EPTReally loved the Destiny vs Incontrol debate.
Hope to hear more discussions like this in the near future. I think Destiny has a lot of value for these kind of sc2 related shows.
Great to see these verbal heavyweights clash.
[Show] Weapon of Choice - 7:00 PM EDT - Page 62
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Demosthen3s
Netherlands73 Posts
Really loved the Destiny vs Incontrol debate. Hope to hear more discussions like this in the near future. I think Destiny has a lot of value for these kind of sc2 related shows. Great to see these verbal heavyweights clash. | ||
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Incursus
United States415 Posts
I am going to start by outlining what I believe was communicated from both parties in the primary debate on the show. Since starting with Steven's viewpoint will allow me to elaborate in greater detail what I believe Geoff was saying, I will start with what I believe is his viewpoint. From the beginning of the show I got the feeling that both he and djWHEAT agree that content should be based on audience and viewership. IE if saying "fuck" would offend old grannies and you're producing a knitting show, odds are having Howard Stern and Steven hosting a show about knitting aimed at Grandma would be a bad idea. On that same token, if you're for instance producing an action movie that has all kinds of blood and gore then having the f-bomb flying left and right isn't going to discourage your target audience. Hell, any movie with adult subject matter is not necessarily limited by language, we'll take the movie, "The King's Speech" as an example. It's about a fairly complex and serious subject matter of English royalty during the Second World War, it follows the man who would eventually become King and how he had a severe speech impediment. There is a brief moment in the film filled with profanity like you've never seen it (considering how it's presented you probably haven't seen Colin Firth shouting "Fuck" in so many variations, so I win there). However, this does not distract from the target audience which is adults, adults with some knowledge of history. I know that Steven and Wheat both agree on tailoring your content to the audience, I also know that Geoff agrees with that idea as well. That's just smart business, people need to consider that Steven is popular because of his personality, to be honest if I wanted to learn something about Zerg I would watch IdrA or Sen, but because Steven entertains me so, I watch him over those two most of the time. He's good at SC and I can confidently say he is substantially better than me, but his play is not taking him to Code S anytime this year (I would love him to achieve something like that because it would be awesome but I digress). The core theme in what I saw from Steven though, was that he wanted his audience to mature, he's right on the concept of people have to choose to be offended. The truth is, when you hear someone say something offensive to you, you have to choose to be offended, you can let it go and not let it get to you. We all know that if in life we all took everything rude that had been said to us and sat on it and got really offended by it, we'd most likely all have committed mass murder of some form or another. It's true, I mean if you're a homosexual and someone decides to be a small man and call you a "faggot" you have total control of that situation right there. Why let that guy win? Why take offense to that? The best part about Steven is, you know that he does intend the word to carry that particular meaning. You know that when Steven calls Deezer or Combat-Ex a "faggot" he's not even remarking about their sexual orientation at all, he's using that word for a totally different purpose. And you as the viewer know that, you then must choose to be offended and honestly personal maturity plays a large role in that. So far as I can tell Steven was calling for the viewing audience to simply be more mature, instead of whining and complaining about something that you dislike in a streamer he was asking to put that aside or move on. I will be breaking this analysis down in to parts. Now moving on to Geoff's viewpoint as far as that is concerned. When Geoff called in he was particularly focused on the word rape, he did to an extent (quite the extent) discuss racial slurs. Geoff's viewpoint from what I was able to observe is the following. He does not contest the idea of Steven that people who have problems with his language should just move on to other streams. And he did not contest that perceived foul language isn't a big deal. The issues that Geoff had strong opinions on were words that carried connotation other than merely being obscene. And by obscene I mean describing something that is crude. Geoff was taking exception to the fact that Steven was using the N-Word (a word I myself am not particularly comfortable saying) because the word itself represented something greater than mere vulgarity. It represents the put down of an entire race. And on the note of the word Rape, Geoff was stating the following (to me at least) that saying something like that would do more than offend someone, Geoff is not referring to offense here, he is talking about actually hurting someone, making light of a horrid experience. He finds that objectionable, and when I think about it from that perspective I do understand his viewpoint. Something I would like to point out about Geoff's overall argument with Steven though, when he spoke about the racial slurs and when he spoke about Rape, he did indeed