On May 31 2011 04:48 Neeh wrote: If you're offended by stuff, avoid it. Dont watch it and ignore it. He dosen't impose himself upon others, he offers a stream with harsh langauge, you chose to watch.
I dont get the big idea.
His shit is imposed on everyone who wants anything to do with SC2 community. Look at Teamliquid forums, look at /r/Starcraft, look anywhere, and you see stuff about Destiny popping up all the time. For some reason.
On May 31 2011 04:48 Neeh wrote: If you're offended by stuff, avoid it. Dont watch it and ignore it. He dosen't impose himself upon others, he offers a stream with harsh langauge, you chose to watch.
I dont get the big idea.
His shit is imposed on everyone who wants anything to do with SC2 community. Look at Teamliquid forums, look at /r/Starcraft, look anywhere, and you see stuff about Destiny popping up all the time. For some reason.
Because other people keep posting shit about him? Its not like he's flooding the msg boards with offensive content. He has his youtube channel and stream, everyone else is talking about him. Usually with the posts starting off as "omg destiny did this, he shouldnt have because hes a disgrace to the community". But yet those people dont seem to mind giving him more and more exposure.
And inc didn't make good arguments. He kept hammering the same line over and over again about catering to the 0.00001% of the population that is always on the lookout for a reason to become angry and refuses to accept any explanation than their own subjectively construed reality as absolute truth (It doesn't matter that you didn't mean it that way. In my dictionary that word is offensive and carries a set objective meaning), while Destiny argued against them. The only way inc rebuted Destiny (and Wheats) arguments were "I see what you did there", "(condescending laughter) I can't believe I'm hearing this" and "are you serious?!".
Uh, not really. Incontrol rebutted the context argument repeatedly, while Destiny responded only by repeating himself about context and making vague statements about transparency and sincerity. It's funny that you only said "Destiny argued against them" without elaborating. You clearly only heard what you wanted to hear.
On May 31 2011 04:48 Neeh wrote: If you're offended by stuff, avoid it. Dont watch it and ignore it. He dosen't impose himself upon others, he offers a stream with harsh langauge, you chose to watch.
I dont get the big idea.
His shit is imposed on everyone who wants anything to do with SC2 community. Look at Teamliquid forums, look at /r/Starcraft, look anywhere, and you see stuff about Destiny popping up all the time. For some reason.
I spend too much time in this thread but whatever. Maybe he's successful because so many people actually enjoy his stream. And MAYBE there's a reason for it - and no, as much as it might hurt you, you don't have to be a 12 y.o. with crass humor to enjoy what he does. Nothing is imposed to you. If you can't stop googling more than 10 seconds to avoid anything related to him, the problem is on you. The real problem - to me - is a tiny loud crowd who thinks they have to impose their views upon others. Just move to another stream if that makes you feel better, and enjoy it until someone decides it's offensive for whatever reason and they start calling you a -*****- because you actually enjoy it.
Everytime I open this thread it feels like there's a Jehovah witness knocking on my door. What a day.
Obviosuly context is everything. Who you are with, the feel and shape of the conversation, the history you have of those involved in the discussion etc.
I often get the feelin as for the n-word that only ppl that dont actually know or talk to black ppl really feel that the N-word is loaded with connotative meaning, and for ppl that have a more relaxed relation to racial colours dont really reflect on it as worthy of special attention.
That is definately true at my workplace, although as one of my black workmates said one time when we were discussing the topic, black ppl in Sweden dont have a history of slavery, so things that are not offensive to him might be so to afro-americans.
On May 30 2011 19:15 Archvil3 wrote: On a sidenote, in an intelectual battle of words, where it doesnt matter who is right or wrong but simply who can argue better, Destiny mobbed the floor with inControl. It wasnt even close and one of the reasons why I really like Destiny, even when I dont agree with him, he always backs up his opinions with argements and I can see where he is comming from.
Did we honestly listen to the same debate?
Destiny didn't even respond to any actual points Incontrol made, he kept hammering away at "it's context" and when Incontrol explained that Destiny's context doesn't matter when there's a negative connotation for the listener embedded in that word. Destiny's response was that only the context of the speaker matters. Okay, that's a bit of a dumb position, but I guess it's internally valid.
