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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Firstly, you completely forgot about banelings which are fantastic in drops.
I gotta say that pretty much any protoss will admit to losing a game flat out because of bane drops.
If you know zerg has the capability, you can put a cannon and a stalker at each mineral line, you can be ready to pull and split probes at a moments notice, but this is really the type of thing where a zerg can kill a third of your workers within 2 seconds if you are not fast enough, and every worker you have on the field within 3-5 seconds if you EVER tunnelvision or look away from the minimap.
Four banes cost 100/100, the overlord with speed isnt gonna die to a cannon, banes with +2 attack will oneshot probes in their entire splash radius, you cant seriously think even for a second that trading 100/100 for 40-50 of the toss's ~70 workers isnt worth it.
You cant fail, not consistently. Overlord speed and drop cost so little for what they give you and there's no way for any player to flawlessly defend every bane that runs towards or is dropped in a mineral line
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On January 21 2013 12:41 CajunMan wrote:
That sounds neat what if it could be upgraded to poop out swarms of broodlings?
I don't think Zerg needs a 4th free unit generator 
I'd be happier with it spawning broodlings upon death of the worm (not many else workers would get smacked by it - like 2-3 or something)
Edit:
If it lost it's transport ability upon the upgrade (Upgrade on the worm itself so you can have either) I guess it wouldn't be too bad though. Or a Hive tech upgrade from the canal itself would be good too, giving 2 worm options
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On January 21 2013 12:51 KnT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 12:41 CajunMan wrote:
That sounds neat what if it could be upgraded to poop out swarms of broodlings? I don't think Zerg needs a 4th free unit generator I'd be happier with it spawning broodlings upon death of the worm (not many else workers would get smacked by it - like 2-3 or something) Edit: If it lost it's transport ability upon the upgrade (Upgrade on the worm itself so you can have either) I guess it wouldn't be too bad though. Or a Hive tech upgrade from the canal itself would be good too, giving 2 worm options
Then get rid of swarm hots lol idk how serious i was just thought that was cool lol.
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On January 21 2013 12:43 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + Firstly, you completely forgot about banelings which are fantastic in drops. I gotta say that pretty much any protoss will admit to losing a game flat out because of bane drops. If you know zerg has the capability, you can put a cannon and a stalker at each mineral line, you can be ready to pull and split probes at a moments notice, but this is really the type of thing where a zerg can kill a third of your workers within 2 seconds if you are not fast enough, and every worker you have on the field within 3-5 seconds if you EVER tunnelvision or look away from the minimap. Four banes cost 100/100, the overlord with speed isnt gonna die to a cannon, banes with +2 attack will oneshot probes in their entire splash radius, you cant seriously think even for a second that trading 100/100 for 40-50 of the toss's ~70 workers isnt worth it. You cant fail, not consistently. Overlord speed and drop cost so little for what they give you and there's no way for any player to flawlessly defend every bane that runs towards or is dropped in a mineral line
Banelings cost 25/25 and a zergling which costs 25/0. Banelings are 50/25. Four Banes cost 200/100.
But yes, baneling drop is awesome. Although you won't kill 40-50 , that's exaggerating. A successful drop will kill like 20-30 (especially with +2 attack when they one-shot workers).
They are also awesome in battle, because while they can be micro'd against (basically you just kite the overlords), baneling drops deal ridiculous amounts of damage. Anything that gets banelings close to the opponent is obviously going to be awesome. Because banelings are awesome.
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Something people always neglect when comparing dropship/warp prism to overlord drops is the tech timing of the strategy. The reason getting drops is "all-in" is because it's available at the same time Zerg is required to do a massive gas dump into their mid-tier units. For all those people making the "you have overlords anyway" argument, lets not forget that medivacs and warp prisms are dual-purpose units as well. Healing makes a drop infinitely stronger especially with good positioning around the minerals, plus being able to warp in tremendously bolsters the potential damage a drop can do.
Xel'naga towers are another contributing factor for drop play being so bad imo. With so much coverage of vision it's so easy for T or P to spot the drop play coming.
I think nydus would greatly benefit from being able to cancel the worm. To compensate the nydus network should have a cooldown on when it can create a worm equal to the build time. So you cant' start one cancel and start another across the map instantly. That would be very overpowered. But letting Zerg recoup the 100/100 would help a lot. The nydus network also needs a reduced cost gas-wise. I'd rather see it cost something like 300/100 instead of 100/200 so when you make your nydus network you're essentially saying i want to build this network instead of a macro hatch instead of making the opportunity cost equal a spire or 8 roaches worth of gas.
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This whole comparing costs argument is kind of ridiculous. Sure you could splice the number of minerals and gas it costs, but that totally misses core points such as how resources need to be invested by each race at each point in the game, and how each race would be able to deal with the added abilities at that point in time.