lump them together at several points, same goes for the word "faggot". The thing I objected to there was the fact that the issue of using the word Rape and using the aforementioned homosexual slur are two totally different things. "Faggot, Queer, Gay...etc" as well as racial slurs can all be grouped into the same category as foul language, the viewer ultimately decides to be offended by that. It doesn't carry the powerful emotional weight that the word rape could potentially have. Racial slurs and "rape" have to be categorized differently because they touch on different issues, although the argument they were in fact touching on both issues so perhaps Geoff's throwing that in there makes quite a bit more sense. The word "rape" has more power than the other words in the respect that it could deal actual emotional damage to the person in question. Now that we have that summation of what I believe they both attempted to communicate, it's my turn. We now delve into the evolution of language, one of the words that we previously discussed is actually key in this following bit of what I think. The N-Word, yes, the very one that Geoff and Steven argued over, notice how African-American people often use the word when addressing each other? Often in a positive manner? Hell, in my old neighborhood, I was one of very few white guys hanging around and I was mostly surrounded by a bunch of Black Guys. They encouraged me to call them "nigga" as it wasn't a foul word amongst friends. Why was this? Because the context had changed, they were mature and knew that when they addressed each other, no one meant to offend, the racial context of the word itself wasn't there anymore. I think that in a way, someone like Steven using it is an identical situation to what I just described. In a different way it's more powerful to, think about it, he's basically trivialized a word that used to condemn and entire race, what does it say about our society when we can move so far past something that heinous and render it meaningless? That we can overcome a word that means so much and make it small and pointless? Does it not take power away from it as a harmful word? Does it not make it seem weaker? And that is an example of how words change, the N-Word has effectively been made trivial, yes of course racism still exists, but to be honest we're never going to reach that Star Trek level of racial equality and happiness that many see as possible, there is the odd racist out there and yes it is entirely probably that the N-Word may make an appearance when they insult someone. By and large though, the word has lost its meaning. A word changed profoundly, now the next example does not mirror the above very much at all, but the concept of the evolution and development language applies. In the gaming community, "rape" has a COMPLETELY different definition than in the outside world. The word itself actually means something else, when Steven says "I raped that marine" he is saying that he actually "pwnt" that marine or "owned" or "stomped" the word rape doesn't have a sexual connotation in this situation, it has been transformed much in the way that other words have multiple meanings, "rape" has actually developed a different meaning in this situation. Now the idea of this word inflicting damage to a rape victim that may be listening to the stream is still prevalent and I doubt the gaming definition is going to change the outcome of that situation. So Geoff's points are still valid in this situation, doing what it takes to help someone have a better day, even if your sacrifice only benefits one person for an hour it seems like it could be worth it. Because the woman who got raped is not some douche who got offended over something stupid. This is a person who is hurt by the remark. It seems like a big deal to completely adapt your vocabulary yeah, but it could be worth it. Overall, I feel that the points made by both people are extremely valid, and often they may go hand in hand. "Rape" is a special case amongst words, and the rest can be dealt with easily by taking a look at what I believe Steven was attempting to communicate, people who are mad that Steven said "fag" on stream really do need to get over it. A woman who got raped and saw Steven make a rape joke and started bawling need understanding and compassion. The reason that neither one of them is totally right or totally wrong is that they were fighting in a gray area, an issue will likely be with us for a long time and is not likely to see resolution at any time. Really what this all comes down to is what can you live with as a person and what can you stand as a viewer? Peace out, Incursus | ||
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wzzit
United States201 Posts
On May 30 2011 16:57 rycho wrote: woah sick insult man, its almost as nonsensical as letting yourself actually give a shit what words anyone else uses. i really feel bad for people who actually care enough to be offended at what some guy says on a video game stream. i imagine these people walking along having a nice day and then someone says "fag" and they suddenly burst into tears because they think that particular syllable is morally objectionable. apparently you think that not giving a shit what kind of language people use makes me "ignorant", but your opinion is just flat-out wrong. Good luck getting anywhere in life with that attitude. | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:10 wzzit wrote: Good luck getting anywhere in life with that attitude. what attitude exactly? not taking offense to things people (complete strangers, might i add) say? please, name a single situation in which this could hurt me in any meaningful way. i think what bothers me most is the sense of entitlement these people have to live their lives with some arbitrary list of words they've somehow decided on and if anyone says something on their list, they're a bad person. its not everyone else's job to please you with their language; thats the attitude with which i would think "getting anywhere in life" would be hard. | ||
