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On January 22 2013 18:34 doggy wrote:Regards Nydusplay you mentioned: I dont think its about "What is easier to play". Pro players have about an average APM of 300, there is no reason for them for playing easy strats. Its just a ruge risk.
Of course they're going to play something simpler, if it works. If all of your opponents are losing to a 2-base all-in, why would you do anything else? When they figure it out, then you do something more complicated. That's how strategy progresses in RTS.
300 gas for MAYBE getting a nydus up and use out of it? Why shouldnt u get 2 infestors more, or a few upgrades or T3 tech? That all is much less of a risk and sure to be worth it. Nydus is not. And regrads reinforcing. Reinforcing isnt really that much faster with nydus due the slow load time. So most people prefer solid creep spread to reinforce (which is a lot harder to do compared to spawning a nydus)
Infestor tech is completely different from Nydus tech. The 2 things do completely different jobs, most of the time. But let's just consider the tech costs and speed for each path:
An infestation pit is 50 seconds, pathogen glands is 80 seconds, so well-timed infestors will pop at 2:10 after the beginning of that tech path (since you time them to hatch right after glands is done, ideally). The pit and glands costs 250/250 in total, to set up. Infestors cost 2 supply each, which equates to another 25 minerals and 1/4 larva per caster (considering overlords invested). Also of note: the pit also costs 1 larva and 50 minerals, so it's 300/250 1 larva to tech infestors (plus all their costs).
Nydus Network is 50 seconds and costs 150/200; a Nydus Worm takes 20 seconds and costs 100/100. Nydus Worms cost no supply and no additional larva beyond the first one to form a Network, which means they don't eat your larva count or force more overlords. So the first Nydus Worm can pop 60 seconds before the first batch of Infestors is out, and that means you could make 3 Nydus Worms before the timing when Infestors could be out. A Nydus Worm isn't something you would mass-produce all at once, like a batch of Infestors, but you wouldn't want it that way anyways...and if you did, you could just build another Network. A Nydus Worm, since it costs 0 supply, is something that can be used at the 200/200 supply cap, just like spine/spore crawlers. Nydus worms also produce creep. Note that it costs 250/300 for a Network and your first Worm, plus 50 minerals and 1 larva for the drone to adjust this to 300/300 to get a Worm out.
May as well look at Overlord tech, along this path. Ventral Sacs (Drop) costs 200/200 and takes 2:10 to research, which is literally the time to hatch 75 energy infestors. Pneumatized Carapace (Speed) costs 100/100 and takes 1 minute to finish, so in total it's 300/300, which is 50/50 more than Infestor tech. However, from there on out, all the dropships you build are just 100 minerals and 0 supply (and a larva, of course). The research, itself, costs 0 larvae (and obviously no supply), which is definitely relevant. This is also something that costs 0 supply...in fact, you can make as many overlords as you have minerals and larvae, so in the late game you could go up to a ridiculous number of overlords and just drop/threaten drops all over the place.
And then you figure a Spire and +1 air weapons is 350/300 and one larva to tech mutas, for another cost comparison for lair tech.
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I mean, it's not free to get drops or a Nydus, but how often do we see zergs with the money to get whatever they want, but they still don't get either of them? If it's 200/200 and they're not getting either, but there's like 3k/1.5k in the bank? What's up with that? That's like a guy with 80 lings and Hive tech not getting Adrenal Glands...people simply didn't get that upgrade for a long time, and there just wasn't a rational explanation. But it still happened. It's not because people are stupid; it's just easier to not get something than it is to get something.
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On January 22 2013 19:25 goswser wrote:
One of the main reasons you often don't see zergs opt for these tech paths, is because if zerg invests their resources into this tech, and protoss defends against the drop or nydus, then they will simply attack you at about 200 supply and it is nearly impossible to defend. I fear that they are making drop/nydus even less viable in HOTS, because the mothership core's defensive abilities will make drop and nydus strategies even harder to pull off vs competent opponents.
Yes thats the problem i was refering to. Its just sad Z has no possibilities to perform midgame pressure via. drops or nydus without having the fear to just die to the next push if it wont pay off.
@ineversmile
You kinda understood me wrong. I didnt want to compare some tech paths, i just wanted to point out that a pro player rather invests in something which definately pays off (e.g. upgrades/tech/techunits) instead of "wasting" 300 gas for something that maybe pays off, and the chances that it will pay off get smaller and smaller the better your opponent is.
And still i disagree about chosing the easy way to play. If every pro player would choose the easiest way to go to we would see 95% allins in all games. Thats not what is it about, its about either a) invest gas to a risky investment or b) invest gas to a save investment. I dont have to think long what i would choose regards that question
@ the poster above goswser
Defensive nyduses would be great, i would love to see that. Still its not really affordable to spend 300 gas (ok lets be correct, 300 gas for the first far away expo and 100 for every next expo) to that just for being defensive. I rather lose my expansion once and transfer to back-up expansions which only cost 300 minerals instead of paying so much gas. Even in lategame
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It is very affordable for defense nyduses. The problem isnt the price there, it is the need. If for the same price as zerg you would give terrans something similar to nydus worms, you would see it being used often, especially by mech players. Try your muta raids when at any time thors can appear in the base.
