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[Show] Weapon of Choice - 7:00 PM EDT - Page 59

Forum Index > SC2 General
2146 CommentsPost a Reply
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Syben
Profile Joined October 2010
United States512 Posts
May 30 2011 03:46 GMT
#1161
Just listened to the episode and have truly mixed feelings about the whole situation. I think destiny had some good points on the subject early in the conversation but I think the point that he took it got a little out of hand later in the show. There are other ways of expressing your anger or feelings without using derogatory words that infer racism or bigotry. I think the defense he was putting into being able to use those words and his argument for them really falls short. Cussing is fine but you do not need to use a select few words that you KNOW offend people for the sake of you think you should be able to say them. Other alternatives get the point across even better in a lot of cases.
Definitely gonna switch to G, the only race I havent played yet. - TLO
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 30 2011 03:46 GMT
#1162
I have to say that Incontrol pretty much owned Destiny in their argument on WoC...Destiny kept falling back on the flimsiest of arguments in response to Incontrol's points. "I'm offended when black people today attach the same meaning to the word nigger that black people of 50 years ago did"..."If I lose 5 viewers from my stream because I used these words, I don't mind because I'm still making enough money to support myself"..."I don't have the right to tell a black person that he can't be offended when I say the word nigger, but I can disagree with him when he is offended." Incontrol just made the simple point that the words rape, nigger, and faggot shouldn't be used by players streaming to a large number of people. It doesn't seem to me like he's asking very much.
Falcor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada894 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 03:59:40
May 30 2011 03:57 GMT
#1163
On May 30 2011 10:00 Finrod1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 09:26 PanzerKing wrote:
Destiny absolutely humiliated himself today, in my opinion. I was absolutely appalled by so much of what he said that I have to vent that frustration publicly.

I've interviewed rape victims immediately after they've been assaulted. When you've seen that kind of pain, and you realize that it's going to emotionally impact them for the rest of their life, you can't listen to the kind of ridiculous, fatuous statements he was making today without getting incensed. "A lot of women who've been raped are able to make jokes about it?" Really? Are you fucking kidding me? Who are these women, because I've never met them. The ones I've met (at least, the ones that are old enough to be considered 'women' and not 'girls') aren't joking about it. They're grappling with the enormity of an experience that quite often precludes them from ever pursuing another successful relationship.

And you know what? Rape is a reality that all women deal with. It's a reality that can strike any of them at any time, whether they're a single mother or a teenage girl or a college student. So, no, it's not just something that affects only a tiny portion of women - it's a reality that's in the back of a woman's mind when she's walking down an empty street alone, or when she's being stared at on the subway by a creepy guy, late at night.

On the subject of race - I know a lawyer, a black lawyer, who went into criminal court one time in casual clothing, only to be told by a court officer "have a seat, your attorney will be with you in a moment." This guy has been a respected prosecutor for thirty years, in and out of that same court for most of his career and a court officer takes one look at his denim slacks and sneakers and automatically makes him for a criminal because of his skin color. He doesn't think "he's probably a paralegal", he thinks "he's a defendant."

I know another lawyer, a white lawyer, whom I was sitting next to in an upstate courtroom. He pointed at a paralegal who had walked into the courtroom and said, under his breath, "that's something you don't see often." I didn't know what he meant. He clarified "One of 'those people' wearing a suit."

THAT is the kind of racism that still exists today, Destiny. It's not the Jim Crow, lynch mob, cross-burning racism of the 1950's - it's the unconscious prejudice, it's institutional racism like higher interest rates on home loans for blacks, it's the long glances you get from a clerk when you're alone in the back of a convenience store late at night, it's the nervous looks people give you when you sit next to them at 2:00 am on the subway, it's the subtle and unthinking insinuation that you've only gotten where you have in life because of a white man's pity.

THAT is part of why people are hurt by the N-word. Do you know the other part? It's the idea that, no matter how far we've come from that time, no matter how far we've removed ourselves from that part of history, it's the idea that a single word like that can be used to define a person of color. It's the idea that it doesn't matter who or what you are - you can be called a 'nigger', and that word sums you up, defines the entirety of your existence, strips you of your individuality and makes you just a faceless member of an underclass. And that idea, whether you want to recognize it's existence or not, has NOT gone away in the last fifty years, and it might never go away - it's something everyone keeps in the back of their head because it's the kind of realization that can't be unthought.