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II Shard II
United States5 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:09 Incursus wrote: I can start by saying that I felt on Weapon of Choice that both Geoff and Steven expressed themselves pretty well. I know that the debate did have some emotional charge involved but I feel overall that both represented their viewpoints pretty well. After listening to the discussion over casting language and language in broadcasted in StarCraft via streaming, I've developed some thoughts of my own on the subject. I am going to start by outlining what I believe was communicated from both parties in the primary debate on the show. Since starting with Steven's viewpoint will allow me to elaborate in greater detail what I believe Geoff was saying, I will start with what I believe is his viewpoint. From the beginning of the show I got the feeling that both he and djWHEAT agree that content should be based on audience and viewership. IE if saying "fuck" would offend old grannies and you're producing a knitting show, odds are having Howard Stern and Steven hosting a show about knitting aimed at Grandma would be a bad idea. On that same token, if you're for instance producing an action movie that has all kinds of blood and gore then having the f-bomb flying left and right isn't going to discourage your target audience. Hell, any movie with adult subject matter is not necessarily limited by language, we'll take the movie, "The King's Speech" as an example. It's about a fairly complex and serious subject matter of English royalty during the Second World War, it follows the man who would eventually become King and how he had a severe speech impediment. There is a brief moment in the film filled with profanity like you've never seen it (considering how it's presented you probably haven't seen Colin Firth shouting "Fuck" in so many variations, so I win there). However, this does not distract from the target audience which is adults, adults with some knowledge of history. I know that Steven and Wheat both agree on tailoring your content to the audience, I also know that Geoff agrees with that idea as well. That's just smart business, people need to consider that Steven is popular because of his personality, to be honest if I wanted to learn something about Zerg I would watch IdrA or Sen, but because Steven entertains me so, I watch him over those two most of the time. He's good at SC and I can confidently say he is substantially better than me, but his play is not taking him to Code S anytime this year (I would love him to achieve something like that because it would be awesome but I digress). The core theme in what I saw from Steven though, was that he wanted his audience to mature, he's right on the concept of people have to choose to be offended. The truth is, when you hear someone say something offensive to you, you have to choose to be offended, you can let it go and not let it get to you. We all know that if in life we all took everything rude that had been said to us and sat on it and got really offended by it, we'd most likely all have committed mass murder of some form or another. It's true, I mean if you're a homosexual and someone decides to be a small man and call you a "faggot" you have total control of that situation right there. Why let that guy win? Why take offense to that? The best part about Steven is, you know that he does intend the word to carry that particular meaning. You know that when Steven calls Deezer or Combat-Ex a "faggot" he's not even remarking about their sexual orientation at all, he's using that word for a totally different purpose. And you as the viewer know that, you then must choose to be offended and honestly personal maturity plays a large role in that. So far as I can tell Steven was calling for the viewing audience to simply be more mature, instead of whining and complaining about something that you dislike in a streamer he was asking to put that aside or move on. I will be breaking this analysis down in to parts. Now moving on to Geoff's viewpoint as far as that is concerned. When Geoff called in he was particularly focused on the word rape, he did to an extent (quite the extent) discuss racial slurs. Geoff's viewpoint from what I was able to observe is the following. He does not contest the idea of Steven that people who have problems with his language should just move on to other streams. And he did not contest that perceived foul language isn't a big deal. The issues that Geoff had strong opinions on were words that carried connotation other than merely being obscene. And by obscene I mean describing something that is crude. Geoff was taking exception to the fact that Steven was using the N-Word (a word I myself am not particularly comfortable saying) because the word itself represented something greater than mere vulgarity. It represents the put down of an entire race. And on the note of the word Rape, Geoff was stating the following (to me at least) that saying something like that would do more than offend