EPTProtoss: My Life for Hire - Page 2
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
OP: I really like your post and it has some good points. carriers and motherships both need a role. I also do not like the templar tech. I think its true what you said about the gateway units and the warpgates. they are the most exciting and refined units in the protoss arsenal plus the warpgate mechanic is really powerfull and awesome. What I also like are phoenixes, voidrays and colossi. all nice support units in my opinion. I also agree on the bonus damage part. I think that SC2 needs the bonus damage system, thinking of phoenixes or immortals. but in the case of the immortal its way too much. the immortal is allready a slow unit and its shields do allready soak up most of the damage from the units it counters while it does not function against units that it shouldnt counter. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
I agree about the Archons and Carriers (LOL they explode on being seen). They need some work to make them an actual choice in certain situations. Immortals should be buffed in some small regard. Your point about 5X50minerals marines eating 1 250minerals/100gas Immortal is really well made. I would think to either raise the base damage a hair, or reduce the cost to 200m or even 225m. Especially since the 250 minerals Terran has to spend is so easily acquired with MULE. The only good answer to Mass infantry is Colossus, and I know as a Terran player, just have your already made Starport with Reactor crank out a couple rounds of Vikings- and you've added enough to fight Colossus readily. My only real hope is that Blizzard has something up its sleeve for expansions with all 3 races. Though lately its been nothing but a string of disappointments. | ||
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HoroBoro
United States91 Posts
Too many protoss units have overlapping roles: Collosus overlaps with Templar (both aoe, which is why I think no one uses templar - who wants to spell when you can just point and shoot?) Zealot overlaps with Immortal (ranged shield or melee shield?) Phoenix overlaps with Stalker (ground aa/harass or air aa/harass?) DT with Carrier and Mothership (all pretty much cheesy/all in/unused) The only unique units seem to be void rays and sentry which are touted as imba and overpowered by other races only because certain strategies have come out for them that are creative and hard but not impossible to counter. Of course we have the observer and the warp prism - one which is good because it basically hasn't changed at all since it's humble beginnings in sc1 and another which is basically a shuttle/ flying pylon that costs 200 minerals. Terran have marines - high dps low hp ground unit Maurader - unit that slows other units, meat shield Hellion - melts light ground units Reaper - cheesy harass Ghost - super offensive caster unit (WITH 4 SPELLS) Raven - super defensive caster unit (with 3 spells) Tank - ground ranged superstar Thor - badass 1v1 unit/base destroyer/light air demolisher Viking - air ranged superstar Medivac - heavy armored healer (only transport with 1 armor) Banshee - cheesy win button - if that fails, becomes great damage when added to your army Battlecrusier - cheesy all in Granted, I took some liberties in describing the units, but it's pretty clear - to me at least, that Terran has greater flexibility. Where toss has a few viable builds, Terran may have many. Where is the creativity? Just because it's an advanced race from outer space doesn't mean you can skimp on the development. In fact, I am confused on how Protoss has "highly advanced technology" and yet Terran seems to have all the shiny new toys. Someone in Protoss R&D needs to be sent to Char. | ||
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wankey
98 Posts
However, I do strongly suggest to you to remember where we are at the game. We are in beta or nearing beta. Trying to get a 50:50 matchup should be the #1 thing to do during a beta so when you release, at least you enter with a 50:50 matchup ratio so that one race isn't overly powered over another. Once the game is released however, then you can really start getting stat tracking with millions of games between good, bad, excellent people. It's a long journey in balance, and this is an entirely new game from Brood War. We'll have to see how things play out and I'm quite sure that this game will be one of the most balanced games come the third expansion. | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On May 29 2010 14:38 wankey wrote: I understand your points very clearly and they are well made. I have a few points to add for Zerg as well as I feel that are probable one of the worst designed races to be created. However, I do strongly suggest to you to remember where we are at the game. We are in beta or nearing beta. Trying to get a 50:50 matchup should be the #1 thing to do during a beta so when you release, at least you enter with a 50:50 matchup ratio so that one race isn't overly powered over another. Once the game is released however, then you can really start getting stat tracking with millions of games between good, bad, excellent people. It's a long journey in balance, and this is an entirely new game from Brood War. We'll have to see how things play out and I'm quite sure that this game will be one of the most balanced games come the third expansion. Unfortunately, balance does not equate to interesting, dynamic gameplay. What Blizzard should focus on is REALLY differentiating each and every single race's core army composition in how they move, mass, and attack rather than just aiming for strict balance. On top of that, balance should be designed around CONTROL, not just numbers. | ||
