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On January 20 2013 01:24 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 01:08 rEalGuapo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 19 2013 20:53 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote:
100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is. Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake! Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back. PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton. For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory. A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply. Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . . Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough. Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in. ____ Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost) 2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base. True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind. The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased. Summing up my original Post: Zerg:Overlord Speed: 100-100 Overlord Drops: 200-200 Overlords: 0-0 you will have enough to drop your entire army as long as it is not pure Zerglings. 300-300 to drop as much as you want. Terran:Factory: 150-100 Starport: 150-100 Medivac: 100-100 2 Supply 450-300 and 2 Supply for a single Medivac to drop up to 8 units, depending on size. Protoss:Robotic: 200-100 Warp Prism: 200-0 2 Supply 300-100 and 2 Supply for a single Warp Prism to drop up to 4 units and Warp in. Keep in mind that even though you can Warp in more units, you can not retreat with them, they will die, forcing you to do damage. Zerg: 300-300 - all Overlords get Drop and SpeedTerran: 450-300 - 1 MedivacProtoss: 300-100 - 1 Warp PrismAt least to me it does not seem like Zerg drops are that much more expensive than from the other races. If you include Factory and Starport in the cost to get a Medivac, why didn´t you include Lair-tech in the costs for Overlord drop?
My bad! Will update.
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On January 19 2013 20:53 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote:
100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is. Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake! Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back. PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton. For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory. A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply. Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . . Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough. Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in. ____ Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost) 2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base. True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind. The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Okay dude, don't start this. What I mean by 'this' is the stats argument.
You're going on about how a Medivac cost includes the required buildings, and then you fail to mention the Lair requirement for Zerg. It's a completely imbalanced argument. If you're going to compare stats, compare them properly at least. Also, if you're really going to consider partial supply costs in resources for your units (when you referred to the Medivac also costing 1/4 of a Supply Depot plus lost mining time), then you need to consider every single building Zerg makes. The Drone costs 50 minerals, and if it wasn't made into a building, it could have mined for the rest of the game. That's why discussions such as this are a lot more complex than people think, because you can never compare race to race exactly. They are all different.
Besides, balance arguments will never end because of how unique the races are. Eg:
"Zerg can drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base."
"Well Terran rapidly heals his units and can stim them for the highest DPS to cost ratio in the entire game."
"But Protoss doesn't even need to build units, he just warps them in instantly wherever he wants."
"Yeah but Zerg have a Nydus Network which for only 100-100 resources that they can instantly travel anywhere on the map."
And so on and so forth...
My point being, there's no point in comparing stats if you don't do it correctly. It's like weighing things using different measurements and basing the heaviest on the highest number. Completely inaccurate.
Having said all this, I'm fine with Zerg drops currently. In a standard macro game, it's what, 1.3 Infestors worth of gas? Most people get the speed upgrade anyway so it's just the drop research left.
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There hasnt been a single valid argument in this thread as to why Overlord drops are weak.
First of all the cost of Overlord dropping is not 300/300. It's pretty much impossible to calculate a general cost for drop overlords, as the upgrades are applied to all Overlords but not all are used for dropping. So if you get the upgrades and use a single Overlord to drop, then yes, that's a crazy expensive drop unit. Once you use more, the cost per unit drops below the price of a medivac or prism.
Factoring in the cost of a Factory, Starport or a Lair, (or whatever) into the cost of drop units is bullshit, as that would suggest those buildings are only used to open up the tech route to drop units. Obviously, that isn't the case.
Second, comparing the abilities of the Overlord to the Medivac and the Warp Prism is silly. All three have to be seen in context of their race, all three races have different advantages and disadvantages. Of course the Warp Prism and the Medivac are better drop ships than the Overlord, but that does not mean the Overlord is not an effective drop ship. And it does not explain why Zergs aren't using them.
The argument that comes the closest to being valid is the remark made about the speed of the overlord, as it has a decent influence on its role as a drop ship. However, you could also argue that the Overlord has more HP than the Medivac, there for it is able to take more anti air fire, which may result in the Overlord being equally good at dropping units. It also depends on the situation, in some cases more speed is better in other cases more HP is better.
