EPTEdit: Warp prism is definitely not a core unit. A supporting unit easily, but not core.
[D] Current state of nydus-/dropplay - Page 8
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
Edit: Warp prism is definitely not a core unit. A supporting unit easily, but not core. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 23 2013 07:32 doggy wrote: I would like to see either a decrease in costs which allows you to use the nydus defensively, especially in lategame or/and the possibilty to be able to cancle the nydus if it gets spotted. I think blizzard has to choose wheter they want the nydus to be a offensive or defensive option in the game and then decide how they buff it. Like i mentioned, i would personally prefer a cheaper version (maybe it would have to be set on creep for that or sth) Reducing the speed at which units exit is not a good idea, it already is insanely slow ^^ Or bring back Nydus Canal and do "off creep" Nydus play with overlord poop... | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
On January 23 2013 18:30 ineversmile wrote: And...I hope you guys are watching the GSL again today. Why are you always refering to WoL? HotS works completly different. Youre just watching some random games and then claim XY is imba/not imba. That is not productive for a discussion at all On January 23 2013 08:21 DoubleReed wrote: Again, you wouldn't need to nerf it or change anything if you just made it cheaper and put it at Hive-tech... Agreed, also a viable option to fix it | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
You can't afford it? You build 50 spines and 50 spores every late game. Don't sit there and say that you cannot afford it to move from one of your bases to another. Almost every low to mid master I play is sitting on 3-4 k minerals and 1-2 k gas towards the later parts of the MID game. Once again I blame this all on idra and the people that idolize him. This is the same guy that refused to build spines for defense because "you can't afford it" as zerg. Now every zerg and his mother builds hundreds of these things EVERYWHERE to defend against drops alone.. let alone the middle of the map push. Like one poster said "he says he can't afford to do it, meanwhile he a moves 40 zlings into forcefields and just stares at it" | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On January 23 2013 00:21 Umpteen wrote: Personally - and this is mostly a gut feeling - I never use drops because it feels like I'm just throwing units away to execute a really feeble attack. When a Terran drops me, it feels like yeah, I appreciate why you're doing that. My base is sparsely populated with low HP, high-value tech structures. You have room to move around, you can snipe something important from range, and if you're paying attention you can leave again because I don't tend to have much anti-air. A drop feels like a smart move. When a Protoss drops me, I can see the value of that, too. Modest upfront commitment, fast reinforcements if the drop goes well, tough, cheap, high-dps Zealots, and again my base is pretty open for you to move around and snipe stuff. You can also edit the map in real-time and turn my main into an island expansion. When I think about dropping an opponent, the idea seems really... meh. All that sim-city to try and squeeze past. If there's a single cannon or marine my lings can't reach, their pathing will spaz out and they'll die for nothing. If I send roaches their DPS is terrible. Banelings - ok, but I have to get into the actual mineral line, and it's strictly worker damage only. No tech sniping. So it's not so much that drops are expensive, more that they feel like a really poor investment. A bit like WoL Hydra: cheaper (and on paper better) than stalkers, but not as good an investment. And then there's this type of thinking. Let me ask you something, how often do you see a terran main/nat/third/4th that you can't fly an ovie in with just 4 blings and decimate his entire mineral line? Most of the time, there's going to be one missile turret in the line.. if that? The only time they'll be more is if you went heavy muta which would discourage trying to do it. Once you get to the 4th and 5th, sure they're planetarys defending now. I would suggest not a moving the blings and rather targeting the scvs. This is such a cheap move that can be done at any point of the game once the late mid to early late game rolls along. You can do it earlier but it requires you to invest more then obviously. | ||
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
On January 23 2013 22:33 shivver wrote: I always lol when I see zergs saying they can't afford something. I blame it all on idra who plays as greedy as possible, then blames the game and others when it doesn't work out. You can't afford it? You build 50 spines and 50 spores every late game. Don't sit there and say that you cannot afford it to move from one of your bases to another. Almost every low to mid master I play is sitting on 3-4 k minerals and 1-2 k gas towards the later parts of the MID game. Once again I blame this all on idra and the people that idolize him. This is the same guy that refused to build spines for defense because "you can't afford it" as zerg. Now every zerg and his mother builds hundreds of these things EVERYWHERE to defend against drops alone.. let alone the middle of the map push. Like one poster said "he says he can't afford to do it, meanwhile he a moves 40 zlings into forcefields and just stares at it" If i do speak about balance i dont mean