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On May 31 2011 08:28 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it.
That's why generic profanity exist...
You don't have to know that one of your viewers specifically is gay or black in order to avoid using specific words that are used in regards to a specific group when you can use a generic insult instead. It's all rather stupid anyways, but your point doesn't make much sense to me. Does he have to know that someone is black in order to avoid the word, "Nigger"? It's not exactly a versatile word and there are many words that could be used to insult someone that don't carry weight for a specific group of people.
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On May 31 2011 07:40 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 07:38 Mailing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney? So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant.
Do you actually think that you can do anything in life and not offend anyone? In sweden some women are offended these. They think it is unfair that it's a man on the sign and not a woman. Point being, whatever you say someone somewhere will always be offended by it. So essentially what you're saying is that it's fine to offend some people because they are a minority, but it's not ok to offend a bigger group of people. Some people choose to use alot of words which may be considered offensive, and some people decide to not use those words. Either case someone out there is being offended and how much you decide to "reduce" your language is up to yourself/your employer.
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On May 31 2011 08:27 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:26 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:23 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:07 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 07:40 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:38 Mailing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney? So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant. Since when does Destiny's personal stream represent Teamliquid or E-sports as a whole? Of course (within limits) he can say whatever he wants, it's his stream. How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. I don't know how old you are but at my age most would have enough reading comprehension to see that I never once mentioned ROOT. Hit the refresh button and read the edit, since you need me to spell it out for you. A simple logical leap would have sufficed, but since you're a little slow, I made it more explicit for you.
I guess the KKK videos on Youtube represent Google then. Or maybe it has nothing to do with that as Youtube is nothing but a medium for people to submit videos, as TL is a place where streamers can show that they are streaming, or JTV is a place where streamers (surprise) stream. These organizations set their rules and their users (should) follow them, there's nothing more to it. What Destiny says doesn't bloody say anything about TL or JTV.
What goes on between Destiny and ROOT is his and ROOT's business and granted, Destiny represents his team in a way. But TL and e-sports? Nope.
Similar to how forums work, here
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
You're welcome.
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On May 31 2011 08:35 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:28 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it. That's why generic profanity exist... You don't have to know that one of your viewers specifically is gay or black in order to avoid using specific words that are used in regards to a specific group when you can use a generic insult instead. It's all rather stupid anyways, but your point doesn't make much sense to me. Does he have to know that someone is black in order to avoid the word, "Nigger"? It's not exactly a versatile word and there are many words that could be used to insult someone that don't carry weight for a specific group of people.
No. If you're calling someone a nigger without knowing if he is actually black or not your not using the word to define a black person, your just using it as a general insult. Do you not think it is silly to get offended by seeing the word nigger? If you call someone retarded online or something similar, do you actually mean that the person you're talking to is retarded or are you just using the word as an insult? I have on multiple occasions called my friends faggots in real life. Not once have I meant that they are actuallyhomosexual and they're clever enough to realize this.
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On May 31 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:35 Mordiford wrote:On May 31 2011 08:28 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it. That's why generic profanity exist... You don't have to know that one of your viewers specifically is gay or black in order to avoid using specific words that are used in regards to a specific group when you can use a generic insult instead. It's all rather stupid anyways, but your point doesn't make much sense to me. Does he have to know that someone is black in order to avoid the word, "Nigger"? It's not exactly a versatile word and there are many words that could be used to insult someone that don't carry weight for a specific group of people. No. If you're calling someone a nigger without knowing if he is actually black or not your not using the word to define a black person, your just using it as a general insult. Do you not think it is silly to get offended by seeing the word nigger? If you call someone retarded online or something similar, do you actually mean that the person you're talking to is retarded or are you just using the word as an insult?
If you call someone a nigger in a derogatory fashion you imply being black is bad as you're using it as an insult.
If you call someone retarded you're saying they are stupid, implying that people with mental disabilities are stupid.
That's the general idea. I don't feel very strongly about it personally, but meh, you'd have to be delusional not to understand why some will be offended despite contexts.
