Update: I did add some more stats to calm some of you down. Furthermore im not gonna add the costs for the techpaths, it would make the thread even more confusing than it already is, because you can really argue what belongs to the tech path and what not (a lair is build in 99% of all games, as well as starports and robos)
Hi, i wanted to discuss with you the current state of nydus-/dropplay and the ability to perfom multiprong attacks and pressure from zerg. We saw the warpprism getting buffed in WoL, and a few weeks ago the medivacs got a buff in HotS. Blizzard wants to encourage multiprong attacks and dropplay in HotS. It just seems to me, like they forgot about zerg. Z is forced to defend in so many parts in the game without being able to put some pressure back on T/P. In the early - midgame you can use lingrunbys, burrowed roaches or even mutas which are quite strong. However, the later the game goes, the weaker will the lingrunbys get due to strong building placement, warp-in, sensor towers and cannons. Same for mutas, as soon as your opponent has a counter for them OR good ground upgrades they will be less and less effective. Roaches are way too supplyintensive to build them into a lategame army, so you cant afford building them (in a huge number) when it goes to the lategame.
Before we start a discussion or make suggestions, lets have a closer look at some stats compared to the other two races (not included: cost for techpaths):
Zerg Drop: Cost 100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300 Move speed: 1.88 Supply Cost: 0 Build Time: 25s Hit Points: 200 Overlord Cost: 100/0 (you need additional overlords when u go for drops, otherwise u get supply blocked heavily) Note: Overlords can also be used (especially with speed upgrade) for scouting, denying expansions and map control. Overlords do also grant supply (i cant believe that i have to write this here) Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus Note: Cannot be cancled if gets spotted
Terran Drop: Cost 100/100 for each medivac Move speed: 2.5 Move speed with Ingnite Afterburner(Spell with duration and short cooldown): 4.25 Supply Cost: 2 Build Time: 42s (with reactor 2 can be made at once) Hit Points: 150 Note: Medivacs are a coreunit of the terran army, which is really important in all games where biounits are used, so the costs arent "just" for drops.
Protoss Warp Prism: Cost 200/0 Move speed: 2.5 Supply Cost: 2 Hit Points: 100 (+40 Shield) Move speed with Gravitic Drive (100/100): 3.38 Note: Warp Prisms are maybe not a core unit, but still quite important for pushing to reinforce and save/micro coreunits.
[My personal opinion: People make threads claiming zerg has no weapons - we should rather say Z has weapons, but theyre everything but effective. To invest so much in nydus/drops in midgame we are almost forced to allin or at least do a ton of damage, in the lategame we still have the problem that the movement speed is just 1.88 which really seems to be a bad joke for me, especially after T/P drops both received a speed buff. Furthermore, zerg was always considered as the "mobile race", which makes that issue even more a concern for me. Encouraging Z drop or nydus play wouldnt just buff zerg, it would make the game much more interesting and back and forth, for the players as well as the spectators. Any developement which goes away from the "get a deathball and steamroll" is good for the game itself in my opinion.]
Possible suggestions: - Buff the overlord speed gained by speedupgrade slightly - Lower the costs maybe a little bit (its okay if its expensive, because we dont have to build any dropships, we always have a lot of overlords which we can use) - Lower the costs of nydus drasticly or do a complete rework on it, nydus play was a fail since WoL. It never has been effective. Lowering the costs or just make it possible to cancle the nydus when u try to build one and it gets spotted would give Z great abilities to defend and pressure at the same time.
Blizzard initially said that they intended to implement in HotS a new type of Nydus Worm, do you know if they have changed their plans regarding this?
I think a big problem for zerg is the loading time of the Nydus Worm, it takes way too long. Therefore, you can rarely fall back from a Nydus attack with your army...
100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
I don't see it to be to expensive because drop play wrecks mech, with a muta follow up it looks absolutely insane. The problem with dropplay/nydus worm is the effectiveness it already has in some games which shouldn't be buffed in my opinion.
The problem is still that drop/nydusplay is considered rare and obscure since its very gas intensive + withthe new widowmine its not really an option vs mech, Its not about killing armies its about having more harass/multitask options mid/earlygame for zerg as currently dropping 300 gas on something like that isnt a good idea, they should remove the gas cost.
The problem is that multiprong pressure is viable to the other races WHILE increasing the effectiveness of the mainarmy. Zerg has to sink tons of gas, for that upgrades and the ability to keep up in terms of units in lategame.Thats the same with going mutas, or even drop into mutas. How will you ever afford 3-3 upgrades + a T3 army? You would need like 12 gases for that, which is more than unlikely to happen
Regards the nydus rework. Blizzard tends to forget what they say ;-) I just see the release getting closer and closer, so its very unlikely for me that they make big changes. They have or rather want to work on the finetuning before the release
If anyone's looking for a few examples of Nydus play in HoTS vs protoss husky recently a game between TLO and WhiteRa. I personally can't comment on if it's to weak or strong as I'm not playing HoTS.
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake!
Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back.
PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton.
For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory.
A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply.
Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . .
Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough.
Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in.
____
Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.
You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost)
2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base.
True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind.
The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Lowering the costs for Overlord drop would be a good idea I guess. I also feel that it is too hard to sneak in the upgrade in a "standard" macro game since ti costs so much money in the midgame and isn't that usefull later on. This is why it is only exclusively used in special scenarios. Actually we only see it used in ZvT vs mech.
On the other hand, I don't feel like we're going to see multipronged drop harrasment by Zerg even if drop and Overlord speed were really cheap. The question is: why units are you gonna harass with? Roaches take up too much supply and Lings don't do enough damage to be worth it. Baneling drops can easily be countered by simply puilling the drones. Then they're useless. It's not like with bio drops where you can at least still snipe tech buildings. You need to make a lot of units to make drop work which in turn slows down your entire tech path and late game transition, and it requires you to do damage to not fall behind too much.
On the whole I don't relly think Zerg needs to have too many harrassment potential. It's just doesn't fit too much in the design of the race. Zerg is good at expanding quickly, gaining map control, macroing like crazy and defending all of its bases against harassment. It's not that harrassing on your own has to play too much of a role in that.
since overlords are free dropships ( their real purpose being supply) they don't deserve to be as good as prisms or medivacs. maybe they could use some slight buffing anyway, dont know
but the nydus. it's a nightmare imo.
building time concern: since it's very slow, easily scouted and easy to kill, you need to open your nyduses far from danger - this is lame and not so useful. As a base to base transport system, it is too expensive and inefficient;
Loading time: getting stuff in and out of the network, especially lings, takes forever. in comparison to P/T drops, p usually goes with just one prism, unloading 4 cycles of zealot/sentry/ht and then warping in another round. T has at the most 8 cycles to drop if only dropping marines, which doesnt change with the amount of medivacs. In that time z gets out 4-8 lings. That is fucking awful. the nydus network is a nice and zergy way of playing "drop" so it really needs some attention imo. first out, let it deploy 4 supply per cycle, not 1 unit.
On January 19 2013 21:47 Phantom_Sky wrote: seems that TLO replied to this post with the game from Katowice - Drop is fine
Sorry but, are you serious..? Just because there is one pro player which likes to use ability XY doesnt mean that it is fine in general. If he thinks drops are fine he can post here and explain his opinion. For sure there are some builds which use nydus/drops. Still, almost every game with P or T is with Warpprism/Drop harass, compare it to how many games you see where Z does nydus or drops, that is in no relation at all.
Personally I do not think that there is any problem with drops, since every overlord you get for supply can be used for drops so lowering the cost can just open up absurd timings.
The nydus I think should be reworked and so it could be used as an defensively to a greater extent. It should unload 6 food at the time,same cooldown as before. That way it can unload low supply units ,e.g., zerglings, faster and still unload ultras at same speed. You could compensate this with the requirement that it must be placed on creep, and last but not least remove that sound effect. If a protoss player warps in a pylon in my main I do not get a telling card when it is finished.
On January 19 2013 22:13 Elldar wrote: The nydus I think should be reworked and so it could be used as an defensively to a greater extent. It should unload 6 food at the time,same cooldown as before. That way it can unload low supply units ,e.g., zerglings, faster and still unload ultras at same speed. You could compensate this with the requirement that it must be placed on creep, and last but not least remove that sound effect. If a protoss player warps in a pylon in my main I do not get a telling card when it is finished.
I personally would love the nydus being used defensively, it would add a create dynamic to the game and it would compensate the harass-buffs the other races got. Still there would be an issue with the costs i think
This kind of logic is not viable in starcraft. Its 3 different races and very different sorts of dropplay, There is a ton of difference between medivac marine drops, warp prism 4 x sentry drops and the zerg massive 40x baneling in your supply (overlords who are also "dropships".
Also would you really seriously argue that zerg has weak mobility? Because that is what drops are. Dropplay is usually counterattacks, mobility etc. etc.
Different race. Different stats. Different playstyle.
Ovi speed should be a standard upgrade, Zergs really hurting themself by only researching it for drop and giving it away so easy. That being said Slow drops work in some situation. On the other I get Speed regularly and fake drops. But the advantage of Overlords are that they are no supply and you have them anyway making it the cheapest mass drop ability available and the cost can't be reduced, it is pretty nice that you can research drop and speed at hatch though if you have a lair. I don't think there can be anything made different without breaking the midgame.
Nydus on the other hand. I think they should cut the price by a fair chunk on the Network. If it is to strong they should move it to hydra den to make it slower (or increase the cost of the Worm) We basically have 2 Nydus buildings atm. Network that needs creep has more hp and builds longer. This also creates the Worm for offensive use. Imo it is really no problem to reduce the unload time on the Network. That would allow to make use of it in a defensive manner. And it would not make the Worm stronger.
But I think people should still be punished for just right-clicking a nydus and not entering in the correct order. (just right clicking it will stuff it with lings units that shouldn't leave it first on the other side hehe) So I am a bit against this unloads 6 supply at a time.
Nydus can be used not only for drops, but also as very good reinforcment base for your Queens and Swarm Hosts in middle game. Just spawn Nydus at enemy Xel'naga tower, spread creep and send Locusts to 2nd or 3rd base, at same time adding more swarm hosts via Nydus.
Zerg Drop: Cost 100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300 Move speed: 1.88 Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus
Terran Drop: Cost 100/100 for each medivac Move speed: 2.5 Move speed with Ingnite Afterburner: 4.25 Note: Medivacs are a coreunit of the terran army, which is really important in all games where biounits are used, so the costs arent "just" for drops.
Protoss Warp Prism: Cost 200/0 Move speed: 2.5 Move speed with Gravitic Drive (100/100): 3.38 Note: Warp Prisms are maybe not a core unit, but still quite important for pushing to reinforce and save/micro coreunits.
Lets actually be unbiased here.
Zerg Drop: Cost 100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300 Move speed: 1.88 Note: For 300 / 300 Zerg is able to transform all their supply into dropships. Every further dropship costs half of what a Warpprism costs. Overlords are a coreunit of the Zerg army - giving zerg one expensive dropships, but many cheap ones.
Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus Note: Nydus canals are a Warp mechanic. They let you instantly reeinforce from one side of the map to the other side. This is, in theory multiple times stronger than any drop mechanic.
Im not saying its perfect the way it is, but zerg also has upsides
Nydus play isn't too weak neither are overlord drops it's just undiscovered and unstandard such simple things I don't understand why they aren't done with Nyduses, maybe it'll become standard in a long time like (Queens? against mech in brood war)
if you placed a Nydus at each base and rallied into it you could essentially use it as a reinforcing point in engagements kind of light a proxy pylon but not if you know what I mean, instead we prefer to have reinforcements run all over the map Using it to transfer drones and other things like that
The OP lists medivacs and warp prism as (semi-) core units of the terran/toss race, but in his list he doesnt list overlords as a core unit of the zerg race? That seems slightly biased to me.
The only way I see you can make drops better for zerg without making the current doom-drop tactics OP is forcing zerg to morph overlords into another unit for better dropship capability. But I also wonder why zerg would need drops to be as powerful as those of other races. We also dont get something similar to ling runbys, and as terran I dont have spine crawlers to defend my main against ground units. Races are different.
Regarding the nydus, it does see uses, and I would think it is very hard to boost it without making it overpowered. If zerg has a reasonable chance to get their army into the main base of the opponent simply with a nydus they will pretty much always win. Then for sure I can never move out, since when you move out the nydus comes, destroys your base, and the units are back in time to defend.
When I contain a zerg and they do try nydus, they often only try it in my main/natural/third. While they really dont need to get directly into my main, just outside my natural would do fine too. Because the nydus is two-way it is a good unit to move your army around. We see it in HotS also used quite often with queens and swarm hosts. However since besides them the zerg army is so freakishly fast, there generally is not much reason to use them. That has little to do with the nydus worm, and more with the speed of the zerg army.
What you could do is make a nydus exit stronger and faster (unloading) the longer it exists, so it is better for moving around without making them capable of getting entire army really in 2 seconds in your main. With the current way of nydus worm you really cant boost that without making the game far too binary: you fail to kill nydus, you lose (while that is partially true now, generally you wont fail to kill the nydus).
Or you should do their initial idea, different nydus types. I could imagine a stronger/faster unloading type, which can only be made on creep, so only to move your army around, not to attack. And something that can spit out a bunch of units fast, and is stronger than normal one, but at the same time which is a suicide nydus. So you cannot kill it with a bunch of workers, and when it is finished it can throw out something like 10 roaches, but then the nydus also immediatly retracts again, so no way back (unless you can defend it long enough with those roaches to get a normal nydus in place), and no further reinforcements.
You're opponent has a bunch of bases and is forced to spread his defenses thin.
You have slow units that need to be ferried quickly from place to place in order to deal decent damage.
Zerg has neither of these ever happening for him.
Zerg always has more bases, and it's easier to burrow move infestors than to do drop play with them. You could do drops with hydras but rarely do Zerg go hydra so it never really happens.
When you're already faster then everyone and have more bases than everyone--drop play does not help you.
On January 19 2013 23:31 Thieving Magpie wrote: Drop play is good only during two circumstances.
You're opponent has a bunch of bases and is forced to spread his defenses thin.
You have slow units that need to be ferried quickly from place to place in order to deal decent damage.
Zerg has neither of these ever happening for him.
Zerg always has more bases, and it's easier to burrow move infestors than to do drop play with them. You could do drops with hydras but rarely do Zerg go hydra so it never really happens.
When you're already faster then everyone and have more bases than everyone--drop play does not help you.
Well, drop play can benefit zerg with a big ground army ,i.e., roach/hydra and force the opponent to the back of his main base while you attack somewhere else with your core army. Same logic as for marine/marauder drops versus zerg. Besides with big ground armies the so called doomdropping can be strong aswell. The more mobile ling/muta/bane drops is not necessary since muta fill both roles, to draw units back to the opponent base and pushing
On January 19 2013 23:31 Thieving Magpie wrote: Drop play is good only during two circumstances.
You're opponent has a bunch of bases and is forced to spread his defenses thin.
You have slow units that need to be ferried quickly from place to place in order to deal decent damage.