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Bisutopia19315 Posts
On January 20 2013 00:36 TimedOut wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 19 2013 19:44 doggy wrote:
Before we start a discussion or make suggestions, lets have a closer look at the stats compared to the other two races:
Zerg Drop: Cost 100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300
Move speed: 1.88
Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus
Terran Drop: Cost 100/100 for each medivac
Move speed: 2.5
Move speed with Ingnite Afterburner: 4.25
Note: Medivacs are a coreunit of the terran army, which is really important in all games where biounits are used, so the costs arent "just" for drops.
Protoss Warp Prism: Cost 200/0
Move speed: 2.5
Move speed with Gravitic Drive (100/100): 3.38
Note: Warp Prisms are maybe not a core unit, but still quite important for pushing to reinforce and save/micro coreunits.
So, we see that the zerg drops are most expensive while being very slow and weak compared to the options the other two races have. People make threads claiming zerg has no weapons - we should rather say Z has weapons, but theyre everything but effective. To invest so much in nydus/drops in midgame we are almost forced to allin or at least do a ton of damage, in the lategame we still have the problem that the movement speed is just 1.88 which really seems to be a bad joke for me. Furthermore, zerg was always considered as the "mobile race", which makes that issue even more a concern for me.
Encouraging Z drop play wouldnt just buff zerg, it would make the game much more interesting and back and forth, for the players as well as the spectators. Any developement which goes away from the "get a deathball and steamroll" is good for the game itself in my opinion.
Possible suggestions:
- Buff the overlord speed gained by speedupgrade by X.XX or give Z a Ignite Burner-like ability
- Lower the costs maybe a little bit (its okay if its expensive, because we dont have to build any dropships, we always have a lot of overlords which we can use)
- Lower the costs of nydus drasticly, nydus play was a fail since WoL. It never has been effective. Lowering the costs or just make it possible to cancle the nydus when u try to build one and it gets spotted would give Z great abilities to defend and pressure at the same time.
Hi there, I think that zerg nydus/drop play is entertaining and underrated, so i really enjoy thread wanting to promote it. Sadly, i'm not sure you're doing it right, simply because your statement arent really objective, neither true... Let's first talk about the cost you explained. Zerg drop tech requires: lair (150/150) drop reasearch (100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300) overlord = irrelevant since you use them for supply. = 0 (ish, that may be discuted) supply 0 total : 350/350 for about 20 overlords drop (since everysingle overlord become a potential drop ship) and cost 0 supply Terran drop tech requires : Factorie (150/100) Starport (150/100/starport) (+ addon eventually 50/50) = 150/100 or 200/150 medivacs : 100/100 x N medivacs supply : 2/medivac total : grand total (including factory, which may be discussed) : 350/250 (buildings) + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs lower total (no factory, no addon) 150/100 + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs In the grand total case, terran drop tech is more expensive by a large margin + takes supply. Ofc medivacs do more than just droping (healing bio units) but i'm just talking about drop tech. Protoss "drop" tech (drop is between " " because of the ability to warp in reinforcement which make is quite strong, and more useful than a regular drop) robo : 200/200 warp prism 200/0 upgrade 100/100 supply : 2 total : 400/200 (+100/100 for upgrade) x N warp prism + 2 supply x N warp prism. Protoss tech is arguably a tiny bit more expensive than Zerg tech. So basically my point is (and it can be discussed) Zerg drop tech is not AS expensive as ppl may think. It's more an "i dont need to drop" or "i dont have the time to research it" or "i dont think about it" kind of tech. About drop's strenghts: Zerg overlord :Supply: 0Build Time: 25 secs (fastest to build)Hit Points: 200 Energy: 0 Movement: Slow (0.469) (Move speed: 1.88 after upgrade) Armor: 0 This is the slowest drop ship. Fastest build time. No supply taken; Highest amount of hp, no energy --> no feedback. No armor. Terran medivacs : Supply: 2 Build Time: 42 secs (decent time, can be made 2 at once) Hit Points: 150 Energy: 200 Movement: Normal (2.5) ( after booster (limited in time) 4.25)
Armor 1 This unit can heal but has low hp pool and potential high mana which make it not that good against stacked anti air and able to get feedbacked and do take 2 supply/medivacs Protoss warp prismSupply: 2 Build Time: 50 secs (decent build time, takes on other's robo units) Hit Points: 100
