EPTI feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks.
[D] Current state of nydus-/dropplay - Page 4
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Frostfire
United States419 Posts
I feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 20 2013 04:52 Frostfire wrote: Yesterday I made a thread on reddit about nydus play specifically: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/16rzgh/why_doesnt_nydus_worm_have_a_build_speed_upgrade/ I feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks. Just make Nydus be affected by ground armor upgrades or make separate upgrade, that adds +2 armor for nydus | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Just because zerg doesn't need to use these tools to win games and therefore doesn't usually use them doesn't make them weak or mean they need to be buffed. With 2 upgrades, every single one of your supply providing units that you have no choice but to build anyway becomes a dropship. I mean.... really? Nydus worms and drops seem weak because the zerg army is relatively weak when it's not in the open, and you generally drop or nydus worm into an enclosed area. That's pretty much all there is to it. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 20 2013 04:52 Frostfire wrote: Yesterday I made a thread on reddit about nydus play specifically: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/16rzgh/why_doesnt_nydus_worm_have_a_build_speed_upgrade/ I feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks. Can't be done at the moment. 1-base nydus as a response to FFE is unstoppable if you can't kill it with workers. If you ask me, the problem is definitely not with the durability of the nydus, but how little it really does for the zerg army. You can only unload and load one unit at a time, so they get bottlenecked pretty badly going through nydus (something neither runbys nor drops have issues with). In addition, with the amount of vision possible in the mid- and late-game in SC2, it's WAY too easy to spot a nydus; perhaps a slight decrease in size can make it a little harder to spot. I mean, let's face it, the dot for nukes is like the size of a roach and doesn't show up on the minimap; I'd rather have a "nydus worm detected" alarm and have to find it manually. | ||
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dgwow
Canada1024 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
The nydus worm in its current state must be destroyable by workers, it is a direct two-way teleportation device, it would be like as soon as a toss deploys a warp prism he can teleport his entire army into your base. The only way I see is you can buff a nydus worms strength, is if you add other restrictions (so different types). For example only allow it to be placed on creep. Or if you want it directly into enemies main, only allow it for a one way, limitted number of units. | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
Terran and protoss drops need to move fast because they are harassment, just like hellions or banshees or ling runbys. The dropships or prisms attack at a different point, away from the main army. A zerg drop is not harassment; Overlords move far too slow for that and roaches/lings run much faster than most ground units. The Zerg drop is a devastating attack that always has the potential to go all-in (see Stephano roachling drops) because Zerg will ALWAYS have enough overlords to carry their entire army. (8 supply = 8 spaces) Overlord drop is used as part of the main army, and is very powerful for carrying roach/ling over forcefields and walls, or putting Banelings in the middle of the enemy army. | ||
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FancYCaT
45 Posts
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Silencioseu
Cyprus493 Posts
On January 20 2013 02:29 Jotoco wrote: Don't be ridiculous. Next you're saying the cost of an SCV is 450 because you need a command center... Every game Terrans build Starports. Be it mech or bio. Stargates are not built as often, but you make ridiculous clains. Don't be ridiculous, the only reason terrans build starports is medivacs, else they wouldn't build it at all wouldn't they? Also in MMM comps factory is also useless. | ||
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gCgCrypto
Germany297 Posts
Right now there is this huge pressure to get something to deal witha 3 base colosus push in ZvP that there is simply no time and resource to invest into drops, you need to focus on getting to your anti colo composition. Best thing imo would be to make drop research slightly longer then speed (say 20 ig sec) Also Roaches and Hydras are really supplyinefficient and thus drops as a herras (NOT doomdrops) are very weak. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
I would also consider adding an upgrade to the Network itself which once upgraded allows 2 worms to be placed simultaneously. The upgrade would need to cost 50:50 or 100:50, and would be per network. So to be able to place 4 worms simultaneously you would need a total of 300 gas invested, and it would always be preferable to upgrade an existing network instead of building a new Network building due to the lower gas cost. | ||
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Fen1kz
Russian Federation216 Posts
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bankobauss
204 Posts