Zerg has neither of these ever happening for him.
Zerg always has more bases, and it's easier to burrow move infestors than to do drop play with them. You could do drops with hydras but rarely do Zerg go hydra so it never really happens.
When you're already faster then everyone and have more bases than everyone--drop play does not help you.
you forget playing against mech and to say only 2 circumstances is ignorant to the other situations
I would like to see the Nydus to get an Upgrade to load in units faster to retreat and strike again at another place. A speed load in Nydus would make Zerg really mobile as it is called. In my opinion the two really mobile units are Zerglins and Mutas, which allows you to strike at multiple places and then retreat without losing too much of your Army. And with Roach Hydra coming back into the game in HotS I can see Player using this to build a nydus behind their army, striking the third and retreat.
The thing about Terran drops is that it is an viable option while playing standard bio with medivacs. You dont have to spend minerals and gas for something which you never use, because your opponent fortifed himself in his base. You can drop, but you dont have to because your Dropship can heal your Units. and in the most scenarios, that's worthier than dropping in the Base.
In addition to that Marines have extremely good DPS, are ranged and get healed from their dropship, what that makes the Drop defense more difficult. Zerglings in the other hand get blocked by buildings and shot by stalkers, Sentry,, Immortals Collossi, Marines, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, often without the option to get even near the defending army. Roaches dont do enough Damage and need 2 Slots in an Overlord, but can take a lot damage. But losing a whole Army in an Drop Attemp leaves you defenseless against the counter push. Hydras Cost too much and get killed pretty easily for their sick DPS.
Moreover Overlord drop don't give you the option to get your Units out of the dangezone unlike Medivacs with Ignite Afterburner, Mass recall or Speed Warprisms.
Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus Note: Nydus canals are a Warp mechanic. They let you instantly reeinforce from one side of the map to the other side. This is, in theory multiple times stronger than any drop mechanic.
I agree but the most players rather spend that Gas in Units than in Tech, which can overwhelm an opponent. That's worth a Spire and one level 1 Upgrade. I would like to see an cost reduction, because leaving your Nydus Head behind results in an definite loss of Ressources.
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake!
Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back.
PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton.
For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory.
A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply.
Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . .
Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough.
Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in.
____
Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.
You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost)
2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base.
True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind.
The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Lawyered!! Seriously OP, you ignore this comment and did not reply to it, I want to see you come up with a valid answer to this, but I doubt you have since this whole post stinks of bias and whining.
On January 19 2013 23:31 Thieving Magpie wrote: Drop play is good only during two circumstances.
You're opponent has a bunch of bases and is forced to spread his defenses thin.
You have slow units that need to be ferried quickly from place to place in order to deal decent damage.
Zerg has neither of these ever happening for him.
Zerg always has more bases, and it's easier to burrow move infestors than to do drop play with them. You could do drops with hydras but rarely do Zerg go hydra so it never really happens.
When you're already faster then everyone and have more bases than everyone--drop play does not help you.
you forget playing against mech and to say only 2 circumstances is ignorant to the other situations
Actually, with mech, what's important is counterattacks, not drops. Drops is a form of counterattack, but slid runbys. I guess you could count "drops are good when enemy base is empty" but at that point even a zealot runby would be effective.
If your opponent has less bases, he's turtling so you can drop since he has his army already defending. If your army is already faster than his--why drop when you can simply send your entire army where his army isn't and then run away. These philosophies hold true no matter what the race.
If your opponent is spread thin--drops work. If you are slower the. Your opponent, drops work. When you're at neither situation, drops simply parses your army for zero strategic gain.
Before we start a discussion or make suggestions, lets have a closer look at the stats compared to the other two races:
Zerg Drop: Cost 100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300 Move speed: 1.88 Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus
Terran Drop: Cost 100/100 for each medivac Move speed: 2.5 Move speed with Ingnite Afterburner: 4.25 Note: Medivacs are a coreunit of the terran army, which is really important in all games where biounits are used, so the costs arent "just" for drops.
Protoss Warp Prism: Cost 200/0 Move speed: 2.5 Move speed with Gravitic Drive (100/100): 3.38 Note: Warp Prisms are maybe not a core unit, but still quite important for pushing to reinforce and save/micro coreunits.
So, we see that the zerg drops are most expensive while being very slow and weak compared to the options the other two races have. People make threads claiming zerg has no weapons - we should rather say Z has weapons, but theyre everything but effective. To invest so much in nydus/drops in midgame we are almost forced to allin or at least do a ton of damage, in the lategame we still have the problem that the movement speed is just 1.88 which really seems to be a bad joke for me. Furthermore, zerg was always considered as the "mobile race", which makes that issue even more a concern for me. Encouraging Z drop play wouldnt just buff zerg, it would make the game much more interesting and back and forth, for the players as well as the spectators. Any developement which goes away from the "get a deathball and steamroll" is good for the game itself in my opinion.
Possible suggestions: - Buff the overlord speed gained by speedupgrade by X.XX or give Z a Ignite Burner-like ability - Lower the costs maybe a little bit (its okay if its expensive, because we dont have to build any dropships, we always have a lot of overlords which we can use) - Lower the costs of nydus drasticly, nydus play was a fail since WoL. It never has been effective. Lowering the costs or just make it possible to cancle the nydus when u try to build one and it gets spotted would give Z great abilities to defend and pressure at the same time.
Hi there,
I think that zerg nydus/drop play is entertaining and underrated, so i really enjoy thread wanting to promote it. Sadly, i'm not sure you're doing it right, simply because your statement arent really objective, neither true...
Let's first talk about the cost you explained.
Zerg drop tech requires:
lair (150/150) drop reasearch (100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300) overlord = irrelevant since you use them for supply. = 0 (ish, that may be discuted) supply 0
total : 350/350 for about 20 overlords drop (since everysingle overlord become a potential drop ship) and cost 0 supply
Terran drop tech requires :
Factorie (150/100) Starport (150/100/starport) (+ addon eventually 50/50) = 150/100 or 200/150 medivacs : 100/100 x N medivacs supply : 2/medivac
total : grand total (including factory, which may be discussed) : 350/250 (buildings) + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs
lower total (no factory, no addon) 150/100 + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs
In the grand total case, terran drop tech is more expensive by a large margin + takes supply. Ofc medivacs do more than just droping (healing bio units) but i'm just talking about drop tech.
Protoss "drop" tech (drop is between " " because of the ability to warp in reinforcement which make is quite strong, and more useful than a regular drop)
total : 400/200 (+100/100 for upgrade) x N warp prism + 2 supply x N warp prism.
Protoss tech is arguably a tiny bit more expensive than Zerg tech.
So basically my point is (and it can be discussed) Zerg drop tech is not AS expensive as ppl may think. It's more an "i dont need to drop" or "i dont have the time to research it" or "i dont think about it" kind of tech.
About drop's strenghts:
Zerg overlord :
Supply: 0 Build Time: 25 secs (fastest to build)
Hit Points: 200 Energy: 0
Movement: Slow (0.469) (Move speed: 1.88 after upgrade) Armor: 0
This is the slowest drop ship. Fastest build time. No supply taken; Highest amount of hp, no energy --> no feedback. No armor.
Terran medivacs :
Supply: 2 Build Time: 42 secs (decent time, can be made 2 at once)
Hit Points: 150 Energy: 200
Movement: Normal (2.5) ( after booster (limited in time) 4.25) Armor 1
This unit can heal but has low hp pool and potential high mana which make it not that good against stacked anti air and able to get feedbacked and do take 2 supply/medivacs
Protoss warp prism
Supply: 2 Build Time: 50 secs (decent build time, takes on other's robo units)
Hit Points: 100 Shields: 40
Energy: 0
Movement: Normal (with upgrade 3.38) Armor: 0
This unit has decent hp (100+40, stronger than medivac), decent speed (faster than a non boosted medivac/orerlord), no armor, take supply (2/prism) and can then be used to warp infinity unit until stopped.
So basically we can say that the Zerg drop tech has the cheapest (arguably) drop ship, with the highest amount of HP, the same load capacity (up to 8 supply) but is rather slow. Which mean it's not the best nor the worst drop tech, it just has its own strenghts and weakness. You may add that after unloading, zerg can poop creep everywhere, making building impossible, and granting bonus speed to zerg's units.
All that talk to say, maybe Z drop tech needs a buff, but i'd would rather like to see it tested and used first (and for instance drop tech vs Mech play is really good, or banelings drop vs Toss...) in its current state (which is feel is already good) rahter than buffing it instant and making it almost op (i.e queens post patch).
It's more about Zergies taking risk researching and using it (i.e multitasking more) than to blizzard buffing it to make it even easier.
We've probably all seen some games (i'm thinking about TLO vs Mana today at IEM) or some of Dimaga's games (where he showcases how good was baneling drop against protoss) which tend to show that drop tech as it is is already strong, and that if zerg (dimaga/TLO are known for experimenting stuff in the Zerg race) took time to explore it, they may find it's already pretty good. Obviously, and again, it may still need a buff or a twist. But first of all, try to use it like it is now?
(NB/: ask any Terran or protoss which faced a decent droping zerg, how hard it can be... i'm pretty sure everyone would say that's it's both strong and make the match more interesting)
(NB2: we may also think about some of TLO's strat with zerg drop + nydus followup to reinforce, which lead to incredibly one sided matches.)
Conclusion: I think that zerg drop and nydus play suffer from underuse and underconsideration rather than underpowering. Exploring and finding way to make them work would make the game both more interesting, and the zerg playstyle wider and more funny to watch and play. It'll allow some aggressive play from Z, which is what seems to be the current demand from the Z players.
On January 19 2013 23:30 Sissors wrote: The OP lists medivacs and warp prism as (semi-) core units of the terran/toss race, but in his list he doesnt list overlords as a core unit of the zerg race? That seems slightly biased to me.
The only way I see you can make drops better for zerg without making the current doom-drop tactics OP is forcing zerg to morph overlords into another unit for better dropship capability. But I also wonder why zerg would need drops to be as powerful as those of other races. We also dont get something similar to ling runbys, and as terran I dont have spine crawlers to defend my main against ground units. Races are different.
I want to focus on the overlord drop part a little bit.
Overlords aren't the same type of core unit that medivacs are. Medivacs are a core fighting unit. They cost supply and you get them for the things they do. Healing, drop ability. Warp Prisms cost supply and you get them for the ability to warpin beneath them and load units into it. You get overlords to GET supply and nothing else. It costs 1 larva, 100 and you get 8 supply.
Using overlords for drops without proper protection(i.e. sending your whole army, doom hydra drops for example) either means that you send 3-5 EXTRA overlords, which is pretty expensive, or you send overlords you already have either way which is risky given that they're not really that fast and it's really easy to lose them vs opponents that pay attention. And you'll lose them pretty much vs every opponent not being bad. In both cases, if you're below 200 supply you not only risk losing your drop and the army in it really easy, you also risk to supplyblock yourself HARDCORE which means you essentially lost the game. It will always cost you a high amount of ressources, if you don't get at least the same amount of damage out of it, it's not worth it.
The decision to go for drops is really expensive and has little reward. If anything, you'll end up losing more than you're winning if you go don't go for a doom drop built to kill your opponent.
I dont agree in overlords, since u got alot of them and with one ipgrade you get tons of drops. But nydus is another story, it costs too much gas for a zerg, maybe the building itself should cost 150/150 and each nydus atempt 100/50, making it not as allinish, but still somewhat costly. Also Lowering the time of spawn of a nydus is dangerous, it can make it super Op, so it better stay that way and maybe buff the Hp fo the spawning worm a bit.
Also i would like to add +1 defence to every burrowed unit, it makes sense, and it may help a bit. This buff (+1def) should stay for 3 seconds after unborrowing, making some burrow traps more efective. What do u guys think? this would make zerg play much more interesting.
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake!
Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back.
PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton.
For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory.
A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply.
Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . .
Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough.
Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in.
____
Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.
You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost)
2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base.
True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind.
The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Summing up my original Post:
Zerg: Lair: 150-100 (Required for Roach Speed and any other form of tech so only relevant in early all-ins) Overlord Speed: 100-100 Overlord Drops: 200-200 Overlords: 0-0 you will have enough to drop your entire army as long as it is not pure Zerglings. 450-400 to drop as much as you want.
Terran: Factory: 150-100 Starport: 150-100 Medivac: 100-100 2 Supply 450-300 and 2 Supply for a single Medivac to drop up to 8 units, depending on size.
Protoss: Robotic: 200-100 Warp Prism: 200-0 2 Supply 300-100 and 2 Supply for a single Warp Prism to drop up to 4 units and Warp in. Keep in mind that even though you can Warp in more units, you can not retreat with them, they will die, forcing you to do damage.
Zerg: 450-400 - all Overlords get Drop and Speed Terran: 450-300 - 1 Medivac Protoss: 300-100 - 1 Warp Prism
At least to me it does not seem like Zerg drops are that much more expensive than from the other races.
zergies are just lazy, there are so many unexplored base trade strategies that could be employed with drops. Also something similar like drop pick up micro could be employed.
Overlords are quite durable and every shot is damage migitated from your actual army
OK i am getting sick of reading people's bs attempts at doing elementary maths here, I am not going to comment on all aspects of this debate, but only considering the cost, here are the correct numbers. (1st "lawyered" post was totally biased and didnt include the cost of zerg lair, and 2nd post just left out 100/50 in the cost of the zerg tech, which is a simple mistake but interestingly biased in the same way. First of all I think that including all of the previous buildings required to build, (which interestingly only happened for the terran race across 2 different "in depth analyses") Why would you include the cost of factory in this calculations, unless you were only getting the factory to get drops, which means you wouldnt build anything out of it at all period. Why not include the cost of the barracks? Dont you need that to build the starport?? You see how this is silly.... so when we look at the actual statistics what do we see.
Zerg Drops = OL Drop + OL Speed = 150/100 + 200/200 + 100/100 = 300/300 For 20 dropships.One extra thing to keep in mind however, is that if any overlords die it has the potential to supply block, which one could say that the zerg player could just build extra overlords, which is true but then the dropships are not free anymore, and cost 100 mins a pop.
Terran Drops = Starport + medivacs = 150/100 + 100/100 * n = 250/200 + 100/100 per medivac. Now an interesting thing about the terran medivac of course is........it heals your units!!! Sorry guys if it is a little more expensive then it perhaps could be solely as a dropship (like overlords) because it heals your bio and makes your drops 10x more effective.
Protoss Drops = 200/200 + 200/0 + 100/100 = 300/300 + 200 * n Now protoss drops are pretty expensive huh... but whats this?? The warp prism can just change into a different mode and then you can warp in units that werent even on the map before directly underneath it. This is why you rarely see more than 2 warp prisms in a game. So yeah the cost looks expensive on paper, but in actuality you only need one or 2 warp prisms to do as much harass as you could possibly want to.