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On May 31 2011 08:39 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:27 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:26 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:23 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:07 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 07:40 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:38 Mailing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney? So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant. Since when does Destiny's personal stream represent Teamliquid or E-sports as a whole? Of course (within limits) he can say whatever he wants, it's his stream. How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. I don't know how old you are but at my age most would have enough reading comprehension to see that I never once mentioned ROOT. Hit the refresh button and read the edit, since you need me to spell it out for you. A simple logical leap would have sufficed, but since you're a little slow, I made it more explicit for you. I guess the KKK videos on Youtube represent Google then. Or maybe it has nothing to do with that as Youtube is nothing but a medium for people to submit videos, as TL is a place where streamers can show that they are streaming, or JTV is a place where streamers (surprise) stream. These organizations set their rules and their users (should) follow them, there's nothing more to it. What Destiny says doesn't bloody say anything about TL or JTV. What goes on between Destiny and ROOT is his and ROOT's business and granted, Destiny represents his team in a way. But TL and e-sports? Nope. Similar to how forums work, here Show nested quote +The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. You're welcome.
I missed the part where Youtube prominently lists the "KKK" to all it's viewers under "Featured" content.
And no, a disclaimer doesn't mean shit in and of itself. It might insulate them from liability if someone sued TL for libel or slander, but in terms of what we're talking about - TL's moral culpability for the content of its streamers - the disclaimer is meaningless.
Regardless, this entire discussion has been a sad fucking joke. As long as prominent members of this community can't understand why they're hurting themselves and other people by using racially-charged language, "e-sports" is going to remain a joke. The road to respectibility and increased visibility isn't found in catering to angry, self-centered juveniles, period.
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On May 31 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:35 Mordiford wrote:On May 31 2011 08:28 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it. That's why generic profanity exist... You don't have to know that one of your viewers specifically is gay or black in order to avoid using specific words that are used in regards to a specific group when you can use a generic insult instead. It's all rather stupid anyways, but your point doesn't make much sense to me. Does he have to know that someone is black in order to avoid the word, "Nigger"? It's not exactly a versatile word and there are many words that could be used to insult someone that don't carry weight for a specific group of people. No. If you're calling someone a nigger without knowing if he is actually black or not your not using the word to define a black person, your just using it as a general insult. Do you not think it is silly to get offended by seeing the word nigger? If you call someone retarded online or something similar, do you actually mean that the person you're talking to is retarded or are you just using the word as an insult?
I've already stated why the use of "retarded" is different in this regard, and I don't think Nigger is a general insult because it's use and origin is in regards specifically to a group of people and therefor it can hold some weight to those people. I think it's kind of silly to be offended by any word out of context to be honest, but it's pretty easy to remove some very very specific words to avoid offending the people who are.
On May 31 2011 08:39 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 07:40 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:38 Mailing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney? So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant. Do you actually think that you can do anything in life and not offend anyone? In sweden some women are offended these. They think it is unfair that it's a man on the sign and not a woman. Point being, whatever you say someone somewhere will always be offended by it. So essentially what you're saying is that it's fine to offend some people because they are a minority, but it's not ok to offend a bigger group of people. Some people choose to use alot of words which may be considered offensive, and some people decide to not use those words. Either case someone out there is being offended and how much you decide to "reduce" your language is up to yourself/your employer.
See, this sort of makes sense, but is just part of the Slippery Slope argument that Destiny was making and I don't think it really works here. It's pretty distinguishable what is excessive sensitivity to words and what is understandable. inControl brought up the example of a common word such as the sun possibly offending a person or minuscule group of people who have had experience with skin cancer, this is a non-offensive word by nature and is an example of excessive sensitivity that couldn't be catered to. A word like nigger is offensive by nature, and worse still has weight for a specific group of people, it's not even a versatile or common-place word that would negatively impact your vocabulary if removed. I think the slippery slope argument doesn't really work here, distinctions can be made between excessive sensitivity for common and general use words, and understandably being offended by a word that has no real reason for being used out of context at all.