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Jimmy Raynor
902 Posts
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Fuspup
United States17 Posts
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
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Gentlebite
United States132 Posts
Clearly Terran is so Pumped up in SC2, that Zerg and Protoss are lacking something in return | ||
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Egnarts
Denmark33 Posts
We are in beta or nearing beta. Eh, it's been beta for months, if not over a year at this point, closed beta is over long ago. We're in the public beta phase right now, and soon to be open beta. Public beta usualy means stress testing and play testing, the fundamentals is in place, eg. no more new units to be thrown in, just tweaking. But I doagree that Zerg is feels pretty generic, they've got no cool gimmics at all, just macro heavy mechanics, that is all. I guess they want to save the "cool" stuff for zerg till the expansion comes around. Untill then I think it's perfectly legit to crritizise one races unit diversion. I can honestly say I build archons, void rays, carriers, warp prism, motherships & dark templars in 5% or less of my games(probably even less in most cases). So what does that leave me? Zlots, stalkers, sentries, observer, collossus, immortals, phoenix & high templars For obevious reason zlots, stalkers, sentries and observers is pretty close to 100% appearance in my games(Counting out the games where I never reach cybernetics for whatever reason!). It's a tad harder for me to guesstimate how much I use the three last units however, I would guess one in every 10 games, maybe even less. What i'm trying to say is, yeah, protoss got a pretty diverse mix of units, but if it's only a handfull of those units your using it doesnt really matter how diverse that mix is. Does that mean the units I dont use as often isn't good? Ofcouse not, they have their uses, for sure. I just find their rolls overlap the other units(which imo, does the job better). Either that, or they are too easily countered for the roll they fit contra the effort I have to put into fitting that roll into my playstyle. Would I like to see the rest of the units more viable? Sure, but I'm not holding my breath. If I were playing terran, would the list be similar? I'm pretty sure it would be, even if terran got this "awesome diversity" too theres still units I wouldn't utilize often. And imo theres still some units for terran that needs tweaking, one way or another. | ||
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danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
On May 29 2010 12:46 Arrian wrote: I'm not sure I agree with you about designating "templar" and "colossus" and others as support units. Look at BW PvZ. Basically, the Forge FE was a great way for Protoss to both build econ and tech safely. What were they teching to? Storm. Because Storm was the anathema to zerg. Storm in PvZ wasn't the support to the protoss army, it was the tip of the spear, the leading attack, the backbone and the most important aspect of the mid through late game PvZ army. Once a toss army runs out of storm and if the zerg is still coming, the toss army retreats. It is in fact the units around the templar that are the support, the meatshields, the distractors. This is pretty much the same as the colossus and the immortal and storm again. Those are the lead attackers and the most important parts. A sentry is a support unit. It doesn't do much damage, but its spells help other units be more effective, which is the definition of support. The guardian shield and the forcefield both make other protoss units more effective or opposing units less effective, not lead the attack. Kind of flips a whole bunch of your argument around imo. Dont agree with your examples. Kinda agree with you're definition of support (in game) tho. I would say the roles for almost every unit SC1/SC2 change according to specific moments in game, lets say when engaging enemy forces or between battles or harassing and even deflecting attacks and such. The roles change throughout the entire game. A high templar could be both, supporter or supported, it all depends on your tactic ( the way your'e using it ). If you are "Storm Dropping", a Zealot will become the supporter by absorbing the initial Siege Tank fire, if there happens to be any so the High Templars can inflict their attack. When engaging enemy forces Zealots/Dragoons will be supported by High Templars and their PsyStorm. Anyways, a High Templar was meant to be a support unit. How can I prove you that? Easy, in a real match (Pro Matches), you'll find their unit composition well define by this: A larger number of units (attacking/supported) and a smaller group of units (supporting/supporters). | ||
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slowmanrunning
Canada285 Posts