someone, Geoff is not referring to offense here, he is talking about actually hurting someone, making light of a horrid experience. He finds that objectionable, and when I think about it from that perspective I do understand his viewpoint. Something I would like to point out about Geoff's overall argument with Steven though, when he spoke about the racial slurs and when he spoke about Rape, he did indeed lump them together at several points, same goes for the word "faggot". The thing I objected to there was the fact that the issue of using the word Rape and using the aforementioned homosexual slur are two totally different things. "Faggot, Queer, Gay...etc" as well as racial slurs can all be grouped into the same category as foul language, the viewer ultimately decides to be offended by that. It doesn't carry the powerful emotional weight that the word rape could potentially have. Racial slurs and "rape" have to be categorized differently because they touch on different issues, although the argument they were in fact touching on both issues so perhaps Geoff's throwing that in there makes quite a bit more sense. The word "rape" has more power than the other words in the respect that it could deal actual emotional damage to the person in question. Now that we have that summation of what I believe they both attempted to communicate, it's my turn. We now delve into the evolution of language, one of the words that we previously discussed is actually key in this following bit of what I think. The N-Word, yes, the very one that Geoff and Steven argued over, notice how African-American people often use the word when addressing each other? Often in a positive manner? Hell, in my old neighborhood, I was one of very few white guys hanging around and I was mostly surrounded by a bunch of Black Guys. They encouraged me to call them "nigga" as it wasn't a foul word amongst friends. Why was this? Because the context had changed, they were mature and knew that when they addressed each other, no one meant to offend, the racial context of the word itself wasn't there anymore. I think that in a way, someone like Steven using it is an identical situation to what I just described. In a different way it's more powerful to, think about it, he's basically trivialized a word that used to condemn and entire race, what does it say about our society when we can move so far past something that heinous and render it meaningless? That we can overcome a word that means so much and make it small and pointless? Does it not take power away from it as a harmful word? Does it not make it seem weaker? And that is an example of how words change, the N-Word has effectively been made trivial, yes of course racism still exists, but to be honest we're never going to reach that Star Trek level of racial equality and happiness that many see as possible, there is the odd racist out there and yes it is entirely probably that the N-Word may make an appearance when they insult someone. By and large though, the word has lost its meaning. A word changed profoundly, now the next example does not mirror the above very much at all, but the concept of the evolution and development language applies. In the gaming community, "rape" has a COMPLETELY different definition than in the outside world. The word itself actually means something else, when Steven says "I raped that marine" he is saying that he actually "pwnt" that marine or "owned" or "stomped" the word rape doesn't have a sexual connotation in this situation, it has been transformed much in the way that other words have multiple meanings, "rape" has actually developed a different meaning in this situation. Now the idea of this word inflicting damage to a rape victim that may be listening to the stream is still prevalent and I doubt the gaming definition is going to change the outcome of that situation. So Geoff's points are still valid in this situation, doing what it takes to help someone have a better day, even if your sacrifice only benefits one person for an hour it seems like it could be worth it. Because the woman who got raped is not some douche who got offended over something stupid. This is a person who is hurt by the remark. It seems like a big deal to completely adapt your vocabulary yeah, but it could be worth it. Overall, I feel that the points made by both people are extremely valid, and often they may go hand in hand. "Rape" is a special case amongst words, and the rest can be dealt with easily by taking a look at what I believe Steven was attempting to communicate, people who are mad that Steven said "fag" on stream really do need to get over it. A woman who got raped and saw Steven make a rape joke and started bawling need understanding and compassion. The reason that neither one of them is totally right or totally wrong is that they were fighting in a gray area, an issue will likely be with us for a long time and is not likely to see resolution at any time. Really what this all comes down to is what can you live with as a person and what can you stand as a viewer? Peace out, Incursus Thank you for taking the time to write this out Incursus. Reading all these posts taking one side or another has really started to annoy and frustrate me when the matter seems so obvious in that it is a gray area. I was just getting set to write my own similar piece when I saw yours. Quoted entirely for others to read. | ||
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wzzit
