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300/300 for a play that promises great rewards? imo, zerg drop play or nydus play both suffer a big problem - it just aint consistent enough.
First of all, why not a faster +1 +1 or a spire with +1 or an infestor pit? If the drop or nydus fails, what then? You probably have lost the game 'cause you tech is way too behind to do anything, albeit putting pressure or otherwise defend.
And I can't think of any good units that I can effectively throw away. Terran can do marines with heal, Protoss can zealots with shields, what about Zerg? Lings, sure but as long as your opponent is aware, he can either pull workers or wrap in zealots and that's the end of story. Roaches cost gas - don't do damage quick enough. Infestors could be good, but each costs 150 gas. Perhaps 2 infestors plus a couple of lings would be effective in wiping out the worker line or something. Or maybe queens are useful for this? I don't know.
Also, I am yet to see a zerg drop or nydus (except doom drops) that could outright kill a base. For me, it is just a lot safer and consistent to get an extra base instead.
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On January 21 2013 02:13 iGn1t3 wrote:
300/300 for a play that promises great rewards? imo, zerg drop play or nydus play both suffer a big problem - it just aint consistent enough.
First of all, why not a faster +1 +1 or a spire with +1 or an infestor pit? If the drop or nydus fails, what then? You probably have lost the game 'cause you tech is way too behind to do anything, albeit putting pressure or otherwise defend.
And I can't think of any good units that I can effectively throw away. Terran can do marines with heal, Protoss can zealots with shields, what about Zerg? Lings, sure but as long as your opponent is aware, he can either pull workers or wrap in zealots and that's the end of story. Roaches cost gas - don't do damage quick enough. Infestors could be good, but each costs 150 gas. Perhaps 2 infestors plus a couple of lings would be effective in wiping out the worker line or something. Or maybe queens are useful for this? I don't know.
Also, I am yet to see a zerg drop or nydus (except doom drops) that could outright kill a base. For me, it is just a lot safer and consistent to get an extra base instead.
Firstly, you completely forgot about banelings which are fantastic in drops. Hydras are also great in nydus/drops because of the high DPS. As long as they get away, it's usually quite good.
Secondly, it's a little bizarre to say "well the opponent can just pull workers and warp in some zealots." That's true of any drop with any race. Just because something can be defended doesn't mean it's worthless. People don't like having lings in their bases.
Thirdly, ling drops are almost guaranteed to be cost effective if you don't lose the overlord. Not because they're good, but because lings are so incredibly cheap. There's plenty of instances in games where you can throw lings away and constantly dropping can cause severe problems with people's multi-tasking.
Fourthly, since when are drops supposed to kill a base?
Lastly, what if you already have a spire/+1 or infestors...?
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I started a thread similar to this before they changed the forum rules, and my observation/proposal was that Blizzard could change how the Zerg dropping mechanism and Overseers functionioned by giving Overseers the detection, speed and drop upgrades by default, increase their build time to 40 seconds and allow Spore Crawlers to detect while uprooted in order to bridge the 24 second gap in mobile detection between the Lair and the increased Overseer morphing time.
Basically, instead of Zerg using end-game doom drops with Ultralisks, Zerg could gain drop tech as a part of their Lair upgrade and be able to harass the opponent with handfuls of units about 90 seconds before Mutalisks could be spawned in order to give Zerg more aggressive options.
I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with how Zerg's drop mechanism works right now from a theory perspective, other than it's not possible to research the drop mechanism immediately at lair tech and thus becomes a late mid-game option for a KO punch as opposed to the timely harassment of the other two races.
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I don't think drops are too expensive, they're actually very good depending when you get drop. The problem really is the viability of nydus play. For one thing, using a nydus to reinforce is useless in many scenarios because zerg units in general move across the map pretty fast. The next problem is how fast they die, for 100/100 they shouldn't be able to die to workers surrounding it. The final problem is how slowly units exit the nydus.
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I have no problem with Overlord drops but Nydus needs to be buffed in SOME way. It's been clear since the WoL beta that the Nydus is just too expensive for Lair tech and is too much of an all in move unlike Overlord drops (which also doubled as bane rain for the Zerg army in team fights).
There are literally a myriad of different ways Blizzard can go about buffing the Nydus:
1. Lower the time it takes for a Nydus Worm to build.
2. Decrease the cost of making Nydus Worm. In particular, lower the gas cost (note: the Nydus Worm, not Nydus Canal)
3. Remove the screaming notification that let's everyone know "Hey your opponent has a Nydus!"
4. Increase the amount of units that can come out of a Nydus at one time as opposed to one by one.
5. Introduce an upgrade that allows Zerg to make more than one Nydus at a time.
Just one of these buffs can help the Nydus.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
The best buff for Nydus is make them affected by ground armor upgrades. In late game they will have 4 armor, so workers will not be able to shut down them
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They are both cheap if you look at what you get for it in return. The problem is more zergs dont need it. Why would you bother with nyduses to stop raids when your army is as fast as the zerg army? And with creep spread you should never be surprised by your enemies main army, so also your slower units should be in place in time.
If you think that nydus shouldnt be able to be killed in time by your workers, do you then also think it is a good idea that if a toss warp prism is in warp mode for lets say 5 seconds they are able to teleport their entire army to it, and back again? If you just keep a few hydras/corrupters in every base you should also be able to kill them in time.