low-, midmasters or anything below. You can only balance the game according to pro players. I spoke about not being able to afford it in MIDGAME, and no decent player floats ANY gas in midgame. Furthermore youre comparing gas with minerals which is really stupid. A immobile ENDGAME style like BL infestor just requires 50 spines and spores at home because u wont be able to get back with any units to defend harass/counters.Furthermore going Infestor + 3 doesnt allow you to spend any gas in midtier units like roaches or hydras, so you build those mass spines instead of your army. You dont have any clue about what ure talking, seriously. And tell me one zerg here in the thread who refered to idra or idolized him. You dont even write and explain your opinion but write a troll-novel like that? Lol And then there's this type of thinking. Let me ask you something, how often do you see a terran main/nat/third/4th that you can't fly an ovie in with just 4 blings and decimate his entire mineral line? Most of the time, there's going to be one missile turret in the line.. if that? The only time they'll be more is if you went heavy muta which would discourage trying to do it. Once you get to the 4th and 5th, sure they're planetarys defending now. I would suggest not a moving the blings and rather targeting the scvs. This is such a cheap move that can be done at any point of the game once the late mid to early late game rolls along. You can do it earlier but it requires you to invest more then obviously. Thats just halfway true. In the endgame i definately agree. Banedrops should be utilized much more often. Still, in the midgame you cant just spend so much gas into drops and banes just for attacking the eco. You can do the same with roach/ling runbys without spending so much time and gas to a techpath. In addition to that a good player SPLITS his scvs before you can baneling drop him. Refering to low level play regards balance doesnt make any sense as i pointed out above. If you really want to commit so much gas during midgame for scv damage you should rather sneak a infestor in if the enemy lacks detection, that would cost less, doesnt take as much time as researching drops and allows you for sure (if there is no detection which u need to scout before) to do damage. A bane drop can work or cant work. 400 gas investment into such a gamble is more than risky in midgame when there will be a 3 base pre-hive timing which u need to stop | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 23 2013 22:41 shivver wrote: And then there's this type of thinking. Let me ask you something, how often do you see a terran main/nat/third/4th that you can't fly an ovie in with just 4 blings and decimate his entire mineral line? Most of the time, there's going to be one missile turret in the line.. if that? The only time they'll be more is if you went heavy muta which would discourage trying to do it. Once you get to the 4th and 5th, sure they're planetarys defending now. I would suggest not a moving the blings and rather targeting the scvs. This is such a cheap move that can be done at any point of the game once the late mid to early late game rolls along. You can do it earlier but it requires you to invest more then obviously. Most of the time a T/P is going to be in a VERY defensive position against zerg and semiequipped to deal with a sudden mutaliskswitch. Thats how you must play vs Zerg. So yeah, it's actually a pretty raresight to see such dropable locations before the lategame. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On January 23 2013 21:22 doggy wrote: Why are you always refering to WoL? HotS works completly different. Youre just watching some random games and then claim XY is imba/not imba. That is not productive for a discussion at all You didn't see the game, or you wouldn't be using this argument. + Show Spoiler [Leenock vs Baby on Whirlwind] + Leenock uses Hydras in ZvT, cross-map, on the biggest map in the universe, then goes for a big drop in the main. The only thing HotS would do to change this is give those Hydras speed so the drop is actually more effective. And if he was worrying about widow mines, too, Leenock easily could have just brought a couple more ovies with him to tank that damage for his drop--he did that already to handle the turrets from the angle he hit. You should go watch that game, anyways. It's one of the best games of SC2 I've seen since the game came out. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On January 21 2013 07:03 sagefreke wrote: I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL... And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play? the nydus isn't ignored because it's not useful, it's because the opportunity cost of not buying infestors or hive tech is stupidly high | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-543-rootcatz-zvz-hots-special/ For what it's worth, it is some creative plays that can work quite well. Back in WOL, I use Nydus worm in a few match ups. Maybe 1 in 10. Mostly to catch the opponent off guard or when I am behind. It is gas expensive and if the other guy caught the worm before it comes up, it is hard to recover. But those that i pull off it work squite well. I am a Diamond player. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On January 23 2013 18:30 ineversmile wrote: And...I hope you guys are watching the GSL again today. Should I keep posting this, with each day of Code S with a zerg playing? /thread? | ||
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