There are three races in this game with varying strengths and weaknesses at different points in the game. Not all races should be able to drop for the same investment at each point in the game. If you want a game like that go play age of empires. Anyways, while Zerg perhaps can't afford drops in the midgame, it's an extremely effective tech in the late game if used properly. By the late game minerals are basically free for Zerg, and 300/300 can easily be recouped by 24 cracklings in your opponents main. Given the odd situation we've found wherein Zerg has the most cost effective late game army and the best reinforcing mechanics, as Terran or Todd you need your entire army engaging, and having to keep units back and getting delayed by small zergling drops can be catastrophic. So yeah I definitely voted no. The thought that zerg doesn't have counter attack potential and needs drops seems very silly to me.
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I mean, we could just as easily be talking about how expensive it is for Terran to pressure Zerg greediness in the early game due to ranged queens. Maybe by legacy of the void the Zerg race will have absorbed Protoss and Terran into their DNA and you can have a mega race will all of the strengths of each wrapped up into one, but in the meantime you should be playing some Starcraft.
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Isn't that how asymmetric balancing is supposed to work?
It weirds me out how people seem to dig comparing the cost of an unit/upgrade/whatever when ressources clearly don't have the same value to races due to expansion-mechanics and general acquisition of ressources.
Edit: I agree on the Nydus-part, though.
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I'm pretty sure this is just asymmetrical balance (as the above poster said). Medivacs are better than warp prisms which are better than overlord drops. They all have unique advantages and disadvantages, but I'm pretty sure anyone who plays the game extensively would agree medivacs are the best "dropship" style unit in the game. That is just how this shakes out, and there isn't really a problem with that.
Zerg is generally designed around sending units in and they do damage/fight and die. I think the current state of the overlord is pretty good in that regard. This is further complicated that you get overlords at the beginning, so any buff can really throw things out of whack unless you make it not available until lair or hive tech. Remember, they also get air armor to become a little tougher if that is what you want. Not really sure how they could make this better and it still be balanced. If you want stronger drop play, play terran?
Edit: I do agree nydus worms are under-used. What I'm not sure of is if they are just not good enough to use extensively, or people haven't experimented with them enough.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
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On January 21 2013 19:51 Existor wrote:Watch from 21:30 + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aIR0SoZ_4o
that was sweet...
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The problem with Nydus Worms is that it's not smooth to operate in comparison to Nydus Canal.
With overlord poop mechanic old school Nydus play would be simple and make's sense. If you want to nydus from off creep just have an Overlord poop somewhere and build a nydus canal there for 75 mins. Box select an army then right click on one nydus to pop out the other instead of load, unload like it is now.
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On January 21 2013 19:51 Existor wrote:Watch from 21:30 + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aIR0SoZ_4o
Amazing play from TLO, but referencing a point 30 minutes into a game doesn't really speak volumes as to the viability of nydus play in a general capacity.
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On January 21 2013 14:00 YumYumGranola wrote:
This whole comparing costs argument is kind of ridiculous. Sure you could splice the number of minerals and gas it costs, but that totally misses core points such as how resources need to be invested by each race at each point in the game, and how each race would be able to deal with the added abilities at that point in time.
There are three races in this game with varying strengths and weaknesses at different points in the game. Not all races should be able to drop for the same investment at each point in the game. If you want a game like that go play age of empires. Anyways, while Zerg perhaps can't afford drops in the midgame, it's an extremely effective tech in the late game if used properly. By the late game minerals are basically free for Zerg, and 300/300 can easily be recouped by 24 cracklings in your opponents main. Given the odd situation we've found wherein Zerg has the most cost effective late game army and the best reinforcing mechanics, as Terran or Todd you need your entire army engaging, and having to keep units back and getting delayed by small zergling drops can be catastrophic. So yeah I definitely voted no. The thought that zerg doesn't have counter attack potential and needs drops seems very silly to me.
I know that you cant directly compare the costs. Still i had to mention some stats and stuff because of the forum guidelines. I did make a thread before without stats which got closed. So please dont focus so much on the statscomparison, but try to think about the fact that both - P/T drops got strong buff recently and Z not. 1.88 is just really slow, maybe already a slight speed adjustment would seal the deal (or lowering the costs a little bit to make it more viable in midgame without being forced to heavily commit to aggression). 1.88 was okay imo BEFORE T/P drops got a speedbuff.
I think about the nydus part, almost all people do agree hat blizzard really has to do something to fix that. Maybe just fixing nydus would solve both issues because nydus and drops do more or less the same thing besides in some rare situations (e.g. reinforcing with nydus is better than with overlords).