He never explained why the listener's context doesn't matter, other than calling himself a sincere person. The only thing he "won" was the contest of who could come out with the most self-absorbed, myopic, and least empathetic white guy position possible.
thats why people are racist the black, gay, crippled guy. just ruined his life just cause he said a joke thx
So because one black, gay, crippled guy did something bad in a hypothetical story, bigotry towards entire demographics is justified?
I don't get this feeling at all while listening to Destiny. He might have defaults and his language might be foul at time but it's my feelings that his intentions are honest and he never means to be mean, racist, homophobic, and so on and that's all that matters to me. Whereas by reading you I could also deduct out of god knows where that you're self-absorbed, myopic, least empathetic possible person (and you shouldn't have to care because it's only in the context of the speaker). And I don't anyway. But this thought police trying to tell people what words they can and cannot use and putting people on trial for intentions they don't have is annoying. Can't you people gather and agree on a list of words viable for the internet or TL (you might even get a little icon next to your name so we know who you are) ? Take Inc as a leader (he'll sure love the attention) and don't forget to ask every hurt minority around the world what can or cannot be used and stuff it down the throat of everyone else. Or is it only a couple of white american who are gonna list the banned words for the rest of the world ?
On a second note, I'm not american so I don't understand this need to ban words, even more in THE country where freedom of speech matters but to me, that's what Destiny advocates, and his choice of words seems way less offensive than people who try and tell him how he should speak.
As other posters have already stated it isn't that Destiny's intentions are noble but we can't get over the words. It is he chooses exactly these words because his intentions are to offend and then acts like he has his own special context so it is alright. I don't care if he actually believes anything racist or homophobic but as long as he continues to use slurs that forward those agendas and demean those people.
I don't think anyone has ever said anything about censorship or banning of words in this entire debate so save the free speech bravado for somewhere it actually applies. What we are talking about here is what words you should use not what words you have to use. If you want to be a huge douche by using words that you know are synonymous with hatred for certain groups then expect to be called a huge douche and people to be upset.
Also I want to say that it isn't this .00001% who are actually effected but a lot more people who are just the victims. I think it is wrong to use a lot of the slurs they were talking about but I might not have a problem as long as it isn't excessive. Also as long as who is using them knows they are wrong and is cognoscente of how they could effect other people. Some lightning rod words come with a lot of racist and sexist baggage and to pretend that you aren't using that baggage or that you are using it in an innocent way is just duplicitous or down right stupid.
And inc didn't make good arguments. He kept hammering the same line over and over again about catering to the 0.00001% of the population that is always on the lookout for a reason to become angry and refuses to accept any explanation than their own subjectively construed reality as absolute truth (It doesn't matter that you didn't mean it that way. In my dictionary that word is offensive and carries a set objective meaning), while Destiny argued against them. The only way inc rebuted Destiny (and Wheats) arguments were "I see what you did there", "(condescending laughter) I can't believe I'm hearing this" and "are you serious?!".
Uh, not really. Incontrol rebutted the context argument repeatedly, while Destiny responded only by repeating himself about context and making vague statements about transparency and sincerity. It's funny that you only said "Destiny argued against them" without elaborating. You clearly only heard what you wanted to hear.
I'm usually a iNcontrol fanboy and I hadn't ever heard about Destiny before I watched Live on Three yesterday, so I can't identify with you saying I went into this biased. I usually think iNcontrol is very eloquent and makes good arguments, but last night I was pretty shocked listening to him. I really didn't know whether to take him serious or if he was trolling. I don't think Destiny's statements about transparency and sincerity were vague at all. He kept comming with rational arguments and examples illustrating his point, and all iNcontrol was doing was acting outraged, flabergasted and condescending.
On May 31 2011 05:19 SlipperySnake wrote: It is he chooses exactly these words because his intentions are to offend and then acts like he has his own special context so it is alright.
So your whole argument relies on your superimposing intentions on Destiny?
If he says that is not his intentions, would you accept that?
I definately agree with the former writer that said that Destiny never come across to me as a racist or anything else, quite the contrary he seems very open minded. I definately dont think his intentions are to be offensive; on the contrary I think his relaxed relation to how he speaks about these issues mirrors his relaxed relation to the issues themselves.