Shields: 40 Energy: 0 Movement: Normal (with upgrade 3.38)Armor: 0 This unit has decent hp (100+40, stronger than medivac), decent speed (faster than a non boosted medivac/orerlord), no armor, take supply (2/prism) and can then be used to warp infinity unit until stopped. So basically we can say that the Zerg drop tech has the cheapest (arguably) drop ship, with the highest amount of HP, the same load capacity (up to 8 supply) but is rather slow. Which mean it's not the best nor the worst drop tech, it just has its own strenghts and weakness. You may add that after unloading, zerg can poop creep everywhere, making building impossible, and granting bonus speed to zerg's units. All that talk to say, maybe Z drop tech needs a buff, but i'd would rather like to see it tested and used first (and for instance drop tech vs Mech play is really good, or banelings drop vs Toss...) in its current state (which is feel is already good) rahter than buffing it instant and making it almost op (i.e queens post patch). It's more about Zergies taking risk researching and using it (i.e multitasking more) than to blizzard buffing it to make it even easier. We've probably all seen some games (i'm thinking about TLO vs Mana today at IEM) or some of Dimaga's games (where he showcases how good was baneling drop against protoss) which tend to show that drop tech as it is is already strong, and that if zerg (dimaga/TLO are known for experimenting stuff in the Zerg race) took time to explore it, they may find it's already pretty good. Obviously, and again, it may still need a buff or a twist. But first of all, try to use it like it is now? (NB/: ask any Terran or protoss which faced a decent droping zerg, how hard it can be... i'm pretty sure everyone would say that's it's both strong and make the match more interesting) (NB2: we may also think about some of TLO's strat with zerg drop + nydus followup to reinforce, which lead to incredibly one sided matches.) Conclusion: I think that zerg drop and nydus play suffer from underuse and underconsideration rather than underpowering. Exploring and finding way to make them work would make the game both more interesting, and the zerg playstyle wider and more funny to watch and play. It'll allow some aggressive play from Z, which is what seems to be the current demand from the Z players.
This is the perfect post to calm my rage from the OP's math, thank you.
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I mentioned that Warp Prisms get to warp in additional units but they are trapped.
I did not expect anyone to not know that Medivacs heal...
the inclusion of SCV mining time was stupid, I should have done it for either all buildings or none, best is to disregard it because that is how the unit works.
Also you do _not_ need to include the cost of your drones since you would get the hatchery anyway (You even get one for free at the beginning)
And I just didn't like the way OP presented it, saying Well Zerg drops cost 300-300 Terran only 100-100 because that is about as stupid as you can possibly compare the costs of things.
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Maybe, Zerg harassment is more about muta, burrowed infestors and lings than drops? Look at Life and tell me Zergs are weak at multiprong harassment. Different races works differently, no big deal. I'm fine with not having viable drops.
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On January 20 2013 01:56 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 00:36 TimedOut wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 19 2013 19:44 doggy wrote:
Before we start a discussion or make suggestions, lets have a closer look at the stats compared to the other two races:
Zerg Drop: Cost 100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300
Move speed: 1.88
Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus
Terran Drop: Cost 100/100 for each medivac
Move speed: 2.5
Move speed with Ingnite Afterburner: 4.25
Note: Medivacs are a coreunit of the terran army, which is really important in all games where biounits are used, so the costs arent "just" for drops.
Protoss Warp Prism: Cost 200/0
Move speed: 2.5
Move speed with Gravitic Drive (100/100): 3.38
Note: Warp Prisms are maybe not a core unit, but still quite important for pushing to reinforce and save/micro coreunits.
So, we see that the zerg drops are most expensive while being very slow and weak compared to the options the other two races have. People make threads claiming zerg has no weapons - we should rather say Z has weapons, but theyre everything but effective. To invest so much in nydus/drops in midgame we are almost forced to allin or at least do a ton of damage, in the lategame we still have the problem that the movement speed is just 1.88 which really seems to be a bad joke for me. Furthermore, zerg was always considered as the "mobile race", which makes that issue even more a concern for me.
Encouraging Z drop play wouldnt just buff zerg, it would make the game much more interesting and back and forth, for the players as well as the spectators. Any developement which goes away from the "get a deathball and steamroll" is good for the game itself in my opinion.