But to be on-topic - if people are serious about making e-sports a successful venue, they need to step outside of themselves and realize that their audience is not just young heterosexual white males. Some people don't fall into that category, and some of those people take their racial, ethnic or religious background, or their sexual orientation, or their prior life experiences quite seriously. The inability to demonstrate even a modicum of respect for those people's feelings strikes me as so incredibly callous and arrogant that, quite frankly, I was appalled during today's show. Your hypothetical desire to 'freely express' yourself with vulgar and hurtful language matters more than respecting your audience and exercising a basic level of decency for their feelings? How much more self-important can a person be?

That said, I strongly respect Incontrol for admitting that he isn't perfect. Nobody is. The point is that you should try to accept your role as a representative of something larger than yourself, and you should try to comport yourself in a manner that respects other people's perspectives even if you can't bring yourself to respect them in reality. Even if someone doesn't always succeed, it matters most of all that they tried - that they placed the well-being of their organizational affiliations (i.e. e-sports or a team affiliation) and the emotional well-being of other people who are receiving said message, over their own base wants. If you can do that, then you'd start to build some credibility in my eyes, but today I saw a confident, responsible adult in Incontrol, and a petulant, crude boy in Destiny.


Thanks for that post! And thanks to tree.hugger for his arguments aswell as many other posters here. I really had the feeling in the sc2 community were too much people like destiny who live in their little bubble in which they make a theory which works for them but hast nothing to do with the reality.
So thanks to incontrol and all the other fellow intelligent tl user's for letting me still be comfortable in this community.
And destiny, i felt very insulted by what you said. You ever had a girlfriend which got raped? You ever experienced racial discrimination? I highly doubt it. So don't talk about something you know nothing about. I really think it's good that this discussion was held but i will never watch/here destiny again in any tournament or show.


My best friend(since the start of highschool, 23 now) got raped...and almost got rapped when we were dating a couple yrs ago...does that mean i think i know everything about the topic? no. Do i think someone who doesn't have a personal experience cant comment on a issue, no thats ludicrous.

But since many people seem to be misinformed. Does saying rape instantly trigger a flash back to rape victims. Sure it might, everyone is different but more of the triggers are usually to do with the incident(like a smell sound or visual of when it was happening).theres some who even being touched incocently will be enough to have a flashback.

The biggest hinderence to recovery for people who've been raped(guys can be raped too...) is actually when they avoid it and dont work through it. When its brough to the forefront they can work through it with their loved ones and hopefully move past it(some take longer then others(it can take yrs and yrs)).

My personal experience shes fine with the word and jokes about it(not about her actual experince but rape jokes like george carlines etc). She doesn't want a word to control her life. So I'll continue to use the word because i know the victims usually have more to worry about and work through then a word being used...
L.Seki
Profile Joined May 2011
United States9 Posts
May 30 2011 04:06 GMT
#1164
I think we should all just use common sense and remember that a word can have multiple meanings, as defined by a sufficiently larger group of people. "Rape" in the gaming community carries its own definition, much like "nigger" carries contrasting connotations within certain groups of people.

If people are offended, that is their choice, I suppose. Although, blind judgement on a word without context does make you look a bit ignorant, imo.
"How can you be Hungary between Turkey and Greece?" - Zorak
Atlas247
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada318 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 04:14:37
May 30 2011 04:11 GMT
#1165
I was pretty Disapointed in InControl, I can tell he has experience debating. It's obvious that he was using those skills to argue with Destiny instead of talking about what was really happening and the issue that they were talking. Pretty sad that people don't realize it and just see him "destroying" someone in an argument. I've seen him do it before with Tyler, just kind of not cool in my opinion.

Incontrol just laughs while Destiny tries to articulate himself. Since Destiny cant do it as well it just comes off as Geoff "winning" or something stupid
Windex Banana Lampshade
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 30 2011 04:12 GMT
#1166
On May 30 2011 13:06 L.Seki wrote:
I think we should all just use common sense and remember that a word can have multiple meanings, as defined by a sufficiently larger group of people. "Rape" in the gaming community carries its own definition, much like "nigger" carries contrasting connotations within certain groups of people.