So if I were you I wouldn't post topics about armies lacking flavour, because plenty of flavour is going to be added in the next two expansions. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On May 29 2010 16:40 slowmanrunning wrote: I'm not gonna gripe about lack of variety in armies, considering zerg have the least number of useful units to use in an army, and only one spell caster. However I think people are underestimating what the expansions are going to do to the game. You may argue that adding 1-2 units to each army wouldn't change much, but can you really argue the addition of corsairs and lurkers changed zvp and zvt drastically? The medic becoming a staple unit, and between lurkers and medics zvt would not be even close to what it is today. The dark templar and dark archon didn't exist before broodwar, protoss stealth was essentially non existant. So if I were you I wouldn't post topics about armies lacking flavour, because plenty of flavour is going to be added in the next two expansions. Firstly, every zerg unit is extremely useful and is used frequently, aside from the ultralisk which I have mentioned. Second, either you lack knowledge of these areas or you didn't read my post, maybe both. Zerg have 3 spell casters, the queen, infestor and overseer. The infestor having 2 of the best spells in the game. There would be barely any changes and quick fixes without the amount of feedback Blizzard receives from the community. This is constructive feedback about the areas many feel have been over looked or left out CURRENTLY in design. It is good to change perspective sometimes and get criticism from a different view or on an area that many don't seem to discuss. | ||
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okrane
France265 Posts
They just dont synergize enough. Its really misterious to me how they managed to make such an awesome race like the Terrans, with multiple opening styles, surprise transitions, while keeping versatility and unit strenght, while Protoss and Zerg were given the short stick in terms of unit mixes, number of total strategies and overall look and feel of the gamplay. Terrans really feel like a race coming from 2010 design, while Protoss and Zerg look like something from the age of the start of RTSs. I can even go as far and say that Broodwar Zerg and Protoss felt better than these other two. | ||
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Sosha
United States749 Posts
On May 29 2010 12:52 Feijichang wrote: As a Protoss player, I've never ragequit so much in any game as when clumps of 50m Marines rape every single unit I can make. After crushing my way through my week of beta and moving up I've just run into a wall of Terran players that play the exact same way - never taking risks or any deviations. Chargelots work, but oh wait the mass Marauders rip them apart with 50/50 Conc Shells and Stim.. Never mind blowing 200/200 for Charge, after having to get the tech building, Terran infantry are already in my base. At first I hated the Stalker as I loved the Dragoon as the staple Protoss unit. After using it I started to actually like it, until I realized massing them doesn't work, at all, and the way they attempt to create a fucking British 18th century firing line just ends with them getting raped. 11 base damage compared to the old Dragoons base damage makes this thing eat shit to basic units like Marines as well. I actually like this unit, but it can't reliably do anything well. Not to mention their armor class gets them extra damage taken. Immortals... 5 marines kill one of these, without the 150 gas and cost of a Robobay, and it cant even attack air, what a fucking joke for supposed to be living up to a god-like Dragoon risen from the dead for the second time. Slow firing, expensive, and has no real role other than having a couple of them in your control group for kill shots. I understand the theory behind it, but the Terran composition just nullifies its role. You cant close on Siege Tanks with this thing. Maybe its true merit is in attacking buildings. The Protoss unit composition expected to counter the simplicity of Zerg macro and whatever it is you call Terran play now is just beyond reason with the expense and expectations of actually having enough to not get overrun by an attack move. At the current stage of the game Protoss are require to be extremely aggressive early on or pray your opponent makes a series of mistakes in mid and late game. At the beginning of every game your forced to rush a Stalker or Zealots to counter 6 zerglings or 1 reaper from raping your entire mineral line, and then your forced to buy extraneous tech buildings for incredibly expensive upgrades to make your units even viable. My oh my if my tech came from my tech1 building and cost less than 200 or 150 minerals and Gas each. Protoss gateway mass is not comparatively that weak I don't believe. However I believe that Terran expenses and ease of upgrades just hand Protoss its ass to easily. Beyond this point... the Terran has every option in the world to brutalize whichever dedicated tech tree the Protoss decides to rape his economy going down. Rax, Fact, Techlab and you have Siege Tanks with siege. CybCore, Robo Bay, Support Bay and you've got Colossus... at a ridiculously higher cost from the Bay itself, then the Colossus alone - not to mention then needing the range upgrade to still get raped by Siege Tanks. Vikings are ridiculous air to air. Pheonix may rape Mutas, but they can't damage armored Air. These things not only can rape Colossus, but land and rape the rest of your ground forces from behind the wall of M&M. Void Rays are neat, besides the fact everything rapes them and they're a support or gyp unit. Marines rape these things... and they're so expensive to go for while maintaining a presence on the map, nor can they hold their own in any circumstance unless base-raping. But good luck getting enough of these to be useful before your run over by Terran infantry. tl;dr drunk protoss hates terran playground merry go round sandbox rubber tools To ur thoughts about Marine/Marauder clumps I strongly agree! Artosis recently interviewed