Possible suggestions:
- Buff the overlord speed gained by speedupgrade by X.XX or give Z a Ignite Burner-like ability
- Lower the costs maybe a little bit (its okay if its expensive, because we dont have to build any dropships, we always have a lot of overlords which we can use)
- Lower the costs of nydus drasticly, nydus play was a fail since WoL. It never has been effective. Lowering the costs or just make it possible to cancle the nydus when u try to build one and it gets spotted would give Z great abilities to defend and pressure at the same time.
Hi there, I think that zerg nydus/drop play is entertaining and underrated, so i really enjoy thread wanting to promote it. Sadly, i'm not sure you're doing it right, simply because your statement arent really objective, neither true... Let's first talk about the cost you explained. Zerg drop tech requires: lair (150/150) drop reasearch (100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300) overlord = irrelevant since you use them for supply. = 0 (ish, that may be discuted) supply 0 total : 350/350 for about 20 overlords drop (since everysingle overlord become a potential drop ship) and cost 0 supply Terran drop tech requires : Factorie (150/100) Starport (150/100/starport) (+ addon eventually 50/50) = 150/100 or 200/150 medivacs : 100/100 x N medivacs supply : 2/medivac total : grand total (including factory, which may be discussed) : 350/250 (buildings) + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs lower total (no factory, no addon) 150/100 + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs In the grand total case, terran drop tech is more expensive by a large margin + takes supply. Ofc medivacs do more than just droping (healing bio units) but i'm just talking about drop tech. Protoss "drop" tech (drop is between " " because of the ability to warp in reinforcement which make is quite strong, and more useful than a regular drop) robo : 200/200 warp prism 200/0 upgrade 100/100 supply : 2 total : 400/200 (+100/100 for upgrade) x N warp prism + 2 supply x N warp prism. Protoss tech is arguably a tiny bit more expensive than Zerg tech. So basically my point is (and it can be discussed) Zerg drop tech is not AS expensive as ppl may think. It's more an "i dont need to drop" or "i dont have the time to research it" or "i dont think about it" kind of tech. About drop's strenghts: Zerg overlord :Supply: 0Build Time: 25 secs (fastest to build)Hit Points: 200 Energy: 0 Movement: Slow (0.469) (Move speed: 1.88 after upgrade) Armor: 0 This is the slowest drop ship. Fastest build time. No supply taken; Highest amount of hp, no energy --> no feedback. No armor. Terran medivacs : Supply: 2 Build Time: 42 secs (decent time, can be made 2 at once) Hit Points: 150 Energy: 200 Movement: Normal (2.5) ( after booster (limited in time) 4.25)
Armor 1 This unit can heal but has low hp pool and potential high mana which make it not that good against stacked anti air and able to get feedbacked and do take 2 supply/medivacs Protoss warp prismSupply: 2 Build Time: 50 secs (decent build time, takes on other's robo units) Hit Points: 100
Shields: 40 Energy: 0 Movement: Normal (with upgrade 3.38)Armor: 0 This unit has decent hp (100+40, stronger than medivac), decent speed (faster than a non boosted medivac/orerlord), no armor, take supply (2/prism) and can then be used to warp infinity unit until stopped. So basically we can say that the Zerg drop tech has the cheapest (arguably) drop ship, with the highest amount of HP, the same load capacity (up to 8 supply) but is rather slow. Which mean it's not the best nor the worst drop tech, it just has its own strenghts and weakness. You may add that after unloading, zerg can poop creep everywhere, making building impossible, and granting bonus speed to zerg's units. All that talk to say, maybe Z drop tech needs a buff, but i'd would rather like to see it tested and used first (and for instance drop tech vs Mech play is really good, or banelings drop vs Toss...) in its current state (which is feel is already good) rahter than buffing it instant and making it almost op (i.e queens post patch). It's more about Zergies taking risk researching and using it (i.e multitasking more) than to blizzard buffing it to make it even easier. We've probably all seen some games (i'm thinking about TLO vs Mana today at IEM) or some of Dimaga's games (where he showcases how good was baneling drop against protoss) which tend to show that drop tech as it is is already strong, and that if zerg (dimaga/TLO are known for experimenting stuff in the Zerg race) took time to explore it, they may find it's already pretty good. Obviously, and again, it may still need a buff or a twist. But first of all, try to use it like it is now? (NB/: ask any Terran or protoss which faced a decent droping zerg, how hard it can be... i'm pretty sure everyone would say that's it's both strong and make the match more interesting) (NB2: we may also think about some of TLO's strat with zerg drop + nydus followup to reinforce, which lead to incredibly one sided matches.) Conclusion: I think that zerg drop and nydus play suffer from underuse and underconsideration rather than underpowering. Exploring and finding way to make them work would make the game both more interesting, and the zerg playstyle wider and more funny to watch and play. It'll allow some aggressive play from Z, which is what seems to be the current demand from the Z players. This is the perfect post to calm my rage from the OP's math, thank you.
