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The OP lists medivacs and warp prism as (semi-) core units of the terran/toss race, but in his list he doesnt list overlords as a core unit of the zerg race? That seems slightly biased to me.
The only way I see you can make drops better for zerg without making the current doom-drop tactics OP is forcing zerg to morph overlords into another unit for better dropship capability. But I also wonder why zerg would need drops to be as powerful as those of other races. We also dont get something similar to ling runbys, and as terran I dont have spine crawlers to defend my main against ground units. Races are different.
Regarding the nydus, it does see uses, and I would think it is very hard to boost it without making it overpowered. If zerg has a reasonable chance to get their army into the main base of the opponent simply with a nydus they will pretty much always win. Then for sure I can never move out, since when you move out the nydus comes, destroys your base, and the units are back in time to defend.
When I contain a zerg and they do try nydus, they often only try it in my main/natural/third. While they really dont need to get directly into my main, just outside my natural would do fine too. Because the nydus is two-way it is a good unit to move your army around. We see it in HotS also used quite often with queens and swarm hosts. However since besides them the zerg army is so freakishly fast, there generally is not much reason to use them. That has little to do with the nydus worm, and more with the speed of the zerg army.
What you could do is make a nydus exit stronger and faster (unloading) the longer it exists, so it is better for moving around without making them capable of getting entire army really in 2 seconds in your main. With the current way of nydus worm you really cant boost that without making the game far too binary: you fail to kill nydus, you lose (while that is partially true now, generally you wont fail to kill the nydus).
Or you should do their initial idea, different nydus types. I could imagine a stronger/faster unloading type, which can only be made on creep, so only to move your army around, not to attack. And something that can spit out a bunch of units fast, and is stronger than normal one, but at the same time which is a suicide nydus. So you cannot kill it with a bunch of workers, and when it is finished it can throw out something like 10 roaches, but then the nydus also immediatly retracts again, so no way back (unless you can defend it long enough with those roaches to get a normal nydus in place), and no further reinforcements.
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Drop play is good only during two circumstances.
You're opponent has a bunch of bases and is forced to spread his defenses thin.
You have slow units that need to be ferried quickly from place to place in order to deal decent damage.
Zerg has neither of these ever happening for him.
Zerg always has more bases, and it's easier to burrow move infestors than to do drop play with them. You could do drops with hydras but rarely do Zerg go hydra so it never really happens.
When you're already faster then everyone and have more bases than everyone--drop play does not help you.
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On January 19 2013 23:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Drop play is good only during two circumstances.
You're opponent has a bunch of bases and is forced to spread his defenses thin.
You have slow units that need to be ferried quickly from place to place in order to deal decent damage.
Zerg has neither of these ever happening for him.
Zerg always has more bases, and it's easier to burrow move infestors than to do drop play with them. You could do drops with hydras but rarely do Zerg go hydra so it never really happens.
When you're already faster then everyone and have more bases than everyone--drop play does not help you.
Well, drop play can benefit zerg with a big ground army ,i.e., roach/hydra and force the opponent to the back of his main base while you attack somewhere else with your core army. Same logic as for marine/marauder drops versus zerg. Besides with big ground armies the so called doomdropping can be strong aswell.
The more mobile ling/muta/bane drops is not necessary since muta fill both roles, to draw units back to the opponent base and pushing
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On January 19 2013 23:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Drop play is good only during two circumstances.
You're opponent has a bunch of bases and is forced to spread his defenses thin.
You have slow units that need to be ferried quickly from place to place in order to deal decent damage.
Zerg has neither of these ever happening for him.
Zerg always has more bases, and it's easier to burrow move infestors than to do drop play with them. You could do drops with hydras but rarely do Zerg go hydra so it never really happens.
When you're already faster then everyone and have more bases than everyone--drop play does not help you.
you forget playing against mech and to say only 2 circumstances is ignorant to the other situations
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I would like to see the Nydus to get an Upgrade to load in units faster to retreat and strike again at another place.
A speed load in Nydus would make Zerg really mobile as it is called.