I also think the value-loaded relation many of the debaters here seem to have about words regarding these issues, mirrors the value-loaded relation many of the debaters have with the issues. It just oozes bigotry all over.
On May 31 2011 05:32 darthfoley wrote: someone fill me in, what was the debate and the hype surrounding it?
Destiny says it's fine to say certain words depending on context. For example, "rape" is fine if the context has nothing to do with sexual assault. For example ending a game with "Wow, I absolutely raped his mineral line with my blue flames".
Incontrol said it's never okay, because there's a chance a person who is a fan of Destiny will watch Destiny with his girlfriend. Said girlfriend was raped and when she hears Destiny say "rape" it reminds her of it and she gets really offended. That's the actual example he used. In other words Incontrol argued that some words should never be used as some people, if a minority, might be offended.
No conclusion was drawn as to where the line should go. And now people are causing a shitstorm. That's pretty much what's happening.
On May 31 2011 05:19 SlipperySnake wrote: It is he chooses exactly these words because his intentions are to offend and then acts like he has his own special context so it is alright.
So your whole argument relies on your superimposing intentions on Destiny?
If he says that is not his intentions, would you accept that?
I definately agree with the former writer that said that Destiny never come across to me as a racist or anything else, quite the contrary he seems very open minded. I definately dont think his intentions are to be offensive; on the contrary I think his relaxed relation to how he speaks about these issues mirrors his relaxed relation to the issues themselves.
I also think the contrived relation many of the debaters here seem to have about words regarding these issues, mirrors the contrived relation many of the debaters have with the issues. It just eeks bigottery all over.
I would really like to hear what his intentions are when he is using these words. I think this idea that I am attributing intentions to him that he doesn't have is complete bull. I am very familiar with how words like faggot are used in the gaming community. In fact I have been guilty of using them myself. People don't use a word like faggot for some positive reason, it is meant to put down a person ostensibly by calling them homosexual in the most offensive way possible. If Destiny is using it in some weird context he should at least be aware of what it means to other people. He doesn't get to redefine words, words have meanings. The meaning of the word and all its baggage is the first step to understand what someone is talking about. Then comes putting it into context.
In the case of these slurs there is often not many or no contexts in which it is meant to be non-offensive.
Also I just wanted to add that you should probably avoid the whole projection argument. If you think I do think racism and homophobia are still issues then you are right, I do. Destiny being nonchalant about an issue doesn't mean he has a better grip of the situation in any sense. Personally I don't care if he is relaxed or super uptight about it because it has nothing to do with how valid his argument is. Certainly it isn't a statement on whether or not he is a bigot. It seems pretty both nonsensical and inappropriate to insinuate that I am possibly a bigot.
Anyways the meanings of these words aren't something magically contrived. They have been built up as hateful language over a long period of time which has limited the contexts in which they are appropriate to similar settings. Destiny is using them as such and not with some archaic definition or context.
On May 30 2011 19:15 Archvil3 wrote: On a sidenote, in an intelectual battle of words, where it doesnt matter who is right or wrong but simply who can argue better, Destiny mobbed the floor with inControl. It wasnt even close and one of the reasons why I really like Destiny, even when I dont agree with him, he always backs up his opinions with argements and I can see where he is comming from.
Did we honestly listen to the same debate?
Destiny didn't even respond to any actual points Incontrol made, he kept hammering away at "it's context" and when Incontrol explained that Destiny's context doesn't matter when there's a negative connotation for the listener embedded in that word. Destiny's response was that only the context of the speaker matters. Okay, that's a bit of a dumb position, but I guess it's internally valid.
He never explained why the listener's context doesn't matter, other than calling himself a sincere person. The only thing he "won" was the contest of who could come out with the most self-absorbed, myopic, and least empathetic white guy position possible.
thats why people are racist the black, gay, crippled guy. just ruined his life just cause he said a joke thx
So because one black, gay, crippled guy did something bad in a hypothetical story, bigotry towards entire demographics is justified?