If people are offended, that is their choice, I suppose. Although, blind judgement on a word without context does make you look a bit ignorant, imo.



Enlighten us on the meaning of the word "nigger" in teh gaming community. You seemed a bit vague when you said that it "carries contrasting connotations within certain groups of people."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 30 2011 04:13 GMT
#1167
On May 30 2011 13:11 Atlas247 wrote:
I was pretty Disapointed in InControl, I can tell he has experience debating. It's obvious that he was using those skills to argue with Destiny instead of talking about what was really happening and the issue that they were talking. Pretty sad that people don't realize it and just see him "destroying" someone in an argument. I've seen him do it before with Tyler, just kind of not cool in my opinion.



Incontrol wasn't talking about the issue? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I certainly don't remember him going off-topic.
Atlas247
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada318 Posts
May 30 2011 04:17 GMT
#1168
[B]

Incontrol wasn't talking about the issue? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I certainly don't remember him going off-topic.


Wasn't my point.
Windex Banana Lampshade
Laids
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom596 Posts
May 30 2011 04:22 GMT
#1169
Applying meaning to taboo words is pointless imo, in the UK we call cigarettes 'Fags', I'm not going to change that word because someone might get offended. Faggot's are also a food, I guess we should change to the word for that food also.

A far as children are concerned, if you're an adult and watching a stream where an offensive word is used even though you KNEW that streamer/caster had a habit of using offensive words then the onus is on you to not let your child see that. Use some common sense.

I recognize that America specifically has only recently, relatively, accepted Black's as equals and maybe that's why Americans tip-toe around the issue and actually try to separate white's and blacks MORE because they're so fucking worried about offending each other. Black's and White's in America will never co-exist in an equal social environment until people actually get over the social taboo's that seek to separate the two.

Personally I think of rape as a way of describing something being taken forcibly and the fact we can't use it wit hthat meaning is fucking absurd to me. Automatically linking negative connotations to words just sucks plain and simple and limits freedom of expression ot it's fullest.



425kid
Profile Joined March 2011
416 Posts
May 30 2011 04:28 GMT
#1170
Destiny crushed incontrol so hard it wasnt even funny. Incontrol realized he couldnt argue so he went with the age old tactic of just ignoring destiny's points. Apparently it worked on some people
Atlas247
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada318 Posts
May 30 2011 04:31 GMT
#1171
On May 30 2011 13:28 425kid wrote:
Destiny crushed incontrol so hard it wasnt even funny. Incontrol realized he couldnt argue so he went with the age old tactic of just ignoring destiny's points. Apparently it worked on some people


I try not to think of it as " People crushing other people in an argument". This isn't a high school debate where you get points on how well you articulate yourself. This is about real life stuff that changes how people think. Understand both sides and come to your own decision.
Windex Banana Lampshade
Phenny
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1435 Posts
May 30 2011 04:32 GMT
#1172
On May 30 2011 13:28 425kid wrote:
Destiny crushed incontrol so hard it wasnt even funny. Incontrol realized he couldnt argue so he went with the age old tactic of just ignoring destiny's points. Apparently it worked on some people


I don't think either crushed the other tbh, they both stated their positions and made it clear they were strongly supportive of their own particular view.
corpuscle
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States1967 Posts
May 30 2011 04:39 GMT
#1173
I understand that it's a discussion show and that's just kind of how the conversation went, but I really wish someone had pulled the conversation away from all the n-word bullshit. If I wanted to hear people discuss the appropriateness of the n-word for different races and in different settings, I'd listen to a Cornel West lecture, not WoC. I'm not trying to be all dramatic and say I'm gonna stop listening to the show, since obviously this is sort of a freak occurrence, but I did close the stream right around the time inc called in because it was clear the debate wasn't going to end, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who did that.

That's a really heavy discussion to be having on a show about gaming, and a lot of outright stupid stuff was said by multiple parties. I know people have their opinions and all, but really, the entire thing should've been avoided.
From the void I am born into wave and particle
Slakter
Profile Joined January 2010
Sweden1947 Posts
May 30 2011 04:45 GMT
#1174
On May 30 2011 13:28 425kid wrote:
Destiny crushed incontrol so hard it wasnt even funny. Incontrol realized he couldnt argue so he went with the age old tactic of just ignoring destiny's points. Apparently it worked on some people

Apparently using weird rhetorics where you dont make examples of your point and putting yourself on a pedistal because of your opinion is a totally cool tactic however?