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On May 31 2011 08:45 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 08:35 Mordiford wrote:On May 31 2011 08:28 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it. That's why generic profanity exist... You don't have to know that one of your viewers specifically is gay or black in order to avoid using specific words that are used in regards to a specific group when you can use a generic insult instead. It's all rather stupid anyways, but your point doesn't make much sense to me. Does he have to know that someone is black in order to avoid the word, "Nigger"? It's not exactly a versatile word and there are many words that could be used to insult someone that don't carry weight for a specific group of people. No. If you're calling someone a nigger without knowing if he is actually black or not your not using the word to define a black person, your just using it as a general insult. Do you not think it is silly to get offended by seeing the word nigger? If you call someone retarded online or something similar, do you actually mean that the person you're talking to is retarded or are you just using the word as an insult? If you call someone a nigger in a derogatory fashion you imply being black is bad as you're using it as an insult. If you call someone retarded you're saying they are stupid, implying that people with mental disabilities are stupid. That's the general idea. I don't feel very strongly about it personally, but meh, you'd have to be delusional not to understand why some will be offended despite contexts.
Quite true. Well put.
The argument within this thread actually blows my mind:
Side 1: Connotation!
Side 2: But.... denotation!
I honestly believe that language is an unsuitable tool for settling this. Yet it is what the argument is about. My mind = destroyed.
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On May 31 2011 08:45 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 08:35 Mordiford wrote:On May 31 2011 08:28 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it. That's why generic profanity exist... You don't have to know that one of your viewers specifically is gay or black in order to avoid using specific words that are used in regards to a specific group when you can use a generic insult instead. It's all rather stupid anyways, but your point doesn't make much sense to me. Does he have to know that someone is black in order to avoid the word, "Nigger"? It's not exactly a versatile word and there are many words that could be used to insult someone that don't carry weight for a specific group of people. No. If you're calling someone a nigger without knowing if he is actually black or not your not using the word to define a black person, your just using it as a general insult. Do you not think it is silly to get offended by seeing the word nigger? If you call someone retarded online or something similar, do you actually mean that the person you're talking to is retarded or are you just using the word as an insult? If you call someone a nigger in a derogatory fashion you imply being black is bad as you're using it as an insult. If you call someone retarded you're saying they are stupid, implying that people with mental disabilities are stupid. That's the general idea. I don't feel very strongly about it personally, but meh, you'd have to be delusional not to understand why some will be offended despite contexts.
This is the way the world works. You can use plenty of words in a derogatory fashion. I've been targeted many times by lots of different insults some of them correct, most of them not. I still think you're silly if you actually get insulted by this. Obviously I understand that some people might be but this is the internet. If you're easily offended you don't belong here.
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On May 31 2011 08:50 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:39 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:27 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:26 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:23 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:07 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 07:40 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:38 Mailing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney? So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant. Since when does Destiny's personal stream represent Teamliquid or E-sports as a whole? Of course (within limits) he can say whatever he wants, it's his stream. How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. I don't know how old you are but at my age most would have enough reading comprehension to see that I never once mentioned ROOT. Hit the refresh button and read the edit, since you need me to spell it out for you. A simple logical leap would have sufficed, but since you're a little slow, I made it more explicit for you. I guess the KKK videos on Youtube represent Google then. Or maybe it has nothing to do with that as Youtube is nothing but a medium for people to submit videos, as TL is a place where streamers can show that they are streaming, or JTV is a place where streamers (surprise) stream. These organizations set their rules and their users (should) follow them, there's nothing more to it. What Destiny says doesn't bloody say anything about TL or JTV. What goes on between Destiny and ROOT is his and ROOT's business and granted, Destiny represents his team in a way. But TL and e-sports? Nope. Similar to how forums work, here The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. You're welcome. I missed the part where Youtube prominently lists the "KKK" to all it's viewers under "Featured" content. And no, a disclaimer doesn't mean shit in and of itself. It might insulate them from liability if someone sued TL for libel or slander, but in terms of what we're talking about - TL's moral culpability for the content of its streamers - the disclaimer is meaningless. Regardless, this entire discussion has been a sad fucking joke. As long as prominent members of this community can't understand why they're hurting themselves and other people by using racially-charged language, "e-sports" is going to remain a joke. The road to respectibility and increased visibility isn't found in catering to angry, hate-filled juveniles, period.
Destiny isn't featured because he uses racial slurs, he's featured as he's a pro gamer with a (relatively) huge following. His opinions, featured or not, does not reflect the sites he uses to stream on.
But sure, e-sports is going to remain a joke that caters to angry juveniles. After all, there is nothing more civilized than a pub with mature adults watching a football game. It's like slander isn't even part of their vocab'.
I'm going to have to agree with Destiny here. If you correlate language to maturity you are everything but mature.