Conclusion, so as you can see the Terran drop tech is factually the cheapest drop tech. It also fits better into the grand scheme of things because the starport is something you are going to build in every macro game and has multiple uses (making banshees, ravens) wheras the zerg drop upgrade takes forever and has no uses other than to allow overlords to drop. I cannot believe that terran players are even bringing anything up in this discussion.... QQs like "oh medivacs costs 100/100" well then how about this, lets make it so medivacs dont heal anymore and get a speed nerf. Then i would be totally fine with them costing 100/0. Same with warp prism, lets make it not give you instapylon and then move it to the gateway with twilight council or something. The main problem IMO is that the terran and protoss dropships have these possibly gamebreaking (from a balance-adjusting perspective) extra abilities besides just dropping units.
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake!
Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back.
PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton.
For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory.
A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply.
Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . .
Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough.
Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in.
____
Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.
You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost)
2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base.
True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind.
The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Summing up my original Post:
Zerg: Overlord Speed: 100-100 Overlord Drops: 200-200 Overlords: 0-0 you will have enough to drop your entire army as long as it is not pure Zerglings. 300-300 to drop as much as you want.
Terran: Factory: 150-100 Starport: 150-100 Medivac: 100-100 2 Supply 450-300 and 2 Supply for a single Medivac to drop up to 8 units, depending on size.
Protoss: Robotic: 200-100 Warp Prism: 200-0 2 Supply 300-100 and 2 Supply for a single Warp Prism to drop up to 4 units and Warp in. Keep in mind that even though you can Warp in more units, you can not retreat with them, they will die, forcing you to do damage.
Zerg: 300-300 - all Overlords get Drop and Speed Terran: 450-300 - 1 Medivac Protoss: 300-100 - 1 Warp Prism
At least to me it does not seem like Zerg drops are that much more expensive than from the other races.
If you include Factory and Starport in the cost to get a Medivac, why didn´t you include Lair-tech in the costs for Overlord drop?
Hey :-) Ofc i know that Overlords are 0 supply, and i do also know that there is other tech required which i didnt mention (starport, techlab, lair, etc.). But guys seriously, do i really have to mention that u need a starport or a lair for drops? Do i really have to mention that overlords doesnt have supply? I assumed that ure all starcraft gamers and know at least the very most important facts, so i didnt see a reason mentioning them. I wanted to point out the important facts which not everyone knows, which is mostly movement speed and cost in my opinion. I didnt want to post in a Z favoured way, i just wanted to give you a solid base for a open minded discussion. I also didnt QQ about anything. I posted some facts, made POSSIBLE suggestions and added a poll. That being said, i also didnt mention the costs for lair or that "only" 4 supply of lings fit in one overlord. Thats not the point of the thread, and i didnt want to write a novel. I did neither mean that i personally suggest all possible suggestions. I mentioned zergs general capability to perfom multiprong attacks
So please focus on the discussion on itself instead of pointing out how "zergy" my Thread is. Instead just write your opinion (i do agree, i disagree, i agree partly), add your own personal ingame experience and your thoughts. It would be too bad if this thread will be full of offensive posts argueing what was mentioned and was not :x
Your math is shit, you've accounted for Lair and Research but you didn't account for the factory,starport and the reactor for T, and overlords are practically cheaper anyways. Each race is not meant to have the same drop capabilities like the others, zerg's drop might be weaker but it's not weak.
On January 20 2013 01:34 Silencioseu wrote: Your math is shit, you've accounted for Lair and Research but you didn't account for the factory,starport and the reactor for T, and overlords are practically cheaper anyways. Each race is not meant to have the same drop capabilities like the others, zerg's drop might be weaker but it's not weak.
Dude, can you read? I didnt do ANY math, i posted out SOME facts which are important in MY opinion. That has nothing to do with math. I also didnt account the costs for lair or the other tech paths required. I thought the TL Community would appreciate a open minded discussion, instead this thread is full of flames and offensive posts. If this continues i will ask a admin for closing.
And if youre so pissed about my choice of facts, feel free to PM me EVERYTHING and i will add it to the post.
On January 20 2013 01:34 Silencioseu wrote: Your math is shit, you've accounted for Lair and Research but you didn't account for the factory,starport and the reactor for T, and overlords are practically cheaper anyways. Each race is not meant to have the same drop capabilities like the others, zerg's drop might be weaker but it's not weak.
Dude, can you read? I didnt do ANY math, i posted out SOME facts which are important in MY opinion. That has nothing to do with math. I also didnt account the costs for lair or the other tech paths required. I thought the TL Community would appreciate a open minded discussion, instead this thread is full of flames and offensive posts. If this continues i will ask a admin for closing.
And if youre so pissed about my choice of facts, feel free to PM me EVERYTHING and i will add it to the post.
Well how the hell do you expect to compare costs if you ignore parts of the costs?!
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake!
Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back.
PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton.
For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory.
A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply.
Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . .
Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough.
Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in.
____
Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.
You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost)
2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base.
True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind.
The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Summing up my original Post:
Zerg: Overlord Speed: 100-100 Overlord Drops: 200-200 Overlords: 0-0 you will have enough to drop your entire army as long as it is not pure Zerglings. 300-300 to drop as much as you want.
Terran: Factory: 150-100 Starport: 150-100 Medivac: 100-100 2 Supply 450-300 and 2 Supply for a single Medivac to drop up to 8 units, depending on size.
Protoss: Robotic: 200-100 Warp Prism: 200-0 2 Supply 300-100 and 2 Supply for a single Warp Prism to drop up to 4 units and Warp in. Keep in mind that even though you can Warp in more units, you can not retreat with them, they will die, forcing you to do damage.
Zerg: 300-300 - all Overlords get Drop and Speed Terran: 450-300 - 1 Medivac Protoss: 300-100 - 1 Warp Prism
At least to me it does not seem like Zerg drops are that much more expensive than from the other races.
If you include Factory and Starport in the cost to get a Medivac, why didn´t you include Lair-tech in the costs for Overlord drop?
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake!
Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back.
PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton.
For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory.
A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply.
Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . .
Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough.
Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in.
____
Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.
You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost)
2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base.
True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind.
The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Okay dude, don't start this. What I mean by 'this' is the stats argument.
You're going on about how a Medivac cost includes the required buildings, and then you fail to mention the Lair requirement for Zerg. It's a completely imbalanced argument. If you're going to compare stats, compare them properly at least. Also, if you're really going to consider partial supply costs in resources for your units (when you referred to the Medivac also costing 1/4 of a Supply Depot plus lost mining time), then you need to consider every single building Zerg makes. The Drone costs 50 minerals, and if it wasn't made into a building, it could have mined for the rest of the game. That's why discussions such as this are a lot more complex than people think, because you can never compare race to race exactly. They are all different.
Besides, balance arguments will never end because of how unique the races are. Eg:
"Zerg can drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base." "Well Terran rapidly heals his units and can stim them for the highest DPS to cost ratio in the entire game." "But Protoss doesn't even need to build units, he just warps them in instantly wherever he wants." "Yeah but Zerg have a Nydus Network which for only 100-100 resources that they can instantly travel anywhere on the map."
And so on and so forth...
My point being, there's no point in comparing stats if you don't do it correctly. It's like weighing things using different measurements and basing the heaviest on the highest number. Completely inaccurate.
Having said all this, I'm fine with Zerg drops currently. In a standard macro game, it's what, 1.3 Infestors worth of gas? Most people get the speed upgrade anyway so it's just the drop research left.
There hasnt been a single valid argument in this thread as to why Overlord drops are weak.
First of all the cost of Overlord dropping is not 300/300. It's pretty much impossible to calculate a general cost for drop overlords, as the upgrades are applied to all Overlords but not all are used for dropping. So if you get the upgrades and use a single Overlord to drop, then yes, that's a crazy expensive drop unit. Once you use more, the cost per unit drops below the price of a medivac or prism. Factoring in the cost of a Factory, Starport or a Lair, (or whatever) into the cost of drop units is bullshit, as that would suggest those buildings are only used to open up the tech route to drop units. Obviously, that isn't the case.
Second, comparing the abilities of the Overlord to the Medivac and the Warp Prism is silly. All three have to be seen in context of their race, all three races have different advantages and disadvantages. Of course the Warp Prism and the Medivac are better drop ships than the Overlord, but that does not mean the Overlord is not an effective drop ship. And it does not explain why Zergs aren't using them.
The argument that comes the closest to being valid is the remark made about the speed of the overlord, as it has a decent influence on its role as a drop ship. However, you could also argue that the Overlord has more HP than the Medivac, there for it is able to take more anti air fire, which may result in the Overlord being equally good at dropping units. It also depends on the situation, in some cases more speed is better in other cases more HP is better.
Before we start a discussion or make suggestions, lets have a closer look at the stats compared to the other two races:
Zerg Drop: Cost 100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300 Move speed: 1.88 Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus
Terran Drop: Cost 100/100 for each medivac Move speed: 2.5 Move speed with Ingnite Afterburner: 4.25 Note: Medivacs are a coreunit of the terran army, which is really important in all games where biounits are used, so the costs arent "just" for drops.
Protoss Warp Prism: Cost 200/0 Move speed: 2.5 Move speed with Gravitic Drive (100/100): 3.38 Note: Warp Prisms are maybe not a core unit, but still quite important for pushing to reinforce and save/micro coreunits.
So, we see that the zerg drops are most expensive while being very slow and weak compared to the options the other two races have. People make threads claiming zerg has no weapons - we should rather say Z has weapons, but theyre everything but effective. To invest so much in nydus/drops in midgame we are almost forced to allin or at least do a ton of damage, in the lategame we still have the problem that the movement speed is just 1.88 which really seems to be a bad joke for me. Furthermore, zerg was always considered as the "mobile race", which makes that issue even more a concern for me. Encouraging Z drop play wouldnt just buff zerg, it would make the game much more interesting and back and forth, for the players as well as the spectators. Any developement which goes away from the "get a deathball and steamroll" is good for the game itself in my opinion.
Possible suggestions: - Buff the overlord speed gained by speedupgrade by X.XX or give Z a Ignite Burner-like ability - Lower the costs maybe a little bit (its okay if its expensive, because we dont have to build any dropships, we always have a lot of overlords which we can use) - Lower the costs of nydus drasticly, nydus play was a fail since WoL. It never has been effective. Lowering the costs or just make it possible to cancle the nydus when u try to build one and it gets spotted would give Z great abilities to defend and pressure at the same time.
Hi there,
I think that zerg nydus/drop play is entertaining and underrated, so i really enjoy thread wanting to promote it. Sadly, i'm not sure you're doing it right, simply because your statement arent really objective, neither true...
Let's first talk about the cost you explained.
Zerg drop tech requires:
lair (150/150) drop reasearch (100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300) overlord = irrelevant since you use them for supply. = 0 (ish, that may be discuted) supply 0
total : 350/350 for about 20 overlords drop (since everysingle overlord become a potential drop ship) and cost 0 supply
Terran drop tech requires :
Factorie (150/100) Starport (150/100/starport) (+ addon eventually 50/50) = 150/100 or 200/150 medivacs : 100/100 x N medivacs supply : 2/medivac
total : grand total (including factory, which may be discussed) : 350/250 (buildings) + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs
lower total (no factory, no addon) 150/100 + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs
In the grand total case, terran drop tech is more expensive by a large margin + takes supply. Ofc medivacs do more than just droping (healing bio units) but i'm just talking about drop tech.
Protoss "drop" tech (drop is between " " because of the ability to warp in reinforcement which make is quite strong, and more useful than a regular drop)
total : 400/200 (+100/100 for upgrade) x N warp prism + 2 supply x N warp prism.
Protoss tech is arguably a tiny bit more expensive than Zerg tech.
So basically my point is (and it can be discussed) Zerg drop tech is not AS expensive as ppl may think. It's more an "i dont need to drop" or "i dont have the time to research it" or "i dont think about it" kind of tech.
About drop's strenghts:
Zerg overlord :
Supply: 0 Build Time: 25 secs (fastest to build)
Hit Points: 200 Energy: 0
Movement: Slow (0.469) (Move speed: 1.88 after upgrade) Armor: 0
This is the slowest drop ship. Fastest build time. No supply taken; Highest amount of hp, no energy --> no feedback. No armor.
Terran medivacs :
Supply: 2 Build Time: 42 secs (decent time, can be made 2 at once)
Hit Points: 150 Energy: 200
Movement: Normal (2.5) ( after booster (limited in time) 4.25) Armor 1
This unit can heal but has low hp pool and potential high mana which make it not that good against stacked anti air and able to get feedbacked and do take 2 supply/medivacs
Protoss warp prism
Supply: 2 Build Time: 50 secs (decent build time, takes on other's robo units)
Hit Points: 100 Shields: 40
Energy: 0
Movement: Normal (with upgrade 3.38) Armor: 0
This unit has decent hp (100+40, stronger than medivac), decent speed (faster than a non boosted medivac/orerlord), no armor, take supply (2/prism) and can then be used to warp infinity unit until stopped.
So basically we can say that the Zerg drop tech has the cheapest (arguably) drop ship, with the highest amount of HP, the same load capacity (up to 8 supply) but is rather slow. Which mean it's not the best nor the worst drop tech, it just has its own strenghts and weakness. You may add that after unloading, zerg can poop creep everywhere, making building impossible, and granting bonus speed to zerg's units.
All that talk to say, maybe Z drop tech needs a buff, but i'd would rather like to see it tested and used first (and for instance drop tech vs Mech play is really good, or banelings drop vs Toss...) in its current state (which is feel is already good) rahter than buffing it instant and making it almost op (i.e queens post patch).
It's more about Zergies taking risk researching and using it (i.e multitasking more) than to blizzard buffing it to make it even easier.
We've probably all seen some games (i'm thinking about TLO vs Mana today at IEM) or some of Dimaga's games (where he showcases how good was baneling drop against protoss) which tend to show that drop tech as it is is already strong, and that if zerg (dimaga/TLO are known for experimenting stuff in the Zerg race) took time to explore it, they may find it's already pretty good. Obviously, and again, it may still need a buff or a twist. But first of all, try to use it like it is now?
(NB/: ask any Terran or protoss which faced a decent droping zerg, how hard it can be... i'm pretty sure everyone would say that's it's both strong and make the match more interesting)
(NB2: we may also think about some of TLO's strat with zerg drop + nydus followup to reinforce, which lead to incredibly one sided matches.)
Conclusion: I think that zerg drop and nydus play suffer from underuse and underconsideration rather than underpowering. Exploring and finding way to make them work would make the game both more interesting, and the zerg playstyle wider and more funny to watch and play. It'll allow some aggressive play from Z, which is what seems to be the current demand from the Z players.
This is the perfect post to calm my rage from the OP's math, thank you.
I mentioned that Warp Prisms get to warp in additional units but they are trapped.
I did not expect anyone to not know that Medivacs heal...
the inclusion of SCV mining time was stupid, I should have done it for either all buildings or none, best is to disregard it because that is how the unit works.
Also you do _not_ need to include the cost of your drones since you would get the hatchery anyway (You even get one for free at the beginning)
And I just didn't like the way OP presented it, saying Well Zerg drops cost 300-300 Terran only 100-100 because that is about as stupid as you can possibly compare the costs of things.