In my opinion the two really mobile units are Zerglins and Mutas, which allows you to strike at multiple places and then retreat without losing too much of your Army.
And with Roach Hydra coming back into the game in HotS I can see Player using this to build a nydus behind their army, striking the third and retreat.
The thing about Terran drops is that it is an viable option while playing standard bio with medivacs. You dont have to spend minerals and gas for something which you never use, because your opponent fortifed himself in his base.
You can drop, but you dont have to because your Dropship can heal your Units. and in the most scenarios, that's worthier than dropping in the Base.
In addition to that Marines have extremely good DPS, are ranged and get healed from their dropship, what that makes the Drop defense more difficult.
Zerglings in the other hand get blocked by buildings and shot by stalkers, Sentry,, Immortals Collossi, Marines, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, often without the option to get even near the defending army.
Roaches dont do enough Damage and need 2 Slots in an Overlord, but can take a lot damage. But losing a whole Army in an Drop Attemp leaves you defenseless against the counter push.
Hydras Cost too much and get killed pretty easily for their sick DPS.
Moreover Overlord drop don't give you the option to get your Units out of the dangezone unlike Medivacs with Ignite Afterburner, Mass recall or Speed Warprisms.
Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus
Note: Nydus canals are a Warp mechanic. They let you instantly reeinforce from one side of the map to the other side. This is, in theory multiple times stronger than any drop mechanic.
I agree but the most players rather spend that Gas in Units than in Tech, which can overwhelm an opponent. That's worth a Spire and one level 1 Upgrade.
I would like to see an cost reduction, because leaving your Nydus Head behind results in an definite loss of Ressources.
Just my 2 cents though.
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On January 19 2013 20:53 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote:
100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is. Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake! Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back. PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton. For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory. A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply. Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . . Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough. Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in. ____ Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost) 2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base. True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind. The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Lawyered!! Seriously OP, you ignore this comment and did not reply to it, I want to see you come up with a valid answer to this, but I doubt you have since this whole post stinks of bias and whining.
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On January 19 2013 23:53 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 23:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Drop play is good only during two circumstances.
You're opponent has a bunch of bases and is forced to spread his defenses thin.
You have slow units that need to be ferried quickly from place to place in order to deal decent damage.
Zerg has neither of these ever happening for him.
Zerg always has more bases, and it's easier to burrow move infestors than to do drop play with them. You could do drops with hydras but rarely do Zerg go hydra so it never really happens.
When you're already faster then everyone and have more bases than everyone--drop play does not help you. you forget playing against mech and to say only 2 circumstances is ignorant to the other situations
Actually, with mech, what's important is counterattacks, not drops. Drops is a form of counterattack, but slid runbys. I guess you could count "drops are good when enemy base is empty" but at that point even a zealot runby would be effective.
If your opponent has less bases, he's turtling so you can drop since he has his army already defending. If your army is already faster than his--why drop when you can simply send your entire army where his army isn't and then run away. These philosophies hold true no matter what the race.
If your opponent is spread thin--drops work. If you are slower the. Your opponent, drops work. When you're at neither situation, drops simply parses your army for zero strategic gain.
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drop cost and research time is fine. overlord speed is just too slow and needs a small buff. right now you can kite them all day long.
burrow movement roaches same thing. just needs to be a bit faster to be viable. can also be kited all day long or FF way too long
nydus either needs lower gas cost or load/unload a bit faster.
its just some small buffs needed to make those viable in a standard macro game.
.
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On January 19 2013 19:44 doggy wrote:
Before we start a discussion or make suggestions, lets have a closer look at the stats compared to the other two races:
Zerg Drop: Cost 100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300
Move speed: 1.88
Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus
Terran Drop: Cost 100/100 for each medivac
Move speed: 2.5
Move speed with Ingnite Afterburner: 4.25
Note: Medivacs are a coreunit of the terran army, which is really important in all games where biounits are used, so the costs arent "just" for drops.
Protoss Warp Prism: Cost 200/0
Move speed: 2.5
Move speed with Gravitic Drive (100/100): 3.38
Note: Warp Prisms are maybe not a core unit, but still quite important for pushing to reinforce and save/micro coreunits.
