| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Homosax
20 Posts
I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny. What did Destiny do? Ignore it. Hmm. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27118 Posts
On May 30 2011 20:05 The KY wrote: It's official, everyone is taking everything way too seriously. My god haha. You read this and still managed to think he was being serious? Buncha kids have never watched Half Baked obviously. | ||
|
NeonGenesis
Norway260 Posts
I know institutionalized racism is still a huge problem in the US, but where you (and those who share your opinion) and I (and those who share my opinion) apparently diverge in opinion is whether it is the context/spirit in which a word was said or the word itself that matters. I'm not going to bother arguing this with people any more because it reflects fundamental philosophical differences and I don't care enough to wrestle people into adopting my outlook on life. | ||
|
fer
Canada375 Posts
It was a bit disappointing that the discussion got derailed significantly by the end, but entertaining nonetheless. I must admit I also found quite humorous the fact of iNcontroL trying to lecture another individual on sensitivity and reason on it. Not only is his argument the always the same, and similar as Destiny''s — "I'm just joking, so it doesn't matter" — but he repeatedly does this, and he is always on the lookout to ridicule or make fun of other people (at least for the most part of his public persona). I still agree with him though outside of that, and it's really quite prepotent of Destiny to genuinely believe he can change language on the fly and believe it's completely fine or justified. Looking forward to next ep. | ||
|
Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote: InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass. I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny. What did Destiny do? Ignore it. Hmm. I feel like inControl did seem a bit smug, but some of the stuff he laughed at was genuinely silly statements coming from Destiny, but inControl made a few silly statements of his own. After thinking about it, both of them have valid arguments but what it comes down to is Destiny doesn't want to alter his vocabulary for his stream because of his views, that's his thing and I don't necessarily know if I think much less of him for it, but I do sort of lean towards inControls point of view on the issue itself. When there are some really really obvious words, that aren't even versatile like "Fuck" or "Shit", then what's necessity of using them, just to make them not have an impact. Sure, when you use rape in a different context, you're not making light of the act of raping itself, but if offends some because of it's original use and purpose then what's the harm in removing it? In certain scenarios, sure it may be more natural or comfortable to say, "Shut the fuck up!" or "Holy shit, there's Hellions in my mineral line" but those are generic and versatile words which is why they're easy to use. Cutting the words inControl mentioned out of your vocabulary would hardly leave you at a loss. That said, it comes down to the situation, as Destiny said himself he wouldn't use such words if he were casting an event or something, but on his personal stream, he felt that level of language was appropriate mainly because of his views on language as a whole, this is to incorporate possibly offensive terms into his vocabulary to encourage listeners to disregard the negativity of words on their own. I dunno, I think it'd be easier for a speaker to remove some very very specific words than it would be for potentially a few hundred/thousand listeners to attempt to not be offended by them, but I can see Destiny's approach to an extent as well. As I see it, Destiny wants to be able to talk how he wants and the responsibility is on the listener to not be offended, while inControl thinks that in general and particularly for people in a prominent position such as Destiny, it shouldn't be trouble to remove very specific "Lightning rod words" from their vocabulary and as such he places the responsibility on the speaker. inControl did come off a bit smug and sharp but some of it was in response to slightly fallacious arguments by Destiny, both had good points mixed in though. | ||
|
SlipperySnake
248 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote: InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass. I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny. What did Destiny do? Ignore it. Hmm. Yeah I thought that was kind of lame too. I don't know, I feel like he made a lot better points than Destiny and that Destiny kind of jumped off the deep end when he started talking about some rich black guy getting offended. I am not one to start calling people racist but his opinion there was really fucking ignorant. I think there was a lot of tension and maybe that is why iNcontroL laughed but I thought it was pretty obvious even to Destiny fans or people who generally agree with him that he was destroying himself a little bit when he said he was offended that other people would be offended. Overall I was pretty pissed to hear that racial stuff being endorsed on a show I love and I am really sad to see Wheat side with Destiny so I could understand iNcontroL being so upset. At least Chill had the sense to clarify that he wasn't involved and get the hell out of there. | ||