Maybe, Zerg harassment is more about muta, burrowed infestors and lings than drops? Look at Life and tell me Zergs are weak at multiprong harassment. Different races works differently, no big deal. I'm fine with not having viable drops.
Before we start a discussion or make suggestions, lets have a closer look at the stats compared to the other two races:
Zerg Drop: Cost 100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300 Move speed: 1.88 Zerg Nydus: Cost 150/200 + 100/100 (20s buildtime) for every try to set a nydus
Terran Drop: Cost 100/100 for each medivac Move speed: 2.5 Move speed with Ingnite Afterburner: 4.25 Note: Medivacs are a coreunit of the terran army, which is really important in all games where biounits are used, so the costs arent "just" for drops.
Protoss Warp Prism: Cost 200/0 Move speed: 2.5 Move speed with Gravitic Drive (100/100): 3.38 Note: Warp Prisms are maybe not a core unit, but still quite important for pushing to reinforce and save/micro coreunits.
So, we see that the zerg drops are most expensive while being very slow and weak compared to the options the other two races have. People make threads claiming zerg has no weapons - we should rather say Z has weapons, but theyre everything but effective. To invest so much in nydus/drops in midgame we are almost forced to allin or at least do a ton of damage, in the lategame we still have the problem that the movement speed is just 1.88 which really seems to be a bad joke for me. Furthermore, zerg was always considered as the "mobile race", which makes that issue even more a concern for me. Encouraging Z drop play wouldnt just buff zerg, it would make the game much more interesting and back and forth, for the players as well as the spectators. Any developement which goes away from the "get a deathball and steamroll" is good for the game itself in my opinion.
Possible suggestions: - Buff the overlord speed gained by speedupgrade by X.XX or give Z a Ignite Burner-like ability - Lower the costs maybe a little bit (its okay if its expensive, because we dont have to build any dropships, we always have a lot of overlords which we can use) - Lower the costs of nydus drasticly, nydus play was a fail since WoL. It never has been effective. Lowering the costs or just make it possible to cancle the nydus when u try to build one and it gets spotted would give Z great abilities to defend and pressure at the same time.
Hi there,
I think that zerg nydus/drop play is entertaining and underrated, so i really enjoy thread wanting to promote it. Sadly, i'm not sure you're doing it right, simply because your statement arent really objective, neither true...
Let's first talk about the cost you explained.
Zerg drop tech requires:
lair (150/150) drop reasearch (100/100 + 200/200 = 300/300) overlord = irrelevant since you use them for supply. = 0 (ish, that may be discuted) supply 0
total : 350/350 for about 20 overlords drop (since everysingle overlord become a potential drop ship) and cost 0 supply
Terran drop tech requires :
Factorie (150/100) Starport (150/100/starport) (+ addon eventually 50/50) = 150/100 or 200/150 medivacs : 100/100 x N medivacs supply : 2/medivac
total : grand total (including factory, which may be discussed) : 350/250 (buildings) + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs
lower total (no factory, no addon) 150/100 + 100/100 x N medivacs + 2 supply x N medivacs
In the grand total case, terran drop tech is more expensive by a large margin + takes supply. Ofc medivacs do more than just droping (healing bio units) but i'm just talking about drop tech.
Protoss "drop" tech (drop is between " " because of the ability to warp in reinforcement which make is quite strong, and more useful than a regular drop)
total : 400/200 (+100/100 for upgrade) x N warp prism + 2 supply x N warp prism.
Protoss tech is arguably a tiny bit more expensive than Zerg tech.
So basically my point is (and it can be discussed) Zerg drop tech is not AS expensive as ppl may think. It's more an "i dont need to drop" or "i dont have the time to research it" or "i dont think about it" kind of tech.
About drop's strenghts:
Zerg overlord :
Supply: 0 Build Time: 25 secs (fastest to build)
Hit Points: 200 Energy: 0
Movement: Slow (0.469) (Move speed: 1.88 after upgrade) Armor: 0
This is the slowest drop ship. Fastest build time. No supply taken; Highest amount of hp, no energy --> no feedback. No armor.
Terran medivacs :
Supply: 2 Build Time: 42 secs (decent time, can be made 2 at once)
Hit Points: 150 Energy: 200
Movement: Normal (2.5) ( after booster (limited in time) 4.25) Armor 1
This unit can heal but has low hp pool and potential high mana which make it not that good against stacked anti air and able to get feedbacked and do take 2 supply/medivacs
Protoss warp prism
Supply: 2 Build Time: 50 secs (decent build time, takes on other's robo units)
Hit Points: 100 Shields: 40
Energy: 0
Movement: Normal (with upgrade 3.38) Armor: 0
This unit has decent hp (100+40, stronger than medivac), decent speed (faster than a non boosted medivac/orerlord), no armor, take supply (2/prism) and can then be used to warp infinity unit until stopped.
So basically we can say that the Zerg drop tech has the cheapest (arguably) drop ship, with the highest amount of HP, the same load capacity (up to 8 supply) but is rather slow. Which mean it's not the best nor the worst drop tech, it just has its own strenghts and weakness. You may add that after unloading, zerg can poop creep everywhere, making building impossible, and granting bonus speed to zerg's units.
All that talk to say, maybe Z drop tech needs a buff, but i'd would rather like to see it tested and used first (and for instance drop tech vs Mech play is really good, or banelings drop vs Toss...) in its current state (which is feel is already good) rahter than buffing it instant and making it almost op (i.e queens post patch).
It's more about Zergies taking risk researching and using it (i.e multitasking more) than to blizzard buffing it to make it even easier.
We've probably all seen some games (i'm thinking about TLO vs Mana today at IEM) or some of Dimaga's games (where he showcases how good was baneling drop against protoss) which tend to show that drop tech as it is is already strong, and that if zerg (dimaga/TLO are known for experimenting stuff in the Zerg race) took time to explore it, they may find it's already pretty good. Obviously, and again, it may still need a buff or a twist. But first of all, try to use it like it is now?
(NB/: ask any Terran or protoss which faced a decent droping zerg, how hard it can be... i'm pretty sure everyone would say that's it's both strong and make the match more interesting)
(NB2: we may also think about some of TLO's strat with zerg drop + nydus followup to reinforce, which lead to incredibly one sided matches.)
Conclusion: I think that zerg drop and nydus play suffer from underuse and underconsideration rather than underpowering. Exploring and finding way to make them work would make the game both more interesting, and the zerg playstyle wider and more funny to watch and play. It'll allow some aggressive play from Z, which is what seems to be the current demand from the Z players.
This is the perfect post to calm my rage from the OP's math, thank you.
Added some more stats to the OP (everything but techpaths).
@ rEalGuapo. I did mention that the costs for terran are for each medivac. What the hell are you argueing about? Its just a fact that both, P and T options to drop got heavily buffed recently, and nothing was done to zerg drops or/and nydus worms. You can flame as much on my math as you want. But you cannot ignore that fact. And regards the tech paths, I will also refuse to add these, according to your argumentation you could even say a SCV costs 450 minerals because you need a CC, its just dumb and makes the OP more confusing than it already is, which is bad for a open minded discussion
Furthermore, there is no build in the world which allows you to be maxed on roaches with drops at 11min. The earliest is about 12-13min (Hyun did play that style a long time in WoL)
On January 20 2013 01:59 Natalya wrote: Maybe, Zerg harassment is more about muta, burrowed infestors and lings than drops? Look at Life and tell me Zergs are weak at multiprong harassment. Different races works differently, no big deal. I'm fine with not having viable drops.
Doesn't matter. The question is variety and a wide range of strategic possibilities. These things are universally good for strategy games, whether some use it or not.
As for zerg drops, I think they're in a good place at the moment. The biggest issue may be that they are a fairly big midgame investment (much like swarm hosts), so in order to make them viable in the midgame, YOU HAVE TO DO DAMAGE. It would be nice to see nydus be a slightly less risky and huge investment, making it the primary midgame harassment tool. I like the idea of being able to cancel a nydus or give zergs more nydus options so that nydus would be a more viable option. In the lategame, I think it would be great to see nydus networks used more defensively.
Lategame drops for zerg are great. You can dump all your minerals into overlords + zerglings and do a lot of damage in places your opponent can't defend while putting on pressure with gas units like broodlords or swarm hosts. In addition, mass zerg drops are much more likely to succeed against turret rings than warp prism play or medivac drops.
no drops are fine. nydus could be worked on but if you get that nydus do your good.the only reason people can say that both are weak is because not many koreans use them, but every time i play zerg i drop against zerg or toss with nydus you drop around 4 to 8 roachs in main then nydus third and then nydus main and switch back and forth
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake!
Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back.
PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton.
For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory.
A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply.
Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . .
Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough.
Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in.
____
Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.
You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost)
2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base.
True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind.
The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Don't be ridiculous.
Next you're saying the cost of an SCV is 450 because you need a command center...
Every game Terrans build Starports. Be it mech or bio. Stargates are not built as often, but you make ridiculous clains.
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake!
Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back.
PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton.
For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory.
A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply.
Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . .
Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough.
Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in.
____
Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.
You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost)
2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base.
True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind.
The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Lawyered!! Seriously OP, you ignore this comment and did not reply to it, I want to see you come up with a valid answer to this, but I doubt you have since this whole post stinks of bias and whining.
To be frank I doubt you can have drop put to the 11 minute mark while still being maxed, even if you lower the cost for drop upgrade it would not help. 12-13 minute mark should be possible for good players, and I doing doomdrops with roach/ling seem kinda all-in and not that strong if the opponent correctly reads your drop play.
On January 20 2013 02:48 Thieving Magpie wrote: Shouldn't the first question be "when is it possible for Zerg to do drop play" instead of number crunching costs?
I kinda disagree. For sure T and P drop options are viable much more early than Z, but you cannot compare that. While it is good for terran/protoss to drop e.g. 4helions/8marines or 4 sentries at 8minutes, its not good for zerg. Zerg wants to be maxed or nearly maxed to perform drops. Thats why drops are available much later than P/T drops, which is right in my opinion
Well, Nydus is in a weird spot balancewise. Imo they should at least buff the UPLOAD of units, so you can retreat reasonably well with bigger armies. For drops... I'm not sure. I think they are powerful. They just don't work out buildorder wise. I mean, they are balanced for massive doomdrops. To do a massive doomdrop, you need a massive army. To have a massive army, you need a massive economy. That means drops are hardly useful in the midgame, because you cannot have economy, army and tech all at once.
Also there is simply the problem that zerg units aren't very good for dropping. Like, what you want to have in a drop is something cheap with high dps that can punish an opponent that is out of position. For zerg units, that means zerglings - which you can only load up 8 per overlord (200minerals/4supply worth of army, compared to 400/8 compared to zealots or marines). Basically, the best units that zergs can drop are roaches because they are sacrificeable and ranged - but they don't have a lot of dps which makes them only average in punishing opponents. Well and banelings into mineral lines, but those are again really expensive and somewhat coinflippy, because when the opponent runs they wont do anything. On top of all that, P/T have to be ready for a massive mutalisk switch when playing against zerg. But when you are ready for that, you are usually also ready for any form of smaller dropplay easily. I guess zerg drops are just what they are. I don't believe they really need buffs, because they are potent in the lategame stages. They are just not a real midgame option, due to the economy required to make them useful in the midgame.
Good change may be for example instant drop of zerglings from overlords. Now it takes a long time to drop all 8 lings, and once enemy spot it, they won't do almost any damage, because they aren't ranged.
i like nydus but it seems like a whole playstyle needs to be cultivated around for it to be worth the cost with any regularity IE its only use can't be just gambling that the opponent won't spot it or be able to stop it in time. not being able to cancel a worm when it's spotted seems like a big disincentive. i dunno if that's originally there for some balance reason but i feel like it will always be hard to make creative use of nydus and still win games until you're able to cancel a worm that's building and get most of your money back. it can theoretically be used like the old nydus canal to connect point of interests, act as a forward pylon, exploit lack of vision or lack of unit spread and do the whack-a-mole thing, in addition to bypassing terrain and acting as a drop mechanic. the most interesting thing to me about it is what it does to slow unit compositions, and armies with lots of queens in particular. it's like moving your base right in front of theirs and getting the advantages that come with that without actually putting your base at risk. but if they're being used like that they'll naturally become targets. so i dunno. it seems like mainly a cost thing. most games ive seen where the nydus has been used really well start out looking really good for the zerg, but the longer the zerg doesn't outright win with it the further they fall behind because of the resources going into it.
It would be really cool if overseers could still drop units. You spend 50/50 to morph the overlord into an overseer, which will grant you additional speed. Furthermore, zerg drops suck unless it's unexpected (obviously) and in huge numbers. Only 8 lings fit in an overlord (which is dumb - it should hold 8 supply, thus 16 lings). 8 lings are fairly worthless, a few re-rallied marines or a zealot warp in will destroy this. Roaches are alright - but unlike stimmed bio, still suck at taking down stuff.
The main problem is the nydus network IMO. I don't think being able to cancel it would fix this - This would make it too easy to create and then cancel nydusses everywhere, pulling the enemy apart. Perhaps a faster build time, more HP, or some kind of ability (Some kind of 'knockback' spell once it completes to push back attacking forces? Just making stuff up here) would be cool.
The issue is that if Zerg decides to go for drop or nydus they HAVE to do damage. It HAS to be an all in otherwise there is no way to justify the cost.
Really looking at how Blizzard has done with Zerg so far in HotS they must be working on it right now or something. Terran and Protoss are just looking SO much better than Zerg right now.
Infestor drops would be good--but burrow move means its more cost effective to do cloak runs.
Hydra drops would be good--but infestors do it better, at the same tech time, and infestors can do it without overlords/nydus.
8 lings are okay--but wouldn't you rather runby with 20-30 lings?
Banelings work--but range is bad, can't chase workers, and can't threaten to destroy infrastructure.
But assuming there is a unit comp that is advantageous to drop--what is the game state we're looking for that makes us go "this is a good time to do a drop."
I feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks.
The problem is not that drops are too expensive, it's just zerg is always afraid of strong counter attack after drop. Unless of course zerg is in super all in and opponent just does not have enough stuff to defend right away. But that usually not the case and after the drop toss (especially) can just march their army into zerg's main and kill him.
I feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks.
Just make Nydus be affected by ground armor upgrades or make separate upgrade, that adds +2 armor for nydus
Drop play isn't too weak, zerg harass isn't too weak, nydus worms aren't too weak.
Just because zerg doesn't need to use these tools to win games and therefore doesn't usually use them doesn't make them weak or mean they need to be buffed. With 2 upgrades, every single one of your supply providing units that you have no choice but to build anyway becomes a dropship. I mean.... really?
Nydus worms and drops seem weak because the zerg army is relatively weak when it's not in the open, and you generally drop or nydus worm into an enclosed area. That's pretty much all there is to it.
I feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks.