United States201 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:14 rycho wrote: what attitude exactly? not taking offense to things people (complete strangers, might i add) say? please, name a single situation in which this could hurt me in any meaningful way. i think what bothers me most is the sense of entitlement these people have to live their lives with some arbitrary list of words they've somehow decided on and if anyone says something on their list, they're a bad person. its not everyone else's job to please you with their language; thats the attitude with which i would think "getting anywhere in life" would be hard. You're right. You don't have an obligation to cater to anybody else out there with your choice of words. Of course, by that token, nobody will ever care about anything you have to say. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27118 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:14 rycho wrote: what attitude exactly? not taking offense to things people (complete strangers, might i add) say? please, name a single situation in which this could hurt me in any meaningful way. You and your buddy are walking through the parking lot after class when he tells you a joke about a black, gay, crippled guy. You laugh, because you don't get offended by such nonsense. Unfortunately, your black, gay, crippled math teacher overhears the exchange. Frowning in disapproval, he takes note of you in his grade book. At the end of the term you sit down at your desk to take your final exam. Your heart rate is up at test time, but you are confident that your study time with the cute girl who tutors you will pay off. You flip over the paper to find questions that are far beyond the scope of the class. Worriedly you glance around the room and hear the noise of scratching pencils as your classmates scrunch their brows in concentration. You feel like something is wrong, but in the silence of the hall there is nothing you can say or do. The hour draws out slowly. You are slumped in your chair, 40 minutes removed from your last attempt at solving the most basic question. As the bell rings and the invigilator collects the test, you look through the window and out into a grey day. Outside, staring at you with hard eyes, is your math teacher. The results come in two months later. Denied. Denied. Denied. All the major universities you worked so hard to get into look at the single black mark and find a more suitable candidate. Raging against the injustice of the situation you turn to drugs. Cue the spiral. Soon enough you are on the street, your family has disowned you, and you are reduced to sucking dick for coke. With your best Bob Saget face, you approach a car that slows by your cardboard box. The door swings open, and you hurry forth, anxious for the salty release that will earn you another bag. Looking into the driver's eyes you see your black, gay, crippled math teacher. You know you should be angry, you know you should range. Instead you drop to your battered knees and earn your custom. | ||
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Homosax
20 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:25 Manifesto7 wrote: You and your buddy are walking through the parking lot after class when he tells you a joke about a black, gay, crippled guy. You laugh, because you don't get offended by such nonsense. Unfortunately, your black, gay, crippled math teacher overhears the exchange. Frowning in disapproval, he takes note of you in his grade book. At the end of the term you sit down at your desk to take your final exam. Your heart rate is up at test time, but you are confident that your study time with the cute girl who tutors you will pay off. You flip over the paper to find questions that are far beyond the scope of the class. Worriedly you glance around the room and hear the noise of scratching pencils as your classmates scrunch their brows in concentration. You feel like something is wrong, but in the silence of the hall there is nothing you can say or do. The hour draws out slowly. You are slumped in your chair, 40 minutes removed from your last attempt at solving the most basic question. As the bell rings and the invigilator collects the test, you look through the window and out into a grey day. Outside, staring at you with hard eyes, is your math teacher. The results come in two months later. Denied. Denied. Denied. All the major universities you worked so hard to get into look at the single black mark and find a more suitable candidate. Raging against the injustice of the situation you turn to drugs. Cue the spiral. Soon enough you are on the street, your family has disowned you, and you are reduced to sucking dick for coke. With your best Bob Saget face, you approach a car that slows by your cardboard box. The door swings open, and you hurry forth, anxious for the salty release that will earn you another bag. Looking into the drivers eyes you see your black, gay, crippled math teacher. You know you should be angry, you know you should range. Instead you drop to your battered knees and earn your custom. People are incapable of being impartial, rational human beings and generally act with spite. Is that the lesson you're trying to prove here? | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:20 wzzit wrote: You're right. You don't have an obligation to cater to anybody else out there with your choice of words. Of course, by that token, nobody will ever care about anything you have to say. you seem to be under the impression that because i personally am not offended by other people's conversations that this equates to me being unable to exert any sort of control over myself when it comes to what i say in front of people. am i going to walk up to my black boss and call him a nigger? of course not; i'm not a fucking idiot. am i going to be offended when i hear a starcraft player's vulgarity while playing on a video game stream? no, i couldn't possibly care less. it just seems like such a meaningless thing to take issue with. | ||