|
PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:02 Homosax wrote: InC did argue, but he also smugly laughed, making him look like an ass. I honestly had a lot of respect for him, and I was under the impression he was a part of the debate team in university or something, him displaying manners like that just really disappointed me. You could tell at that moment he thought he was "Better" than Destiny. What did Destiny do? Ignore it. Hmm. I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. | ||
|
Homosax
20 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:26 Mordiford wrote: I feel like inControl did seem a bit smug, but some of the stuff he laughed at was genuinely silly statements coming from Destiny, but inControl made a few silly statements of his own. After thinking about it, both of them have valid arguments but what it comes down to is Destiny doesn't want to alter his vocabulary for his stream because of his views, that's his thing and I don't necessarily know if I think much less of him for it, but I do sort of lean towards inControls point of view on the issue itself. When there are some really really obvious words, that aren't even versatile like "Fuck" or "Shit", then what's necessity of using them, just to make them not have an impact. Sure, when you use rape in a different context, you're not making light of the act of raping itself, but if offends some because of it's original use and purpose then what's the harm in removing it? In certain scenarios, sure it may be more natural or comfortable to say, "Shut the fuck up!" or "Holy shit, there's Hellions in my mineral line" but those are generic and versatile words which is why they're easy to use. Cutting the words inControl mentioned out of your vocabulary would hardly leave you at a loss. That said, it comes down to the situation, as Destiny said himself he wouldn't use such words if he were casting an event or something, but on his personal stream, he felt that level of language was appropriate mainly because of his views on language as a whole, this is to incorporate possibly offensive terms into his vocabulary to encourage listeners to disregard the negativity of words on their own. I dunno, I think it'd be easier for a speaker to remove some very very specific words than it would be for potentially a few hundred/thousand listeners to attempt to not be offended by them, but I can see Destiny's approach to an extent as well. As I see it, Destiny wants to be able to talk how he wants and the responsibility is on the listener to not be offended, while inControl thinks that in general and particularly for people in a prominent position such as Destiny, it shouldn't be trouble to remove very specific "Lightning rod words" from their vocabulary and as such he places the responsibility on the speaker. inControl did come off a bit smug and sharp but some of it was in response to slightly fallacious arguments by Destiny, both had good points mixed in though. It's nice to see someone I disagree with having a much more reasonable perspective. Destiny was right to an extent with his "Where do you draw the line" thing, society commonly uses "retarded" as an expletive to say a person or situation is stupid. I've seen many a person on this community use that word negatively, too. I would actually go so far as to say using "That was retarded", or variations of that are much more offensive than the usage of "rape" during a flawless victory in SC2. I just find it really interesting that nobody has even touched on that. There's a reason, it's because using it has become common-place. Like a lot of youth around me, including myself, used "that's gay" for things we didn't like. I still see people use it that way in the outside world. It's important to realize words do change, and even if they do have some weight to them, people need to realize they're just words and you can stop listening at any time. I just think people need to stop fighting over this, because it's just a grey area. You don't have to support Destiny, just let him do his own thing. | ||
|
Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote: I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney? | ||
|
Homosax
20 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote: I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. It's called being secure. I'm not going to let some guy on the internet make me question my own identity. Even if he said things like "nigger faggot" maliciously, I wouldn't care. They're just words, and you can be just as offensive with safe words, too. | ||
|
PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:38 Mailing wrote: No shit, it's his personal stream. Do you think he would say it if he ever casted a tourney? So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant. | ||
|
Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:36 Homosax wrote: It's nice to see someone I disagree with having a much more reasonable perspective. Destiny was right to an extent with his "Where do you draw the line" thing, society commonly uses "retarded" as an expletive to say a person or situation is stupid. I've seen many a person on this community use that word negatively, too. I would actually go so far as to say using "That was retarded", or variations of that are much more offensive than the usage of "rape" during a flawless victory in SC2. I just find it really interesting that nobody has even touched on that. There's a reason, it's because using it has become common-place. Like a lot of youth around me, including myself, used "that's gay" for things we didn't like. I still see people use it that way in the outside world. It's important to realize words do change, and even if they do have some weight to them, people need to realize they're just words and you can stop listening at any time. I just think people need to stop fighting over this, because it's just a grey area. You don't have to support Destiny, just let him do his own thing. I was actually a little bit surprised when I heard a few people say "retarded" during a cast, Artosis actually said it during a GSL cast once, I think it can be slightly offensive, but I don't think it's really comparable with the "Lightning rod words" that were mentioned on the show because it's actually used for it's original intent, it's in slightly poor taste, but it's being used at least to my knowledge in the appropriate fashion to either compare a person's actions to that of someone who would be mentally retarded as opposed to attempting to change the meaning of the word based on context. I feel like the "where do we draw the line?" slippery slope argument doesn't work too well here because there are some words you can easily single out for their original usage. On May 31 2011 07:39 Homosax wrote: It's called being secure. I'm not going to let some guy on the internet make me question my own identity. Even if he said things like "nigger faggot" maliciously, I wouldn't care. They're just words, and you can be just as offensive with safe words, too. See, I don't know if this entirely works for me, because obviously you can be as offensive with safe words, but that doesn't seem relevant. If someone was being offensive with safe words, they'd be given just as much, if not more flack... But on the other hand these are some words where the origin of the word itself is made represent dehumanization and an explicitly hurtful experience, why use them in altered context. No one would be okay with you saying, "Look at that filthy black person, I hope he goes back to Africa" either, I certainly wouldn't be more okay with that than "Nigger", but the fact that the latter doesn't necessitate the former doesn't make either of them okay. Nigger has a deep rooted meaning, and the process of "removing the venom" from that word is much more painstaking and far less likely to yield positive results than just not using the word when you know it may offend some people. | ||
|
vyyye
Sweden3917 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:40 PanzerKing wrote: So basically, you don't give a fuck if what you say offends someone, because it's your stream and you can say what you want. That's pretty sad and pathetic, but it's not entirely indefensible. It just makes you crude and self-centered. But the fact that you missed the part about how his actions reflect on e-sports, on ROOT gaming, and on teamliquid - that's the part that makes you look ignorant. Since when does Destiny's personal stream represent Teamliquid or E-sports as a whole? Of course (within limits) he can say whatever he wants, it's his stream. | ||
|
Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 31 2011 08:07 vyyye wrote: Since when does Destiny's personal stream represent Teamliquid or E-sports as a whole? Of course (within limits) he can say whatever he wants, it's his stream. Well, I don't want to speak for inControl, but it would seem that he is of the opinion that once you get to a certain point, you do become somewhat of a representative for the sport and community you're a part of. He's sort of gone through this himself, where he used to say whatever the fuck he wanted and do whatever he wanted and used to get some flak for it, eventually he started honing up to the stupid shit he's done and so on... I think it's fair to say that to an extent Destiny is a representative of the Starcraft 2 community due to his popularity, but I don't know how far I'd stretch that... | ||
|
PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On May 31 2011 08:07 vyyye wrote: Since when does Destiny's personal stream represent Teamliquid or E-sports as a whole? Of course (within limits) he can say whatever he wants, it's his stream. How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. And the same is going to be true for any organization that invites him to stream through it's website, or to participate in a tournament that it hosts, for the exact same reason. | ||
|
vyyye
Sweden3917 Posts
On May 31 2011 08:23 PanzerKing wrote: How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. I don't know how old you are but at my age most would have enough reading comprehension to see that I never once mentioned ROOT. On May 31 2011 08:12 Mordiford wrote: Well, I don't want to speak for inControl, but it would seem that he is of the opinion that once you get to a certain point, you do become somewhat of a representative for the sport and community you're a part of. He's sort of gone through this himself, where he used to say whatever the fuck he wanted and do whatever he wanted and used to get some flak for it, eventually he started honing up to the stupid shit he's done and so on... I think it's fair to say that to an extent Destiny is a representative of the Starcraft 2 community due to his popularity, but I don't know how far I'd stretch that... I don't think censoring everyone popular is the right way to go though. E-sports left, e-sports right. There's a reason Destiny is popular while a lot of players far better than him barely break 300 viewers. | ||
