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On January 12 2013 01:35 Markwerf wrote:
There is plenty of time to give terrans something else that offsets this slightly unbalanced TvP endgame.
Rofl ... two months is NOTHING because the stuff they put in has to be tested and lets be honest ... Blizzards track record in the last few months is SERIOUSLY against them.
They didnt even tweak the numbers of the upgrade but removed it completely and that is "balancing with a sledgehammer" and not a chisel. They are seriously off course OR they have something brilliant up their sleeves (which they should have swapped in this patch instead, so they probably dont have any clue again ...).
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I dont play any 1vs1, only teamgames so far in hots, but tbh that upgrade just broke the late game for casual player... I dont expect a upgrade so strong that it suddenly requires exponentially more skill to deal with it . Also medicac itself is broken enough... I have really no idea why medic isnt available in mp instead of medivac...well thats blizzard for me 
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Incredibly biased op (no surprise there, really) with stuff like this:
...as a Terran there's a "we can't have nice things" rule...
I know you're way better than most of us here, Avilo, but most people who at least try to be unbiased saw this as absolutely imbalanced (healing upgrade, that is).
Heck, I'd say the speed booster clicky might even be still too much. Though something like this is needed to give T something that is fun with HotS. And encouraging a drop based style again is a good thing. The clicky does feel too much like a free "get out of jail" card, imo. What about rebuffing the acceleration and speed back to what it was in early WoL, shouldn't that be sufficient?
I agree with the Hellion being bio doesn't sit right - is the battle hellion strong enough now after the recent change? What about siege tanks, I feel the upgrade not being required anymore still feels weird, I'd prefer a damage buff on the siege tank.
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On January 12 2013 03:12 ACrow wrote:Incredibly biased op (no surprise there, really) with stuff like this: I know you're way better than most of us here, Avilo, but most people who at least try to be unbiased saw this as absolutely imbalanced (healing upgrade, that is). Heck, I'd say the speed booster clicky might even be still too much. Though something like this is needed to give T something that is fun with HotS. And encouraging a drop based style again is a good thing. The clicky does feel too much like a free "get out of jail" card, imo. What about rebuffing the acceleration and speed back to what it was in early WoL, shouldn't that be sufficient? I agree with the Hellion being bio doesn't sit right - is the battle hellion strong enough now after the recent change? What about siege tanks, I feel the upgrade not being required anymore still feels weird, I'd prefer a damage buff on the siege tank.
The thing is they didnt even fiddle with the stats of the healing but removed it entirely and if you compare the healing with the speed boost you might notice that one is a rather passive skill which is of no use in a fight itself and the other actually increases the power of fighting units. The offensive stuff usually is more useful.
"we can't have nice things" is only biased if it is NOT TRUE and for this expansion you would be hard pressed to show anything really nice that terrans got.
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first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
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On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
he wanted to buff bio by giving them speed medis.
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On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
That upgrade was just fucking ridiculous.... I'm all for giving medivacs an upgrade to make bio more viable late game vs Zerg. Like what was suggested earlier an upgrade that lets the medivacs shoot two heal beams at a time would be cool, and reduce the effectiveness of OP splash damage in the game. But the upgrade the way they had it needed to go was WAY to strong.
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On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
The emergency thrusters still helps bio lategame. Also, they have reapers now; the gas is almost neglectible lategame since often times terrans have 2000-3000 gas (unless they opt for heavy marauder/ghost/viking/medivac numbers like some terrans, but not all choose that). Hopefully they'll find some harassing role, since it's much easier than loading up marines into medivacs, worrying about where they drop, waiting for them to finish dropping, and then finally stimming them in. And also it's riskier with medivac drops due to things like running into static defense or mutas, etc.
Also, by buffing them this way instead of a healing buff, it doesn't help exclusively bio. Medivac speed helps mech drops too (especially the super strong hellbats, doing 30 damage against workers, always 2 shotting them).
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On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
Its obvious David Kim and Dustin Bowder have no idea how to balance a game. Sometimes I wonder if we got another Diablo 3 fiasco on our hands.
On January 12 2013 03:12 ACrow wrote:Incredibly biased op (no surprise there, really) with stuff like this: I know you're way better than most of us here, Avilo, but most people who at least try to be unbiased saw this as absolutely imbalanced (healing upgrade, that is). Heck, I'd say the speed booster clicky might even be still too much. Though something like this is needed to give T something that is fun with HotS. And encouraging a drop based style again is a good thing. The clicky does feel too much like a free "get out of jail" card, imo. What about rebuffing the acceleration and speed back to what it was in early WoL, shouldn't that be sufficient? I agree with the Hellion being bio doesn't sit right - is the battle hellion strong enough now after the recent change? What about siege tanks, I feel the upgrade not being required anymore still feels weird, I'd prefer a damage buff on the siege tank.
Dont forget, Blizzard needs to tone down Protoss and Zerg aoe as well. Nerf fungal and collosus so protoss and zerg need to do more than just spam spells and amove.