I don't get this feeling at all while listening to Destiny. He might have defaults and his language might be foul at time but it's my feelings that his intentions are honest and he never means to be mean, racist, homophobic, and so on and that's all that matters to me. Whereas by reading you I could also deduct out of god knows where that you're self-absorbed, myopic, least empathetic possible person (and you shouldn't have to care because it's only in the context of the speaker). And I don't anyway. But this thought police trying to tell people what words they can and cannot use and putting people on trial for intentions they don't have is annoying. Can't you people gather and agree on a list of words viable for the internet or TL (you might even get a little icon next to your name so we know who you are) ? Take Inc as a leader (he'll sure love the attention) and don't forget to ask every hurt minority around the world what can or cannot be used and stuff it down the throat of everyone else. Or is it only a couple of white american who are gonna list the banned words for the rest of the world ?
On a second note, I'm not american so I don't understand this need to ban words, even more in THE country where freedom of speech matters but to me, that's what Destiny advocates, and his choice of words seems way less offensive than people who try and tell him how he should speak.
As other posters have already stated it isn't that Destiny's intentions are noble but we can't get over the words. It is he chooses exactly these words because his intentions are to offend and then acts like he has his own special context so it is alright. I don't care if he actually believes anything racist or homophobic but as long as he continues to use slurs that forward those agendas and demean those people.
I don't think anyone has ever said anything about censorship or banning of words in this entire debate so save the free speech bravado for somewhere it actually applies. What we are talking about here is what words you should use not what words you have to use. If you want to be a huge douche by using words that you know are synonymous with hatred for certain groups then expect to be called a huge douche and people to be upset.
Also I want to say that it isn't this .00001% who are actually effected but a lot more people who are just the victims. I think it is wrong to use a lot of the slurs they were talking about but I might not have a problem as long as it isn't excessive. Also as long as who is using them knows they are wrong and is cognoscente of how they could effect other people. Some lightning rod words come with a lot of racist and sexist baggage and to pretend that you aren't using that baggage or that you are using it in an innocent way is just duplicitous or down right stupid.
Oh, because you are the one to define other people's intentions ? Who defines yours, I must have missed that part ? If no one is doing it yet, can I be the one, can I, can I ? When I call one of my gay friends a faggot during one of our conversations - and he laughs about it, should I send you a mail so you can confirm both he and I are complete offensive douches (don't know if you're gay but it doesn't matter, it's obvious you should be the one setting our standards) ? I have plenty of other friends with the same problem, we're totally deficient, we can make fun of each other physical/moral characteristics. I'll whip my back thinking of you the next time this happens.
Now I just re-read your third paragraph. "I might not have a problem as long as it isn't excessive. Also as long as who is using them knows they are wrong and is cognoscente of how they could effect other people." I had forgotten what it was to say everything and then its opposite, thanks for the reminder.
The part with "it's not about freedom of speech, it's about what words you should use" was interesting too. You should be a politician or a religious zealot. "Hey it's not that you cannot make drawings of Allah, it's just that you shouldn't".
On May 31 2011 05:32 darthfoley wrote: someone fill me in, what was the debate and the hype surrounding it?
I think a lot of the debate centers around whether it is right or wrong to use racial slurs or words you know are offensive. Destiny has said that when he is using the words all the matters is context and that he doesn't want to censor himself. Incontrol has said that words are more than just context and that you should be careful using words that have a history of disparaging certain groups.
On May 31 2011 05:19 SlipperySnake wrote: I think this idea that I am attributing intentions to him that he doesn't have is complete bull.
I see.
Also I just wanted to add that you should probably avoid the whole projection argument.
See previous. Enough said.
It seems pretty both nonsensical and inappropriate to insinuate that I am possibly a bigot.
Maybe we should agree to disagree on this one?
Anyways the meanings of these words aren't something magically contrived. They have been built up as hateful language over a long period of time which has limited the contexts in which they are appropriate to similar settings. Destiny is using them as such and not with some archaic definition or context.
This last statement would actually be interesting to discuss though. How would you go about reclaiming a word and at the same time ban it from mainstream use? A wise person whos name escapes me once said that it is in the process of banning a word from use that the word actually gets its stigma and negative impact. And since you disregard context as a factor, the only way is to forbid their uses.
In sweden we have a very recent example of the word "Blatte". It was/is a deragatory word for foreigners from a certain area. These foreigners started to reclaim that word, slowly transforming its connotative meaning to something more positive, and as it reached mainstream now the word "Blatte" is not perceived as very negative at all.