On May 31 2011 08:56 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:45 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 08:35 Mordiford wrote:On May 31 2011 08:28 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it. That's why generic profanity exist... You don't have to know that one of your viewers specifically is gay or black in order to avoid using specific words that are used in regards to a specific group when you can use a generic insult instead. It's all rather stupid anyways, but your point doesn't make much sense to me. Does he have to know that someone is black in order to avoid the word, "Nigger"? It's not exactly a versatile word and there are many words that could be used to insult someone that don't carry weight for a specific group of people. No. If you're calling someone a nigger without knowing if he is actually black or not your not using the word to define a black person, your just using it as a general insult. Do you not think it is silly to get offended by seeing the word nigger? If you call someone retarded online or something similar, do you actually mean that the person you're talking to is retarded or are you just using the word as an insult? If you call someone a nigger in a derogatory fashion you imply being black is bad as you're using it as an insult. If you call someone retarded you're saying they are stupid, implying that people with mental disabilities are stupid. That's the general idea. I don't feel very strongly about it personally, but meh, you'd have to be delusional not to understand why some will be offended despite contexts. This is the way the world works. You can use plenty of words in a derogatory fashion. I've been targeted many times by lots of different insults some of them correct, most of them not. I still think you're silly if you actually get insulted by this. Obviously I understand that some people might be but this is the internet. If you're easily offended you don't belong here.
Sure. It is how the world looks today, at least in every area I've been to and certainly most areas online. As said, I don't feel very strongly about it personally, was merely explaining that side of the argument.
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On May 31 2011 08:50 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:39 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:27 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:26 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:23 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:07 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 07:40 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:38 Mailing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney? So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant. Since when does Destiny's personal stream represent Teamliquid or E-sports as a whole? Of course (within limits) he can say whatever he wants, it's his stream. How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. I don't know how old you are but at my age most would have enough reading comprehension to see that I never once mentioned ROOT. Hit the refresh button and read the edit, since you need me to spell it out for you. A simple logical leap would have sufficed, but since you're a little slow, I made it more explicit for you. I guess the KKK videos on Youtube represent Google then. Or maybe it has nothing to do with that as Youtube is nothing but a medium for people to submit videos, as TL is a place where streamers can show that they are streaming, or JTV is a place where streamers (surprise) stream. These organizations set their rules and their users (should) follow them, there's nothing more to it. What Destiny says doesn't bloody say anything about TL or JTV. What goes on between Destiny and ROOT is his and ROOT's business and granted, Destiny represents his team in a way. But TL and e-sports? Nope. Similar to how forums work, here The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. You're welcome. I missed the part where Youtube prominently lists the "KKK" to all it's viewers under "Featured" content. And no, a disclaimer doesn't mean shit in and of itself. It might insulate them from liability if someone sued TL for libel or slander, but in terms of what we're talking about - TL's moral culpability for the content of its streamers - the disclaimer is meaningless. Regardless, this entire discussion has been a sad fucking joke. As long as prominent members of this community can't understand why they're hurting themselves and other people by using racially-charged language, "e-sports" is going to remain a joke. The road to respectibility and increased visibility isn't found in catering to angry, self-centered juveniles, period.
I think a lot of the problems is that TL's official position on especially their stream page is that they are a resource rather than a biased listing. This came up during the whole Idra recent banning saga. Anyways the point is people buy into it when the fact is that they do make choices on which content to allow and how to moderate. That has been their strong suit and when they feature a streamer they aren't just giving the community information, they are endorsing that stream especially with the loose at best rules for getting featured.
Then onto the point of esports, it can be linked as simple as just ROOT as a team. If just one sponsor is deterred from investing in them as a team because of this incident than it has had some effect on esports.
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I agree'd with destiny on the subject, i think geoff was just making the argument so he can appear to be cultured, and not actually thinking about the point he was trying to put forward.
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I'm wonder at what point this racism discussion will be stopped. This isn't really a topic that ever sees a resolution on the internet. We haven't solved it in thousands of years of mankind and this is such a pointless, circular discussion to have in the Weapon of Choice thread for the rest of time.
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On May 31 2011 08:59 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:50 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:39 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:27 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:26 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:23 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:07 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 07:40 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:38 Mailing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:
[quote]
I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness.
You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it.
