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i think theres going to be words that people are offened by that other people arent. Alot of people are offened by using words like god or jesus "ìn vain". Imo people can say what ever they want its up to the people who are listening to decide if they want to support that person or not. Theres alot of controversial tv shows or comedians that alot of people are offened by. But those alot of people know to not tune into that specific program or comedian.(some of the moft famous comedians were radically controversial/innapropriate for their time but are loved now)
The argument that casts like mlg or w/e should curtail their language to everyone because people may be offended is a bad one. They should curtail their language because its financially smart to do so. But for streams if you draw the line because one group is offended your going to have to keep redrawing that line because another group is going to be offended by another word. why is one group being offended not ok, but another group have to suck it up? when they both believe they have a valid reason to take offense.
imo its a all or nothign stance, you cant say this word is bad to say but that words not
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On May 30 2011 07:39 Bergys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 07:32 SiguR wrote:
for once i absolutely agree with what incontrol was saying.
Words represent ideas. That is their purpose. The words in question have a very specific meaning. You don't get to just say they don't carry the meaning when you use them. Just use different words. Where do you draw the line though? Incontrol said something like 'just stop saying nigger and rape and you'll be fine'. A few minutes later Destiny asks Incontrol what he thinks of the word fag and gay. Incontrol then turns it into a joke by saying 'HELL, THATS 4 WORDS YOU CANNOT USE!' in true incontrol fashion. In 2 minutes he doubled the amount of words which are not okay to use. Is it fine to say that a hellion incinerated a marine? What if my father was trapped in a burning house and burned alive? Suicide? Words have the meaning you apply to them. Saying that certain words are offensive because they offend lots of people and then saying other words are fine because they offend a smaller amount of people is hypocritical. Incontrol is just being politically correct.
I think it's pretty clear that the line should be drawn at words that relate to victimization.
Everyone is concerned about trying to find a reason not to use the words. I suggest trying to find a valid reason for using the words in the first place. There isn't really a cost to not using them... How is this still being discussed?
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On May 30 2011 08:29 SiguR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 07:39 Bergys wrote:On May 30 2011 07:32 SiguR wrote:
for once i absolutely agree with what incontrol was saying.
Words represent ideas. That is their purpose. The words in question have a very specific meaning. You don't get to just say they don't carry the meaning when you use them. Just use different words. Where do you draw the line though? Incontrol said something like 'just stop saying nigger and rape and you'll be fine'. A few minutes later Destiny asks Incontrol what he thinks of the word fag and gay. Incontrol then turns it into a joke by saying 'HELL, THATS 4 WORDS YOU CANNOT USE!' in true incontrol fashion. In 2 minutes he doubled the amount of words which are not okay to use. Is it fine to say that a hellion incinerated a marine? What if my father was trapped in a burning house and burned alive? Suicide? Words have the meaning you apply to them. Saying that certain words are offensive because they offend lots of people and then saying other words are fine because they offend a smaller amount of people is hypocritical. Incontrol is just being politically correct. I think it's pretty clear that the line should be drawn at words that relate to victimization.
Do you find "Owned" acceptable, slavery is pretty victimizing after all.
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I just find it really strange how people get SO offended over someone using words in a light hearted way and jump in excitement over the thought of someone landing a nuke to murder an entire army
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I will never understand this argument: "Where do you draw the line? How do I know what I can and can't say?".
It's called socialization and education. If you don't get out much, use google. It's not that hard to get a feel for what offends people. The arguments for/against restraint should stay focused on what the restraint accomplishes.
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In a TV show known as HBO's Game of Thrones, that has millions of viewers a young seemingly underaged girl is raped by a large muscular man on screen and there were barely no objections about that from public. Sure the man was his husband but doesn't make it any less rape. The same in showtime's show The Borgias, character that was 14 years old (iirc) was married and then raped by her husband and thats all ok because its fiction. I would argue that these scenes are more harmful to rape victims than someones SC2 stream using rape as a synonym for domination or destruction. Both of these series are rated mature i guess, so same principal could be employed to streams that are rated mature. So if its content for people over 18 years old, the audience should be mature enough to see the context of the language used in the content they are viewing.