I would say that the Pride-festival operates under the same assumption, hiding something aways is just increasing the stigmas attached to the phenomena. Would you say that the word Fag in itself is negative? (since context does not matter). In Sweden homosexuality is pretty undramatic so its hard to really understand the drama regarding this in the US.
On May 30 2011 19:15 Archvil3 wrote: On a sidenote, in an intelectual battle of words, where it doesnt matter who is right or wrong but simply who can argue better, Destiny mobbed the floor with inControl. It wasnt even close and one of the reasons why I really like Destiny, even when I dont agree with him, he always backs up his opinions with argements and I can see where he is comming from.
Did we honestly listen to the same debate?
Destiny didn't even respond to any actual points Incontrol made, he kept hammering away at "it's context" and when Incontrol explained that Destiny's context doesn't matter when there's a negative connotation for the listener embedded in that word. Destiny's response was that only the context of the speaker matters. Okay, that's a bit of a dumb position, but I guess it's internally valid.
He never explained why the listener's context doesn't matter, other than calling himself a sincere person. The only thing he "won" was the contest of who could come out with the most self-absorbed, myopic, and least empathetic white guy position possible.
thats why people are racist the black, gay, crippled guy. just ruined his life just cause he said a joke thx
So because one black, gay, crippled guy did something bad in a hypothetical story, bigotry towards entire demographics is justified?
I don't get this feeling at all while listening to Destiny. He might have defaults and his language might be foul at time but it's my feelings that his intentions are honest and he never means to be mean, racist, homophobic, and so on and that's all that matters to me. Whereas by reading you I could also deduct out of god knows where that you're self-absorbed, myopic, least empathetic possible person (and you shouldn't have to care because it's only in the context of the speaker). And I don't anyway. But this thought police trying to tell people what words they can and cannot use and putting people on trial for intentions they don't have is annoying. Can't you people gather and agree on a list of words viable for the internet or TL (you might even get a little icon next to your name so we know who you are) ? Take Inc as a leader (he'll sure love the attention) and don't forget to ask every hurt minority around the world what can or cannot be used and stuff it down the throat of everyone else. Or is it only a couple of white american who are gonna list the banned words for the rest of the world ?
On a second note, I'm not american so I don't understand this need to ban words, even more in THE country where freedom of speech matters but to me, that's what Destiny advocates, and his choice of words seems way less offensive than people who try and tell him how he should speak.
As other posters have already stated it isn't that Destiny's intentions are noble but we can't get over the words. It is he chooses exactly these words because his intentions are to offend and then acts like he has his own special context so it is alright. I don't care if he actually believes anything racist or homophobic but as long as he continues to use slurs that forward those agendas and demean those people.
I don't think anyone has ever said anything about censorship or banning of words in this entire debate so save the free speech bravado for somewhere it actually applies. What we are talking about here is what words you should use not what words you have to use. If you want to be a huge douche by using words that you know are synonymous with hatred for certain groups then expect to be called a huge douche and people to be upset.
Also I want to say that it isn't this .00001% who are actually effected but a lot more people who are just the victims. I think it is wrong to use a lot of the slurs they were talking about but I might not have a problem as long as it isn't excessive. Also as long as who is using them knows they are wrong and is cognoscente of how they could effect other people. Some lightning rod words come with a lot of racist and sexist baggage and to pretend that you aren't using that baggage or that you are using it in an innocent way is just duplicitous or down right stupid.
Oh, because you are the one to define other people's intentions ? Who defines yours, I must have missed that part ? If no one is doing it yet, can I be the one, can I, can I ? When I call one of my gay friends a faggot during one of our conversations - and he laughs about it, should I send you a mail so you can confirm both he and I are complete offensive douches (don't know if you're gay but it doesn't matter, it's obvious you should be the one setting our standards) ? I have plenty of other friends with the same problem, we're totally deficient, we can make fun of each other physical/moral characteristics. I'll whip my back thinking of you the next time this happens.
Now I just re-read your third paragraph. "I might not have a problem as long as it isn't excessive. Also as long as who is using them knows they are wrong and is cognoscente of how they could effect other people." I had forgotten what it was to say everything and then its opposite, thanks for the reminder.