It isnt used by zergs for that because they dont require it. You should never be surprised by his main army considering you have creep. So what is left is raids, but why would you hassle with nydus worms when you got speedlings and mutas which are pretty much as fast as when you would bother with nydus worms?
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On January 22 2013 19:33 doggy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 19:25 goswser wrote:
One of the main reasons you often don't see zergs opt for these tech paths, is because if zerg invests their resources into this tech, and protoss defends against the drop or nydus, then they will simply attack you at about 200 supply and it is nearly impossible to defend. I fear that they are making drop/nydus even less viable in HOTS, because the mothership core's defensive abilities will make drop and nydus strategies even harder to pull off vs competent opponents. Yes thats the problem i was refering to. Its just sad Z has no possibilities to perform midgame pressure via. drops or nydus without having the fear to just die to the next push if it wont pay off.
So you can't just hop back in your Nydus and go home to defend? What's the problem? Isn't that exactly what the mothership core does? Or with drops, can't you kill/unpower gates to reduce the power of a push?
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I think nydus' success at the moment is totally dependent on map design. If mains are big, nydus in on the cards. If mains are small, nydus has no real chance (particularly with its build time)
I dont know what the solution is but I think some tweaking is definately in order.
Drop and overlord speed is expensive, is it overly so? hard to say (I havent played with it enough as yet) I guess the fact that 8 lings fit in an overlord which is half the pop of the tier 1 units that fit in the other races drops, that can be a problem. Lings would be my prefference for units to drop but because I just cant drop many units as I would like.
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On January 22 2013 19:48 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 19:33 doggy wrote:On January 22 2013 19:25 goswser wrote:
One of the main reasons you often don't see zergs opt for these tech paths, is because if zerg invests their resources into this tech, and protoss defends against the drop or nydus, then they will simply attack you at about 200 supply and it is nearly impossible to defend. I fear that they are making drop/nydus even less viable in HOTS, because the mothership core's defensive abilities will make drop and nydus strategies even harder to pull off vs competent opponents. Yes thats the problem i was refering to. Its just sad Z has no possibilities to perform midgame pressure via. drops or nydus without having the fear to just die to the next push if it wont pay off. So you can't just hop back in your Nydus and go home to defend? What's the problem? Isn't that exactly what the mothership core does? Or with drops, can't you kill/unpower gates to reduce the power of a push?
You misunderstood me again, i think i need to book a english class :D
In the midgame when its about defending timingpushes from P/T you CANNOT waste 300 gas. You will simply not be able to hold. Goswser explained exactly that problem too a few posts above you in case you still dont understand my point ^^.
Edit: Yes youre right when it goes for drops, they can weaken the push. But not a nydus which will be killed by probes at home if T/P isnt in the kitchen to get some coffee
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Making nydus cheaper but requiring creep to build would be one way to test out nydus viability with adding some restraint on the play. It would make offensive nydus more difficult; however, connecting bases via nydus would be a greater possibility. Maybe even things like setting up flanks with a nydus could have some potential.
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To defend a perfectly executed pre-broodlord timing you need all of these components:
-Defensive spines
-Infestors with decent amounts of energy
-Decent ling upgrades
-Ling heavy, not roach heavy
-Corrupters
-Macro hatch so you can make a large number of lings to reinforce.
Aggressive midgame play slows down you getting all this stuff. When you get overlord drop or nydus, you aren't just investing in the cost of this tech, you're investing a lot of money getting this tech out early, along with getting the numbers of roaches/lings to do something with it. Protoss production really ramps up once their 3 base economy kicks in, at which point they catapult from 110-120 supply up to 200 in a very short amount of time. If you use overlord drop, even if it does some damage, at this point in the game it will slow you down in getting all those components more than it will slow protoss down in them getting their 3 base timing. That's the main reason when you see drop used vs protoss, it is usually in a pure roach/ling max all in style, where zerg basically commits to killing protoss rather than just doing damage, because unless you kill or cripple to the point they can't do a 3 base timing, you will just lose because you can't defend it. Sure you do see drop in ZvP, but it's basically a 12 minute roach max with drop, an allin style rather than harass to do damage while you transition.
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Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place.
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On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote:
Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place.
Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P
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i hope everyone is watching code s right now
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On January 22 2013 21:16 Silencioseu wrote:
i hope everyone is watching code s right now
Na im at work T_T
Btw you cannot compare WoL and HotS, just in case someone wants to refer to that^^
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On January 22 2013 21:06 doggy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote:
Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place. Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P
+ Show Spoiler [About that Code S...] +
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On January 22 2013 21:37 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 21:06 doggy wrote:On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote:
Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place. Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P + Show Spoiler [About that Code S...] +
+ Show Spoiler [About that...] +That wasn't your average game though. Symbol took a very quick fourth base, and the dark templar tech didn't pay off at all. Sure they killed the third, but since he already had a fourth base, and just remade the hatchey, the investment wasn't worth it.