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wzzit
United States201 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:29 rycho wrote: you seem to be under the impression that because i personally am not offended by other people's conversations that this equates to me being unable to exert any sort of control over myself when it comes to what i say in front of people. am i going to walk up to my black boss and call him a nigger? of course not; i'm not a fucking idiot. am i going to be offended when i hear a starcraft player's vulgarity while playing on a video game stream? no, i couldn't possibly care less. it just seems like such a meaningless thing to take issue with. Well, considering that you wrote this earlier: On May 30 2011 16:39 rycho wrote: if this argument/thread changed anything for me it is that i'm going to make more of an effort to say rape and gay to offend the stupid fucking idiots who actually can't handle hearing words. I'll admit that, yes, I was under the impression that you'd spout cuss words at anybody who appears to take offense to offensive language. Anyway, assuming that you only do this to people you don't know, the points that previous posters have made still stand. You're not an important person in the community, so even if you spout a bunch of offensive garbage, you're not going to affect anybody simply because people will (correctly) recognize that you're just a troll. Destiny, on the other hand, is a pretty influential figure in the community, so some people actually do care what he thinks. | ||
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vdek
United States267 Posts
On May 30 2011 16:30 Bosscelot wrote: He's actually probably not talking about debo but camalleri who's been on destiny's stream for ages. Cammelleri isn't black. | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:35 wzzit wrote: Well, considering that you wrote this earlier: I'll admit that, yes, I was under the impression that you'd spout cuss words at anybody who appears to take offense to offensive language. Anyway, assuming that you only do this to people you don't know, the points that previous posters have made still stand. You're not an important person in the community, so even if you spout a bunch of offensive garbage, you're not going to affect anybody simply because people will (correctly) recognize that you're just a troll. Destiny, on the other hand, is a pretty influential figure in the community, so some people actually do care what he thinks. what i say isn't the issue here; i'm not the one continuously bringing that up. all my post said was that caring about vulgarity is super fucking retarded. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
We know you don't mean "my marine sexually assaulted that zergling". We know you don't mean "that player is homosexual". If you were actually describing sexual assault or homosexuality, using words that mean those things is actually appropriate, although it would behoove you to try to pick words without an added layer of hostility (like "queer" instead of "fag"). The offense people take is that you are using these words metaphorically. You say "rape" to mean "the epitome of domination". You say "fag" to mean "a worthless piece of shit". And you say "nigger" because you're going for shock value. Now, realize how women might be offended by you using an overwhelmingly common, violent, and scarring form of victimizing their gender as a codeword for the ultimate display of manly bravado. Realize how homosexuals might be offended by you using their sexual orientation as a metaphor for worthlessness as a human being. Realize how black people might be offended by you jokingly using a word which was used to reduce them from human beings to a different breed, a subspecies. And here's the really relevant part - it does not matter if you're too obtuse to realize the above connections. They exist whether you want them to or not. Destiny brought up murder and the like and asked where the line is drawn (false continuum fallacy, by the way - you don't need a clear demarcation line between two extremes for them to be substantially different). Murder is not a hate crime - it is not directed at a group of people, indiscriminately of everything except their membership in that group, their identity that they cannot change. If you're not getting what I'm saying, compare "I just murdered that asshole" to "I just lynched that fucker". | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