The part with "it's not about freedom of speech, it's about what words you should use" was interesting too. You should be a politician or a religious zealot. "Hey it's not that you cannot make drawings of Allah, it's just that you shouldn't".
Pretty amusing reply although a lot of it was nonsense. Are you really arguing that Destiny would use the word faggot in a way similar to how you have used it? If that or extremely similar cases is the only way Destiny uses the word then sure I read his intentions wrong but I am pretty sure that isn't the case. People read others intentions, it seems like you are completely new to this. There simply aren't that many ways to use these kind of slurs even when you are directly talking to just a friend but that isn't at all the context Destiny is using them in. He is using them when he is broadcasting to thousands of people.
Onto you point of saying the opposite, what are you talking about? I was saying that I understand when people don't live up to the ideal. I understand when people make mistakes and say things they shouldn't. What I am saying I don't understand is when people make a mistake but won't admit it and fall back onto some special context. A large part of this argument isn't just how Destiny interprets his own words but how other interpret his words. If you want to say that other are interpreting him wrong then that is your prerogative but it seems pretty insensitive and negligent of the historical meanings of these words.
My position is not at all like drawing of the prophet Muhammed (and I won't make some snarky comment about how you are wrong because this is getting uselessly heated). I don't want Destiny to use the words not because they are holy to me and cause me offense but because they perpetuate these stereotypes that have led to harm in the past. Making the word faggot into such an aggressively negative word or at least supporting its use in that way validates those who actually do have that intention. The point is these words have a history of spurring violence and hatred so using them should be taken with a grain of salt. I would relate it more to the Obama monkey cartoons because although the individual context may have been a cartoon you have to also have some historical context. I am not saying I agree with everything that happened in that situation I am just saying it isn't just happenstance when people all interpret your intentions in a certain way. It is based on more than what you personally want your words to mean oftentimes and you have to be aware of that is all.
Nope. You almost argued coherently but then you had to bring the typical wide sweeping generalizations that make you look like a moron.
I'm 20 years old, I'm gay, and incredibly well cultured. I don't think I fit any of your generalizations.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you know any better.
Please think before you speak, and try to be less offensive next time.[/QUOTE]
I dont know what your point is....
Are you just saying that your not an average dumb 13 year old but you still think Destiny is clever and funny? I dont see how that makes me look like a moron, it just makes you look stupid. At least 13 year olds that love it have the excuse of age.[/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm saying you're an idiot for even attempting to make an unfounded generalization. You have nothing to prove your claims, if anything Destiny appeals to 17-20 year old males. My point is that you're too enraged to even argue coherently.
Don't generalize when you can't even back it up. I should probably report you or something since all you can do is resort to personal insults, but I don't think the staff here give a shit.
Anyways the meanings of these words aren't something magically contrived. They have been built up as hateful language over a long period of time which has limited the contexts in which they are appropriate to similar settings. Destiny is using them as such and not with some archaic definition or context.
This last statement would actually be interesting to discuss though. How would you go about reclaiming a word and at the same time ban it from mainstream use? A wise person whos name escapes me once said that it is in the process of banning a word from use that the word actually gets its stigma and negative impact. And since you disregard context as a factor, the only way is to forbid their uses.
In sweden we have a very recent example of the word "Blatte". It was/is a deragatory word for foreigners from a certain area. These foreigners started to reclaim that word, slowly transforming its connotative meaning to something more positive, and as it reached mainstream now the word "Blatte" is not perceived as very negative at all.
I would say that the Pride-festival operates under the same assumption, hiding something aways is just increasing the stigmas attached to the phenomena. Would you say that the word Fag in itself is negative? (since context does not matter). In Sweden homosexuality is pretty undramatic so its hard to really understand the drama regarding this in the US.
I can't really have a rational discussion if you just want to start insulting me but I guess I will try one more time.
Reclaiming a word is one way of getting rid of a hateful word but the other more reasonable way is extinction. You don't need to reinvent a word for it to go out of use but rather all you need to do is stop using it. I am not saying you have to agree and take the same approach I just think that if you want to reinvent the meaning for a word you should probably be very specific and use it in a positive way. This doesn't seem at all like what Destiny is doing so I don't even know why you brought this up.