Please look at this discussion in context, as you should look at the context of the words used. By this I mean the mainstream media does display more harmfull language and content than any SC2 stream I have ever seen. I loved the show and thanks DJWheat for having balls to do a show like this.
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Neither of these two should be using the platform that they were given to talk about this subject in the context that they did. Both INc and Destiny are controversial, opinionated and very confident that they know best so come off looking stupid. To address the point that the more you travel the more you learn, sounds like they both need a round the world trip.
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On May 30 2011 08:41 CursedRich wrote:
Neither of these two should be using the platform that they were given to talk about this subject in the context that they did. Both INc and Destiny are controversial, opinionated and very confident that they know best so come off looking stupid. To address the point that the more you travel the more you learn, sounds like they both need a round the world trip.
The thread is already halfway down the road to being put on red-text lockdown, the last thing we need are people flinging around ad-hominem attacks to make the discussion look worse.
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On May 30 2011 08:39 baeracaed wrote:
I will never understand this argument: "Where do you draw the line? How do I know what I can and can't say?".
It's called socialization and education. If you don't get out much, use google. It's not that hard to get a feel for what offends people.
Everyone gets offened for alot of different reasons. Saying that the only people who dont know what offends people are dumb hermits doesnt make alot of sense to me. Try talking to a feminist the amount of words they get offened over because they feel its trying to hold them back as a sex is astonishing.
edit: dont really like generlizing all feminists in that way, but yeah
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On May 30 2011 08:45 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 08:39 baeracaed wrote:
I will never understand this argument: "Where do you draw the line? How do I know what I can and can't say?".
It's called socialization and education. If you don't get out much, use google. It's not that hard to get a feel for what offends people. Everyone gets offened for alot of different reasons. Saying that the only people who dont know what offends people are dumb hermits doesnt make alot of sense to me. Try talking to a feminist the amount of words they get offened over because they feel its trying to hold them back as a sex is astonishing. edit: dont really like generlizing all feminists in that way, but yeah
Like I said, it's not hard to know what offends a group of people or is socially acceptable in a general sense. The argument you should be making, (and sounds like you are, kudos) is that you don't think they should be offended in the first place.
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Destiny, you should stop arguing here. Not only you're arguing with peoples that won't be convinced, whatever you say, but the debate degenerated so much that now you're all arguing just for the sake of arguing.
I mean, it's not like you say nigger or rape non stop on your stream. In fact, I don't remember hearing those once (I don't watch everything tho)
So you're just arguing a theoretical point that you don't even defend in your everyday life. Which looks as bad as people who gets offended by the words rape or nigger only for the principle (most people in this thread)
So there's no real point.
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Yeah but what Incontrol wanted is to see players who stream behave and think about theyre audience. Yeah most people wont take offence if you say "faggot" but when u are a gaming idol to thousands out there, many kids, they will think its normal and not understand that it can actually hurt someone.
I understand Destinys points but i agree with Incontrol.
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I actually have read a lot of intelligent comments in this thread, and I'm not trolling. I disagree with many of them, but I actually think that this discussion is a lot more productive than I would've expected. I hope it's not closed -- not only because this is djWheat's thread, but also because this discussion isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
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On May 30 2011 08:54 baeracaed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 08:45 Falcor wrote:On May 30 2011 08:39 baeracaed wrote:
I will never understand this argument: "Where do you draw the line? How do I know what I can and can't say?".
It's called socialization and education. If you don't get out much, use google. It's not that hard to get a feel for what offends people. Everyone gets offened for alot of different reasons. Saying that the only people who dont know what offends people are dumb hermits doesnt make alot of sense to me. Try talking to a feminist the amount of words they get offened over because they feel its trying to hold them back as a sex is astonishing. edit: dont really like generlizing all feminists in that way, but yeah Like I said, it's not hard to know what offends a group of people or is socially acceptable in a general sense. The argument you should be making, (and sounds like you are, kudos) is that you don't think they should be offended in the first place.
