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On May 30 2011 20:01 IrrasO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 17:25 Manifesto7 wrote:On May 30 2011 17:14 rycho wrote:On May 30 2011 17:10 wzzit wrote:On May 30 2011 16:57 rycho wrote:On May 30 2011 16:47 PanzerKing wrote:On May 30 2011 16:39 rycho wrote:
if this argument/thread changed anything for me it is that i'm going to make more of an effort to say rape and gay to offend the stupid fucking idiots who actually can't handle hearing words Might make it hard to keep your job at McDonald's - I'd imagine that they have a fairly stiff policy on that sort of language =( That said, nobody really cares what you say, because you're a nobody. You can be stupid and ignorant all you like - nobody is listening to you. But when you affiliate yourself with an organization like ROOT, when a website features your stream prominently on their front page, and when you're invited by various organizations to compete in tournaments that they host, they take partial ownership of the things you say. That's why your prime spot working the Fry-o-later might be in jeopardy if you ramp up the hateful language, and that's why Destiny's 'argument' today is wrong on two levels - it's wrong in the factual/logical sense, and it's wrong in the realistic/practical sense. woah sick insult man, its almost as nonsensical as letting yourself actually give a shit what words anyone else uses. i really feel bad for people who actually care enough to be offended at what some guy says on a video game stream. i imagine these people walking along having a nice day and then someone says "fag" and they suddenly burst into tears because they think that particular syllable is morally objectionable. apparently you think that not giving a shit what kind of language people use makes me "ignorant", but your opinion is just flat-out wrong. Good luck getting anywhere in life with that attitude. what attitude exactly? not taking offense to things people (complete strangers, might i add) say? please, name a single situation in which this could hurt me in any meaningful way. + Show Spoiler +You and your buddy are walking through the parking lot after class when he tells you a joke about a black, gay, crippled guy. You laugh, because you don't get offended by such nonsense. Unfortunately, your black, gay, crippled math teacher overhears the exchange. Frowning in disapproval, he takes note of you in his grade book.
At the end of the term you sit down at your desk to take your final exam. Your heart rate is up at test time, but you are confident that your study time with the cute girl who tutors you will pay off. You flip over the paper to find questions that are far beyond the scope of the class. Worriedly you glance around the room and hear the noise of scratching pencils as your classmates scrunch their brows in concentration. You feel like something is wrong, but in the silence of the hall there is nothing you can say or do.
The hour draws out slowly. You are slumped in your chair, 40 minutes removed from your last attempt at solving the most basic question. As the bell rings and the invigilator collects the test, you look through the window and out into a grey day. Outside, staring at you with hard eyes, is your math teacher.
The results come in two months later. Denied. Denied. Denied. All the major universities you worked so hard to get into look at the single black mark and find a more suitable candidate. Raging against the injustice of the situation you turn to drugs. Cue the spiral. Soon enough you are on the street, your family has disowned you, and you are reduced to sucking dick for coke. With your best Bob Saget face, you approach a car that slows by your cardboard box. The door swings open, and you hurry forth, anxious for the salty release that will earn you another bag. Looking into the driver's eyes you see your black, gay, crippled math teacher. You know you should be angry, you know you should range. Instead you drop to your battered knees and earn your custom. this really isn't much of an argument against racism/sexism/discrimination as it is a violation of ethics by the math teacher. how ridiculously boring is the world going to be if everything that offends anyone can't be joked about anymore? especially in the setting of just two friends trying to make each other laugh and someone overhears them and takes offense to it.
It's official, everyone is taking everything way too seriously.
My god haha.
you are reduced to sucking dick for coke
You read this and still managed to think he was being serious?
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On May 30 2011 19:26 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 19:15 Archvil3 wrote:
On a sidenote, in an intelectual battle of words, where it doesnt matter who is right or wrong but simply who can argue better, Destiny mobbed the floor with inControl. It wasnt even close and one of the reasons why I really like Destiny, even when I dont agree with him, he always backs up his opinions with argements and I can see where he is comming from. Did we honestly listen to the same debate? Destiny didn't even respond to any actual points Incontrol made, he kept hammering away at "it's context" and when Incontrol explained that Destiny's context doesn't matter when there's a negative connotation for the listener embedded in that word. Destiny's response was that only the context of the speaker matters. Okay, that's a bit of a dumb position, but I guess it's internally valid. He never explained why the listener's context doesn't matter, other than calling himself a sincere person. The only thing he "won" was the contest of who could come out with the most self-absorbed, myopic, and least empathetic white guy position possible. Show nested quote +thats why people are racist the black, gay, crippled guy. just ruined his life just cause he said a joke thx So because one black, gay, crippled guy did something bad in a hypothetical story, bigotry towards entire demographics is justified?