So, we see that the zerg drops are most expensive while being very slow and weak compared to the options the other two races have. People make threads claiming zerg has no weapons - we should rather say Z has weapons, but theyre everything but effective. To invest so much in nydus/drops in midgame we are almost forced to allin or at least do a ton of damage, in the lategame we still have the problem that the movement speed is just 1.88 which really seems to be a bad joke for me. Furthermore, zerg was always considered as the "mobile race", which makes that issue even more a concern for me.
Encouraging Z drop play wouldnt just buff zerg, it would make the game much more interesting and back and forth, for the players as well as the spectators. Any developement which goes away from the "get a deathball and steamroll" is good for the game itself in my opinion.
Possible suggestions:
- Buff the overlord speed gained by speedupgrade by X.XX or give Z a Ignite Burner-like ability
- Lower the costs maybe a little bit (its okay if its expensive, because we dont have to build any dropships, we always have a lot of overlords which we can use)
- Lower the costs of nydus drasticly, nydus play was a fail since WoL. It never has been effective. Lowering the costs or just make it possible to cancle the nydus when u try to build one and it gets spotted would give Z great abilities to defend and pressure at the same time.
Hi there,
I think that zerg nydus/drop play is entertaining and underrated, so i really enjoy thread wanting to promote it. Sadly, i'm not sure you're doing it right, simply because your statement arent really objective, neither true...
Let's first talk about the cost you explained.
Zerg drop tech requires:
lair (150/150)
drop reasearch (100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300)
overlord = irrelevant since you use them for supply. = 0 (ish, that may be discuted)
supply 0
total : 350/350 for about 20 overlords drop (since everysingle overlord become a potential drop ship) and cost 0 supply
Terran drop tech requires :
Factorie (150/100)
Starport (150/100/starport) (+ addon eventually 50/50) = 150/100 or 200/150
medivacs : 100/100 x N medivacs
supply : 2/medivac
total :
grand total (including factory, which may be discussed) : 350/250 (buildings) + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs
lower total (no factory, no addon) 150/100 + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs
In the grand total case, terran drop tech is more expensive by a large margin + takes supply. Ofc medivacs do more than just droping (healing bio units) but i'm just talking about drop tech.
Protoss "drop" tech (drop is between " " because of the ability to warp in reinforcement which make is quite strong, and more useful than a regular drop)
robo : 200/200
warp prism 200/0
upgrade 100/100
supply : 2
total :
400/200 (+100/100 for upgrade) x N warp prism + 2 supply x N warp prism.
Protoss tech is arguably a tiny bit more expensive than Zerg tech.
So basically my point is (and it can be discussed) Zerg drop tech is not AS expensive as ppl may think. It's more an "i dont need to drop" or "i dont have the time to research it" or "i dont think about it" kind of tech.
About drop's strenghts:
Zerg overlord :
Supply: 0
Build Time: 25 secs (fastest to build)
Hit Points: 200
Energy: 0
Movement: Slow (0.469) (Move speed: 1.88 after upgrade)
Armor: 0
This is the slowest drop ship. Fastest build time. No supply taken; Highest amount of hp, no energy --> no feedback. No armor.
Terran medivacs :
Supply: 2
Build Time: 42 secs (decent time, can be made 2 at once)
Hit Points: 150
Energy: 200
Movement: Normal (2.5) ( after booster (limited in time) 4.25)
Armor 1
This unit can heal but has low hp pool and potential high mana which make it not that good against stacked anti air and able to get feedbacked and do take 2 supply/medivacs
Protoss warp prism
Supply: 2
Build Time: 50 secs (decent build time, takes on other's robo units)
Hit Points: 100
Shields: 40
Energy: 0
Movement: Normal (with upgrade 3.38)
Armor: 0
This unit has decent hp (100+40, stronger than medivac), decent speed (faster than a non boosted medivac/orerlord), no armor, take supply (2/prism) and can then be used to warp infinity unit until stopped.
So basically we can say that the Zerg drop tech has the cheapest (arguably) drop ship, with the highest amount of HP, the same load capacity (up to 8 supply) but is rather slow.