That wasnt the argument i was making lol im more of the mindset of people who get offened by what i said, you dont have to listen to me. But that wasn't the point i was making.
But to the point you just made, i think its not hard to know what offends a group of people...but the line is blurred when it comes to what is socially acceptable...every generation that line keeps getting pushed back. And every generation this debate happens, and it never solves anything. The change happens naturally and the people at the "front" of the change will always take the flak for saying innapproiate things.
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Hey wheat great job on Weapon Of Choice keep it up also good times on U.O.!
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On May 30 2011 08:40 Darksteel wrote:
In a TV show known as HBO's Game of Thrones, that has millions of viewers a young seemingly underaged girl is raped by a large muscular man on screen and there were barely no objections about that from public. Sure the man was his husband but doesn't make it any less rape. The same in showtime's show The Borgias, character that was 14 years old (iirc) was married and then raped by her husband and thats all ok because its fiction. I would argue that these scenes are more harmful to rape victims than someones SC2 stream using rape as a synonym for domination or destruction. Both of these series are rated mature i guess, so same principal could be employed to streams that are rated mature. So if its content for people over 18 years old, the audience should be mature enough to see the context of the language used in the content they are viewing.
Please look at this discussion in context, as you should look at the context of the words used. By this I mean the mainstream media does display more harmfull language and content than any SC2 stream I have ever seen. I loved the show and thanks DJWheat for having balls to do a show like this.
I think that's slightly different though, those are fictional narratives that are meant to show the effects of rape in the environment of the show/film. The issue with the word is the question as to whether it trivializes the word or if it's okay to use it casually, in these shows the rape or traumatic event is generally represented in an authentic manner and in a way that is respectable. A rape victims may be taken aback or made to remember her own rape because of such a scene but it's a different from offending a rape victims by making light of the word the holds weight to them.
I understand the other arguments in regards to words and context, and am still sort of figuring my stance on the matter but I think your comparison to be a little off, the question is largely of words being offensive, and while such a scene could be, I guess "harmful" in the sense that it may make someone think about the time they were raped, but it is generally expected to do the event justice and not make light of it.
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Destiny absolutely humiliated himself today, in my opinion. I was absolutely appalled by so much of what he said that I have to vent that frustration publicly.
I've interviewed rape victims immediately after they've been assaulted. When you've seen that kind of pain, and you realize that it's going to emotionally impact them for the rest of their life, you can't listen to the kind of ridiculous, fatuous statements he was making today without getting incensed. "A lot of women who've been raped are able to make jokes about it?" Really? Are you fucking kidding me? Who are these women, because I've never met them. The ones I've met (at least, the ones that are old enough to be considered 'women' and not 'girls') aren't joking about it. They're grappling with the enormity of an experience that quite often precludes them from ever pursuing another successful relationship.
And you know what? Rape is a reality that all women deal with. It's a reality that can strike any of them at any time, whether they're a single mother or a teenage girl or a college student. So, no, it's not just something that affects only a tiny portion of women - it's a reality that's in the back of a woman's mind when she's walking down an empty street alone, or when she's being stared at on the subway by a creepy guy, late at night.
On the subject of race - I know a lawyer, a black lawyer, who went into criminal court one time in casual clothing, only to be told by a court officer "have a seat, your attorney will be with you in a moment." This guy has been a respected prosecutor for thirty years, in and out of that same court for most of his career and a court officer takes one look at his denim slacks and sneakers and automatically makes him for a criminal because of his skin color. He doesn't think "he's probably a paralegal", he thinks "he's a defendant."
I know another lawyer, a white lawyer, whom I was sitting next to in an upstate courtroom. He pointed at a paralegal who had walked into the courtroom and said, under his breath, "that's something you don't see often." I didn't know what he meant. He clarified "One of 'those people' wearing a suit."