Tester[gm], who he believes to be the best player in the world right now and ironically he's a protoss. During that interview, tester said that due to the low number of Terran players on the Asian/Korean servers, he hasn't had much experience versus them, but from what he's seen, he feels that they're overpowered. He went on to say that, if some of the old school korean terran pro-gamers got a hold of terran in SC2, the way they are now, terran would be near impossible to beat. I think this goes to the fact that marine/marauder clumps are soo easy to mass, yet very hard to stop. Adding to this that they get their upgrades soooo cheap, 100-100 for stim, 50-50 for concussive shells (wtf!?) and 100-100 for combat shield.. Not to mention early reaper harass which, if executed well, by say a 7 racks proxied, can normally kill about 3-4 probes before a stalker can come out.. only to very safely transistion into 4-5 marauders by the time the protoss can counter w/ 1-2 stalkers.. To the OP and his pretty well laid out post and details, i, myself, have always been a Protoss player. I loved them from the 1st time I seen them in SC. I liked their whole aura. That they were very devoted to their homeland, prideful and patriotic and brave warriors. I also liked their physiques.. almost like that of Predators. Tall, alien-like w/ advanced weaponry like their psi-blades and their plasma shields etc.. they were just awesome.. they are awesome. Dragoons, Carriers, Archons (my fav. unit), zealots, immortals, void rays, dt's.. all awesome. going along w/ the discussion about support units and the damage that they do etc, like immortals.. I too, think that this specific damage-type is kinda unrealistic.. I mean, I know its a fantasy sci-fi game etc.. but i mean.. Take the immortal for instance.. Its got these 2 gigantic cannons mounted on it, thats does like 50 dmg against 'armored' units.. yet, it doesn't do squat against 'low tier' units like zeal/marine/ling.. wtf is that? I mean thats like saying, this rocket launcher does 100 damage against a tank (which means it blows it the fuck up), yet it only does 5 damage against this bicycle.. I mean.. wtf!? a cannon is a cannon.. why would it do less damage because something is smaller.. yes, might be a harder target, but still, its a fucking cannon! Why does it take 4 hits to kill a marine with only 45 life. In these instances, I think the damage system is really stupid. another thing i've noticed that definately don't like about SC2 Protoss is that.. U ever compared them to the P units in BW, like against Z or T even: Dragoon - 20 dmg zealot - 16 dmg archon - 30 dmg sc2 stalker - 14 dmg (against armored) otherwise 11 zeal - 8 dmg, 11 w/ +3 weapons sentry - 6 BW: Z: ling - 6 dmg hydra - 9 dmg muta - 9 dmg sc2 Z: hydra - 10 roach - 16 My point is that, Protoss has always been known to be the race with very strong units, doing more damage, just being more expensive.. which makes it worth it seeing as though they do a lot of dmg, where as zerg is supposed to have cheap units but easily massed due to their in-expensiveness. That's not the case anymore.. Protoss units still cost a lot, Zerg units still are inexpensive, however, Zerg units now do as much damage as Protoss units and are more easily massed. Unit production: Say u want to make 6 stalkers, well u gotta make 6 gates @ 150 each.. thats 900 minerals + the cost of stalkers.. U want to make 6 hydras, just make the 1 hydra den, then hydras from ur larva @ w/e cost of hydra and repeat. I actually don't understand where people can think that Protoss is overpowered. They've lost all their abilities that made them strong. They lost their damage advantage. They lost their best ability, psi-storm (doesnt do nearly as good as it did in BW), its supposed to do 80 dmg, but i've seen hydras sit there during the full effect of storm and still not die.. Sure, they may die after 1-2 more shots from a stalker, but thats not the point! The time, resources spent on getting to storm, plus the fact that zerg costs and produces so much better than Protoss, they need storm to help even the flow of battle, they need storm to kill lots of units.. not to use 5 storms to kill a group of hydras, wasting all the energy, only to be confronted w/ another group of hydras in 1 min. Sure, the collosus is a very good unit that owns almost all ground units, but in context against Z, the cost of collosus and by the time u get a sizeable force of them, 4+, zerg would have alrdy known this is coming and gets liek 8+ corruptors, which narrows ur window of using them in battle.. I think Protoss is still just as costly as they ever were, or need to be, but still lack in their efficiency. Like immortal is 250-100.. well hell, for an extra 50-100, u could make a collosus, which does a lot better against some ground types.. but wait, the upgrade for collossus is 200-200.. oh yea, plus the thing about the high temps and dark temps being 2 separate buildings.. I think thats a crock too. Dts may still be useful, in the fact that they do high dmg, and are cloaked.. but the building itself costs soo much and takes so long and only provides that 1 unit and u'd still need the temp-archives to get storm, plus the upgrade itself.. its way too much for ur "temp" tech.. I mean, theres still the robo tech path and the star tech path.. the divided temp tech is too much.. Artosis even agreed to this change when Tester mentioned it.. Like tester said, there should be at least an ability @ the temp-archive to upgrade the ability to use dark-temps.. rather than having a separate building for them.. that just discourages the use of dts. <3 Protoss | ||