Which mean it's not the best nor the worst drop tech, it just has its own strenghts and weakness.
You may add that after unloading, zerg can poop creep everywhere, making building impossible, and granting bonus speed to zerg's units.
All that talk to say, maybe Z drop tech needs a buff, but i'd would rather like to see it tested and used first (and for instance drop tech vs Mech play is really good, or banelings drop vs Toss...) in its current state (which is feel is already good) rahter than buffing it instant and making it almost op (i.e queens post patch).
It's more about Zergies taking risk researching and using it (i.e multitasking more) than to blizzard buffing it to make it even easier.
We've probably all seen some games (i'm thinking about TLO vs Mana today at IEM) or some of Dimaga's games (where he showcases how good was baneling drop against protoss) which tend to show that drop tech as it is is already strong, and that if zerg (dimaga/TLO are known for experimenting stuff in the Zerg race) took time to explore it, they may find it's already pretty good.
Obviously, and again, it may still need a buff or a twist. But first of all, try to use it like it is now?
(NB/: ask any Terran or protoss which faced a decent droping zerg, how hard it can be... i'm pretty sure everyone would say that's it's both strong and make the match more interesting)
(NB2: we may also think about some of TLO's strat with zerg drop + nydus followup to reinforce, which lead to incredibly one sided matches.)
Conclusion: I think that zerg drop and nydus play suffer from underuse and underconsideration rather than underpowering. Exploring and finding way to make them work would make the game both more interesting, and the zerg playstyle wider and more funny to watch and play. It'll allow some aggressive play from Z, which is what seems to be the current demand from the Z players.
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On January 19 2013 23:30 Sissors wrote:
The OP lists medivacs and warp prism as (semi-) core units of the terran/toss race, but in his list he doesnt list overlords as a core unit of the zerg race? That seems slightly biased to me.
The only way I see you can make drops better for zerg without making the current doom-drop tactics OP is forcing zerg to morph overlords into another unit for better dropship capability. But I also wonder why zerg would need drops to be as powerful as those of other races. We also dont get something similar to ling runbys, and as terran I dont have spine crawlers to defend my main against ground units. Races are different.
I want to focus on the overlord drop part a little bit.
Overlords aren't the same type of core unit that medivacs are.
Medivacs are a core fighting unit. They cost supply and you get them for the things they do. Healing, drop ability.
Warp Prisms cost supply and you get them for the ability to warpin beneath them and load units into it.
You get overlords to GET supply and nothing else. It costs 1 larva, 100 and you get 8 supply.
Using overlords for drops without proper protection(i.e. sending your whole army, doom hydra drops for example) either means that you send 3-5 EXTRA overlords, which is pretty expensive, or you send overlords you already have either way which is risky given that they're not really that fast and it's really easy to lose them vs opponents that pay attention. And you'll lose them pretty much vs every opponent not being bad.
In both cases, if you're below 200 supply you not only risk losing your drop and the army in it really easy, you also risk to supplyblock yourself HARDCORE which means you essentially lost the game.
It will always cost you a high amount of ressources, if you don't get at least the same amount of damage out of it, it's not worth it.
The decision to go for drops is really expensive and has little reward. If anything, you'll end up losing more than you're winning if you go don't go for a doom drop built to kill your opponent.
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I dont agree in overlords, since u got alot of them and with one ipgrade you get tons of drops.
But nydus is another story, it costs too much gas for a zerg, maybe the building itself should cost 150/150 and each nydus atempt 100/50, making it not as allinish, but still somewhat costly. Also Lowering the time of spawn of a nydus is dangerous, it can make it super Op, so it better stay that way and maybe buff the Hp fo the spawning worm a bit.