But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney? So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant. Since when does Destiny's personal stream represent Teamliquid or E-sports as a whole? Of course (within limits) he can say whatever he wants, it's his stream. How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. I don't know how old you are but at my age most would have enough reading comprehension to see that I never once mentioned ROOT. Hit the refresh button and read the edit, since you need me to spell it out for you. A simple logical leap would have sufficed, but since you're a little slow, I made it more explicit for you. I guess the KKK videos on Youtube represent Google then. Or maybe it has nothing to do with that as Youtube is nothing but a medium for people to submit videos, as TL is a place where streamers can show that they are streaming, or JTV is a place where streamers (surprise) stream. These organizations set their rules and their users (should) follow them, there's nothing more to it. What Destiny says doesn't bloody say anything about TL or JTV. What goes on between Destiny and ROOT is his and ROOT's business and granted, Destiny represents his team in a way. But TL and e-sports? Nope. Similar to how forums work, here The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. You're welcome. I missed the part where Youtube prominently lists the "KKK" to all it's viewers under "Featured" content. And no, a disclaimer doesn't mean shit in and of itself. It might insulate them from liability if someone sued TL for libel or slander, but in terms of what we're talking about - TL's moral culpability for the content of its streamers - the disclaimer is meaningless. Regardless, this entire discussion has been a sad fucking joke. As long as prominent members of this community can't understand why they're hurting themselves and other people by using racially-charged language, "e-sports" is going to remain a joke. The road to respectibility and increased visibility isn't found in catering to angry, hate-filled juveniles, period. Destiny isn't featured because he uses racial slurs, he's featured as he's a pro gamer with a (relatively) huge following. His opinions, featured or not, does not reflect the sites he uses to stream on. But sure, e-sports is going to remain a joke that caters to angry juveniles. After all, there is nothing more civilized than a pub with mature adults watching a football game. It's like slander isn't even part of their vocab'. I'm going to have to agree with Destiny here. If you correlate language to maturity you are everything but mature.
Ah, now I see that you're just trolling this discussion. You don't have anything intelligible to add - you're just employing shoddy logic to try to make a nearly irrelevant point. Your first paragraph is conclusory and meaningless, and it ignores both objective reality and the common experience of anyone who's ever been affiliated with a professional sports organization (the idea of the NFL expecting a team to punish a player, rather than the league doing so, is laughable.) Your second paragraph is an irrelevant digression into pointlessness, and your third hilariously conflates the use of racially-charged and insensitive language with vanilla, everyday profanity, in a weak attempt at an ad hominem attack. If this is the most you have to add to the discussion, then I think you don't merit any further response.
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On May 31 2011 08:45 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 08:35 Mordiford wrote:On May 31 2011 08:28 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it. That's why generic profanity exist... You don't have to know that one of your viewers specifically is gay or black in order to avoid using specific words that are used in regards to a specific group when you can use a generic insult instead. It's all rather stupid anyways, but your point doesn't make much sense to me. Does he have to know that someone is black in order to avoid the word, "Nigger"? It's not exactly a versatile word and there are many words that could be used to insult someone that don't carry weight for a specific group of people. No. If you're calling someone a nigger without knowing if he is actually black or not your not using the word to define a black person, your just using it as a general insult. Do you not think it is silly to get offended by seeing the word nigger? If you call someone retarded online or something similar, do you actually mean that the person you're talking to is retarded or are you just using the word as an insult? If you call someone a nigger in a derogatory fashion you imply being black is bad as you're using it as an insult. If you call someone retarded you're saying they are stupid, implying that people with mental disabilities are stupid. That's the general idea. I don't feel very strongly about it personally, but meh, you'd have to be delusional not to understand why some will be offended despite contexts.
Yeah thats exactly my thoughts. What exactly does the N-word imply? All I know is it is used as a very very offensive derogatory term towards blacks, but if you call someone an N-word what is it you are implying about them?
Since that is all I know about the word, and I think that the general public shares this same level of knowledge as far as what the word means, my conclusion is that calling someone an N-word implies that they are black, and that in itself is not offensive at all. If someone came up to me and said "hey your black" I would be like, well okay....thats a false statement but I don't understand why you are telling me that, but its certainly not offensive to me in any way.