User was warned for this post
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On January 12 2013 04:33 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq? Its obvious David Kim and Dustin Bowder have no idea how to design a game. Sometimes I wonder if we got another Diablo 3 fiasco on our hands. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:12 ACrow wrote:Incredibly biased op (no surprise there, really) with stuff like this: ...as a Terran there's a "we can't have nice things" rule... I know you're way better than most of us here, Avilo, but most people who at least try to be unbiased saw this as absolutely imbalanced (healing upgrade, that is). Heck, I'd say the speed booster clicky might even be still too much. Though something like this is needed to give T something that is fun with HotS. And encouraging a drop based style again is a good thing. The clicky does feel too much like a free "get out of jail" card, imo. What about rebuffing the acceleration and speed back to what it was in early WoL, shouldn't that be sufficient? I agree with the Hellion being bio doesn't sit right - is the battle hellion strong enough now after the recent change? What about siege tanks, I feel the upgrade not being required anymore still feels weird, I'd prefer a damage buff on the siege tank. Dont forget, Blizzard needs to tone down Protoss and Zerg aoe as well. Redesign fungal and collosus so protoss and zerg need to do more than just spam spells and amove. User was warned for this post
FYP. Balancing a game is easy, that's just about tweaking numbers, anyone can do that. Designing a game though, requires a great deal of analytical skills + a great understanding of starcraft 2. I don't want to be a elitilist but honestly most platinum players and below just don't understand Starcraft 2 properly (hint: I am talking about Dustin Browder).
But fungals and collosus shouldn't be nerfed. They should be redesigned so that it required an equal amount of skill to use them and an equal amount of skill to play against them. As long as this isn't the case, then the ability will be badly designed.
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On January 12 2013 04:29 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq? That upgrade was just fucking ridiculous.... I'm all for giving medivacs an upgrade to make bio more viable late game vs Zerg. Like what was suggested earlier an upgrade that lets the medivacs shoot two heal beams at a time would be cool, and reduce the effectiveness of OP splash damage in the game. But the upgrade the way they had it needed to go was WAY to strong.
I understand that a korean terran would have broken the game with it. now the upgrade its just meh, i mean how often do you see no energy medivacs? maybe 1 out of 10 games? so the upgrade itself is nice, but the situation it might get useful does not often occur - thats why i question these changes.
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Bio TvZ is somewhat Z favoured atm if they're competent with spore positioning and actually building more than 2 spores at a given location. The issue still lies in Bio's ability to buffer for important support units like tanks that provide the critical AOE needed. They now die faster than normal (ultras 2 shotting a bunch of marines) and there is alot of loss dps involved when blinding cloud is in play. While i agree the old caduceus reactor is too strong, they should have weakened it's healing rate or have introduced a dual beam variant to improve the bio ball's resistance against said factors.
As of now, mech just seems like a superior option and the weakness of bio in later stages in terms of cost efficiency will probably discourage bio heavy compositions. I hope they reconsider their knee jerk reaction and revisit the changes in a more moderate form. Frankly, i'm sure alot of bio players will agree that slower medivacs (reduced after burner speed/longer cd on ability) is a better trade for improved healing ability if it comes to that. Right now they really are lacking survivability in light of new hots changes.
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I know I'm pretty n00b here, but after playing beta that upgrade was sooooooooo strong.Just my opinion though. Even some terrans I played go "lololol this is funny." Should terran be able to fight the entire game making 3-5 units while protoss at least has to go tier 3 on two tech trees just to fight terrans mmm/ghost/viking combo of doom? Just making discussion.
Again my opinion, but doesn't this upgrade that enables bio to go all game long decrease diversity in terran playstyles or transitions throughout the game? The game would even be more fun to watch if it wasn't "terran opening up bio" and then 45 minutes later "well... he's still bio..." and instead was "he's opening bio" and then 45 minutes later he's on mech or sky units or something? I know terran doesn't tech switch like zerg does, but protoss sort of tech switches and we have to make buildings the same way ish.
Edit: forgot to mention like others, maybe just reduce it to give terran time to transition into something else or make the tech switch?
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On January 12 2013 06:58 BoondockVeritas wrote:
I know I'm pretty n00b here, but after playing beta that upgrade was sooooooooo strong.Just my opinion though. Even some terrans I played go "lololol this is funny." Should terran be able to fight the entire game making 3-5 units while protoss at least has to go tier 3 on two tech trees just to fight terrans mmm/ghost/viking combo of doom? Just making discussion.
Again my opinion, but doesn't this upgrade that enables bio to go all game long decrease diversity in terran playstyles or transitions throughout the game? The game would even be more fun to watch if it wasn't "terran opening up bio" and then 45 minutes later "well... he's still bio..." and instead was "he's opening bio" and then 45 minutes later he's on mech or sky units or something? I know terran doesn't tech switch like zerg does, but protoss sort of tech switches and we have to make buildings the same way ish.
Edit: forgot to mention like others, maybe just reduce it to give terran time to transition into something else or make the tech switch?
BS, terran infrastructure is super expensive + upgrades aren't shared by ground units.