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Turbo.Tactics
Germany675 Posts
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Deleted User 55994
949 Posts
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Dawme
France58 Posts
Off course you can do some funky stuff like immo drops but it's not nearly as effective. "Non standard" options are very costly and difficult to manage as protoss. I often watch Tozar's stream because he is playing protoss the funky way with blink stalkers / dts most of the time and even with his experience and strong micro, many games end up with a base race. It's not nearly as commiting for zerg or terrans to play muta/banshee harass for a while, then revert back to classic army, then doing speedlings / reaper harass, etc.. And to be honnest, I think terrans should win almost every time against protoss (and zerg for that matter). With the current version of the game, I'm pretty sure terrans will own the ladder so much after a few weeks/months. I still don't understand why terrans don't use ghosts every fucking time against protoss since it's basically a I Win button right now but I'm not gonna complain. Idra told in his itw that he thinks protoss is very strong early game and very weak after a while and I think he's totally right. Protoss early game is strong because they have some good cheeses and they have the very solid warpgate timing push but if you don't win here, you're gonna be behind because you won't be able to adapt to the game and ennemy's tech switches as fast as other races and if the other player is playing smart (i.e not spamming his marauder button while I have 6+ collossi), he will win. | ||
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JaspluR
Australia174 Posts
Protoss gateway units are reasonable, with the sentry being one of the best spell casters in the game even though they're gas heavy. Which leads to another point is that having sentries to hold off an early terran bio push is extremely hard as we'll have no gas for colossi later in the game. I'd like to say that stalkers are decent and fun to micro but they are way too fragile and don't really fit the role of a harassing unit. They take so many hits to kill zealots/marines and 125/50 is too expensive. Fast movement speed is great but with low damage and SLOW attack it kinda sucks. I'd rather it move a little slower but have it's dps higher (they have blink anyway who needs fast movement.) Immortals are dog shit, they were great before for holding off roach timing pushes (when roaches were 'op' lol) but once you have enough units all you need is 10 units to attack an Immortal ONCE !!!! and the shields are already gone. They are useless (for countering tanks) who would leave their tanks by themselves without marines? It's incredibly stupid. Next the phoenix and void ray I've never had a problem with, I think they're great units but the phoenix AtA damage is low enough to make me cry. Void rays were fine prepatch imo, there are many counters it was just that people started using void rays a lot that patch so everyone had a cry when they saw a 'newish' unit being used and losing - crying imba! Carriers are hopeless - their build time is so huge and they die to focus fire so easily, it's hard to micro them as their movement speed is quite slow. Same with the mothership, who even uses this? It's a bm unit - takes just a little under 3 minutes to build, slowest movement speed.. Those two units are just not worth the tech route. HT's are ok, but are quite expensive to tech to. I'd like to see a cheaper templar archive or the dt and ht to come together from the same archive because dt's dark shrine is insanely gas heavy for such a shit unit HP wise. By the time you have dt's (with the incredibly long shrine build time) EVERY decent player will have detection by then and dt's fall so easily (not to mention they're only use is for harass, they have no spells, cost 125 gas and 250gas shrine 100 build time) is it really worth all that commitment? HT damage is FINE, I'm not complaining for a buff there.. Feedback is also underused and a great spell! I think the colossi isn't a support unit - they are the staple of every matchup. I lose most games when I don't have colossi and after 4-5 of them they do extremely good damage. Corrupters or vikings do own them, it's hard to get stalkers to focus fire the air units when they're being blocked/slowed by over 9000 marauders and tanks... All in all I like protoss but they get extremely boring for me to play as I tend to rely on gateway/colossi - toss air is too much of a gamble with phoenix ONLY being good for countering mutas or mineral line harassing. I would like to see a buff to our templar tech or carriers and I'll be happy. It's so boring playing with gateway units and losing without colossi.. Terran is op rant: Seriously? The last terran buff is so stupid. They were cheap enough and only require a fkn cheap tech lab! We need 200/200 for charge + twilight council!! Stim on marauders is fkd, their damage output is insane... Tanks are too hard to take down even with blink (not complaining about tanks but) WHEN THEY HAVE over9000 marauders/marines with STIMMMMMMMMMM your stalkers wont do shit against tanks, or your phoenix wont be able to pick them up, or your dt's will die in 0.00009thousand seconds with a single scan. Terran bio is too strong for it's low cost and even their researches are low cost.. ps. Immortals are dog shit pps oh and Carriers and mothership | ||
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