|
On May 30 2011 08:39 baeracaed wrote:
I will never understand this argument: "Where do you draw the line? How do I know what I can and can't say?".
It's called socialization and education. If you don't get out much, use google. It's not that hard to get a feel for what offends people. The arguments for/against restraint should stay focused on what the restraint accomplishes.
Thats the problem of todays societies with their abundance of mobile phones, skype, emails ... you dont LEARN face to face communication anymore as a child and thus dont learn to have good social skills. Consequently people dont know where to draw a line because they dont realize it exists (and will always exist) and hurting people via "faceless insults" on forums is just too easy and leaves about zero chance for reprisals (except here on TL where you could get a ban).
Just some alternatives for "shut the fuck up":
- shut up (you can raise this to "different levels of annoyance" by repeating it and ending in an all uppercase SHUT UP in a written post / stream chat channel)
- get lost
- shut the hell up
- Shut it up, quick! Before it sucks us into the void that it is! (yes, you can be witty instead of aggressive too!)
- (just) be quiet!
- SIIIIIIIILEEEEENNNNCE!!!! (this works best spoken of course)
- talk to the hand
I mean the english language is soooo rich in its words that there is no need to be vulgar and to use swear words. Sadly people insist upon using swear words because they are "more cool" than regular words and are also the most aggressive version which gets you "more attention" and responses.
The problem lies in the laziness of its users and their lack of creativity with words. To learn to be creative with words you need to understand that you need to spend time on them and THINK BEFORE SPEAKING (writing when on forums). Sadly due to the dependance on instant communication most people dont bother learning those skills.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shut the fuck up
Just start at that part in the urban dictionary and look for similar phrases on the left. You might be surprised how creative people can be without using the word FUCK.
|
On May 30 2011 15:03 ArgosDelta wrote:
Nigger in the gaming community is usually used in a situation where the speaker has suddenly come at a disadvantage due to a wily/unexpected move by his opponent OR as a greeting between friends.
Actually, nigger in the gaming community is when someone is mad at his/her opponent and wants to get back at that opponent by offending him/her with words. At least in my experience, that's the case in the vast majority of uses of the word nigger in video games.
|
I just want to say that streaming on the internet doesn't make it anymore special than other forms of mass media. Given this, if we want Esports to grow and go mainstream one day, we have to uphold the production of esports media to mainstream and professional standards, which will involve self-censorship.
Whether streamers like it or not, their personas on their streams are never going to truly reflect who they actually are. Being crass for the sake of "sincerity" imo is bullshit. One has to carefully look at how he's crafting his public image through streaming. Justin.tv is not our private backyard, as I feel some people believe it to be. For the sake of esports as a whole, I'd rather we not display ourselves as nerd-raging insensitive gamers, even if that is the truth.
|
On May 30 2011 14:54 kittensrcute wrote:
It honestly seems ridiculous that people can support the usage of words like "faggot", "nigger", "gay", and "rape". To ask people to learn to accept the usage of these words is absurd, even if the person saying these things doesn't mean harm by them.
You can't ask people to just get used to hearing them as many people (myself not included) are offended due to personal experiences. It is never acceptable to say something like "wow, I owned that faggot" on a stream that attracts thousands of daily viewers because there might be a viewer or viewers out there who have been tormented by the word and cannot simply get used to hearing it.
I personally do not get offended upon hearing these words but as an icon in such a large community, it seems irresponsible to advocate the usage of these words and even more ridiculous to say that people should just get used to hearing them because you don't mean any harm in saying them. If the goal isn't to harm or negatively affect viewers on a stream, then don't use words that are potentially hurtful.
Well if you think that using a word advocates the usage shouldn´t you censor your own post, because it is in a large community?
You also have to tell me where to draw the line on what I can use and what I can´t use because I don´t know the line. I made a list and added your four words, but I am pretty sure those aren´t all? There seem to be many potentially hurtful words, do you have a list on how you handle the matter?
|
On May 30 2011 15:31 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 08:39 baeracaed wrote:
I will never understand this argument: "Where do you draw the line? How do I know what I can and can't say?".
It's called socialization and education. If you don't get out much, use google. It's not that hard to get a feel for what offends people. The arguments for/against restraint should stay focused on what the restraint accomplishes. Thats the problem of todays societies with their abundance of mobile phones, skype, emails ... you dont LEARN face to face communication anymore as a child and thus dont learn to have good social skills. Consequently people dont know where to draw a line because they dont realize it exists (and will always exist) and hurting people via "faceless insults" on forums is just too easy and leaves about zero chance for reprisals (except here on TL where you could get a ban). Just some alternatives for "shut the fuck up":- shut up (you can raise this to "different levels of annoyance" by repeating it and ending in an all uppercase SHUT UP in a written post / stream chat channel)
- get lost
- shut the hell up
- Shut it up, quick! Before it sucks us into the void that it is! (yes, you can be witty instead of aggressive too!)