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On January 12 2013 06:58 BoondockVeritas wrote:
I know I'm pretty n00b here, but after playing beta that upgrade was sooooooooo strong.Just my opinion though. Even some terrans I played go "lololol this is funny." Should terran be able to fight the entire game making 3-5 units while protoss at least has to go tier 3 on two tech trees just to fight terrans mmm/ghost/viking combo of doom? Just making discussion.
Again my opinion, but doesn't this upgrade that enables bio to go all game long decrease diversity in terran playstyles or transitions throughout the game? The game would even be more fun to watch if it wasn't "terran opening up bio" and then 45 minutes later "well... he's still bio..." and instead was "he's opening bio" and then 45 minutes later he's on mech or sky units or something? I know terran doesn't tech switch like zerg does, but protoss sort of tech switches and we have to make buildings the same way ish.
Edit: forgot to mention like others, maybe just reduce it to give terran time to transition into something else or make the tech switch?
Heres the thing Terran cant transition from bio to mech to sky you have to choose either bio or mech and if ONLY the game lasts long enough then can you go into sky. Its the way the race was made. Terran has the most upgrades in the game(talking about attack, armor and skills like stim) which is fine because we choose either mech or bio. Going from bio to mech to air is impossible because you would pretty much need to get every upgrade in the game along with having enough buildings producing units.
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My thinking was that the Medivac upgrade was there to off-set the imbalance created by Time Warp + Storm. Since Time Warp got moved to the Mothership/Core its a much more manageable spell for a Terran to counter so the Medivac healing was no longer needed.
Overall, I wasn't happy with how powerful they had made MMM, sure it was nice for TvP but for the other match ups it was too much I felt.
I think Terran is better off without it, provided the Factory continues to receive the attention it needs. The new Seeker Missile is also pretty sexy.
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As a Terran player who loves bio style I loved the upgrade it made late game easier. Bio stle does require the best micro and attention you have to play. I think Terran need something to help them with bio. Maybe adjust the healing rate. Maybe give a special armor boost like combat shields except for every bio unit. As for the battle hellion. It's a car......it's made of metal it shouldn't become bio as a hellbat. The helion is cool to control the space of the map. Also these polls are so close kinda interesting.
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On January 12 2013 02:42 GrazerRinge wrote:I dont play any 1vs1, only teamgames so far in hots, but tbh that upgrade just broke the late game for casual player... I dont expect a upgrade so strong that it suddenly requires exponentially more skill to deal with it . Also medicac itself is broken enough... I have really no idea why medic isnt available in mp instead of medivac...well thats blizzard for me
Say hi to marine split micro; casuals must be having a great time with it when even pros struggle to execute it. Not a fan of the upgrade but late game bio needs SOMETHING; unless we learn to split and stutter step maxed armies simultaneously.
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On January 11 2013 06:52 Zahir wrote:
Problem with this upgrade is it made engagements involving bio super one dimensional, either they apply extreme splash damage and you die or everything they have melts. Forget about roach hydra or gateway units, vs Caduceus bio your only viable strat is collossus/ht/infestor deathball. Essentially reinforcing the hard counter system of sc2 which is already bad and placing too much emphasis on composition and the "one big engagement" rather than micro battles with soft counters. You can't just chip engage, stall out, win with superior micro using weak toss stalkers and shit, etc when the Terran units ade invincible vs non aoe.
Better solution: give Terran some late game stuff that works other than t1 and medivacs with support. Buff mech, make it decimate everything on the ground in late mid game onward when seiged. Make the hellbat not get healed by medivacs and just make it better vs toss somehow. Make mines burrow slower, but shoot faster. Make raven hsm less dumb, have it fly in and stick to a unit and then detonate after a delay. Stuff like that.
I completely agree with this entire post. The problem to begin with was that bio is so strong that it can be your core army composition against everything in all three matchups all the way to late game and still remain useful. It became a bandaid that allowed terrans to keep the winrate fairly balanced even without the use of many of their factory and starport units. The strength of MMM is what has been keeping the other terran units from getting buffed, because they have not been seeing enough use to warrant a response.
The moment that ravens became vital to TvZ lategame we saw seeker missile altered. Why? Because we had proof by statistics that it wasn't too hot in it's current form. The moment that 1/1/1 became the coolest thing there was, the immortal was buffed. Why? Because until then, nobody had really tried to use the immortal much. In retrospect, that is probably the single biggest oversight by protoss for half of WoL.
Long story short: We know bio is powerful enough to win games in WoL. There seems to be no purpose in making them stronger than they already are, if you do it will be a magic bullet. It would be much better to try and improve the viability of other units and unit comps so that we can see if they are also strong enough and if not you buff them.
Blizzard saw a function that did the opposite and actually discouraged mech play and they removed it, rightfully so.
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The medivac upgrade made it so that terran had one of the best army's in the game not only quicker than most other races but it was then also super good late game if the terran player was just bad and couldnt get anything done early game.
It meant that there was no reason to even try and go mech becasue bio was just super good all game long... it made no sense to have it in the game.
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