I don't get this feeling at all while listening to Destiny. He might have defaults and his language might be foul at time but it's my feelings that his intentions are honest and he never means to be mean, racist, homophobic, and so on and that's all that matters to me.
Whereas by reading you I could also deduct out of god knows where that you're self-absorbed, myopic, least empathetic possible person (and you shouldn't have to care because it's only in the context of the speaker). And I don't anyway.
But this thought police trying to tell people what words they can and cannot use and putting people on trial for intentions they don't have is annoying.
Can't you people gather and agree on a list of words viable for the internet or TL (you might even get a little icon next to your name so we know who you are) ? Take Inc as a leader (he'll sure love the attention) and don't forget to ask every hurt minority around the world what can or cannot be used and stuff it down the throat of everyone else. Or is it only a couple of white american who are gonna list the banned words for the rest of the world ?
On a second note, I'm not american so I don't understand this need to ban words, even more in THE country where freedom of speech matters but to me, that's what Destiny advocates, and his choice of words seems way less offensive than people who try and tell him how he should speak.
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On May 30 2011 19:54 NeonGenesis wrote:
And inc didn't make good arguments. He kept hammering the same line over and over again about catering to the 0.00001% of the population that is always on the lookout for a reason to become angry and refuses to accept any explanation than their own subjectively construed reality as absolute truth (It doesn't matter that you didn't mean it that way. In my dictionary that word is offensive and carries a set objective meaning), while Destiny argued against them.
The only way inc rebuted Destiny (and Wheats) arguments were "I see what you did there", "(condescending laughter) I can't believe I'm hearing this" and "are you serious?!".
It's not a subjectively construed reality. The only one creating his own reality is Destiny.
He would not use the word "faggot" if it still referred to a bundle of wood. He uses it precisely because it's a slur. It's a slur because of homophobia. He can't suddenly declare that the word has nothing to do with homosexuality because it's patently untrue, despite what Destiny's own intentions are.
The same with rape. He doesn't literally mean "sexually assault", but the reason he uses that word is because it is a metaphor for ultimate humiliation. The reason it's a metaphor for ultimate humiliation is because it means sexual assault.
No matter what Destiny's own intentions are, those are objective facts of the etymology of the English language. That's the crux of Incontrol's position, and one that Destiny (and apparently his fans as well) completely missed.
I don't get this feeling at all while listening to Destiny. He might have defaults and his language might be foul at time but it's my feelings that his intentions are honest and he never means to be mean, racist, homophobic, and so on and that's all that matters to me.
NO ONE thinks Destiny means to be racist or homophobic. The very debate is that Destiny is saying that intention is all that matters, and Incontrol/myself saying that intention is irrelevant if the word itself is inherently offensive.
I've yet to hear an argument explaining why those words are not intrinsically offensive in the sense Destiny and others use them.
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On May 30 2011 20:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 15:35 Homosax wrote:On May 30 2011 15:31 Rabiator wrote:On May 30 2011 08:39 baeracaed wrote:
I will never understand this argument: "Where do you draw the line? How do I know what I can and can't say?".
It's called socialization and education. If you don't get out much, use google. It's not that hard to get a feel for what offends people. The arguments for/against restraint should stay focused on what the restraint accomplishes. Thats the problem of todays societies with their abundance of mobile phones, skype, emails ... you dont LEARN face to face communication anymore as a child and thus dont learn to have good social skills. Consequently people dont know where to draw a line because they dont realize it exists (and will always exist) and hurting people via "faceless insults" on forums is just too easy and leaves about zero chance for reprisals (except here on TL where you could get a ban). Just some alternatives for "shut the fuck up":- shut up (you can raise this to "different levels of annoyance" by repeating it and ending in an all uppercase SHUT UP in a written post / stream chat channel)
- get lost
- shut the hell up
- Shut it up, quick! Before it sucks us into the void that it is! (yes, you can be witty instead of aggressive too!)