Also the people to decide whether they want to reinvent a word is the people who were wronged by it as your example shows. There are pretty of racial slurs that I can think of for former immigrants that have gone extinct for our current language and I think that words like nigger and faggot should go with them.
On the topic of the word faggot in particular, I just want to go into what it is like in America because it is very different it seems. It seems like there are constantly news stories about kids getting beat up and called faggots only to eventually kill themselves or even in some cases get murdered. The effect of the word and demonizing one group by identifying them with being a negative expletive has legitimately damaged peoples lives.
I might not have been clear before the context does have some effect it is just with a word like faggot there are very few situations where the context can change the meaning. This is one of those cases where Destiny is identifying the people he hates as faggots which is a context in which it is promoting the use of the word in a derogatory way. I don't think he would ever agree with the way other people have used the word but by helping to make it commonplace by repeating it in front of thousands of people he is trivializing the real negative effect it has had on people.
I guess to me it is just really sad that we as a gaming community approve of using the word(Destiny is by no means the only one and SC2 as a whole is saintly compared to other communities) because it is unnecessary and furthering homophobia. I know people will make mistakes when they are angry but I just wish they wouldn't argue that those mistakes don't matter because either the people who will be offended won't hurt their profit or they want to be honest about their language. I want to make this extra clear because I don't want to have to read 3 responses saying it isn't Destiny's fault people do bad things. Destiny isn't responsible for what idiots to do gay people but he can in some ways control the public acceptance of even just some of the language that justifies it.
Why does incontrol use words like "fixate" wrong? I thought he was some smart debate team champ? Why can't he use words correctly? Seriously, it's a great word until you use it wrong and then you just show yourself as a sesquipedalian ass.
And inc didn't make good arguments. He kept hammering the same line over and over again about catering to the 0.00001% of the population that is always on the lookout for a reason to become angry and refuses to accept any explanation than their own subjectively construed reality as absolute truth (It doesn't matter that you didn't mean it that way. In my dictionary that word is offensive and carries a set objective meaning), while Destiny argued against them. The only way inc rebuted Destiny (and Wheats) arguments were "I see what you did there", "(condescending laughter) I can't believe I'm hearing this" and "are you serious?!".
Uh, not really. Incontrol rebutted the context argument repeatedly, while Destiny responded only by repeating himself about context and making vague statements about transparency and sincerity. It's funny that you only said "Destiny argued against them" without elaborating. You clearly only heard what you wanted to hear.
I'm usually a iNcontrol fanboy and I hadn't ever heard about Destiny before I watched Live on Three yesterday, so I can't identify with you saying I went into this biased. I usually think iNcontrol is very eloquent and makes good arguments, but last night I was pretty shocked listening to him. I really didn't know whether to take him serious or if he was trolling. I don't think Destiny's statements about transparency and sincerity were vague at all. He kept comming with rational arguments and examples illustrating his point, and all iNcontrol was doing was acting outraged, flabergasted and condescending.
Since you're only speaking in generalities about the show, I'm gonna provide some specific excerpts that fly in the face of that bolded sentence.
Destiny: I think it's an insult to black people who were disparaged in the United States when somebody today claims the same offensiveness to a word that those people did earlier and tries to identify with that group of people...
Inctontrol: Part of the reason why it's not your place to deem their exerience with their race and racism as offensive or legitimate is because you're not walking in their shoes...If a person does experience racism and they have a good job, it's not like they get to channel the exact rage and discomfort of the 1950s in order for them to identify with that term being offensive.
Destiny: Honestly you can't believe that the word nigger carries teh same implications today as it did 50 years ago.
Incontrol: I think it's shallow to say that because your context of how you used it is inoffensive from your perspective, that for their context for it to also be inoffensive for them too because you didn't mean it that way.
Destiny: It's impossible to curtail your individual message to make sure that you don't offend any person out of a group of potentially millions of listeners.
Incontrol: Of course when I talk about the sun, some people are going to have a problem because their dad died of skin cancer...but when there's a word that we talk about, you know about, you've read in history, you've been educated....that carries a certain heavy heavy weight.
So yeah....when you say "The only way inc rebuted Destiny (and Wheats) arguments were "I see what you did there", "(condescending laughter) I can't believe I'm hearing this...", you're wrong.
EPT