Also i would like to add +1 defence to every burrowed unit, it makes sense, and it may help a bit. This buff (+1def) should stay for 3 seconds after unborrowing, making some burrow traps more efective. What do u guys think? this would make zerg play much more interesting.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 19 2013 20:53 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote:
100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is. Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake! Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back. PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton. For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory. A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply. Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . . Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough. Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in. ____ Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost) 2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base. True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind. The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Summing up my original Post:
Zerg:
Lair: 150-100 (Required for Roach Speed and any other form of tech so only relevant in early all-ins)
Overlord Speed: 100-100
Overlord Drops: 200-200
Overlords: 0-0 you will have enough to drop your entire army as long as it is not pure Zerglings.
450-400 to drop as much as you want.
Terran:
Factory: 150-100
Starport: 150-100
Medivac: 100-100 2 Supply
450-300 and 2 Supply for a single Medivac to drop up to 8 units, depending on size.
Protoss:
Robotic: 200-100
Warp Prism: 200-0 2 Supply
300-100 and 2 Supply for a single Warp Prism to drop up to 4 units and Warp in.
Keep in mind that even though you can Warp in more units, you can not retreat with them, they will die, forcing you to do damage.
Zerg: 450-400 - all Overlords get Drop and Speed
Terran: 450-300 - 1 Medivac
Protoss: 300-100 - 1 Warp Prism
At least to me it does not seem like Zerg drops are that much more expensive than from the other races.
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zergies are just lazy, there are so many unexplored base trade strategies that could be employed with drops.
Also something similar like drop pick up micro could be employed.
Overlords are quite durable and every shot is damage migitated from your actual army
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OK i am getting sick of reading people's bs attempts at doing elementary maths here, I am not going to comment on all aspects of this debate, but only considering the cost, here are the correct numbers. (1st "lawyered" post was totally biased and didnt include the cost of zerg lair, and 2nd post just left out 100/50 in the cost of the zerg tech, which is a simple mistake but interestingly biased in the same way. First of all I think that including all of the previous buildings required to build, (which interestingly only happened for the terran race across 2 different "in depth analyses") Why would you include the cost of factory in this calculations, unless you were only getting the factory to get drops, which means you wouldnt build anything out of it at all period. Why not include the cost of the barracks? Dont you need that to build the starport?? You see how this is silly.... so when we look at the actual statistics what do we see.
Zerg Drops = OL Drop + OL Speed = 150/100 + 200/200 + 100/100 = 300/300 For 20 dropships.One extra thing to keep in mind however, is that if any overlords die it has the potential to supply block, which one could say that the zerg player could just build extra overlords, which is true but then the dropships are not free anymore, and cost 100 mins a pop.
Terran Drops = Starport + medivacs = 150/100 + 100/100 * n = 250/200 + 100/100 per medivac. Now an interesting thing about the terran medivac of course is........it heals your units!!! Sorry guys if it is a little more expensive then it perhaps could be solely as a dropship (like overlords) because it heals your bio and makes your drops 10x more effective.
Protoss Drops = 200/200 + 200/0 + 100/100 = 300/300 + 200 * n
Now protoss drops are pretty expensive huh... but whats this?? The warp prism can just change into a different mode and then you can warp in units that werent even on the map before directly underneath it. This is why you rarely see more than 2 warp prisms in a game. So yeah the cost looks expensive on paper, but in actuality you only need one or 2 warp prisms to do as much harass as you could possibly want to.
Conclusion, so as you can see the Terran drop tech is factually the cheapest drop tech. It also fits better into the grand scheme of things because the starport is something you are going to build in every macro game and has multiple uses (making banshees, ravens) wheras the zerg drop upgrade takes forever and has no uses other than to allow overlords to drop. I cannot believe that terran players are even bringing anything up in this discussion.... QQs like "oh medivacs costs 100/100" well then how about this, lets make it so medivacs dont heal anymore and get a speed nerf. Then i would be totally fine with them costing 100/0. Same with warp prism, lets make it not give you instapylon and then move it to the gateway with twilight council or something. The main problem IMO is that the terran and protoss dropships have these possibly gamebreaking (from a balance-adjusting perspective) extra abilities besides just dropping units.