Come on guys, we´re better than this. At least I hope we are. This is not the place to have this discussion.
Protoss, can't live with em', can't kill em'.
Miena
Profile Joined December 2010
United States24 Posts
May 30 2011 04:48 GMT
#1175
It is stupid that we are even arguing about this. Destiny has a platform where he can do what he wants, if people don't like what he says they don't have to listen to him. He even said that he probably wouldn't say something like nigger if he was casting a big tournament. Destiny has alot of people who follow him, but hes not even close to the numbers that the gsl or tsl pull in.
"o hai how am i?"
MrDudeMan
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada973 Posts
May 30 2011 04:48 GMT
#1176
I think the discussion was fine for the show since they were discussing caster language. I also support destinys view compared to incontrols. I think its a lot more important to judge words by the context rather then the dictionary meaning. This same discussion is huge in stand up comedy because people dont understand the fact that a rape joke is a joke and should not be taken as anything more. If you dont find it funny thats fine, but theres plenty of people who do.
nozh
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada93 Posts
May 30 2011 05:01 GMT
#1177
it would be pretty cool if someone would add a trigger warning to this thread, maybe in the op or one of those top of the page notes. thanks .
TomSlick
Profile Joined April 2010
United States36 Posts
May 30 2011 05:16 GMT
#1178
America land of whiney sensitive weak minded pussies

User was temp banned for this post.
CALL THE AMBERLAMPS
TomSlick
Profile Joined April 2010
United States36 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 05:31:24
May 30 2011 05:24 GMT
#1179
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=58904&currentpage=3#53

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=35452#10

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=34847&currentpage=5#91

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=105987#5

wow man someone censor this guy!
CALL THE AMBERLAMPS
Homosax
Profile Joined May 2011
20 Posts
May 30 2011 05:24 GMT
#1180
Second post from a lurker, since I feel the need to defend Destiny yet again.

First things first, Destiny rarely says nigger from what I've seen. He says faggot from time to time, but I'm pretty used to that. I just wanted to set the record straight on that. I have yet to see Destiny use the word Nigger.

Now, I saw some two-faced person in this thread accuse Destiny of putting a black person on his show just to "prove a point" or something. You sir, are racist. Destiny actually has a black friend, who has been on his show regularly. For you to assume that he simply put some black guy on his stream just to prove something, you're without a doubt more racist than he is. They've been friends for fucking ages. You disgust me.

I think Destiny touched on something great that not a single person defaming him right now even paid attention to. He said that he was a firm believer in capitalism, and that if his viewers stopped watching his stream due to profanity, he would look at himself and change accordingly. His words, not mine. He's not unwilling to change, but he is going to stand for what he believes in, and what he believes in is, harmless.

Since some person here put a laugh-worthy TL;DR post with a bunch of personal examples, I'll give some context too.

First of all, I'm homosexual. Flamboyantly so. I like musicals. You can make fun of me, I make fun of myself. I also have a family member who was sexually abused, and raped. While I feel strongly about the latter, I come from a gaming background and I'm fully aware of what rape means in a game context, and have no problem with it.

The thing about words is they change over time. Nigger is still going to have a history, but I think you should still be allowed to say it regardless. Whether or not you tune in to a person stream due to a persons language is your prerogative, and ultimately determines the fate of Destiny.

I'm honestly pretty ashamed to see the constant elitism in this forum. Incontrol didn't "destroy" Destiny, just because you agree with him, doesn't make his argument better. I thought they both did pretty good, but Incontrol lost me when he smugly laughed at Destiny as he gathered his thoughts. If you call that mature and respectful, well hey, guess what? I think you're a fucking moron. Sue me.

Ban me, I don't care. I don't want to be a part of a community that would do that. I actually believe in freedom of speech and I'm not willing to change the way I act for a small group of people.

On topic, I'm impressed with DJWheat, I never really paid him any mind, but seeing him being so open to Destiny really impressed me, him raising a kid older than Destiny's and all. Keep it up, Wheat, I'll definitely tune in to your show now.
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