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On January 22 2013 21:42 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 21:37 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 21:06 doggy wrote:On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote:
Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place. Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P + Show Spoiler [About that Code S...] + + Show Spoiler [About that...] +That wasn't your average game though. Symbol took a very quick fourth base, and the dark templar tech didn't pay off at all. Sure they killed the third, but since he already had a fourth base, and just remade the hatchey, the investment wasn't worth it.
+ Show Spoiler [But] +Symbol did drop play in 2 back-to-back games, so doesn't that say something about his belief in drop play? It didn't even work in game 1 (because of his screw-up overcommitting) but he still did it in game 2.
EDIT: What we really need are some more spoilers inside spoilers inside spoiled quotes... 
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On January 22 2013 21:37 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 21:06 doggy wrote:On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote:
Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place. Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P + Show Spoiler [About that Code S...] +
+ Show Spoiler +Those games were not about "how to stop a prebroodlord timing"-attack (what doggy argues). Those were simple pre-prebroodlord timings. 
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Personally - and this is mostly a gut feeling - I never use drops because it feels like I'm just throwing units away to execute a really feeble attack.
When a Terran drops me, it feels like yeah, I appreciate why you're doing that. My base is sparsely populated with low HP, high-value tech structures. You have room to move around, you can snipe something important from range, and if you're paying attention you can leave again because I don't tend to have much anti-air. A drop feels like a smart move.
When a Protoss drops me, I can see the value of that, too. Modest upfront commitment, fast reinforcements if the drop goes well, tough, cheap, high-dps Zealots, and again my base is pretty open for you to move around and snipe stuff. You can also edit the map in real-time and turn my main into an island expansion.
When I think about dropping an opponent, the idea seems really... meh. All that sim-city to try and squeeze past. If there's a single cannon or marine my lings can't reach, their pathing will spaz out and they'll die for nothing. If I send roaches their DPS is terrible. Banelings - ok, but I have to get into the actual mineral line, and it's strictly worker damage only. No tech sniping.
So it's not so much that drops are expensive, more that they feel like a really poor investment. A bit like WoL Hydra: cheaper (and on paper better) than stalkers, but not as good an investment.
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You have a valid point here, but if the Nydus Worm bonus is an HP buff, then doesn't it have to be compensated by having a slower build time or a slower tech path? How do you expect someone to defend Nydus play, when they spot it, if the HP goes up significantly? It's not like a normal drop, where there's only a limited number of slots--and therefore a reinforce rally/warpin can handle business. A Nydus Worm can send in the entire zerg army if it gets up.
Increase Nydus Worm health but decrease the speed at which units exit the Nydus Worm in order to create a bottle neck for the opponent to focus fire the units as they are leaving? Another option is to allow the Nydus Network to spawn multiple Nydus Worms simultaneously so the infiltration of your opponent's base is only limited by your vision and your resources.
I think the problem with both drop tech and Nydus Worm tech is by the time the tech becomes available you're not able to invest in that tech immediately because you're sinking your resources into a dead end tech path compared to an Infestation Pit or a Spire and your drop becomes an all-in, you may as well move Nydus Worm tech to the Hive and buff it so it actually sees play as a late mid-game mechanic instead of dump resources into multiple, worthless Nydus Networks in order to spawn multiple Nydus Worms as opposed to investing into a single Nydus Network and being able to spawn multiple Nydus Worms as a default.
If there's nothing to prevent you from spawning multiple Nydus Worms with multiple Nydus Networks other than your resources and that's the only "non all-in" strategy you can use as a drop, then you may as well reduce the overhead on that strategy in order to encourage other players to use it at more dynamic timing windows (Hive + 50 seconds).
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On January 23 2013 04:42 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +
You have a valid point here, but if the Nydus Worm bonus is an HP buff, then doesn't it have to be compensated by having a slower build time or a slower tech path? How do you expect someone to defend Nydus play, when they spot it, if the HP goes up significantly? It's not like a normal drop, where there's only a limited number of slots--and therefore a reinforce rally/warpin can handle business. A Nydus Worm can send in the entire zerg army if it gets up.
Increase Nydus Worm health but decrease the speed at which units exit the Nydus Worm in order to create a bottle neck for the opponent to focus fire the units as they are leaving? Another option is to allow the Nydus Network to spawn multiple Nydus Worms simultaneously so the infiltration of your opponent's base is only limited by your vision and your resources.
I would like to see either a decrease in costs which allows you to use the nydus defensively, especially in lategame or/and the possibilty to be able to cancle the nydus if it gets spotted. I think blizzard has to choose wheter they want the nydus to be a offensive or defensive option in the game and then decide how they buff it.
Like i mentioned, i would personally prefer a cheaper version (maybe it would have to be set on creep for that or sth)
Reducing the speed at which units exit is not a good idea, it already is insanely slow ^^
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EPT