Can't be done at the moment. 1-base nydus as a response to FFE is unstoppable if you can't kill it with workers. If you ask me, the problem is definitely not with the durability of the nydus, but how little it really does for the zerg army. You can only unload and load one unit at a time, so they get bottlenecked pretty badly going through nydus (something neither runbys nor drops have issues with). In addition, with the amount of vision possible in the mid- and late-game in SC2, it's WAY too easy to spot a nydus; perhaps a slight decrease in size can make it a little harder to spot. I mean, let's face it, the dot for nukes is like the size of a roach and doesn't show up on the minimap; I'd rather have a "nydus worm detected" alarm and have to find it manually.
imo the nydus should be buffed since it is not only interesting gameplay-wise but it also offers excitement for the spectator. I find it ridiculous that a worker surround can kill a nydus canal before it completes.
If they can't then directly zerg is OP as hell. It means you have a keep an extra group of military units in every base you have, regardless if he makes nydus or not.
The nydus worm in its current state must be destroyable by workers, it is a direct two-way teleportation device, it would be like as soon as a toss deploys a warp prism he can teleport his entire army into your base.
The only way I see is you can buff a nydus worms strength, is if you add other restrictions (so different types). For example only allow it to be placed on creep. Or if you want it directly into enemies main, only allow it for a one way, limitted number of units.
Zerg drops have a totally different purpose than terran/protoss drops.
Terran and protoss drops need to move fast because they are harassment, just like hellions or banshees or ling runbys. The dropships or prisms attack at a different point, away from the main army.
A zerg drop is not harassment; Overlords move far too slow for that and roaches/lings run much faster than most ground units. The Zerg drop is a devastating attack that always has the potential to go all-in (see Stephano roachling drops) because Zerg will ALWAYS have enough overlords to carry their entire army. (8 supply = 8 spaces) Overlord drop is used as part of the main army, and is very powerful for carrying roach/ling over forcefields and walls, or putting Banelings in the middle of the enemy army.
Honestly, I think there shouldn't be any big changes. Comparing races and then making statements that one way has a disadvantage over in other in term of a specific feature leads to homogenization within the game. Overall this usually leads to gameplay becoming less interesting over a extended period of time.
On January 19 2013 20:14 Kaldi wrote: 100% aggree with this thread. The overlord drops need to be alot cheaper so we can drop in the midgame and get similar harass possiblitities as the other races. Personally i love to drop and try to incorporate it as much as possible but i feel every time i got for it it is better not to since its so exspensive.
I think the question shouldnt be is zerg drop play too weak but is it too expensive? which is 100% is.
Sure, sure Stephano 11 minute max with drops so that you get to drop 100ish army supply into Protoss' main while still having 60 Lings attacking everything else. That sounds pretty damn balanced, I mean Protoss can barely hold with Cannons and good forcefields, circumvent them for Balance's sake!
Honestly Zerg has always way better economy in mid game, getting drops wouldn't hurt that much, people just don't do it because they ... I have no clue. I mean, I hear IdrA saying that it is too big of an investment and you would lose ever single game doing it, meanwhile he looks at 40 Speedlings running against a Force Field and getting destroyed rather than pulling them back.
PLUS your "Dropships" are completely free of supply, no tech required AND you get them either way, it is not like Warp Prisms or Medivacs which cost a ton.
For 300-300 you get to drop as many units as you can afford. That is the cost of 3 Medivacs not counting the Starport or the Reactor. Or the Factory which is required for the Starport. A single Medivac is 450-300 counting in Starport and Factory.
A single Warp Prism costs 200 Minerals, if I were to get enough to drop my 40 supply army that would be 2000 Minerals and another 20 Supply.
Sure, Zerg drops are WAYYY too expensive. . . .
Fact of the matter is that neither Protoss nor Terran can possibly withstand an all-in without walling and having perfect positioning as well as some sort of static defense. Even then, it is often not enough.
Now add in close-to-free drops and no Zerg would ever feel the need to go into a macro game because no Protoss or Terran Player could ever hold any 2 or 3 base all-in.
____
Edit: Just took a look at OPs math. . . . Either change that or close this thread please.
You cannot compare getting cost of a single Medivac to the Cost of Overlord drops. A single Medivac also requires a Starport, which also requires a Factory, factor those in and you get yourself pretty much the same price as Zerg drops. 450-300 to be precise. Now you got ONE Medivac against ALL Overlords. Seems like Zerg drops aren't quite as expensive, now are they? Also Medivacs cost supply and Overlords grant supply. so it is more like 485-300 to 300-300 (cost of a quarter of a Supply Depot and 10 minerals worth of mining time lost)
2 Medivacs, Starport and Factory are way more expensive (Mineral and Gas-wise) than getting Overlord drops and speed Upgrade. And now Terran has the potential to drop a force that can do significant damage if you react too slow. Zerg on the other hand has the possibility to drop his entire army and all the Queens, then spread creep like a mad man in the Opponent's base.
True, Warp Prisms function differently and you can warp in a ton of units from a single one (that costs, counting the Robo 300-100) But you sacrifice the possibility to retreat with most of your Units, so you are FORCED to do damage or you are guaranteed to get pretty far behind.
The way you look at it is ridiculously far away from reality. No wonder it looks expensive, the math could hardly be any more biased.
Don't be ridiculous.
Next you're saying the cost of an SCV is 450 because you need a command center...
Every game Terrans build Starports. Be it mech or bio. Stargates are not built as often, but you make ridiculous clains.
Don't be ridiculous, the only reason terrans build starports is medivacs, else they wouldn't build it at all wouldn't they? Also in MMM comps factory is also useless.
I think Drops really need to be cheaper or research faster. Right now there is this huge pressure to get something to deal witha 3 base colosus push in ZvP that there is simply no time and resource to invest into drops, you need to focus on getting to your anti colo composition. Best thing imo would be to make drop research slightly longer then speed (say 20 ig sec) Also Roaches and Hydras are really supplyinefficient and thus drops as a herras (NOT doomdrops) are very weak.
Rather than buff the Nydus, I think they should make it the requirement for hive instead of Infestation pit. Infestors and (arguably) Swarm Hosts are specialised and powerful enough to warrent having to choose it as a tech option, and one of the main reasons people don't experiment with nydus is the initial investement in the Nydus Network. If it were to become a prerequisite of standard tech then I am sure we would see a lot more use and innovative use of it across the board.
I would also consider adding an upgrade to the Network itself which once upgraded allows 2 worms to be placed simultaneously. The upgrade would need to cost 50:50 or 100:50, and would be per network. So to be able to place 4 worms simultaneously you would need a total of 300 gas invested, and it would always be preferable to upgrade an existing network instead of building a new Network building due to the lower gas cost.
network now costs 50/100 (+50 for drone) but has 70 seconds increased buildtime. nydus worms can simply be casted anywhere on the map without vision, if something is blocking the worm, the worm gets automatically placed (pushing the unit) or if a building is there the worm says "cannot be placed"
zerg can only own/control one nydus network. if a network is building or exists and zerg tries to build another network, the game says "cannot make more than 1 network"
nydus worms have a 60 second cooldown and cost 50/50 to place.
when nydus worms are placed it says "nydus worm detected" for the enemy and it pings an area on the map where the worm is.
nydus networks and worms are permanently revealed to the enemy always (like buildings after all hatcheries are dead)
nydus unload rate increased by 35%
nydus network has 1000 increased health (worms health unchanged)
a 200/200 upgrade exists at hive which turns all hatcheries/lairs/hives into functioning nydus networks (for base defense)
overlord speed reduced to 50/50 cost i feel drops are totally fine. 200/200 to give basically unlimited dropships
I feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks.
Just make Nydus be affected by ground armor upgrades or make separate upgrade, that adds +2 armor for nydus
If they would make the Worm able to be thrown at your enemy and them needing a fair force to deal with it getting up, then they will probably have to deny the ability to getting multiple Worms up at the same time. I would prefer the Worm staying fragile, maybe even more fragile and make it easier to setup more Networks for a defensive purpose. It would also reward sneakyness and skill more then having a Nydus that takes 1 damage from marines. Which then would allow a Baby to pull a large force of the opponent away even if you put it right into their base, because those things can spit out anything, so if they are up they are a huge threat.
On the other hand creep and every Zerg ground unit being fast in general, really reduces the usefulness of a defensive nydus. (except spines and spores who can't enter them and the siegeshroom). The only thing would be for cross posi expansions. But since we have no 4 player maps in sc2 the cross posi expansions will be occupied.
With the Hydra getting a Speed upgrade without Creep, it also seems like they will leave the Nydus the way it is. Until they see an opportunity in the metagame to work it into the game.
I'm sorry but drop play is not too weak at all. I use zerg drops all the time. Ling drops are the cheapest things imaginable and yet they can do serious damage. Baneling drop is still awesome (although can be microed against of course). Other units are a bit expensive to use as drops but nonetheless effective.
The reason people don't use Nydus right now is they don't have a use for it right now. That's pretty much it. When metagame stuff shifts and different strategies pop up Nydus play will be more useful. It's a tool in a toolbox. Find a strategy that uses it well, and you won't find it that weak.
I feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks.
I think that would be a bit too much, still i wanna go a bit into detail about your idea and what i think about it. I dont think a buff for loading/armor will be enough, its just so expensive to invest 300 gas for 1 nydus attempt and 100 more gas for every next attempt(Why cant we cancle the nydus? Would be still 25gas for every cancle which would feel more right to me). I really feel like the nydus needs to be reworked completly. Maybe they should (in case they buff it) move it even to T3 to not encourage allin heavy play with it. I just can repeat myself, it would be super cool if nydus worms would be used defensively too, its just not possible atm because of the costs. To just add a upgrade for armor or/and loading time it would be even more gimmicky because u would have to pay even more gas
Regards the drops: We can argue now wheter the costs should be lowered or not (very different opinions on that so far), but dont you really think that the overlordspeed should be buffed slightly? Just a little bit to compensate for the speedbuffs P/T got. For sure they need to be much slower (because of high HP and because of how doom drops work) than P/T drops but 1.88 speed seems really low to me. I disagree tho for reducing the research time, there are already powerful allins which include drops, reducing the research time could easily lead to imbalance in some situations.
Another nice game with nydus as reinforce outpost. Sadly he used only roaches to fight against terran. If he did other units, maybe then zerg was able to win
On January 20 2013 10:52 DoubleReed wrote: I'm sorry but drop play is not too weak at all. I use zerg drops all the time. Ling drops are the cheapest things imaginable and yet they can do serious damage. Baneling drop is still awesome (although can be microed against of course). Other units are a bit expensive to use as drops but nonetheless effective.
The reason people don't use Nydus right now is they don't have a use for it right now. That's pretty much it. When metagame stuff shifts and different strategies pop up Nydus play will be more useful. It's a tool in a toolbox. Find a strategy that uses it well, and you won't find it that weak.
I completely agree. They just don't fit in standard builds that people are using these days (it doesn't help that the dominant strategy is "tech to hive"; Zerg these days isn't about denying economy for your opponent, it's about taking care of yours). I use both a lot more in HotS, both go very well with swarm hosts in particular. I am willing to bet we'll see a lot more of them when HotS comes out.
300/300 for a play that promises great rewards? imo, zerg drop play or nydus play both suffer a big problem - it just aint consistent enough.
First of all, why not a faster +1 +1 or a spire with +1 or an infestor pit? If the drop or nydus fails, what then? You probably have lost the game 'cause you tech is way too behind to do anything, albeit putting pressure or otherwise defend.
And I can't think of any good units that I can effectively throw away. Terran can do marines with heal, Protoss can zealots with shields, what about Zerg? Lings, sure but as long as your opponent is aware, he can either pull workers or wrap in zealots and that's the end of story. Roaches cost gas - don't do damage quick enough. Infestors could be good, but each costs 150 gas. Perhaps 2 infestors plus a couple of lings would be effective in wiping out the worker line or something. Or maybe queens are useful for this? I don't know.
Also, I am yet to see a zerg drop or nydus (except doom drops) that could outright kill a base. For me, it is just a lot safer and consistent to get an extra base instead.
On January 21 2013 02:13 iGn1t3 wrote: 300/300 for a play that promises great rewards? imo, zerg drop play or nydus play both suffer a big problem - it just aint consistent enough.
First of all, why not a faster +1 +1 or a spire with +1 or an infestor pit? If the drop or nydus fails, what then? You probably have lost the game 'cause you tech is way too behind to do anything, albeit putting pressure or otherwise defend.
And I can't think of any good units that I can effectively throw away. Terran can do marines with heal, Protoss can zealots with shields, what about Zerg? Lings, sure but as long as your opponent is aware, he can either pull workers or wrap in zealots and that's the end of story. Roaches cost gas - don't do damage quick enough. Infestors could be good, but each costs 150 gas. Perhaps 2 infestors plus a couple of lings would be effective in wiping out the worker line or something. Or maybe queens are useful for this? I don't know.
Also, I am yet to see a zerg drop or nydus (except doom drops) that could outright kill a base. For me, it is just a lot safer and consistent to get an extra base instead.
Firstly, you completely forgot about banelings which are fantastic in drops. Hydras are also great in nydus/drops because of the high DPS. As long as they get away, it's usually quite good.
Secondly, it's a little bizarre to say "well the opponent can just pull workers and warp in some zealots." That's true of any drop with any race. Just because something can be defended doesn't mean it's worthless. People don't like having lings in their bases.
Thirdly, ling drops are almost guaranteed to be cost effective if you don't lose the overlord. Not because they're good, but because lings are so incredibly cheap. There's plenty of instances in games where you can throw lings away and constantly dropping can cause severe problems with people's multi-tasking.
Fourthly, since when are drops supposed to kill a base?
Lastly, what if you already have a spire/+1 or infestors...?
I started a thread similar to this before they changed the forum rules, and my observation/proposal was that Blizzard could change how the Zerg dropping mechanism and Overseers functionioned by giving Overseers the detection, speed and drop upgrades by default, increase their build time to 40 seconds and allow Spore Crawlers to detect while uprooted in order to bridge the 24 second gap in mobile detection between the Lair and the increased Overseer morphing time.
Basically, instead of Zerg using end-game doom drops with Ultralisks, Zerg could gain drop tech as a part of their Lair upgrade and be able to harass the opponent with handfuls of units about 90 seconds before Mutalisks could be spawned in order to give Zerg more aggressive options.
I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with how Zerg's drop mechanism works right now from a theory perspective, other than it's not possible to research the drop mechanism immediately at lair tech and thus becomes a late mid-game option for a KO punch as opposed to the timely harassment of the other two races.
I don't think drops are too expensive, they're actually very good depending when you get drop. The problem really is the viability of nydus play. For one thing, using a nydus to reinforce is useless in many scenarios because zerg units in general move across the map pretty fast. The next problem is how fast they die, for 100/100 they shouldn't be able to die to workers surrounding it. The final problem is how slowly units exit the nydus.
I have no problem with Overlord drops but Nydus needs to be buffed in SOME way. It's been clear since the WoL beta that the Nydus is just too expensive for Lair tech and is too much of an all in move unlike Overlord drops (which also doubled as bane rain for the Zerg army in team fights).