THAT is the kind of racism that still exists today, Destiny. It's not the Jim Crow, lynch mob, cross-burning racism of the 1950's - it's the unconscious prejudice, it's institutional racism like higher interest rates on home loans for blacks, it's the long glances you get from a clerk when you're alone in the back of a convenience store late at night, it's the nervous looks people give you when you sit next to them at 2:00 am on the subway, it's the subtle and unthinking insinuation that you've only gotten where you have in life because of a white man's pity.
THAT is part of why people are hurt by the N-word. Do you know the other part? It's the idea that, no matter how far we've come from that time, no matter how far we've removed ourselves from that part of history, it's the idea that a single word like that can be used to define a person of color. It's the idea that it doesn't matter who or what you are - you can be called a 'nigger', and that word sums you up, defines the entirety of your existence, strips you of your individuality and makes you just a faceless member of an underclass. And that idea, whether you want to recognize it's existence or not, has NOT gone away in the last fifty years, and it might never go away - it's something everyone keeps in the back of their head because it's the kind of realization that can't be unthought.
But to be on-topic - if people are serious about making e-sports a successful venue, they need to step outside of themselves and realize that their audience is not just young heterosexual white males. Some people don't fall into that category, and some of those people take their racial, ethnic or religious background, or their sexual orientation, or their prior life experiences quite seriously. The inability to demonstrate even a modicum of respect for those people's feelings strikes me as so incredibly callous and arrogant that, quite frankly, I was appalled during today's show. Your hypothetical desire to 'freely express' yourself with vulgar and hurtful language matters more than respecting your audience and exercising a basic level of decency for their feelings? How much more self-important can a person be?
That said, I strongly respect Incontrol for admitting that he isn't perfect. Nobody is. The point is that you should try to accept your role as a representative of something larger than yourself, and you should try to comport yourself in a manner that respects other people's perspectives even if you can't bring yourself to respect them in reality. Even if someone doesn't always succeed, it matters most of all that they tried - that they placed the well-being of their organizational affiliations (i.e. e-sports or a team affiliation) and the emotional well-being of other people who are receiving said message, over their own base wants. If you can do that, then you'd start to build some credibility in my eyes, but today I saw a confident, responsible adult in Incontrol, and a petulant, crude boy in Destiny.
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I think what iNcontroL was trying to point out is that a popular streamer like Destiny, like it or not, is a face for the community as a whole. When someone who hears about StarCraft and Team Liquid heads over to teamliquid.net and wants to check out a stream that has thousands of viewers, they could very will click on Steven Bonnell II's stream. Do we as a community really want racial slurs to be a commonplace thing among our most visible and accessible members? This community was created around an intense passion for a game and sharing that passion with others. If I had a friend who was maybe a bit hesitant to get their feet wet in the StarCraft community, I would absolutely NOT send them to Destiny's stream.
I also think Destiny's points about context are pretty extreme and shortsighted. Context is NOT always everything. There ARE words that have particular meanings and were designed to express something very specific. While I agree that context can play a role in certain situations, the "N" word's sole purpose was to be offensive and demeaning to an entire group of people based on race. That is the meaning of the word. How can you then say, "Well, I didn't MEAN it in that 'context' so it is therefore not an offensive thing to say."? That is an incredibly selfish way to live. There ARE alternative words that do not denote an inferior status of humanity based on race or words that do not mean by definition: a heinous forcible sexual act.
Having said that, it is Destiny's stream and he has the right to do whatever he wants on there. I don't expect that he will change what he does because of anything I have said. But I do hope people will take a second look at some of the "common" vernacular that is thrown around in this community and realize that just because we say, "Oh, I didn't mean it that way," it isn't offensive to a lot of people.
Also - Very well said PanzerKing
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Offensive content on MY INTERNET? Get the fuck out. People need to grow up and get over this kind of nonsense. Words is just words.
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I was very disappointed at how fast this was brushed away during the show. Because at the time I thought you had hit a very hot topic. So I'll just bring this up here: Why isn't there a special upgrade for the marines that allows them to rape zealots?
User was warned for this post
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EPT