Added some more stats to the OP (everything but techpaths).
@ rEalGuapo. I did mention that the costs for terran are for each medivac. What the hell are you argueing about?
Its just a fact that both, P and T options to drop got heavily buffed recently, and nothing was done to zerg drops or/and nydus worms. You can flame as much on my math as you want. But you cannot ignore that fact. And regards the tech paths, I will also refuse to add these, according to your argumentation you could even say a SCV costs 450 minerals because you need a CC, its just dumb and makes the OP more confusing than it already is, which is bad for a open minded discussion
Furthermore, there is no build in the world which allows you to be maxed on roaches with drops at 11min. The earliest is about 12-13min (Hyun did play that style a long time in WoL)
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United States4883 Posts
On January 20 2013 01:59 Natalya wrote:
Maybe, Zerg harassment is more about muta, burrowed infestors and lings than drops? Look at Life and tell me Zergs are weak at multiprong harassment. Different races works differently, no big deal. I'm fine with not having viable drops.
Doesn't matter. The question is variety and a wide range of strategic possibilities. These things are universally good for strategy games, whether some use it or not.
As for zerg drops, I think they're in a good place at the moment. The biggest issue may be that they are a fairly big midgame investment (much like swarm hosts), so in order to make them viable in the midgame, YOU HAVE TO DO DAMAGE. It would be nice to see nydus be a slightly less risky and huge investment, making it the primary midgame harassment tool. I like the idea of being able to cancel a nydus or give zergs more nydus options so that nydus would be a more viable option. In the lategame, I think it would be great to see nydus networks used more defensively.
Lategame drops for zerg are great. You can dump all your minerals into overlords + zerglings and do a lot of damage in places your opponent can't defend while putting on pressure with gas units like broodlords or swarm hosts. In addition, mass zerg drops are much more likely to succeed against turret rings than warp prism play or medivac drops.
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no drops are fine. nydus could be worked on but if you get that nydus do your good.the only reason people can say that both are weak is because not many koreans use them, but every time i play zerg i drop against zerg or toss with nydus you drop around 4 to 8 roachs in main then nydus third and then nydus main and switch back and forth
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On January 19 2013 20:53 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote:
100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is. Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake! Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back. PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton. For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory. A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply. Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . . Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough. Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in. ____ Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost) 2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base. True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind. The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Don't be ridiculous.
Next you're saying the cost of an SCV is 450 because you need a command center...
Every game Terrans build Starports. Be it mech or bio. Stargates are not built as often, but you make ridiculous clains.
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On January 20 2013 00:14 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 20:53 rEalGuapo wrote:On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote:
100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is. Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake! Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back. PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton. For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory. A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply. Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . . Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough. Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in. ____ Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost) 2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base. True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind. The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased. Lawyered!! Seriously OP, you ignore this comment and did not reply to it, I want to see you come up with a valid answer to this, but I doubt you have since this whole post stinks of bias and whining.
To be frank I doubt you can have drop put to the 11 minute mark while still being maxed, even if you lower the cost for drop upgrade it would not help. 12-13 minute mark should be possible for good players, and I doing doomdrops with roach/ling seem kinda all-in and not that strong if the opponent correctly reads your drop play.
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Shouldn't the first question be "when is it possible for Zerg to do drop play" instead of number crunching costs?
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On January 20 2013 02:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Shouldn't the first question be "when is it possible for Zerg to do drop play" instead of number crunching costs?
I kinda disagree. For sure T and P drop options are viable much more early than Z, but you cannot compare that. While it is good for terran/protoss to drop e.g. 4helions/8marines or 4 sentries at 8minutes, its not good for zerg. Zerg wants to be maxed or nearly maxed to perform drops. Thats why drops are available much later than P/T drops, which is right in my opinion
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Why you can't drop DURING you're fighting with main army? Terran can do that, protoss can, why Zergs can't? Sometimes it's more deadly and effective
p.s. I'm a zerg
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Well, Nydus is in a weird spot balancewise. Imo they should at least buff the UPLOAD of units, so you can retreat reasonably well with bigger armies.