- (just) be quiet!
- SIIIIIIIILEEEEENNNNCE!!!! (this works best spoken of course)
- talk to the hand
I mean the english language is soooo rich in its words that there is no need to be vulgar and to use swear words. The problem lies in the laziness of its users and their lack of creativity with words. To learn to be creative with words you need to understand that you need to spend time on them and THINK BEFORE SPEAKING (writing when on forums). Sadly due to the dependance on instant communication most people dont bother learning those skills. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shut the fuck up Just start at that part in the urban dictionary and look for similar phrases on the left. You might be surprised how creative people can be without using the word FUCK. The content of your examples is identical to "shut the fuck up" which just shows that it's just yet another way to express yourself. Don't you see the idiocy in all of this? How does using fuck make everything you say offensive? Destiny also mentioned you could not use cussing and still be offensive; See: every single post in this thread where someone tries to project that anyone who agrees with Destiny isn't educated. Really? Some words are not meant for "public use" and if I have to explain to you why *fuck* is an offensive word you probably have gotten used to it already, but it doesnt mean your standards are the same for everyone. Its the same argument which Destiny brought up that Nigger isnt as offensive nowadays as it was 60 years ago, but there still are people who would go fusion rather easily. Just try going into a black community and ask someone for directions "I am looking for a Nigger called XYZ, can you tell me where he lives." You might get some less than friendly responses. As a german I am pretty offended by non-germans throwing stupid phrases used by the Nazis around without thinking about them and their implications and using them to describe todays germans. In germany we have the same "problem" with the word "geil" (which originally meant horny / lustful / ruttish). It is used for everything now and has taken on meanings like "cool" in the last few years. Its still a stupid word to use for that meaning and there are still people offended by its frequent useage and there are still other german words to use instead. What made this word so popular? Music and ads(*1) and the kids desire to look cool by offending their parents in their use of offensive words. The gist of it is that as a "public figure" you are exposing yourself to the public and are responsible for whatever you say. People might be offended by what you say and if you dont care about it that is disrespectful of your fellow citizens. Thanks also for agreeing with me that there are LOADS of other phrases to use instead of "shut the fuck up", which pretty much proves that Destiny is just using these words because he doesnt know better and is uncreative in his language. Thats the positive way of explaining it and the negative way of explaining it is to assume that he does it to create scandal, to be cool for the kids who love scandal (right up there with "sex sells") and to get an increased viewership. The argument of "where do you draw the line" is just an argument not to bother with checking yourself and to have no standards at all and to be allowed to talk as much bullshit as you want. That isnt how societies work and it certainly isnt freedom. It feels like Destiny is only about Destinys freedom to say whatever he wants. The one question which all the people who "dont give a damn" havent asked is: How does swearing and using offensive language improve their commentary and our society? I think iNcontrol tried to ask it, but it got talked over and was forgotten. (*1) One famous TV spot campaign has declared "geiz ist geil" (miserliness is horny) and it was popular for some time. Nowadays they have switched the spot to just say "geil ist geil" (horny is horny) ... which is about as stupid as you can get. They could have said red is red as well, but it wouldnt have been as controversial then.
You're from Germany and you're gonna school americans on the usage of fuck and how they lack of creativity for using it ? This is getting more interesting by the minute.
"Destiny is only about Destinys freedom to say whatever he wants" ----> did he ever say anything else ?
And how would you feel if he came down to you and told you what words you're allowed to use ? Or is it a one-sided discussion ?
Also it's a show, with foul language, everyone knows it. Do you watch South Park and then write long emails to Comedy Central ? You wanna improve society through a TL forum? Turn the computer off and go visit grandma, that'd be a start (and yeah I should do the same).
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Just some alternatives for "shut the fuck up":
shut up (you can raise this to "different levels of annoyance" by repeating it and ending in an all uppercase SHUT UP in a written post / stream chat channel)
get lost
shut the hell up
Shut it up, quick! Before it sucks us into the void that it is! (yes, you can be witty instead of aggressive too!)
(just) be quiet!