If you cannot stop a nydus with workers, the nydus must have other limitations to compensate, it is just too strong as ability. It effectively means you have to keep sufficient army units in each base to make sure you can kill a possible nydus in time, regardless if he is doing anything with nydus worms.
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The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms.
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On January 21 2013 05:16 ineversmile wrote:
The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms.
I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL...
And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play?
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If you improve drops then you need to nerf the speed b/c runbys are so much more vastly effective for zerg. If you complain that you don't have drops then take away zerg runbys and I would gladly like to zerg forced to drop like terran is...
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On January 21 2013 07:03 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 05:16 ineversmile wrote:
The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms. I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL... And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play?
I honestly can't recall a Zerg using nydus correctly, but it's absolutely possible.
Any game where you want to attack and finish your opponent there should be a nydus behind your army, just like Toss does with proxy pylons. This allows your reinforcments to arrive pretty much directly on the battlefield.
I guess the reason many Zerg's don't do this is the cost of the thing, but considering it's often the difference between winning and losing for me, it's well worth it (would you rather roaches later, or lings now?).
Zerg drops are strong, but they do rely heavily on circumstance (I don't like to use them too often) which means you aren't going to see them all the time.
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I think nydus would be better if it had armor maybe 3-4 it's a giant armored worm lol. This would make it so you would need more than workers to kill it you would actually have to scout and prepare like drops so you could leave 1 or 2 units waiting for it with workers. Right now if they see it and are completely out of position you can still pull workers and kill the nydus even if its like 40% done and still kill it in time.
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On January 21 2013 09:55 CajunMan wrote:
I think nydus would be better if it had armor maybe 3-4 it's a giant armored worm lol. This would make it so you would need more than workers to kill it you would actually have to scout and prepare like drops so you could leave 1 or 2 units waiting for it with workers. Right now if they see it and are completely out of position you can still pull workers and kill the nydus even if its like 40% done and still kill it in time.
The nydus NEEDS to be able to be taken out by workers or it would be massively OP.
If you're trying to get the nydus into your opponent's base, you are trying a low-success-rate cheese (not a bad thing nessecarily, but something with an incredible payoff if your opponent is not vigilant).
The nydus excels at reinforcement and adding mobility to a ground army. It's amazing at these things (it's more expensive than, but superior to Warp Gate).
If you wanted to argue for a Nydus buff (not needed, it's already fantastic), make it cheaper (50 gas only?). It's not supposed to be able to go up in an opponent's base just because their army is at the front (nydus in base vs Protoss actually = gg if you don't mess up, terran can mitigate damage with building lifts and get their army back faster, but it's still crazy strong).
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On January 21 2013 10:50 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 09:55 CajunMan wrote:
I think nydus would be better if it had armor maybe 3-4 it's a giant armored worm lol. This would make it so you would need more than workers to kill it you would actually have to scout and prepare like drops so you could leave 1 or 2 units waiting for it with workers. Right now if they see it and are completely out of position you can still pull workers and kill the nydus even if its like 40% done and still kill it in time. The nydus NEEDS to be able to be taken out by workers or it would be massively OP. If you're trying to get the nydus into your opponent's base, you are trying a low-success-rate cheese (not a bad thing nessecarily, but something with an incredible payoff if your opponent is not vigilant). The nydus excels at reinforcement and adding mobility to a ground army. It's amazing at these things (it's more expensive than, but superior to Warp Gate). If you wanted to argue for a Nydus buff (not needed, it's already fantastic), make it cheaper (50 gas only?). It's not supposed to be able to go up in an opponent's base just because their army is at the front (nydus in base vs Protoss actually = gg if you don't mess up, terran can mitigate damage with building lifts and get their army back faster, but it's still crazy strong).
It doesn't NEED to if you aren't scouting or preparing properly that sounds more like your fault. Zerg has to dedicate tons of minerals every game to spores and spines at every expansion and main you can't keep 2 zlots, a couple marines hanging around? hmmm
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If they really want Nydus used more, they would just move it up to Hive and make it cheaper.
Kind of ruins the all-ins. But you're never going to use Nydus in a solid way before Hive anyway...
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Disagree with the drop buff for Z. Z's drops can be a powerful weapon. There are reasons Z's don't use drops that I can think of, but those have no relations to cost or timing.
Z's need to experiment more with drops. I mean, you guys can fly over a bunch of empty overlords and T/P can't tell whether they're about to shit or not, even with detectors. Try bainling drop once. Then every time your overlords fly in T/P will have to move their armies just in case.
Nydus can be reworked, I suppose. But I have no clue how it can be balanced.
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Maybe Nydus can be buffed by simply making it not scream? So that Z can do more stealth tactics.
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What about making it more similar to the Terran nuke?
Change the mound to not show up on minimap like the red dot for the nuke. When the Zerg hits the ability, the enemy gets the warning and has to look for where it is. If he spots it, hooray nydus stopped, if he doesn't it does the damage
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On January 21 2013 12:32 KnT wrote:
What about making it more similar to the Terran nuke?
Change the mound to not show up on minimap like the red dot for the nuke. When the Zerg hits the ability, the enemy gets the warning and has to look for where it is. If he spots it, hooray nydus stopped, if he doesn't it does the damage
That sounds neat what if it could be upgraded to poop out swarms of broodlings?
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EPT