There are literally a myriad of different ways Blizzard can go about buffing the Nydus:
1. Lower the time it takes for a Nydus Worm to build. 2. Decrease the cost of making Nydus Worm. In particular, lower the gas cost (note: the Nydus Worm, not Nydus Canal) 3. Remove the screaming notification that let's everyone know "Hey your opponent has a Nydus!" 4. Increase the amount of units that can come out of a Nydus at one time as opposed to one by one. 5. Introduce an upgrade that allows Zerg to make more than one Nydus at a time.
The best buff for Nydus is make them affected by ground armor upgrades. In late game they will have 4 armor, so workers will not be able to shut down them
They are both cheap if you look at what you get for it in return. The problem is more zergs dont need it. Why would you bother with nyduses to stop raids when your army is as fast as the zerg army? And with creep spread you should never be surprised by your enemies main army, so also your slower units should be in place in time.
If you think that nydus shouldnt be able to be killed in time by your workers, do you then also think it is a good idea that if a toss warp prism is in warp mode for lets say 5 seconds they are able to teleport their entire army to it, and back again? If you just keep a few hydras/corrupters in every base you should also be able to kill them in time.
If you cannot stop a nydus with workers, the nydus must have other limitations to compensate, it is just too strong as ability. It effectively means you have to keep sufficient army units in each base to make sure you can kill a possible nydus in time, regardless if he is doing anything with nydus worms.
The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms.
On January 21 2013 05:16 ineversmile wrote: The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms.
I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL...
And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play?
If you improve drops then you need to nerf the speed b/c runbys are so much more vastly effective for zerg. If you complain that you don't have drops then take away zerg runbys and I would gladly like to zerg forced to drop like terran is...
On January 21 2013 05:16 ineversmile wrote: The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms.
I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL...
And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play?
I honestly can't recall a Zerg using nydus correctly, but it's absolutely possible.
Any game where you want to attack and finish your opponent there should be a nydus behind your army, just like Toss does with proxy pylons. This allows your reinforcments to arrive pretty much directly on the battlefield.
I guess the reason many Zerg's don't do this is the cost of the thing, but considering it's often the difference between winning and losing for me, it's well worth it (would you rather roaches later, or lings now?).
Zerg drops are strong, but they do rely heavily on circumstance (I don't like to use them too often) which means you aren't going to see them all the time.
I think nydus would be better if it had armor maybe 3-4 it's a giant armored worm lol. This would make it so you would need more than workers to kill it you would actually have to scout and prepare like drops so you could leave 1 or 2 units waiting for it with workers. Right now if they see it and are completely out of position you can still pull workers and kill the nydus even if its like 40% done and still kill it in time.
On January 21 2013 09:55 CajunMan wrote: I think nydus would be better if it had armor maybe 3-4 it's a giant armored worm lol. This would make it so you would need more than workers to kill it you would actually have to scout and prepare like drops so you could leave 1 or 2 units waiting for it with workers. Right now if they see it and are completely out of position you can still pull workers and kill the nydus even if its like 40% done and still kill it in time.
The nydus NEEDS to be able to be taken out by workers or it would be massively OP.
If you're trying to get the nydus into your opponent's base, you are trying a low-success-rate cheese (not a bad thing nessecarily, but something with an incredible payoff if your opponent is not vigilant).
The nydus excels at reinforcement and adding mobility to a ground army. It's amazing at these things (it's more expensive than, but superior to Warp Gate).
If you wanted to argue for a Nydus buff (not needed, it's already fantastic), make it cheaper (50 gas only?). It's not supposed to be able to go up in an opponent's base just because their army is at the front (nydus in base vs Protoss actually = gg if you don't mess up, terran can mitigate damage with building lifts and get their army back faster, but it's still crazy strong).
On January 21 2013 09:55 CajunMan wrote: I think nydus would be better if it had armor maybe 3-4 it's a giant armored worm lol. This would make it so you would need more than workers to kill it you would actually have to scout and prepare like drops so you could leave 1 or 2 units waiting for it with workers. Right now if they see it and are completely out of position you can still pull workers and kill the nydus even if its like 40% done and still kill it in time.
The nydus NEEDS to be able to be taken out by workers or it would be massively OP.
If you're trying to get the nydus into your opponent's base, you are trying a low-success-rate cheese (not a bad thing nessecarily, but something with an incredible payoff if your opponent is not vigilant).
The nydus excels at reinforcement and adding mobility to a ground army. It's amazing at these things (it's more expensive than, but superior to Warp Gate).
If you wanted to argue for a Nydus buff (not needed, it's already fantastic), make it cheaper (50 gas only?). It's not supposed to be able to go up in an opponent's base just because their army is at the front (nydus in base vs Protoss actually = gg if you don't mess up, terran can mitigate damage with building lifts and get their army back faster, but it's still crazy strong).
It doesn't NEED to if you aren't scouting or preparing properly that sounds more like your fault. Zerg has to dedicate tons of minerals every game to spores and spines at every expansion and main you can't keep 2 zlots, a couple marines hanging around? hmmm
Disagree with the drop buff for Z. Z's drops can be a powerful weapon. There are reasons Z's don't use drops that I can think of, but those have no relations to cost or timing.
Z's need to experiment more with drops. I mean, you guys can fly over a bunch of empty overlords and T/P can't tell whether they're about to shit or not, even with detectors. Try bainling drop once. Then every time your overlords fly in T/P will have to move their armies just in case.
Nydus can be reworked, I suppose. But I have no clue how it can be balanced.
What about making it more similar to the Terran nuke? Change the mound to not show up on minimap like the red dot for the nuke. When the Zerg hits the ability, the enemy gets the warning and has to look for where it is. If he spots it, hooray nydus stopped, if he doesn't it does the damage
On January 21 2013 12:32 KnT wrote: What about making it more similar to the Terran nuke? Change the mound to not show up on minimap like the red dot for the nuke. When the Zerg hits the ability, the enemy gets the warning and has to look for where it is. If he spots it, hooray nydus stopped, if he doesn't it does the damage
That sounds neat what if it could be upgraded to poop out swarms of broodlings?
Firstly, you completely forgot about banelings which are fantastic in drops.
I gotta say that pretty much any protoss will admit to losing a game flat out because of bane drops.
If you know zerg has the capability, you can put a cannon and a stalker at each mineral line, you can be ready to pull and split probes at a moments notice, but this is really the type of thing where a zerg can kill a third of your workers within 2 seconds if you are not fast enough, and every worker you have on the field within 3-5 seconds if you EVER tunnelvision or look away from the minimap.
Four banes cost 100/100, the overlord with speed isnt gonna die to a cannon, banes with +2 attack will oneshot probes in their entire splash radius, you cant seriously think even for a second that trading 100/100 for 40-50 of the toss's ~70 workers isnt worth it.
You cant fail, not consistently. Overlord speed and drop cost so little for what they give you and there's no way for any player to flawlessly defend every bane that runs towards or is dropped in a mineral line
On January 21 2013 12:41 CajunMan wrote: That sounds neat what if it could be upgraded to poop out swarms of broodlings?
I don't think Zerg needs a 4th free unit generator I'd be happier with it spawning broodlings upon death of the worm (not many else workers would get smacked by it - like 2-3 or something)
Edit: If it lost it's transport ability upon the upgrade (Upgrade on the worm itself so you can have either) I guess it wouldn't be too bad though. Or a Hive tech upgrade from the canal itself would be good too, giving 2 worm options
On January 21 2013 12:41 CajunMan wrote: That sounds neat what if it could be upgraded to poop out swarms of broodlings?
I don't think Zerg needs a 4th free unit generator I'd be happier with it spawning broodlings upon death of the worm (not many else workers would get smacked by it - like 2-3 or something)
Edit: If it lost it's transport ability upon the upgrade (Upgrade on the worm itself so you can have either) I guess it wouldn't be too bad though. Or a Hive tech upgrade from the canal itself would be good too, giving 2 worm options
Then get rid of swarm hots lol idk how serious i was just thought that was cool lol.
Firstly, you completely forgot about banelings which are fantastic in drops.
I gotta say that pretty much any protoss will admit to losing a game flat out because of bane drops.
If you know zerg has the capability, you can put a cannon and a stalker at each mineral line, you can be ready to pull and split probes at a moments notice, but this is really the type of thing where a zerg can kill a third of your workers within 2 seconds if you are not fast enough, and every worker you have on the field within 3-5 seconds if you EVER tunnelvision or look away from the minimap.
Four banes cost 100/100, the overlord with speed isnt gonna die to a cannon, banes with +2 attack will oneshot probes in their entire splash radius, you cant seriously think even for a second that trading 100/100 for 40-50 of the toss's ~70 workers isnt worth it.
You cant fail, not consistently. Overlord speed and drop cost so little for what they give you and there's no way for any player to flawlessly defend every bane that runs towards or is dropped in a mineral line
Banelings cost 25/25 and a zergling which costs 25/0. Banelings are 50/25. Four Banes cost 200/100.
But yes, baneling drop is awesome. Although you won't kill 40-50 , that's exaggerating. A successful drop will kill like 20-30 (especially with +2 attack when they one-shot workers).
They are also awesome in battle, because while they can be micro'd against (basically you just kite the overlords), baneling drops deal ridiculous amounts of damage. Anything that gets banelings close to the opponent is obviously going to be awesome. Because banelings are awesome.
Something people always neglect when comparing dropship/warp prism to overlord drops is the tech timing of the strategy. The reason getting drops is "all-in" is because it's available at the same time Zerg is required to do a massive gas dump into their mid-tier units. For all those people making the "you have overlords anyway" argument, lets not forget that medivacs and warp prisms are dual-purpose units as well. Healing makes a drop infinitely stronger especially with good positioning around the minerals, plus being able to warp in tremendously bolsters the potential damage a drop can do.
Xel'naga towers are another contributing factor for drop play being so bad imo. With so much coverage of vision it's so easy for T or P to spot the drop play coming.
I think nydus would greatly benefit from being able to cancel the worm. To compensate the nydus network should have a cooldown on when it can create a worm equal to the build time. So you cant' start one cancel and start another across the map instantly. That would be very overpowered. But letting Zerg recoup the 100/100 would help a lot. The nydus network also needs a reduced cost gas-wise. I'd rather see it cost something like 300/100 instead of 100/200 so when you make your nydus network you're essentially saying i want to build this network instead of a macro hatch instead of making the opportunity cost equal a spire or 8 roaches worth of gas.
This whole comparing costs argument is kind of ridiculous. Sure you could splice the number of minerals and gas it costs, but that totally misses core points such as how resources need to be invested by each race at each point in the game, and how each race would be able to deal with the added abilities at that point in time.
There are three races in this game with varying strengths and weaknesses at different points in the game. Not all races should be able to drop for the same investment at each point in the game. If you want a game like that go play age of empires. Anyways, while Zerg perhaps can't afford drops in the midgame, it's an extremely effective tech in the late game if used properly. By the late game minerals are basically free for Zerg, and 300/300 can easily be recouped by 24 cracklings in your opponents main. Given the odd situation we've found wherein Zerg has the most cost effective late game army and the best reinforcing mechanics, as Terran or Todd you need your entire army engaging, and having to keep units back and getting delayed by small zergling drops can be catastrophic. So yeah I definitely voted no. The thought that zerg doesn't have counter attack potential and needs drops seems very silly to me.
I mean, we could just as easily be talking about how expensive it is for Terran to pressure Zerg greediness in the early game due to ranged queens. Maybe by legacy of the void the Zerg race will have absorbed Protoss and Terran into their DNA and you can have a mega race will all of the strengths of each wrapped up into one, but in the meantime you should be playing some Starcraft.
Isn't that how asymmetric balancing is supposed to work?
It weirds me out how people seem to dig comparing the cost of an unit/upgrade/whatever when ressources clearly don't have the same value to races due to expansion-mechanics and general acquisition of ressources.
I'm pretty sure this is just asymmetrical balance (as the above poster said). Medivacs are better than warp prisms which are better than overlord drops. They all have unique advantages and disadvantages, but I'm pretty sure anyone who plays the game extensively would agree medivacs are the best "dropship" style unit in the game. That is just how this shakes out, and there isn't really a problem with that.
Zerg is generally designed around sending units in and they do damage/fight and die. I think the current state of the overlord is pretty good in that regard. This is further complicated that you get overlords at the beginning, so any buff can really throw things out of whack unless you make it not available until lair or hive tech. Remember, they also get air armor to become a little tougher if that is what you want. Not really sure how they could make this better and it still be balanced. If you want stronger drop play, play terran?
Edit: I do agree nydus worms are under-used. What I'm not sure of is if they are just not good enough to use extensively, or people haven't experimented with them enough.
The problem with Nydus Worms is that it's not smooth to operate in comparison to Nydus Canal.
With overlord poop mechanic old school Nydus play would be simple and make's sense. If you want to nydus from off creep just have an Overlord poop somewhere and build a nydus canal there for 75 mins. Box select an army then right click on one nydus to pop out the other instead of load, unload like it is now.
Amazing play from TLO, but referencing a point 30 minutes into a game doesn't really speak volumes as to the viability of nydus play in a general capacity.
On January 21 2013 14:00 YumYumGranola wrote: This whole comparing costs argument is kind of ridiculous. Sure you could splice the number of minerals and gas it costs, but that totally misses core points such as how resources need to be invested by each race at each point in the game, and how each race would be able to deal with the added abilities at that point in time.
There are three races in this game with varying strengths and weaknesses at different points in the game. Not all races should be able to drop for the same investment at each point in the game. If you want a game like that go play age of empires. Anyways, while Zerg perhaps can't afford drops in the midgame, it's an extremely effective tech in the late game if used properly. By the late game minerals are basically free for Zerg, and 300/300 can easily be recouped by 24 cracklings in your opponents main. Given the odd situation we've found wherein Zerg has the most cost effective late game army and the best reinforcing mechanics, as Terran or Todd you need your entire army engaging, and having to keep units back and getting delayed by small zergling drops can be catastrophic. So yeah I definitely voted no. The thought that zerg doesn't have counter attack potential and needs drops seems very silly to me.
I know that you cant directly compare the costs. Still i had to mention some stats and stuff because of the forum guidelines. I did make a thread before without stats which got closed. So please dont focus so much on the statscomparison, but try to think about the fact that both - P/T drops got strong buff recently and Z not. 1.88 is just really slow, maybe already a slight speed adjustment would seal the deal (or lowering the costs a little bit to make it more viable in midgame without being forced to heavily commit to aggression). 1.88 was okay imo BEFORE T/P drops got a speedbuff.
I think about the nydus part, almost all people do agree hat blizzard really has to do something to fix that. Maybe just fixing nydus would solve both issues because nydus and drops do more or less the same thing besides in some rare situations (e.g. reinforcing with nydus is better than with overlords).