Btw this goes a little bit off-topic. Still i cannot NOT write a statement about the reinforcing part you mentioned. I personally feel like P has the very best reinforcing possibilities in super lategame, because of the warp-in mechanics (i dont wanna claim that that would be OP or sth, i just wanna mention it). This goes also for drops. While Z has to move his supply in slowlords and fly it around the map, P is able to warp in (and spend supply) when the warp prism is already in the base of zerg. Thats a very important point imo, its a little bit of a risk on large maps to sink supply for such a long time in overlords, also if its just cracklings. This also is important for the midgame. If you wanna go for midgame drop pressure (without allinning) and u suddenly have to defend a push you can theoretically be screwed if youre very unlucky in your drop timing, With a little bit more speed OR a little lower cost that issue wouldnt be that much of a deal
I also disagree completly that Z has the most powerful lategame army (and thats okay because of design, i dont want symmetric balance, im just mentioning it). Do you even play HotS? We're not in broodlord-infestor WoL times here and by reading your post i get the strong feeling that you have no to very little hots experience which you speak of, otherwise i dont understand what you meant
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On January 21 2013 07:03 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 05:16 ineversmile wrote:
The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms. I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL...
I don't think it's ridiculous at all. It's easier to just use one big army on 1-2 control groups than it is to execute a drop while using said army. It's easier to not get a Nydus and set up reinforcements, than it is to get that Nydus and set up reinforcements. It's easier to just complain about needing all the gas in the world, than to spend 300 on it to make every zerg farm a dropship.
It's always easier to do the simple thing than to do the more complicated thing.
And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play?
You have a valid point here, but if the Nydus Worm bonus is an HP buff, then doesn't it have to be compensated by having a slower build time or a slower tech path? How do you expect someone to defend Nydus play, when they spot it, if the HP goes up significantly? It's not like a normal drop, where there's only a limited number of slots--and therefore a reinforce rally/warpin can handle business. A Nydus Worm can send in the entire zerg army if it gets up.
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On January 22 2013 18:16 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 07:03 sagefreke wrote:On January 21 2013 05:16 ineversmile wrote:
The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms. I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL... I don't think it's ridiculous at all. It's easier to just use one big army on 1-2 control groups than it is to execute a drop while using said army. It's easier to not get a Nydus and set up reinforcements, than it is to get that Nydus and set up reinforcements. It's easier to just complain about needing all the gas in the world, than to spend 300 on it to make every zerg farm a dropship. It's always easier to do the simple thing than to do the more complicated thing. Show nested quote +And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play? You have a valid point here, but if the Nydus Worm bonus is an HP buff, then doesn't it have to be compensated by having a slower build time or a slower tech path? How do you expect someone to defend Nydus play, when they spot it, if the HP goes up significantly? It's not like a normal drop, where there's only a limited number of slots--and therefore a reinforce rally/warpin can handle business. A Nydus Worm can send in the entire zerg army if it gets up.
Regards Nydusplay you mentioned: I dont think its about "What is easier to play". Pro players have about an average APM of 300, there is no reason for them for playing easy strats. Its just a ruge risk. 300 gas for MAYBE getting a nydus up and use out of it? Why shouldnt u get 2 infestors more, or a few upgrades or T3 tech? That all is much less of a risk and sure to be worth it. Nydus is not. And regrads reinforcing. Reinforcing isnt really that much faster with nydus due the slow load time. So most people prefer solid creep spread to reinforce (which is a lot harder to do compared to spawning a nydus)
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I think that the problem with buffing the Zerg's drop/ Nydus play is that since Zerg can reproduce their armies so quickly, death-drops (dropping an entire army) can be game ending for Protoss and Terran because they can trade their army for not only at least a good portion of their opponents army, but also for a lot of buildings/tech/economy as well, and then already have another army ready to defend on creep when the enemy comes back for what will probably be their last counterattack.
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On January 22 2013 18:53 cohen5250 wrote:
I think that the problem with buffing the Zerg's drop/ Nydus play is that since Zerg can reproduce their armies so quickly, death-drops (dropping an entire army) can be game ending for Protoss and Terran because they can trade their army for not only at least a good portion of their opponents army, but also for a lot of buildings/tech/economy as well, and then already have another army ready to defend on creep when the enemy comes back for what will probably be their last counterattack.
I agree, I feel like Blizzard not attempting to promote nydus through a buff is acknowledgement enough of its "all or nothing" gameplay. Imagine the warp prism was over-buffed, say 300/300 health/shields. It would be overpowered but not game shattering. Overbuffing nydus whether it be shorter build time, more health, armor, faster load/unload, etc. would be game shattering. It's too bad Blizzard didn't play with something in the HotS beta where tournaments/careers aren't at stake in case it's too broken.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
One thing I don't understand is generally I've noticed zerg players complain about far away expansions, even on something like Antiga.
Why not just nydus to defend your drones there? Hatcheries are kind of expendable.
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One of the main reasons you often don't see zergs opt for these tech paths, is because if zerg invests their resources into this tech, and protoss defends against the drop or nydus, then they will simply attack you at about 200 supply and it is nearly impossible to defend. I fear that they are making drop/nydus even less viable in HOTS, because the mothership core's defensive abilities will make drop and nydus strategies even harder to pull off vs competent opponents.
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