SIIIIIIIILEEEEENNNNCE!!!! (this works best spoken of course)
talk to the hand
Lol what? None of these fill the role of "shut the fuck up", you must be trolling.
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Man, that is a point of american culture that puzzles me as a european so much.
You guys have the largest porn industry in the world, make films like saw which millions of people see etc. but god beware, someone says "fuck" hehe...
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Destiny's whole argument was ridiculous and didnt make any sense.
Firstly, he says everyone should accept these words as normal, because.... he thinks other
words dont have the same inpact. But then if the words were just accepted and normal then they wouldnt have the impact anyway, surely its the fact that your not politely meant to say these things that they have impact.
Then he makes up all this twaddle about it how he's so 'sincere' and almost says that his stream is a creative outlet.
Im sorry but no......... just no
This is what he does, he plays a computer game. He plays a computer game and he doesnt even do it particularly well.. There many other better people streaming.
So why do people watch him then?
Because he panders to the lowest common denominator. 13 year old kids who love calling each other fags on xbox live and whatever else love this crap. So he gives it to them and now he feels he has to stand up for the way he conducts himself making up all this faux outrage about comaparisons to violence and what he believes in blah blah blah because its how he makes his cash.
Its not clever and its not even funny, really is just aimed at young teenagers who love dirty words, a bit pathetic really.
Im not personally even offended by any of this stuff, i couldnt care less.
But coming up with all these rubbish arguments to defend it is just stupid.
If it floats your boat then fine, youll grow out of it eventually, or at least hopefully you will.
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On May 30 2011 20:23 Eurekastreet wrote:You're from Germany and you're gonna school americans on the usage of fuck and how they lack of creativity for using it ? This is getting more interesting by the minute.
And since when were ad hominem valid arguments?
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On May 30 2011 21:00 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 20:23 Eurekastreet wrote:You're from Germany and you're gonna school americans on the usage of fuck and how they lack of creativity for using it ? This is getting more interesting by the minute. And since when were ad hominem valid arguments?
That's not really an ad hominem, it's a tu quoque.
He's implying that you're being hypocritical because Germany is known for its censorship of hate speech, etc. Obviously it's a dumb argument, but it's not really an attack on you personally.
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Firstly, he says everyone should accept these words as normal, because.... he thinks other
words dont have the same inpact. But then if the words were just accepted and normal then they wouldnt have the impact anyway, surely its the fact that your not politely meant to say these things that they have impact.
That's subjective, and not a fact (as you make it seem like).
But I agree with a lot of the rest of your post, destiny is bad. 
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Do people really think black people call each other "Nigger"?????? Like seriously?
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On May 30 2011 20:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 15:35 Homosax wrote:On May 30 2011 15:31 Rabiator wrote:On May 30 2011 08:39 baeracaed wrote:
I will never understand this argument: "Where do you draw the line? How do I know what I can and can't say?".
It's called socialization and education. If you don't get out much, use google. It's not that hard to get a feel for what offends people. The arguments for/against restraint should stay focused on what the restraint accomplishes. Thats the problem of todays societies with their abundance of mobile phones, skype, emails ... you dont LEARN face to face communication anymore as a child and thus dont learn to have good social skills. Consequently people dont know where to draw a line because they dont realize it exists (and will always exist) and hurting people via "faceless insults" on forums is just too easy and leaves about zero chance for reprisals (except here on TL where you could get a ban). Just some alternatives for "shut the fuck up":- shut up (you can raise this to "different levels of annoyance" by repeating it and ending in an all uppercase SHUT UP in a written post / stream chat channel)
- get lost
- shut the hell up
- Shut it up, quick! Before it sucks us into the void that it is! (yes, you can be witty instead of aggressive too!)
- (just) be quiet!