It should however not be cencored out completely and I am perfectly fine with these kinds of opinions to be expressed elsewhere and more specificly on streams. If a person is not comfortable with the uncencored language he can simply choose to not tune in to said streams. You cant avoid the community/mass media sites and tournaments if you want to be a part of the SC2 scene or simply just watch SC2 as an e-sport so I'm fine with the cencorship of "harmfull words" here, even if I find it a bit silly. I beleive Destiny was defending that this was him on his stream and not that he wanted to force his opinions upon everyone in every media. On a sidenote, in an intelectual battle of words, where it doesnt matter who is right or wrong but simply who can argue better, Destiny mobbed the floor with inControl. It wasnt even close and one of the reasons why I really like Destiny, even when I dont agree with him, he always backs up his opinions with argements and I can see where he is comming from. | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:25 Manifesto7 wrote: You and your buddy are walking through the parking lot after class when he tells you a joke about a black, gay, crippled guy. You laugh, because you don't get offended by such nonsense. Unfortunately, your black, gay, crippled math teacher overhears the exchange. Frowning in disapproval, he takes note of you in his grade book. At the end of the term you sit down at your desk to take your final exam. Your heart rate is up at test time, but you are confident that your study time with the cute girl who tutors you will pay off. You flip over the paper to find questions that are far beyond the scope of the class. Worriedly you glance around the room and hear the noise of scratching pencils as your classmates scrunch their brows in concentration. You feel like something is wrong, but in the silence of the hall there is nothing you can say or do. The hour draws out slowly. You are slumped in your chair, 40 minutes removed from your last attempt at solving the most basic question. As the bell rings and the invigilator collects the test, you look through the window and out into a grey day. Outside, staring at you with hard eyes, is your math teacher. The results come in two months later. Denied. Denied. Denied. All the major universities you worked so hard to get into look at the single black mark and find a more suitable candidate. Raging against the injustice of the situation you turn to drugs. Cue the spiral. Soon enough you are on the street, your family has disowned you, and you are reduced to sucking dick for coke. With your best Bob Saget face, you approach a car that slows by your cardboard box. The door swings open, and you hurry forth, anxious for the salty release that will earn you another bag. Looking into the driver's eyes you see your black, gay, crippled math teacher. You know you should be angry, you know you should range. Instead you drop to your battered knees and earn your custom. thats why people are racist the black, gay, crippled guy. just ruined his life just cause he said a joke thx | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On May 30 2011 19:15 Archvil3 wrote: On a sidenote, in an intelectual battle of words, where it doesnt matter who is right or wrong but simply who can argue better, Destiny mobbed the floor with inControl. It wasnt even close and one of the reasons why I really like Destiny, even when I dont agree with him, he always backs up his opinions with argements and I can see where he is comming from. Did we honestly listen to the same debate? Destiny didn't even respond to any actual points Incontrol made, he kept hammering away at "it's context" and when Incontrol explained that Destiny's context doesn't matter when there's a negative connotation for the listener embedded in that word. Destiny's response was that only the context of the speaker matters. Okay, that's a bit of a dumb position, but I guess it's internally valid. He never explained why the listener's context doesn't matter, other than calling himself a sincere person. The only thing he "won" was the contest of who could come out with the most self-absorbed, myopic, and least empathetic white guy position possible. thats why people are racist the black, gay, crippled guy. just ruined his life just cause he said a joke thx So because one black, gay, crippled guy did something bad in a hypothetical story, bigotry towards entire demographics is justified? | ||
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NeonGenesis
Norway260 Posts
So because one black, gay, crippled guy did something bad in a hypothetical story, bigotry towards entire demographics is justified? Not justified, and I don't think he would argue that, but that's how it starts. It's human nature to generalize and create stereotypes. It's our way of maintaining an illusion of control in our lives. And inc didn't make good arguments. He kept hammering the same line over and over again about catering to the 0.00001% of the population that is always on the lookout for a reason to become angry and refuses to accept any explanation than their own subjectively construed reality as absolute truth (It doesn't matter that you didn't mean it that way. In my dictionary that word is offensive and carries a set objective meaning), while Destiny argued against them. The only way inc rebuted Destiny (and Wheats) arguments were "I see what you did there", "(condescending laughter) I can't believe I'm hearing this" and "are you serious?!". | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