I understand that the word does indeed carry a deeper and much more derogatory meaning but without any knowledge of what that is then the conclusion I come to is that the word is offensive just because of what it used to mean and that society tells us its offensive. If you have ever heard the term "its famous because its famous" I think the reason why the N-word is offensive is "its offensive because its offensive".
I'm not arguing that the N-word isn't offensive, it obviously is greatly offensive because of the historical weight it has but, in this day and age, the word has lost its natural venom, nobody knows what it actually means, what it actually implies about the person that is being called that.
The only reason it still has venom, that it still is offensive is because we as a society tell ourselves that it is, we give it power, we hold it in such taboo status, that we give the word its ability to cause ripples when it is used. We are doing that, its us as a people that give it its power because of how we view it.
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Edit: woops srry for repost
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Here's a piece of advice to everyone: stop getting offended on behalf of other people. Blacks, homosexuals and rape victims aren't kids that you need to protect and surely can speak for themselves. Most of the ones that have spoken have said that either they don't care, they are ok with it or that they just don't watch the streams where slurs are used. Is there a problem here somewhere?
I have a lot of respect for anyone who just dares to be himself instead of trying to change just to please some people. Destiny isn't stepping up to be some kind of "voice of ESPORTS" or promoting acting like him when doing serious commentary. His stream got popular because of his personality and some non-viewer shouldn't demand that he changes it, especially if he's not part of any group that could be offended by his words. I don't regularly watch his stream but it was nice to have him on the show as he can really be quite funny at times. Wheat handled this quite well and stayed neutral through it but I'd rather have any kind of flammable topics handled towards the end of the show so that they don't devour everything else that would have been worthy of discussing.
If anyone wants something else to be offended by, watch these poor exploited women from a djWHEAT show some years back. Who knows what kind of reaction that would have gotten in this community.
+ Show Spoiler +The last paragraph contains sarcasm.
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On May 31 2011 09:19 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:59 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:50 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:39 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:27 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:26 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:23 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 08:07 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 07:40 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:38 Mailing wrote:
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No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney?
So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant. Since when does Destiny's personal stream represent Teamliquid or E-sports as a whole? Of course (within limits) he can say whatever he wants, it's his stream. How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. I don't know how old you are but at my age most would have enough reading comprehension to see that I never once mentioned ROOT. Hit the refresh button and read the edit, since you need me to spell it out for you. A simple logical leap would have sufficed, but since you're a little slow, I made it more explicit for you. I guess the KKK videos on Youtube represent Google then. Or maybe it has nothing to do with that as Youtube is nothing but a medium for people to submit videos, as TL is a place where streamers can show that they are streaming, or JTV is a place where streamers (surprise) stream. These organizations set their rules and their users (should) follow them, there's nothing more to it. What Destiny says doesn't bloody say anything about TL or JTV. What goes on between Destiny and ROOT is his and ROOT's business and granted, Destiny represents his team in a way. But TL and e-sports? Nope. Similar to how forums work, here The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. You're welcome. I missed the part where Youtube prominently lists the "KKK" to all it's viewers under "Featured" content. And no, a disclaimer doesn't mean shit in and of itself. It might insulate them from liability if someone sued TL for libel or slander, but in terms of what we're talking about - TL's moral culpability for the content of its streamers - the disclaimer is meaningless. Regardless, this entire discussion has been a sad fucking joke. As long as prominent members of this community can't understand why they're hurting themselves and other people by using racially-charged language, "e-sports" is going to remain a joke. The road to respectibility and increased visibility isn't found in catering to angry, hate-filled juveniles, period. Destiny isn't featured because he uses racial slurs, he's featured as he's a pro gamer with a (relatively) huge following. His opinions, featured or not, does not reflect the sites he uses to stream on. But sure, e-sports is going to remain a joke that caters to angry juveniles. After all, there is nothing more civilized than a pub with mature adults watching a football game. It's like slander isn't even part of their vocab'. I'm going to have to agree with Destiny here. If you correlate language to maturity you are everything but mature. Ah, now I see that you're just trolling this discussion. You don't have anything intelligible to add - you're just employing shoddy logic to try to make a nearly irrelevant point. Your first paragraph is conclusory and meaningless, and it ignores both objective reality and the common experience of anyone who's ever been affiliated with a professional sports organization (the idea of the NFL expecting a team to punish a player, rather than the league doing so, is laughable.) Your second paragraph is an irrelevant digression into pointlessness, and your third hilariously conflates the use of racially-charged and insensitive language with vanilla, everyday profanity, in a weak attempt at an ad hominem attack. If this is the most you have to add to the discussion, then I think you don't merit any further response.