- (just) be quiet!
- SIIIIIIIILEEEEENNNNCE!!!! (this works best spoken of course)
- talk to the hand
I mean the english language is soooo rich in its words that there is no need to be vulgar and to use swear words. The problem lies in the laziness of its users and their lack of creativity with words. To learn to be creative with words you need to understand that you need to spend time on them and THINK BEFORE SPEAKING (writing when on forums). Sadly due to the dependance on instant communication most people dont bother learning those skills. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shut the fuck up Just start at that part in the urban dictionary and look for similar phrases on the left. You might be surprised how creative people can be without using the word FUCK.
The content of your examples is identical to "shut the fuck up" which just shows that it's just yet another way to express yourself.
Don't you see the idiocy in all of this? How does using fuck make everything you say offensive? Destiny also mentioned you could not use cussing and still be offensive; See: every single post in this thread where someone tries to project that anyone who agrees with Destiny isn't educated.
|
On May 30 2011 15:24 Homosax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 15:15 SlipperySnake wrote:
It seems like every argument if favor of Destiny just has no education at all on the difference between racial slurs and swearing. These slurs add nothing to any dialog and are completely unnecessary when it comes to expressing your anger. There is no situation in which I think there is no other expression that gets across the point these words get across. It is just to be inflamatory and meant to be offensive. It isn't conversational language that you would use in any other way unless you were meaning to insult or put someone down.
In summary those who trivialize words that have been used to put down and justify violence against others without concern for what they actually mean are naive. These words have definitions that aren't up for interpretation of context. Destiny needs to stop trying to be so transparent and non-hypocritical. He needs to own up when he is wrong and stop pretending that he has his own special contexts when these words are alright. Really?
Yeah now bold the rest of the sentence. Here is a quick update, words have meanings. These meaning can change with context but mean usually very similar things or often only have certain contexts in which they are applicable. Instead of trying to define a new context in which it is alright to use offensive words, it is better to except that those words probably shouldn't be used because of their use in the past. People who heard this argument just seem to have not context on what a lot of the racial slurs have done to people.
Some guy literally posted with just the definition of the n-word, I think it is pretty obvious how clueless people are. I am not saying Destiny is a racist but rather I am just saying that he should think more about using words that have been used to justify terrible things in history. To be flippant about it and blame those offended for getting offended seems a callous way of dealing with a very divisive issue.
|
On May 30 2011 15:17 kittensrcute wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 14:59 ArgosDelta wrote:On May 30 2011 14:54 kittensrcute wrote:
It honestly seems ridiculous that people can support the usage of words like "faggot", "nigger", "gay", and "rape". To ask people to learn to accept the usage of these words is absurd, even if the person saying these things doesn't mean harm by them.
You can't ask people to just get used to hearing them as many people (myself not included) are offended due to personal experiences. It is never acceptable to say something like "wow, I owned that faggot" on a stream that attracts thousands of daily viewers because there might be a viewer or viewers out there who have been tormented by the word and cannot simply get used to hearing it.
I personally do not get offended upon hearing these words but as an icon in such a large community, it seems irresponsible to advocate the usage of these words and even more ridiculous to say that people should just get used to hearing them because you don't mean any harm in saying them. If the goal isn't to harm or negatively affect viewers on a stream, then don't use words that are potentially hurtful. This point is irrelevant in a game about mass murder, genocide, xenophobia, torture, cross-species breeding, and terrorism. Oh, okay. I guess it's okay to use words like that when you're just talking about a video game since nobody who is watching will be able to relate nor will they be offended by the use of the words. Great point, sir.
If I came into your home after you said "jesus christ" to yell at you and try to change how you talk would you feel it's appropriate? No? Then stay off of destiny's stream.
|
Wow watching the VOD of today's episode.. "Shit just got real" seems like a good way to sum that one up.
Wow. Incontrol and Destiny are having a pretty big back and forth here.
I've never known someone that has been raped so i really never thought of it that way. Words just have different meanings to people. And words only have the meaning that people associate to them.
I personally used "rape" a lot and never think about sex saying it. Its just another form of "owning" a person which a woman thats been raped would find offensive i suppose. But its kind of a dumb argument to have, it won't ever change especially on the internet.
|
People have different views on different matters I swear everyone gets their feelings hurt so easily now it's ridiculous if someone does something u don't like just ignore them. This is how the RL works kids when my boss uses an offensive word such as I don't raise hell. It's like my dad taught me when I was younger just because I work with people that curse docent mean I have to agree or condemn them. We are all mostly educated individuals and are raised in different cultures and have different opinions.