On May 30 2011 14:24 TomSlick wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=58904¤tpage=3#53 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=35452#10 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=34847¤tpage=5#91 http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=105987#5 wow man someone censor this guy! Who knew this guy was gonna grow up to join the language police  | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 30 2011 15:35 Homosax wrote: The content of your examples is identical to "shut the fuck up" which just shows that it's just yet another way to express yourself. Don't you see the idiocy in all of this? How does using fuck make everything you say offensive? Destiny also mentioned you could not use cussing and still be offensive; See: every single post in this thread where someone tries to project that anyone who agrees with Destiny isn't educated. Really? Some words are not meant for "public use" and if I have to explain to you why *fuck* is an offensive word you probably have gotten used to it already, but it doesnt mean your standards are the same for everyone. Its the same argument which Destiny brought up that Nigger isnt as offensive nowadays as it was 60 years ago, but there still are people who would go fusion rather easily. Just try going into a black community and ask someone for directions "I am looking for a Nigger called XYZ, can you tell me where he lives." You might get some less than friendly responses. As a german I am pretty offended by non-germans throwing stupid phrases used by the Nazis around without thinking about them and their implications and using them to describe todays germans. In germany we have the same "problem" with the word "geil" (which originally meant horny / lustful / ruttish). It is used for everything now and has taken on meanings like "cool" in the last few years. Its still a stupid word to use for that meaning and there are still people offended by its frequent useage and there are still other german words to use instead. What made this word so popular? Music and ads(*1) and the kids desire to look cool by offending their parents in their use of offensive words. The gist of it is that as a "public figure" you are exposing yourself to the public and are responsible for whatever you say. People might be offended by what you say and if you dont care about it that is disrespectful of your fellow citizens. Thanks also for agreeing with me that there are LOADS of other phrases to use instead of "shut the fuck up", which pretty much proves that Destiny is just using these words because he doesnt know better and is uncreative in his language. Thats the positive way of explaining it and the negative way of explaining it is to assume that he does it to create scandal, to be cool for the kids who love scandal (right up there with "sex sells") and to get an increased viewership. The argument of "where do you draw the line" is just an argument not to bother with checking yourself and to have no standards at all and to be allowed to talk as much bullshit as you want. That isnt how societies work and it certainly isnt freedom. It feels like Destiny is only about Destinys freedom to say whatever he wants. The one question which all the people who "dont give a damn" havent asked is: How does swearing and using offensive language improve their commentary and our society? I think iNcontrol tried to ask it, but it got talked over and was forgotten. (*1) One famous TV spot campaign has declared "geiz ist geil" (miserliness is horny) and it was popular for some time. Nowadays they have switched the spot to just say "geil ist geil" (horny is horny) ... which is about as stupid as you can get. They could have said red is red as well, but it wouldnt have been as controversial then. | ||
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IrrasO
United States408 Posts
On May 30 2011 17:25 Manifesto7 wrote: + Show Spoiler + You and your buddy are walking through the parking lot after class when he tells you a joke about a black, gay, crippled guy. You laugh, because you don't get offended by such nonsense. Unfortunately, your black, gay, crippled math teacher overhears the exchange. Frowning in disapproval, he takes note of you in his grade book. At the end of the term you sit down at your desk to take your final exam. Your heart rate is up at test time, but you are confident that your study time with the cute girl who tutors you will pay off. You flip over the paper to find questions that are far beyond the scope of the class. Worriedly you glance around the room and hear the noise of scratching pencils as your classmates scrunch their brows in concentration. You feel like something is wrong, but in the silence of the hall there is nothing you can say or do. The hour draws out slowly. You are slumped in your chair, 40 minutes removed from your last attempt at solving the most basic question. As the bell rings and the invigilator collects the test, you look through the window and out into a grey day. Outside, staring at you with hard eyes, is your math teacher. The results come in two months later. Denied. Denied. Denied. All the major universities you worked so hard to get into look at the single black mark and find a more suitable candidate. Raging against the injustice of the situation you turn to drugs. Cue the spiral. Soon enough you are on the street, your family has disowned you, and you are reduced to sucking dick for coke. With your best Bob Saget face, you approach a car that slows by your cardboard box. The door swings open, and you hurry forth, anxious for the salty release that will earn you another bag. Looking into the driver's eyes you see your black, gay, crippled math teacher. You know you should be angry, you know you should range. Instead you drop to your battered knees and earn your custom. this really isn't much of an argument against racism/sexism/discrimination as it is a violation of ethics by the math teacher. how ridiculously boring is the world going to be if everything that offends anyone can't be joked about anymore? especially in the setting of just two friends trying to make each other laugh and someone overhears them and takes offense to it. | ||
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