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On January 20 2013 01:08 rEalGuapo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 19 2013 20:53 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote:
100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is. Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake! Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back. PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton. For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory. A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply. Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . . Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough. Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in. ____ Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost) 2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base. True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind. The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased. Summing up my original Post: Zerg:Overlord Speed: 100-100 Overlord Drops: 200-200 Overlords: 0-0 you will have enough to drop your entire army as long as it is not pure Zerglings. 300-300 to drop as much as you want. Terran:Factory: 150-100 Starport: 150-100 Medivac: 100-100 2 Supply 450-300 and 2 Supply for a single Medivac to drop up to 8 units, depending on size. Protoss:Robotic: 200-100 Warp Prism: 200-0 2 Supply 300-100 and 2 Supply for a single Warp Prism to drop up to 4 units and Warp in. Keep in mind that even though you can Warp in more units, you can not retreat with them, they will die, forcing you to do damage. Zerg: 300-300 - all Overlords get Drop and SpeedTerran: 450-300 - 1 MedivacProtoss: 300-100 - 1 Warp PrismAt least to me it does not seem like Zerg drops are that much more expensive than from the other races.
If you include Factory and Starport in the cost to get a Medivac, why didn´t you include Lair-tech in the costs for Overlord drop?
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Hey :-) Ofc i know that Overlords are 0 supply, and i do also know that there is other tech required which i didnt mention (starport, techlab, lair, etc.). But guys seriously, do i really have to mention that u need a starport or a lair for drops? Do i really have to mention that overlords doesnt have supply? I assumed that ure all starcraft gamers and know at least the very most important facts, so i didnt see a reason mentioning them.
I wanted to point out the important facts which not everyone knows, which is mostly movement speed and cost in my opinion. I didnt want to post in a Z favoured way, i just wanted to give you a solid base for a open minded discussion. I also didnt QQ about anything. I posted some facts, made POSSIBLE suggestions and added a poll. That being said, i also didnt mention the costs for lair or that "only" 4 supply of lings fit in one overlord. Thats not the point of the thread, and i didnt want to write a novel. I did neither mean that i personally suggest all possible suggestions. I mentioned zergs general capability to perfom multiprong attacks
So please focus on the discussion on itself instead of pointing out how "zergy" my Thread is. Instead just write your opinion (i do agree, i disagree, i agree partly), add your own personal ingame experience and your thoughts. It would be too bad if this thread will be full of offensive posts argueing what was mentioned and was not :x
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Your math is shit, you've accounted for Lair and Research but you didn't account for the factory,starport and the reactor for T, and overlords are practically cheaper anyways. Each race is not meant to have the same drop capabilities like the others, zerg's drop might be weaker but it's not weak.
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no they're not you cant move your whole 200/200 army through a medivac or warprism
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On January 20 2013 01:34 Silencioseu wrote:
Your math is shit, you've accounted for Lair and Research but you didn't account for the factory,starport and the reactor for T, and overlords are practically cheaper anyways. Each race is not meant to have the same drop capabilities like the others, zerg's drop might be weaker but it's not weak.
Dude, can you read? I didnt do ANY math, i posted out SOME facts which are important in MY opinion. That has nothing to do with math. I also didnt account the costs for lair or the other tech paths required. I thought the TL Community would appreciate a open minded discussion, instead this thread is full of flames and offensive posts. If this continues i will ask a admin for closing.
And if youre so pissed about my choice of facts, feel free to PM me EVERYTHING and i will add it to the post.
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On January 20 2013 01:40 doggy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 01:34 Silencioseu wrote:
Your math is shit, you've accounted for Lair and Research but you didn't account for the factory,starport and the reactor for T, and overlords are practically cheaper anyways. Each race is not meant to have the same drop capabilities like the others, zerg's drop might be weaker but it's not weak. Dude, can you read? I didnt do ANY math, i posted out SOME facts which are important in MY opinion. That has nothing to do with math. I also didnt account the costs for lair or the other tech paths required. I thought the TL Community would appreciate a open minded discussion, instead this thread is full of flames and offensive posts. If this continues i will ask a admin for closing. And if youre so pissed about my choice of facts, feel free to PM me EVERYTHING and i will add it to the post.
Well how the hell do you expect to compare costs if you ignore parts of the costs?!
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EPT