- SIIIIIIIILEEEEENNNNCE!!!! (this works best spoken of course)
- talk to the hand
I mean the english language is soooo rich in its words that there is no need to be vulgar and to use swear words. The problem lies in the laziness of its users and their lack of creativity with words. To learn to be creative with words you need to understand that you need to spend time on them and THINK BEFORE SPEAKING (writing when on forums). Sadly due to the dependance on instant communication most people dont bother learning those skills. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shut the fuck up Just start at that part in the urban dictionary and look for similar phrases on the left. You might be surprised how creative people can be without using the word FUCK. The content of your examples is identical to "shut the fuck up" which just shows that it's just yet another way to express yourself. Don't you see the idiocy in all of this? How does using fuck make everything you say offensive? Destiny also mentioned you could not use cussing and still be offensive; See: every single post in this thread where someone tries to project that anyone who agrees with Destiny isn't educated. Really? Some words are not meant for "public use" and if I have to explain to you why *fuck* is an offensive word you probably have gotten used to it already, but it doesnt mean your standards are the same for everyone. Its the same argument which Destiny brought up that Nigger isnt as offensive nowadays as it was 60 years ago, but there still are people who would go fusion rather easily. Just try going into a black community and ask someone for directions "I am looking for a Nigger called XYZ, can you tell me where he lives." You might get some less than friendly responses. As a german I am pretty offended by non-germans throwing stupid phrases used by the Nazis around without thinking about them and their implications and using them to describe todays germans. In germany we have the same "problem" with the word "geil" (which originally meant horny / lustful / ruttish). It is used for everything now and has taken on meanings like "cool" in the last few years. Its still a stupid word to use for that meaning and there are still people offended by its frequent useage and there are still other german words to use instead. What made this word so popular? Music and ads(*1) and the kids desire to look cool by offending their parents in their use of offensive words. The gist of it is that as a "public figure" you are exposing yourself to the public and are responsible for whatever you say. People might be offended by what you say and if you dont care about it that is disrespectful of your fellow citizens. Thanks also for agreeing with me that there are LOADS of other phrases to use instead of "shut the fuck up", which pretty much proves that Destiny is just using these words because he doesnt know better and is uncreative in his language. Thats the positive way of explaining it and the negative way of explaining it is to assume that he does it to create scandal, to be cool for the kids who love scandal (right up there with "sex sells") and to get an increased viewership. The argument of "where do you draw the line" is just an argument not to bother with checking yourself and to have no standards at all and to be allowed to talk as much bullshit as you want. That isnt how societies work and it certainly isnt freedom. It feels like Destiny is only about Destinys freedom to say whatever he wants. The one question which all the people who "dont give a damn" havent asked is: How does swearing and using offensive language improve their commentary and our society? I think iNcontrol tried to ask it, but it got talked over and was forgotten. (*1) One famous TV spot campaign has declared "geiz ist geil" (miserliness is horny) and it was popular for some time. Nowadays they have switched the spot to just say "geil ist geil" (horny is horny) ... which is about as stupid as you can get. They could have said red is red as well, but it wouldnt have been as controversial then.
1) Destiny himself said he wouldn't use these words in public events like tournaments, only for his PERSONAL stream. Nobody is trying to get trashtalking acceptable in that form. Only that it should be allowed in personal streams.
2) Whether or not he's a public figure or not is irrelevant, Destiny has gotten a following BECAUSE of the way he acts and his humor.
3) Just because there are other words to use doesn't mean these words should be banned. If you paid any attention at all one of the high points in Destiny's argument was that using cuss words isn't indicative of hostility or immaturity, you can be just as offensive using safe words.
There is absolutely no reason we should be censoring streams or telling a person what they should do with their stream while they're immensely successful right now. Really, people.
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On May 30 2011 20:51 RedBack wrote:
Destiny's whole argument was ridiculous and didnt make any sense.
Firstly, he says everyone should accept these words as normal, because.... he thinks other
words dont have the same inpact. But then if the words were just accepted and normal then they wouldnt have the impact anyway, surely its the fact that your not politely meant to say these things that they have impact.
Then he makes up all this twaddle about it how he's so 'sincere' and almost says that his stream is a creative outlet.
Im sorry but no......... just no
This is what he does, he plays a computer game. He plays a computer game and he doesnt even do it particularly well.. There many other better people streaming.
So why do people watch him then?
Because he panders to the lowest common denominator. 13 year old kids who love calling each other fags on xbox live and whatever else love this crap. So he gives it to them and now he feels he has to stand up for the way he conducts himself making up all this faux outrage about comaparisons to violence and what he believes in blah blah blah because its how he makes his cash.
Its not clever and its not even funny, really is just aimed at young teenagers who love dirty words, a bit pathetic really.