For drops... I'm not sure. I think they are powerful. They just don't work out buildorder wise. I mean, they are balanced for massive doomdrops. To do a massive doomdrop, you need a massive army. To have a massive army, you need a massive economy. That means drops are hardly useful in the midgame, because you cannot have economy, army and tech all at once.
Also there is simply the problem that zerg units aren't very good for dropping. Like, what you want to have in a drop is something cheap with high dps that can punish an opponent that is out of position. For zerg units, that means zerglings - which you can only load up 8 per overlord (200minerals/4supply worth of army, compared to 400/8 compared to zealots or marines). Basically, the best units that zergs can drop are roaches because they are sacrificeable and ranged - but they don't have a lot of dps which makes them only average in punishing opponents. Well and banelings into mineral lines, but those are again really expensive and somewhat coinflippy, because when the opponent runs they wont do anything.
On top of all that, P/T have to be ready for a massive mutalisk switch when playing against zerg. But when you are ready for that, you are usually also ready for any form of smaller dropplay easily.
I guess zerg drops are just what they are. I don't believe they really need buffs, because they are potent in the lategame stages. They are just not a real midgame option, due to the economy required to make them useful in the midgame.
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Good change may be for example instant drop of zerglings from overlords. Now it takes a long time to drop all 8 lings, and once enemy spot it, they won't do almost any damage, because they aren't ranged.
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i like nydus but it seems like a whole playstyle needs to be cultivated around for it to be worth the cost with any regularity IE its only use can't be just gambling that the opponent won't spot it or be able to stop it in time. not being able to cancel a worm when it's spotted seems like a big disincentive. i dunno if that's originally there for some balance reason but i feel like it will always be hard to make creative use of nydus and still win games until you're able to cancel a worm that's building and get most of your money back. it can theoretically be used like the old nydus canal to connect point of interests, act as a forward pylon, exploit lack of vision or lack of unit spread and do the whack-a-mole thing, in addition to bypassing terrain and acting as a drop mechanic. the most interesting thing to me about it is what it does to slow unit compositions, and armies with lots of queens in particular. it's like moving your base right in front of theirs and getting the advantages that come with that without actually putting your base at risk. but if they're being used like that they'll naturally become targets. so i dunno. it seems like mainly a cost thing. most games ive seen where the nydus has been used really well start out looking really good for the zerg, but the longer the zerg doesn't outright win with it the further they fall behind because of the resources going into it.
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It would be really cool if overseers could still drop units. You spend 50/50 to morph the overlord into an overseer, which will grant you additional speed. Furthermore, zerg drops suck unless it's unexpected (obviously) and in huge numbers. Only 8 lings fit in an overlord (which is dumb - it should hold 8 supply, thus 16 lings). 8 lings are fairly worthless, a few re-rallied marines or a zealot warp in will destroy this. Roaches are alright - but unlike stimmed bio, still suck at taking down stuff.
The main problem is the nydus network IMO. I don't think being able to cancel it would fix this - This would make it too easy to create and then cancel nydusses everywhere, pulling the enemy apart. Perhaps a faster build time, more HP, or some kind of ability (Some kind of 'knockback' spell once it completes to push back attacking forces? Just making stuff up here) would be cool.
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The issue is that if Zerg decides to go for drop or nydus they HAVE to do damage. It HAS to be an all in otherwise there is no way to justify the cost.
Really looking at how Blizzard has done with Zerg so far in HotS they must be working on it right now or something. Terran and Protoss are just looking SO much better than Zerg right now.
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Infestor drops would be good--but burrow move means its more cost effective to do cloak runs.
Hydra drops would be good--but infestors do it better, at the same tech time, and infestors can do it without overlords/nydus.
8 lings are okay--but wouldn't you rather runby with 20-30 lings?
Banelings work--but range is bad, can't chase workers, and can't threaten to destroy infrastructure.
But assuming there is a unit comp that is advantageous to drop--what is the game state we're looking for that makes us go "this is a good time to do a drop."
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EPT
