. Overcommitting to phoenixes shouldn't really be a problem, because with phoenixes it's easy to check zerg's unit mix.
Well I said they work if you start early (which believe to be risky) not if you react. generally I notice zerg start off with about 4 muta when spire pops.
They do work as a reaction, but your ground forces will have to hold the fort while you get enough phoenixes up
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EPT