Im not personally even offended by any of this stuff, i couldnt care less.
But coming up with all these rubbish arguments to defend it is just stupid.
If it floats your boat then fine, youll grow out of it eventually, or at least hopefully you will.
Nope. You almost argued coherently but then you had to bring the typical wide sweeping generalizations that make you look like a moron.
I'm 20 years old, I'm gay, and incredibly well cultured. I don't think I fit any of your generalizations.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you know any better.
Please think before you speak, and try to be less offensive next time.
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This is funny. I've seen it happen before, it was just as funny then.
No one forces you guys to watch Steven's stream, nor any other stream where the language might be "offensive".
I find it extremely amusing when people assume Destiny are stupid because of his choice of words, Thanks also for agreeing with me that there are LOADS of other phrases to use instead of "shut the fuck up", which pretty much proves that Destiny is just using these words because he doesnt know better and is uncreative in his language
If you think about it for a second, haven't this been up to debate before? Remember rock and roll? Same shit happened. All the political correct people came out crying because of the faul language and offensive shit on stage, does it really matter that much? Are your lives so boring that you have to, in the year 2011, cry about bad language? Really?
Steven aka Destiny is bad apple to the esports in the same say Marilyn Manson was for the music industry. I draw this comparison because people paint a picture of both Destiny and Manson to be stupid due to them being "offensive" whilst in fact it's the opposite. In this post I'll post a few clips from youtube with Marilyn Manson just to prove my point.
+ Show Spoiler + Esp the ending of this. There's also one where he is invited to be ridiculed at the Phil Donahue show but yet again proves that he is well spoken and very intelligent.
Destiny is exactly the same, i bet many came in to watch him be ridiculed but underestimate his intelligence. I did, but I was pleasantly surprised by his points of view and I was happy to see him stand up for himself.
As he said, this is America and western society in a nutshell. Violence and fear campaigns are OK, but saying the N word or the R word is offensive.
You all heard it on WoC, Destiny is in fact well spoken and he has very valid points in what he is saying.
Props to you Destiny for standing up on your beliefs, I can only wish my own kids becomes as intelligent and sharp tongued as you and I beg you, do not change a bit.
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On May 30 2011 21:09 FunkQue wrote:
Do people really think black people call each other "Nigger"?????? Like seriously?
I can't tell if you're trolling or not...have you ever listened to rap music? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N.W.A Or watched Chappelle's Show? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappelle's_Show#Notable_sketches Or any of the other mainstream black cultural outlets that use "nigga" gratuitously on television or radio? Oh wait, I get it, that's the troll: they don't call each other "Nigger", they call each other "nigga"...sigh
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On May 30 2011 21:27 hippiessmell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 21:09 FunkQue wrote:
Do people really think black people call each other "Nigger"?????? Like seriously? I can't tell if you're trolling or not...have you ever listened to rap music? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N.W.A Or watched Chappelle's Show? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappelle's_Show#Notable_sketches Or any of the other mainstream black cultural outlets that use "nigga" gratuitously on television or radio? Oh wait, I get it, that's the troll: they don't call each other "Nigger", they call each other "nigga"...sigh
Ugh... exactly... If it didn't matter which version was used, then why do they both exists? So back to my question.
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what is this i dont even...
another EU vs NA trashtalk? What did i miss?
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[/QUOTE]
Nope. You almost argued coherently but then you had to bring the typical wide sweeping generalizations that make you look like a moron.
I'm 20 years old, I'm gay, and incredibly well cultured. I don't think I fit any of your generalizations.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you know any better.
Please think before you speak, and try to be less offensive next time.[/QUOTE]
I dont know what your point is....
Are you just saying that your not an average dumb 13 year old but you still think Destiny is clever and funny?
I dont see how that makes me look like a moron, it just makes you look stupid.
At least 13 year olds that love it have the excuse of age.
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Incontrol cant live on his arguments alone, it's rediculous how he tries to belittle Destiny.
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Just because some people are desensitized about the "n word", doesn't mean that it should be thrown around without a care in the world. How would you like it if you knew someone that died in the 9/11 incident, and you heard someone on a stream saying, "die like a 9/11 victim". You'd see a fucking mutiny against that stream.
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EPT