For instance I live in the south and the N word is still widely used not as much in a raciest context but more of "can't wait to hang out with my nigs" is something my friend says all the time I do not say it but it's of a different context and I'm not going to jump on him for how he interprets the use of a word. My 2 cents, also I hope we can talk about SC on next weeks show....plz!
Wrote from iPod sorry for how it was written may seem jumpy
|
On May 30 2011 15:36 ArgosDelta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 15:17 kittensrcute wrote:On May 30 2011 14:59 ArgosDelta wrote:On May 30 2011 14:54 kittensrcute wrote:
It honestly seems ridiculous that people can support the usage of words like "faggot", "nigger", "gay", and "rape". To ask people to learn to accept the usage of these words is absurd, even if the person saying these things doesn't mean harm by them.
You can't ask people to just get used to hearing them as many people (myself not included) are offended due to personal experiences. It is never acceptable to say something like "wow, I owned that faggot" on a stream that attracts thousands of daily viewers because there might be a viewer or viewers out there who have been tormented by the word and cannot simply get used to hearing it.
I personally do not get offended upon hearing these words but as an icon in such a large community, it seems irresponsible to advocate the usage of these words and even more ridiculous to say that people should just get used to hearing them because you don't mean any harm in saying them. If the goal isn't to harm or negatively affect viewers on a stream, then don't use words that are potentially hurtful. This point is irrelevant in a game about mass murder, genocide, xenophobia, torture, cross-species breeding, and terrorism. Oh, okay. I guess it's okay to use words like that when you're just talking about a video game since nobody who is watching will be able to relate nor will they be offended by the use of the words. Great point, sir. If I came into your home after you said "jesus christ" to yell at you and try to change how you talk would you feel it's appropriate? No? Then stay off of destiny's stream.
How is that a relevant point? And I do stay off of his stream, though, not because of his language.
I can understand why he feels he should be able to speak freely on his stream but his supporting point was that people shouldn't be offended by certain words because he didn't mean them to be offensive. The reason people take offensive isn't because there is intent behind Destiny's words, but because of past experiences or events.
I understand Destiny's argument for free speech on his stream, I don't necessarily agree with it since he's representing his team and the Starcraft2 community, though I do understand his reasoning. However, he disagreed with iNcontroL's argument of improving one's image and instead said that people should learn to accept these words, which I do not understand as he's asking people to just accept his language because there isn't meaning behind it, even though the reason some viewers find his demeanor inappropriate is because of events that happened in their lives, not Destiny's. I guess they can just choose to not watch the stream, but understand that there are many viewers that look up to Destiny because of his game play and entertaining character, and these viewers might be deterred from the stream because they are offended by his language.
|
On May 30 2011 15:34 Andorra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 14:54 kittensrcute wrote:
It honestly seems ridiculous that people can support the usage of words like "faggot", "nigger", "gay", and "rape". To ask people to learn to accept the usage of these words is absurd, even if the person saying these things doesn't mean harm by them.
You can't ask people to just get used to hearing them as many people (myself not included) are offended due to personal experiences. It is never acceptable to say something like "wow, I owned that faggot" on a stream that attracts thousands of daily viewers because there might be a viewer or viewers out there who have been tormented by the word and cannot simply get used to hearing it.
I personally do not get offended upon hearing these words but as an icon in such a large community, it seems irresponsible to advocate the usage of these words and even more ridiculous to say that people should just get used to hearing them because you don't mean any harm in saying them. If the goal isn't to harm or negatively affect viewers on a stream, then don't use words that are potentially hurtful. Well if you think that using a word advocates the usage shouldn´t you censor your own post, because it is in a large community? You also have to tell me where to draw the line on what I can use and what I can´t use because I don´t know the line. I made a list and added your four words, but I am pretty sure those aren´t all? There seem to be many potentially hurtful words, do you have a list on how you handle the matter?
Maybe I shouldn't have posted the specific examples of the words used on the air today. I apologize, I was a little not sober and couldn't think of another way to make my point.
The second set of questions honestly just seems like a poor troll attempt since you're obviously not reading into the point I tried to make. I feel that if you're representing a team and a large community that you shouldn't use any words that could potentially hurt another individual, ie, any words that deal with race, homosexuality, and other words that generally have a negative connotation.
Edit: Sorry for the double post, I'm literally falling asleep and didn't feel like combining the quotes. Apologies.
|
Live and let live, or not letting people outside of your circle affect you/how you feel are things outside of peoples control according to you guys.
|
On May 30 2011 15:24 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 14:24 Homosax wrote:
Now, I saw some two-faced person in this thread accuse Destiny of putting a black person on his show just to "prove a point" or something. You sir, are racist. Destiny actually has a black friend, who has been on his show regularly. For you to assume that he simply put some black guy on his stream just to prove something, you're without a doubt more racist than he is. They've been friends for fucking ages. You disgust me.