Btw this goes a little bit off-topic. Still i cannot NOT write a statement about the reinforcing part you mentioned. I personally feel like P has the very best reinforcing possibilities in super lategame, because of the warp-in mechanics (i dont wanna claim that that would be OP or sth, i just wanna mention it). This goes also for drops. While Z has to move his supply in slowlords and fly it around the map, P is able to warp in (and spend supply) when the warp prism is already in the base of zerg. Thats a very important point imo, its a little bit of a risk on large maps to sink supply for such a long time in overlords, also if its just cracklings. This also is important for the midgame. If you wanna go for midgame drop pressure (without allinning) and u suddenly have to defend a push you can theoretically be screwed if youre very unlucky in your drop timing, With a little bit more speed OR a little lower cost that issue wouldnt be that much of a deal I also disagree completly that Z has the most powerful lategame army (and thats okay because of design, i dont want symmetric balance, im just mentioning it). Do you even play HotS? We're not in broodlord-infestor WoL times here and by reading your post i get the strong feeling that you have no to very little hots experience which you speak of, otherwise i dont understand what you meant
On January 21 2013 05:16 ineversmile wrote: The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms.
I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL...
I don't think it's ridiculous at all. It's easier to just use one big army on 1-2 control groups than it is to execute a drop while using said army. It's easier to not get a Nydus and set up reinforcements, than it is to get that Nydus and set up reinforcements. It's easier to just complain about needing all the gas in the world, than to spend 300 on it to make every zerg farm a dropship.
It's always easier to do the simple thing than to do the more complicated thing.
And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play?
You have a valid point here, but if the Nydus Worm bonus is an HP buff, then doesn't it have to be compensated by having a slower build time or a slower tech path? How do you expect someone to defend Nydus play, when they spot it, if the HP goes up significantly? It's not like a normal drop, where there's only a limited number of slots--and therefore a reinforce rally/warpin can handle business. A Nydus Worm can send in the entire zerg army if it gets up.
On January 21 2013 05:16 ineversmile wrote: The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms.
I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL...
I don't think it's ridiculous at all. It's easier to just use one big army on 1-2 control groups than it is to execute a drop while using said army. It's easier to not get a Nydus and set up reinforcements, than it is to get that Nydus and set up reinforcements. It's easier to just complain about needing all the gas in the world, than to spend 300 on it to make every zerg farm a dropship.
It's always easier to do the simple thing than to do the more complicated thing.
And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play?
You have a valid point here, but if the Nydus Worm bonus is an HP buff, then doesn't it have to be compensated by having a slower build time or a slower tech path? How do you expect someone to defend Nydus play, when they spot it, if the HP goes up significantly? It's not like a normal drop, where there's only a limited number of slots--and therefore a reinforce rally/warpin can handle business. A Nydus Worm can send in the entire zerg army if it gets up.
Regards Nydusplay you mentioned: I dont think its about "What is easier to play". Pro players have about an average APM of 300, there is no reason for them for playing easy strats. Its just a ruge risk. 300 gas for MAYBE getting a nydus up and use out of it? Why shouldnt u get 2 infestors more, or a few upgrades or T3 tech? That all is much less of a risk and sure to be worth it. Nydus is not. And regrads reinforcing. Reinforcing isnt really that much faster with nydus due the slow load time. So most people prefer solid creep spread to reinforce (which is a lot harder to do compared to spawning a nydus)
I think that the problem with buffing the Zerg's drop/ Nydus play is that since Zerg can reproduce their armies so quickly, death-drops (dropping an entire army) can be game ending for Protoss and Terran because they can trade their army for not only at least a good portion of their opponents army, but also for a lot of buildings/tech/economy as well, and then already have another army ready to defend on creep when the enemy comes back for what will probably be their last counterattack.
On January 22 2013 18:53 cohen5250 wrote: I think that the problem with buffing the Zerg's drop/ Nydus play is that since Zerg can reproduce their armies so quickly, death-drops (dropping an entire army) can be game ending for Protoss and Terran because they can trade their army for not only at least a good portion of their opponents army, but also for a lot of buildings/tech/economy as well, and then already have another army ready to defend on creep when the enemy comes back for what will probably be their last counterattack.
I agree, I feel like Blizzard not attempting to promote nydus through a buff is acknowledgement enough of its "all or nothing" gameplay. Imagine the warp prism was over-buffed, say 300/300 health/shields. It would be overpowered but not game shattering. Overbuffing nydus whether it be shorter build time, more health, armor, faster load/unload, etc. would be game shattering. It's too bad Blizzard didn't play with something in the HotS beta where tournaments/careers aren't at stake in case it's too broken.
One of the main reasons you often don't see zergs opt for these tech paths, is because if zerg invests their resources into this tech, and protoss defends against the drop or nydus, then they will simply attack you at about 200 supply and it is nearly impossible to defend. I fear that they are making drop/nydus even less viable in HOTS, because the mothership core's defensive abilities will make drop and nydus strategies even harder to pull off vs competent opponents.
On January 22 2013 18:34 doggy wrote:Regards Nydusplay you mentioned: I dont think its about "What is easier to play". Pro players have about an average APM of 300, there is no reason for them for playing easy strats. Its just a ruge risk.
Of course they're going to play something simpler, if it works. If all of your opponents are losing to a 2-base all-in, why would you do anything else? When they figure it out, then you do something more complicated. That's how strategy progresses in RTS.
300 gas for MAYBE getting a nydus up and use out of it? Why shouldnt u get 2 infestors more, or a few upgrades or T3 tech? That all is much less of a risk and sure to be worth it. Nydus is not. And regrads reinforcing. Reinforcing isnt really that much faster with nydus due the slow load time. So most people prefer solid creep spread to reinforce (which is a lot harder to do compared to spawning a nydus)
Infestor tech is completely different from Nydus tech. The 2 things do completely different jobs, most of the time. But let's just consider the tech costs and speed for each path:
An infestation pit is 50 seconds, pathogen glands is 80 seconds, so well-timed infestors will pop at 2:10 after the beginning of that tech path (since you time them to hatch right after glands is done, ideally). The pit and glands costs 250/250 in total, to set up. Infestors cost 2 supply each, which equates to another 25 minerals and 1/4 larva per caster (considering overlords invested). Also of note: the pit also costs 1 larva and 50 minerals, so it's 300/250 1 larva to tech infestors (plus all their costs).
Nydus Network is 50 seconds and costs 150/200; a Nydus Worm takes 20 seconds and costs 100/100. Nydus Worms cost no supply and no additional larva beyond the first one to form a Network, which means they don't eat your larva count or force more overlords. So the first Nydus Worm can pop 60 seconds before the first batch of Infestors is out, and that means you could make 3 Nydus Worms before the timing when Infestors could be out. A Nydus Worm isn't something you would mass-produce all at once, like a batch of Infestors, but you wouldn't want it that way anyways...and if you did, you could just build another Network. A Nydus Worm, since it costs 0 supply, is something that can be used at the 200/200 supply cap, just like spine/spore crawlers. Nydus worms also produce creep. Note that it costs 250/300 for a Network and your first Worm, plus 50 minerals and 1 larva for the drone to adjust this to 300/300 to get a Worm out.
May as well look at Overlord tech, along this path. Ventral Sacs (Drop) costs 200/200 and takes 2:10 to research, which is literally the time to hatch 75 energy infestors. Pneumatized Carapace (Speed) costs 100/100 and takes 1 minute to finish, so in total it's 300/300, which is 50/50 more than Infestor tech. However, from there on out, all the dropships you build are just 100 minerals and 0 supply (and a larva, of course). The research, itself, costs 0 larvae (and obviously no supply), which is definitely relevant. This is also something that costs 0 supply...in fact, you can make as many overlords as you have minerals and larvae, so in the late game you could go up to a ridiculous number of overlords and just drop/threaten drops all over the place.
And then you figure a Spire and +1 air weapons is 350/300 and one larva to tech mutas, for another cost comparison for lair tech.
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I mean, it's not free to get drops or a Nydus, but how often do we see zergs with the money to get whatever they want, but they still don't get either of them? If it's 200/200 and they're not getting either, but there's like 3k/1.5k in the bank? What's up with that? That's like a guy with 80 lings and Hive tech not getting Adrenal Glands...people simply didn't get that upgrade for a long time, and there just wasn't a rational explanation. But it still happened. It's not because people are stupid; it's just easier to not get something than it is to get something.
On January 22 2013 19:25 goswser wrote: One of the main reasons you often don't see zergs opt for these tech paths, is because if zerg invests their resources into this tech, and protoss defends against the drop or nydus, then they will simply attack you at about 200 supply and it is nearly impossible to defend. I fear that they are making drop/nydus even less viable in HOTS, because the mothership core's defensive abilities will make drop and nydus strategies even harder to pull off vs competent opponents.
Yes thats the problem i was refering to. Its just sad Z has no possibilities to perform midgame pressure via. drops or nydus without having the fear to just die to the next push if it wont pay off.
@ineversmile You kinda understood me wrong. I didnt want to compare some tech paths, i just wanted to point out that a pro player rather invests in something which definately pays off (e.g. upgrades/tech/techunits) instead of "wasting" 300 gas for something that maybe pays off, and the chances that it will pay off get smaller and smaller the better your opponent is. And still i disagree about chosing the easy way to play. If every pro player would choose the easiest way to go to we would see 95% allins in all games. Thats not what is it about, its about either a) invest gas to a risky investment or b) invest gas to a save investment. I dont have to think long what i would choose regards that question
@ the poster above goswser Defensive nyduses would be great, i would love to see that. Still its not really affordable to spend 300 gas (ok lets be correct, 300 gas for the first far away expo and 100 for every next expo) to that just for being defensive. I rather lose my expansion once and transfer to back-up expansions which only cost 300 minerals instead of paying so much gas. Even in lategame
It is very affordable for defense nyduses. The problem isnt the price there, it is the need. If for the same price as zerg you would give terrans something similar to nydus worms, you would see it being used often, especially by mech players. Try your muta raids when at any time thors can appear in the base.
It isnt used by zergs for that because they dont require it. You should never be surprised by his main army considering you have creep. So what is left is raids, but why would you hassle with nydus worms when you got speedlings and mutas which are pretty much as fast as when you would bother with nydus worms?
On January 22 2013 19:25 goswser wrote: One of the main reasons you often don't see zergs opt for these tech paths, is because if zerg invests their resources into this tech, and protoss defends against the drop or nydus, then they will simply attack you at about 200 supply and it is nearly impossible to defend. I fear that they are making drop/nydus even less viable in HOTS, because the mothership core's defensive abilities will make drop and nydus strategies even harder to pull off vs competent opponents.
Yes thats the problem i was refering to. Its just sad Z has no possibilities to perform midgame pressure via. drops or nydus without having the fear to just die to the next push if it wont pay off.
So you can't just hop back in your Nydus and go home to defend? What's the problem? Isn't that exactly what the mothership core does? Or with drops, can't you kill/unpower gates to reduce the power of a push?
I think nydus' success at the moment is totally dependent on map design. If mains are big, nydus in on the cards. If mains are small, nydus has no real chance (particularly with its build time)
I dont know what the solution is but I think some tweaking is definately in order.
Drop and overlord speed is expensive, is it overly so? hard to say (I havent played with it enough as yet) I guess the fact that 8 lings fit in an overlord which is half the pop of the tier 1 units that fit in the other races drops, that can be a problem. Lings would be my prefference for units to drop but because I just cant drop many units as I would like.
On January 22 2013 19:25 goswser wrote: One of the main reasons you often don't see zergs opt for these tech paths, is because if zerg invests their resources into this tech, and protoss defends against the drop or nydus, then they will simply attack you at about 200 supply and it is nearly impossible to defend. I fear that they are making drop/nydus even less viable in HOTS, because the mothership core's defensive abilities will make drop and nydus strategies even harder to pull off vs competent opponents.
Yes thats the problem i was refering to. Its just sad Z has no possibilities to perform midgame pressure via. drops or nydus without having the fear to just die to the next push if it wont pay off.
So you can't just hop back in your Nydus and go home to defend? What's the problem? Isn't that exactly what the mothership core does? Or with drops, can't you kill/unpower gates to reduce the power of a push?
You misunderstood me again, i think i need to book a english class :D
In the midgame when its about defending timingpushes from P/T you CANNOT waste 300 gas. You will simply not be able to hold. Goswser explained exactly that problem too a few posts above you in case you still dont understand my point ^^.
Edit: Yes youre right when it goes for drops, they can weaken the push. But not a nydus which will be killed by probes at home if T/P isnt in the kitchen to get some coffee
Making nydus cheaper but requiring creep to build would be one way to test out nydus viability with adding some restraint on the play. It would make offensive nydus more difficult; however, connecting bases via nydus would be a greater possibility. Maybe even things like setting up flanks with a nydus could have some potential.
To defend a perfectly executed pre-broodlord timing you need all of these components: -Defensive spines -Infestors with decent amounts of energy -Decent ling upgrades -Ling heavy, not roach heavy -Corrupters -Macro hatch so you can make a large number of lings to reinforce. Aggressive midgame play slows down you getting all this stuff. When you get overlord drop or nydus, you aren't just investing in the cost of this tech, you're investing a lot of money getting this tech out early, along with getting the numbers of roaches/lings to do something with it. Protoss production really ramps up once their 3 base economy kicks in, at which point they catapult from 110-120 supply up to 200 in a very short amount of time. If you use overlord drop, even if it does some damage, at this point in the game it will slow you down in getting all those components more than it will slow protoss down in them getting their 3 base timing. That's the main reason when you see drop used vs protoss, it is usually in a pure roach/ling max all in style, where zerg basically commits to killing protoss rather than just doing damage, because unless you kill or cripple to the point they can't do a 3 base timing, you will just lose because you can't defend it. Sure you do see drop in ZvP, but it's basically a 12 minute roach max with drop, an allin style rather than harass to do damage while you transition.
Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place.
On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote: Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place.
Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P
On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote: Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place.
Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P
On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote: Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place.
Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P
That wasn't your average game though. Symbol took a very quick fourth base, and the dark templar tech didn't pay off at all. Sure they killed the third, but since he already had a fourth base, and just remade the hatchey, the investment wasn't worth it.
On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote: Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place.
Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P
That wasn't your average game though. Symbol took a very quick fourth base, and the dark templar tech didn't pay off at all. Sure they killed the third, but since he already had a fourth base, and just remade the hatchey, the investment wasn't worth it.
Symbol did drop play in 2 back-to-back games, so doesn't that say something about his belief in drop play? It didn't even work in game 1 (because of his screw-up overcommitting) but he still did it in game 2.
EDIT: What we really need are some more spoilers inside spoilers inside spoiled quotes...
On January 22 2013 20:52 ineversmile wrote: Well, if your plan is to make a bunch of spines and infestors and straight tech to brood lords, obviously you have no use for Nydus Worms or Ovie drops. None of that has any synergy. A more logical hive tech path for drop play would be Ultras and Cracklings, which could actually use the damn Nydus/Ovie Drop in the first place.