network now costs 50/100 (+50 for drone) but has 70 seconds increased buildtime. nydus worms can simply be casted anywhere on the map without vision, if something is blocking the worm, the worm gets automatically placed (pushing the unit) or if a building is there the worm says "cannot be placed" zerg can only own/control one nydus network. if a network is building or exists and zerg tries to build another network, the game says "cannot make more than 1 network" nydus worms have a 60 second cooldown and cost 50/50 to place. when nydus worms are placed it says "nydus worm detected" for the enemy and it pings an area on the map where the worm is. nydus networks and worms are permanently revealed to the enemy always (like buildings after all hatcheries are dead) nydus unload rate increased by 35% nydus network has 1000 increased health (worms health unchanged) a 200/200 upgrade exists at hive which turns all hatcheries/lairs/hives into functioning nydus networks (for base defense) overlord speed reduced to 50/50 cost i feel drops are totally fine. 200/200 to give basically unlimited dropships | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On January 20 2013 05:29 Existor wrote: Just make Nydus be affected by ground armor upgrades or make separate upgrade, that adds +2 armor for nydus If they would make the Worm able to be thrown at your enemy and them needing a fair force to deal with it getting up, then they will probably have to deny the ability to getting multiple Worms up at the same time. I would prefer the Worm staying fragile, maybe even more fragile and make it easier to setup more Networks for a defensive purpose. It would also reward sneakyness and skill more then having a Nydus that takes 1 damage from marines. Which then would allow a Baby to pull a large force of the opponent away even if you put it right into their base, because those things can spit out anything, so if they are up they are a huge threat. On the other hand creep and every Zerg ground unit being fast in general, really reduces the usefulness of a defensive nydus. (except spines and spores who can't enter them and the siegeshroom). The only thing would be for cross posi expansions. But since we have no 4 player maps in sc2 the cross posi expansions will be occupied. With the Hydra getting a Speed upgrade without Creep, it also seems like they will leave the Nydus the way it is. Until they see an opportunity in the metagame to work it into the game. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
The reason people don't use Nydus right now is they don't have a use for it right now. That's pretty much it. When metagame stuff shifts and different strategies pop up Nydus play will be more useful. It's a tool in a toolbox. Find a strategy that uses it well, and you won't find it that weak. | ||
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jbeL
United States13 Posts
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
On January 20 2013 04:52 Frostfire wrote: Yesterday I made a thread on reddit about nydus play specifically: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/16rzgh/why_doesnt_nydus_worm_have_a_build_speed_upgrade/ I feel like nydus worms should get like a +5 armor upgrade or something, so that they don't get killed by half a handful of workers before it's even done, and then zerg has to unload their army 1by1 back into their main when the other player sees the failed nydus and attacks. I think that would be a bit too much, still i wanna go a bit into detail about your idea and what i think about it. I dont think a buff for loading/armor will be enough, its just so expensive to invest 300 gas for 1 nydus attempt and 100 more gas for every next attempt(Why cant we cancle the nydus? Would be still 25gas for every cancle which would feel more right to me). I really feel like the nydus needs to be reworked completly. Maybe they should (in case they buff it) move it even to T3 to not encourage allin heavy play with it. I just can repeat myself, it would be super cool if nydus worms would be used defensively too, its just not possible atm because of the costs. To just add a upgrade for armor or/and loading time it would be even more gimmicky because u would have to pay even more gas Regards the drops: We can argue now wheter the costs should be lowered or not (very different opinions on that so far), but dont you really think that the overlordspeed should be buffed slightly? Just a little bit to compensate for the speedbuffs P/T got. For sure they need to be much slower (because of high HP and because of how doom drops work) than P/T drops but 1.88 speed seems really low to me. I disagree tho for reducing the research time, there are already powerful allins which include drops, reducing the research time could easily lead to imbalance in some situations. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On January 20 2013 10:52 DoubleReed wrote: I'm sorry but drop play is not too weak at all. I use zerg drops all the time. Ling drops are the cheapest things imaginable and yet they can do serious damage. Baneling drop is still awesome (although can be microed against of course). Other units are a bit expensive to use as drops but nonetheless effective. The reason people don't use Nydus right now is they don't have a use for it right now. That's pretty much it. When metagame stuff shifts and different strategies pop up Nydus play will be more useful. It's a tool in a toolbox. Find a strategy that uses it well, and you won't find it that weak. I completely agree. They just don't fit in standard builds that people are using these days (it doesn't help that the dominant strategy is "tech to hive"; Zerg these days isn't about denying economy for your opponent, it's about taking care of yours). I use both a lot more in HotS, both go very well with swarm hosts in particular. I am willing to bet we'll see a lot more of them when HotS comes out. | ||
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