|
PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On May 31 2011 08:26 vyyye wrote: I don't know how old you are but at my age most would have enough reading comprehension to see that I never once mentioned ROOT. Hit the refresh button and read the edit, since you need me to spell it out for you. A simple logical leap would have sufficed, but since you're a little slow, I made it more explicit for you. | ||
|
Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
On May 31 2011 07:35 PanzerKing wrote: I would have laughed at what Destiny was saying as well, if I wasn't so pissed off at his arrogance and self-centeredness. You know, it's wonderful that you don't take his use of the word "faggot" to be offensive. I'm glad that it doesn't bother you. But last night, Destiny basically said that, if he DID say something about gays that happened to offend you, he wouldn't give a fuck, because it's your fault for taking what he said the wrong way, and you don't get to say anything about what's insulting or unfair to you because you weren't beaten or killed during the Stonewall riots, or shot like Harvey Milk, or tortured like Matthew Shepard. In his opinion, unless you've experienced that sort of horror, you don't get to tell him what is or what isn't 'homophobic.' So basically, he doesn't care what you think, he doesn't care how you feel, and he doesn't care how his actions reflect on his sponsors or on TeamLiquid or on esports organizations in general. All that matters is that he didn't mean something a certain way, and everyone else has to just shut the fuck up and deal with it. But I'm glad that it doesn't bother you when he calls someone a 'nigger faggot', because he wouldn't give two shits if it did. Are you even serious? Do you think Destiny has some magic skills that enables him to go through his screen and travel to you and have a good look and come to the conclusion that your a faggot? It's a word used to insult people in the gaming community. I doubt everytime Destiny gets cheesed on the ladder and calls someone a faggot he actually think that the person he just lost to is a faggot because he does cheese builds in starcraft2. If you actually think people refer to the other persons sexual orientation when they call someone a faggot online you're fucking stupid and that's the end of it. | ||
|
Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 31 2011 08:23 PanzerKing wrote: How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. And the same is going to be true for any organization that invites him to stream through it's website, or to participate in a tournament that it hosts, for the exact same reason. Even though that guy didn't mention ROOT, you decided to focus on that aspect... Also, i think that's a bit of a stretch because what he mentioned was clearly his personal opinion in that regard. Go scroll to the bottom of this page, see what it says... Just because someone in an organization has an opinion and expresses it, doesn't mean that it reflects the opinions or stance of the organization. That said, I do think it's somewhat reflective but you're stretching it. | ||
|
relyt
United States1073 Posts
On May 31 2011 08:23 PanzerKing wrote: How can you possibly think that it doesn't? I don't know how old you are, or what your workplace experience is like, but people are fired and sanctioned every day for things that they do online or within the privacy of their own home, becuase of how those things reflect on their organizations. Right now, the fact that ROOT is standing by Destiny is a tacit endorsement of everything he said yesterday on the show, including his comment about "black kids wearing $200 sneakers", and everything he says on his stream. They're essentially affixing their seal of approval to what he's saying, and now ROOT has to deal with that image, whether they like it or not. And the same is going to be true for any organization that invites him to stream through it's website, or to participate in a tournament that it hosts, for the exact same reason. That is a private matter between destiny and his team. That has nothing to do with his representation of e-sports. Any reasonable person should realize that Destiny is not a representation of a whole community, if they do they are fools. Destiny can say whatever he wants to say and suffer the consequences, but that is his problem, not ours. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Stormgate Dota 2 Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Heroes of the Storm Other Games summit1g8195 FrodaN1873 Dendi1587 JuggernautJason1586 Beastyqt944 shahzam727 elazer486 Pyrionflax194 ViBE91 Trikslyr83 QueenE58 Skadoodle53 |
|
Replay Cast
SOOP
SKillous vs Spirit
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
PiG Sty Festival
Serral vs TriGGeR
Cure vs SHIN
The PondCast
Replay Cast
PiG Sty Festival
Clem vs Bunny
Solar vs Zoun
Replay Cast
Korean StarCraft League
PiG Sty Festival
herO vs Rogue
ByuN vs SKillous
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