Its not about synergy its about what you NEED to survive pre-hive timings, disregardless if you go for ultras or broods. I couldnt explain it better than goswser already did one post above you. If you dont understand this i cant help you :-P
Personally - and this is mostly a gut feeling - I never use drops because it feels like I'm just throwing units away to execute a really feeble attack.
When a Terran drops me, it feels like yeah, I appreciate why you're doing that. My base is sparsely populated with low HP, high-value tech structures. You have room to move around, you can snipe something important from range, and if you're paying attention you can leave again because I don't tend to have much anti-air. A drop feels like a smart move.
When a Protoss drops me, I can see the value of that, too. Modest upfront commitment, fast reinforcements if the drop goes well, tough, cheap, high-dps Zealots, and again my base is pretty open for you to move around and snipe stuff. You can also edit the map in real-time and turn my main into an island expansion.
When I think about dropping an opponent, the idea seems really... meh. All that sim-city to try and squeeze past. If there's a single cannon or marine my lings can't reach, their pathing will spaz out and they'll die for nothing. If I send roaches their DPS is terrible. Banelings - ok, but I have to get into the actual mineral line, and it's strictly worker damage only. No tech sniping.
So it's not so much that drops are expensive, more that they feel like a really poor investment. A bit like WoL Hydra: cheaper (and on paper better) than stalkers, but not as good an investment.
You have a valid point here, but if the Nydus Worm bonus is an HP buff, then doesn't it have to be compensated by having a slower build time or a slower tech path? How do you expect someone to defend Nydus play, when they spot it, if the HP goes up significantly? It's not like a normal drop, where there's only a limited number of slots--and therefore a reinforce rally/warpin can handle business. A Nydus Worm can send in the entire zerg army if it gets up.
Increase Nydus Worm health but decrease the speed at which units exit the Nydus Worm in order to create a bottle neck for the opponent to focus fire the units as they are leaving? Another option is to allow the Nydus Network to spawn multiple Nydus Worms simultaneously so the infiltration of your opponent's base is only limited by your vision and your resources.
I think the problem with both drop tech and Nydus Worm tech is by the time the tech becomes available you're not able to invest in that tech immediately because you're sinking your resources into a dead end tech path compared to an Infestation Pit or a Spire and your drop becomes an all-in, you may as well move Nydus Worm tech to the Hive and buff it so it actually sees play as a late mid-game mechanic instead of dump resources into multiple, worthless Nydus Networks in order to spawn multiple Nydus Worms as opposed to investing into a single Nydus Network and being able to spawn multiple Nydus Worms as a default.
If there's nothing to prevent you from spawning multiple Nydus Worms with multiple Nydus Networks other than your resources and that's the only "non all-in" strategy you can use as a drop, then you may as well reduce the overhead on that strategy in order to encourage other players to use it at more dynamic timing windows (Hive + 50 seconds).
You have a valid point here, but if the Nydus Worm bonus is an HP buff, then doesn't it have to be compensated by having a slower build time or a slower tech path? How do you expect someone to defend Nydus play, when they spot it, if the HP goes up significantly? It's not like a normal drop, where there's only a limited number of slots--and therefore a reinforce rally/warpin can handle business. A Nydus Worm can send in the entire zerg army if it gets up.
Increase Nydus Worm health but decrease the speed at which units exit the Nydus Worm in order to create a bottle neck for the opponent to focus fire the units as they are leaving? Another option is to allow the Nydus Network to spawn multiple Nydus Worms simultaneously so the infiltration of your opponent's base is only limited by your vision and your resources.
I would like to see either a decrease in costs which allows you to use the nydus defensively, especially in lategame or/and the possibilty to be able to cancle the nydus if it gets spotted. I think blizzard has to choose wheter they want the nydus to be a offensive or defensive option in the game and then decide how they buff it. Like i mentioned, i would personally prefer a cheaper version (maybe it would have to be set on creep for that or sth)
Reducing the speed at which units exit is not a good idea, it already is insanely slow ^^
Overlord harass is different from overlord drop play. If you're harassing (dropping inside base - roaches or lings usually), you generally don't lose the overlord, making drop play less expensive than a protoss equivalent. I think this is a factor that should have been distinguished. The overlord should only be there as long as the medivac, or the warp prism, and if you're going to say that you'll lose an overlord (and one shouldn't even be that bad) you're also taking into account the fact that all the units that were in the overlord are going to die (so you aren't supply blocked anyways). And people don't usually have a viking or phoenix (especially phoenixes/VR) on hand to deal with drop play.
Edit: Warp prism is definitely not a core unit. A supporting unit easily, but not core.
You have a valid point here, but if the Nydus Worm bonus is an HP buff, then doesn't it have to be compensated by having a slower build time or a slower tech path? How do you expect someone to defend Nydus play, when they spot it, if the HP goes up significantly? It's not like a normal drop, where there's only a limited number of slots--and therefore a reinforce rally/warpin can handle business. A Nydus Worm can send in the entire zerg army if it gets up.
Increase Nydus Worm health but decrease the speed at which units exit the Nydus Worm in order to create a bottle neck for the opponent to focus fire the units as they are leaving? Another option is to allow the Nydus Network to spawn multiple Nydus Worms simultaneously so the infiltration of your opponent's base is only limited by your vision and your resources.
I would like to see either a decrease in costs which allows you to use the nydus defensively, especially in lategame or/and the possibilty to be able to cancle the nydus if it gets spotted. I think blizzard has to choose wheter they want the nydus to be a offensive or defensive option in the game and then decide how they buff it. Like i mentioned, i would personally prefer a cheaper version (maybe it would have to be set on creep for that or sth)
Reducing the speed at which units exit is not a good idea, it already is insanely slow ^^
Or bring back Nydus Canal and do "off creep" Nydus play with overlord poop...
On January 23 2013 18:30 ineversmile wrote: And...I hope you guys are watching the GSL again today.
Why are you always refering to WoL? HotS works completly different. Youre just watching some random games and then claim XY is imba/not imba. That is not productive for a discussion at all
On January 23 2013 08:21 DoubleReed wrote: Again, you wouldn't need to nerf it or change anything if you just made it cheaper and put it at Hive-tech...
I always lol when I see zergs saying they can't afford something. I blame it all on idra who plays as greedy as possible, then blames the game and others when it doesn't work out.
You can't afford it? You build 50 spines and 50 spores every late game. Don't sit there and say that you cannot afford it to move from one of your bases to another. Almost every low to mid master I play is sitting on 3-4 k minerals and 1-2 k gas towards the later parts of the MID game.
Once again I blame this all on idra and the people that idolize him. This is the same guy that refused to build spines for defense because "you can't afford it" as zerg. Now every zerg and his mother builds hundreds of these things EVERYWHERE to defend against drops alone.. let alone the middle of the map push.
Like one poster said "he says he can't afford to do it, meanwhile he a moves 40 zlings into forcefields and just stares at it"
On January 23 2013 00:21 Umpteen wrote: Personally - and this is mostly a gut feeling - I never use drops because it feels like I'm just throwing units away to execute a really feeble attack.
When a Terran drops me, it feels like yeah, I appreciate why you're doing that. My base is sparsely populated with low HP, high-value tech structures. You have room to move around, you can snipe something important from range, and if you're paying attention you can leave again because I don't tend to have much anti-air. A drop feels like a smart move.
When a Protoss drops me, I can see the value of that, too. Modest upfront commitment, fast reinforcements if the drop goes well, tough, cheap, high-dps Zealots, and again my base is pretty open for you to move around and snipe stuff. You can also edit the map in real-time and turn my main into an island expansion.
When I think about dropping an opponent, the idea seems really... meh. All that sim-city to try and squeeze past. If there's a single cannon or marine my lings can't reach, their pathing will spaz out and they'll die for nothing. If I send roaches their DPS is terrible. Banelings - ok, but I have to get into the actual mineral line, and it's strictly worker damage only. No tech sniping.
So it's not so much that drops are expensive, more that they feel like a really poor investment. A bit like WoL Hydra: cheaper (and on paper better) than stalkers, but not as good an investment.
And then there's this type of thinking.
Let me ask you something, how often do you see a terran main/nat/third/4th that you can't fly an ovie in with just 4 blings and decimate his entire mineral line?
Most of the time, there's going to be one missile turret in the line.. if that? The only time they'll be more is if you went heavy muta which would discourage trying to do it.
Once you get to the 4th and 5th, sure they're planetarys defending now. I would suggest not a moving the blings and rather targeting the scvs. This is such a cheap move that can be done at any point of the game once the late mid to early late game rolls along. You can do it earlier but it requires you to invest more then obviously.
On January 23 2013 22:33 shivver wrote: I always lol when I see zergs saying they can't afford something. I blame it all on idra who plays as greedy as possible, then blames the game and others when it doesn't work out.
You can't afford it? You build 50 spines and 50 spores every late game. Don't sit there and say that you cannot afford it to move from one of your bases to another. Almost every low to mid master I play is sitting on 3-4 k minerals and 1-2 k gas towards the later parts of the MID game.
Once again I blame this all on idra and the people that idolize him. This is the same guy that refused to build spines for defense because "you can't afford it" as zerg. Now every zerg and his mother builds hundreds of these things EVERYWHERE to defend against drops alone.. let alone the middle of the map push.
Like one poster said "he says he can't afford to do it, meanwhile he a moves 40 zlings into forcefields and just stares at it"
If i do speak about balance i dont mean low-, midmasters or anything below. You can only balance the game according to pro players. I spoke about not being able to afford it in MIDGAME, and no decent player floats ANY gas in midgame. Furthermore youre comparing gas with minerals which is really stupid. A immobile ENDGAME style like BL infestor just requires 50 spines and spores at home because u wont be able to get back with any units to defend harass/counters.Furthermore going Infestor + 3 doesnt allow you to spend any gas in midtier units like roaches or hydras, so you build those mass spines instead of your army. You dont have any clue about what ure talking, seriously. And tell me one zerg here in the thread who refered to idra or idolized him. You dont even write and explain your opinion but write a troll-novel like that? Lol
And then there's this type of thinking.
Let me ask you something, how often do you see a terran main/nat/third/4th that you can't fly an ovie in with just 4 blings and decimate his entire mineral line?
Most of the time, there's going to be one missile turret in the line.. if that? The only time they'll be more is if you went heavy muta which would discourage trying to do it.
Once you get to the 4th and 5th, sure they're planetarys defending now. I would suggest not a moving the blings and rather targeting the scvs. This is such a cheap move that can be done at any point of the game once the late mid to early late game rolls along. You can do it earlier but it requires you to invest more then obviously.
Thats just halfway true. In the endgame i definately agree. Banedrops should be utilized much more often. Still, in the midgame you cant just spend so much gas into drops and banes just for attacking the eco. You can do the same with roach/ling runbys without spending so much time and gas to a techpath. In addition to that a good player SPLITS his scvs before you can baneling drop him. Refering to low level play regards balance doesnt make any sense as i pointed out above. If you really want to commit so much gas during midgame for scv damage you should rather sneak a infestor in if the enemy lacks detection, that would cost less, doesnt take as much time as researching drops and allows you for sure (if there is no detection which u need to scout before) to do damage. A bane drop can work or cant work. 400 gas investment into such a gamble is more than risky in midgame when there will be a 3 base pre-hive timing which u need to stop
On January 23 2013 00:21 Umpteen wrote: Personally - and this is mostly a gut feeling - I never use drops because it feels like I'm just throwing units away to execute a really feeble attack.
When a Terran drops me, it feels like yeah, I appreciate why you're doing that. My base is sparsely populated with low HP, high-value tech structures. You have room to move around, you can snipe something important from range, and if you're paying attention you can leave again because I don't tend to have much anti-air. A drop feels like a smart move.
When a Protoss drops me, I can see the value of that, too. Modest upfront commitment, fast reinforcements if the drop goes well, tough, cheap, high-dps Zealots, and again my base is pretty open for you to move around and snipe stuff. You can also edit the map in real-time and turn my main into an island expansion.
When I think about dropping an opponent, the idea seems really... meh. All that sim-city to try and squeeze past. If there's a single cannon or marine my lings can't reach, their pathing will spaz out and they'll die for nothing. If I send roaches their DPS is terrible. Banelings - ok, but I have to get into the actual mineral line, and it's strictly worker damage only. No tech sniping.
So it's not so much that drops are expensive, more that they feel like a really poor investment. A bit like WoL Hydra: cheaper (and on paper better) than stalkers, but not as good an investment.
And then there's this type of thinking.
Let me ask you something, how often do you see a terran main/nat/third/4th that you can't fly an ovie in with just 4 blings and decimate his entire mineral line?
Most of the time, there's going to be one missile turret in the line.. if that? The only time they'll be more is if you went heavy muta which would discourage trying to do it.
Once you get to the 4th and 5th, sure they're planetarys defending now. I would suggest not a moving the blings and rather targeting the scvs. This is such a cheap move that can be done at any point of the game once the late mid to early late game rolls along. You can do it earlier but it requires you to invest more then obviously.
Most of the time a T/P is going to be in a VERY defensive position against zerg and semiequipped to deal with a sudden mutaliskswitch. Thats how you must play vs Zerg. So yeah, it's actually a pretty raresight to see such dropable locations before the lategame.
On January 23 2013 18:30 ineversmile wrote: And...I hope you guys are watching the GSL again today.
Why are you always refering to WoL? HotS works completly different. Youre just watching some random games and then claim XY is imba/not imba. That is not productive for a discussion at all
You didn't see the game, or you wouldn't be using this argument.
Leenock uses Hydras in ZvT, cross-map, on the biggest map in the universe, then goes for a big drop in the main. The only thing HotS would do to change this is give those Hydras speed so the drop is actually more effective. And if he was worrying about widow mines, too, Leenock easily could have just brought a couple more ovies with him to tank that damage for his drop--he did that already to handle the turrets from the angle he hit.
You should go watch that game, anyways. It's one of the best games of SC2 I've seen since the game came out.
On January 21 2013 05:16 ineversmile wrote: The only thing holding zergs back from nydus/drop play is the zerg players themselves. You want to do use play? Do it. Stop complaining about it. It's only your own fault if you decide not to use 2 major aspects of lair tech, even 30+ minutes into the game when you have 5 bases and infinite money. That's like when Protoss players complain they can't multitask, but don't get warp prisms.
I think after 2+ years of testing an trying to find different ways to make it work outside of an all in, it's clear that Zergs have tried to use it... It's ridiculous that you think Zerg players haven't been trying to find ways to use Nydus since its inception on WoL...
And FYI the Warp Prism started to be use by Protoss more as soon as it got a huge shield buff. Maybe buff Nydus and you'll see more Zerg Nydus play?
the nydus isn't ignored because it's not useful, it's because the opportunity cost of not buying infestors or hive tech is stupidly high
For what it's worth, it is some creative plays that can work quite well.
Back in WOL, I use Nydus worm in a few match ups. Maybe 1 in 10. Mostly to catch the opponent off guard or when I am behind. It is gas expensive and if the other guy caught the worm before it comes up, it is hard to recover. But those that i pull off it work squite well. I am a Diamond player.
EPT