Actually it's not that far-fetched to consider it convenient that Debo came on during that discussion, considering the fact that during WoC Destiny rattled off the names of several black gamers (including Debo) who agreed with him, as evidence for his argument. This occurred when a black gamer called into the show.
He's actually probably not talking about debo but camalleri who's been on destiny's stream for ages.
|
if this argument/thread changed anything for me it is that i'm going to make more of an effort to say rape and gay to offend the stupid fucking idiots who actually can't handle hearing words
|
Osaka27172 Posts
On May 30 2011 16:39 rycho wrote:
if this argument/thread changed anything for me it is that i'm going to make more of an effort to say rape and gay to offend the stupid fucking idiots who actually can't handle hearing words
You sound like a quality guy.
|
I must be one of the few people who enjoys this show for what it is, and doesn't try to take everything to heart.
|
On May 30 2011 16:39 rycho wrote:
if this argument/thread changed anything for me it is that i'm going to make more of an effort to say rape and gay to offend the stupid fucking idiots who actually can't handle hearing words
Might make it hard to keep your job at McDonald's - I'd imagine that they have a fairly stiff policy on that sort of language =(
That said, nobody really cares what you say, because you're a nobody. You can be stupid and ignorant all you like - nobody is listening to you. But when you affiliate yourself with an organization like ROOT, when a website features your stream prominently on their front page, and when you're invited by various organizations to compete in tournaments that they host, they take partial ownership of the things you say. That's why your prime spot working the Fry-o-later might be in jeopardy if you ramp up the hateful language, and that's why Destiny's 'argument' today is wrong on two levels - it's wrong in the factual/logical sense, and it's wrong in the realistic/practical sense.
|
On May 30 2011 15:37 Engore wrote:
Wow watching the VOD of today's episode.. "Shit just got real" seems like a good way to sum that one up.
Wow. Incontrol and Destiny are having a pretty big back and forth here.
I've never known someone that has been raped so i really never thought of it that way. Words just have different meanings to people. And words only have the meaning that people associate to them.
I personally used "rape" a lot and never think about sex saying it. Its just another form of "owning" a person which a woman thats been raped would find offensive i suppose. But its kind of a dumb argument to have, it won't ever change especially on the internet.
where can I watch the vod? I have been looking on the onemoregame.tv site and the blip site for onemore game and the twitter for links to it but I can't seem to find it. 
|
On May 30 2011 16:50 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 15:37 Engore wrote:
Wow watching the VOD of today's episode.. "Shit just got real" seems like a good way to sum that one up.
Wow. Incontrol and Destiny are having a pretty big back and forth here.
I've never known someone that has been raped so i really never thought of it that way. Words just have different meanings to people. And words only have the meaning that people associate to them.
I personally used "rape" a lot and never think about sex saying it. Its just another form of "owning" a person which a woman thats been raped would find offensive i suppose. But its kind of a dumb argument to have, it won't ever change especially on the internet. where can I watch the vod? I have been looking on the onemoregame.tv site and the blip site for onemore game and the twitter for links to it but I can't seem to find it.
http://www.justin.tv/onemoregametv/b/286936603
|
On May 30 2011 16:47 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 16:39 rycho wrote:
if this argument/thread changed anything for me it is that i'm going to make more of an effort to say rape and gay to offend the stupid fucking idiots who actually can't handle hearing words Might make it hard to keep your job at McDonald's - I'd imagine that they have a fairly stiff policy on that sort of language =( That said, nobody really cares what you say, because you're a nobody. You can be stupid and ignorant all you like - nobody is listening to you. But when you affiliate yourself with an organization like ROOT, when a website features your stream prominently on their front page, and when you're invited by various organizations to compete in tournaments that they host, they take partial ownership of the things you say. That's why your prime spot working the Fry-o-later might be in jeopardy if you ramp up the hateful language, and that's why Destiny's 'argument' today is wrong on two levels - it's wrong in the factual/logical sense, and it's wrong in the realistic/practical sense.
woah sick insult man, its almost as nonsensical as letting yourself actually give a shit what words anyone else uses.
i really feel bad for people who actually care enough to be offended at what some guy says on a video game stream. i imagine these people walking along having a nice day and then someone says "fag" and they suddenly burst into tears because they think that particular syllable is morally objectionable. apparently you think that not giving a shit what kind of language people use makes me "ignorant", but your opinion is just flat-out wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