Accusing me of shoddy logic while saying Teamliquid is to Destiny what the NFL is for NFL teams. Cute. When did Teamliquid take Kespa's role in the West again? This is news to me. You can't be a very active fan of SC2 think that there is any organization that has authority over ROOT players, or any other teams players for that matter. How you can compare it to the NFL is beyond me. We don't have a Kespa in the West, do we?
I particularly liked this part though your third hilariously conflates the use of racially-charged and insensitive language with vanilla, everyday profanity, in a weak attempt at an ad hominem attack.
Not really, point was that language (be it racially charged or not) doesn't dictate a persons maturity. Language depends on a lot of things, one being your surrounding culture. If X is used lightly in your area you aren't immediately immature for using it. See what I mean? If you can't see that I probably shouldn't say you're immature, but I would recommend visiting a few other countries to get some perspective on things.
If this is the most you have to add to the discussion, then I think you don't merit any further response.
Boy, it seems I stepped on a sore toe. No reason to take it personal, bud. Disagreeing doesn't always mean "trolling", despite what some would have you believe.
And with that I'm off to get some sleep.
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On May 31 2011 09:28 Rasun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 08:45 vyyye wrote:On May 31 2011 08:42 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 08:35 Mordiford wrote:On May 31 2011 08:28 Bergys wrote:On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote:On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote:
InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass.
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny.
What did Destiny do? Ignore it.
Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it. That's why generic profanity exist... You don't have to know that one of your viewers specifically is gay or black in order to avoid using specific words that are used in regards to a specific group when you can use a generic insult instead. It's all rather stupid anyways, but your point doesn't make much sense to me. Does he have to know that someone is black in order to avoid the word, "Nigger"? It's not exactly a versatile word and there are many words that could be used to insult someone that don't carry weight for a specific group of people. No. If you're calling someone a nigger without knowing if he is actually black or not your not using the word to define a black person, your just using it as a general insult. Do you not think it is silly to get offended by seeing the word nigger? If you call someone retarded online or something similar, do you actually mean that the person you're talking to is retarded or are you just using the word as an insult? If you call someone a nigger in a derogatory fashion you imply being black is bad as you're using it as an insult. If you call someone retarded you're saying they are stupid, implying that people with mental disabilities are stupid. That's the general idea. I don't feel very strongly about it personally, but meh, you'd have to be delusional not to understand why some will be offended despite contexts. Yeah thats exactly my thoughts. What exactly does the N-word imply? All I know is it is used as a very very offensive derogatory term towards blacks, but if you call someone an N-word what is it you are implying about them? Since that is all I know about the word, and I think that the general public shares this same level of knowledge as far as what the word means, my conclusion is that calling someone an N-word implies that they are black, and that in itself is not offensive at all. If someone came up to me and said "hey your black" I would be like, well okay....thats a false statement but I don't understand why you are telling me that, but its certainly not offensive to me in any way. I understand that the word does indeed carry a deeper and much more derogatory meaning but without any knowledge of what that is then the conclusion I come to is that the word is offensive just because of what it used to mean and that society tells us its offensive. If you have ever heard the term "its famous because its famous" I think the reason why the N-word is offensive is "its offensive because its offensive". I'm not arguing that the N-word isn't offensive, it obviously is greatly offensive because of the historical weight it has but, in this day and age, the word has lost its natural venom, nobody knows what it actually means, what it actually implies about the person that is being called that. The only reason it still has venom, that it still is offensive is because we as a society tell ourselves that it is, we give it power, we hold it in such taboo status, that we give the word its ability to cause ripples when it is used. We are doing that, its us as a people that give it its power because of how we view it.
This sums it up pretty nicely. Personally I have never seen Destiny use the N-word ever. I don´t do it myself. Why? Because I am not funny enough to use it in a funny and okay way. But I think there are ways, I have even laughed about it myself. As long as you keep it tight and don´t use the word as an insult or use it 24/7 it seems to be okay. At least from my experience, haven´t met any person who gets offended if it was really funny.
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