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On January 11 2013 12:39 iEchoic wrote:
I agree that removing Caduceus Reactor was a terrible change. Adding this upgrade was one of the things they got right in the first place.
Terran doesn't need to save 100/100 when getting siege tanks, Terran needs a late-game equalizer. Caduceus medivacs were the only thing keeping 10-range-nearly-insta fungals and the new ultras in check, as well as the protoss death ball. This change was actually brilliantly designed - it went on a core, high-tech unit, required a high-tech structure, which meant that it altered the core Terran composition without buffing the early or midgame.
Removing this upgrade was not a good decision for a design or game balance perspective.
Please stop buffing ravens, I want a strong core lategame composition, not a gimmick-based lategame.
I don't understand this. The reactor buff was an awkward way of buffing "bio". It makes more sense for them to make the Raven work more like a science vessel; instead of making your core units near-invulnerable to anything less than a face-full of banes or ultras, you get a slow, expensive unit that lets you manage Hive tech, provided they don't get killed trying to do their job. It adds more spice to the lategame, where your opponent must find a way to deal with your raven flock + associated missiles, instead of just throwing another 4 spines at each base.
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On January 11 2013 13:48 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:39 iEchoic wrote:
I agree that removing Caduceus Reactor was a terrible change. Adding this upgrade was one of the things they got right in the first place.
Terran doesn't need to save 100/100 when getting siege tanks, Terran needs a late-game equalizer. Caduceus medivacs were the only thing keeping 10-range-nearly-insta fungals and the new ultras in check, as well as the protoss death ball. This change was actually brilliantly designed - it went on a core, high-tech unit, required a high-tech structure, which meant that it altered the core Terran composition without buffing the early or midgame.
Removing this upgrade was not a good decision for a design or game balance perspective.
Please stop buffing ravens, I want a strong core lategame composition, not a gimmick-based lategame. I don't understand this. The reactor buff was an awkward way of buffing "bio". It makes more sense for them to make the Raven work more like a science vessel; instead of making your core units near-invulnerable to anything less than a face-full of banes or ultras, you get a slow, expensive unit that lets you manage Hive tech, provided they don't get killed trying to do their job. It adds more spice to the lategame, where your opponent must find a way to deal with your raven flock + associated missiles, instead of just throwing another 4 spines at each base.
yes they should look more into the raven right now the hsm is really hard to balance with the dmg/energy cost/splash/delay time bfr moving. i would like to see maybe a spell like... Irradiate from bw
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there had been a few progamers speaking out about the upgrade would get scratched/nerfed heavily
not that surprising to see it getting removed.
sure in theory it should be used against toss late game but if you watch dragon stream, he basically just rush the upgrade pretty early against all 3 races
I am more surprised why void ray hasn't been nerfed yet
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On January 11 2013 13:38 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:58 akademikx wrote:
wait does the upgrade still require a fusion core?
No. Instead of using 3 energy per second, it now uses 1.8 per second. The only thing that got changed was amount of healing which personally I thought was abit imba especially when you needed more dps i.e. a presence of a larger force to take out smaller contingent of a MMM force. The energy cost benefit is still there so it means your medivacs will heal for a longer periods of time. Correct me if Im wrong..
More accurately, it just means that your medivacs have a higher chance of dying when feedbacked.
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On January 11 2013 13:57 Khalleb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 13:48 Ooshmagoosh wrote:On January 11 2013 12:39 iEchoic wrote:
I agree that removing Caduceus Reactor was a terrible change. Adding this upgrade was one of the things they got right in the first place.
Terran doesn't need to save 100/100 when getting siege tanks, Terran needs a late-game equalizer. Caduceus medivacs were the only thing keeping 10-range-nearly-insta fungals and the new ultras in check, as well as the protoss death ball. This change was actually brilliantly designed - it went on a core, high-tech unit, required a high-tech structure, which meant that it altered the core Terran composition without buffing the early or midgame.
Removing this upgrade was not a good decision for a design or game balance perspective.
Please stop buffing ravens, I want a strong core lategame composition, not a gimmick-based lategame. I don't understand this. The reactor buff was an awkward way of buffing "bio". It makes more sense for them to make the Raven work more like a science vessel; instead of making your core units near-invulnerable to anything less than a face-full of banes or ultras, you get a slow, expensive unit that lets you manage Hive tech, provided they don't get killed trying to do their job. It adds more spice to the lategame, where your opponent must find a way to deal with your raven flock + associated missiles, instead of just throwing another 4 spines at each base. yes they should look more into the raven right now the hsm is really hard to balance with the dmg/energy cost/splash/delay time bfr moving. i would like to see maybe a spell like... Irradiate from bw
I don't understand this either. It's not hard to balance. It can be dodged / evaded / mitigated, or dropped altogether by loading the unit into a dropship, so it's OK for it to hit pretty hard for its energy cost. The (old) spell mechanism before they fucked with it for no real reason was just fine, but apparently they didn't think they could simply change range 6 to range 9 / 10 / whatever without putting in this weird gimmicky undodgeable laser-marked thing where it just dies if you move your junk backwards.
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I'm all for bio being made more viable late-game, but that upgrade was definitely not the way to do it. That combined with the booster ability made bio drops way too powerful, at least against zerg.
I have never really agreed with any of avilo's posts :/
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I'm the only one who think that the new battlehellion lost their identity and now is a stupid masseable anti ground 1a unit very similar to the roach?
Is like Blizz gave up with clever mech designs and went back to the magic 1a anti-ground WoL design (roach, marauder, collosi).
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On January 11 2013 13:48 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:39 iEchoic wrote:
I agree that removing Caduceus Reactor was a terrible change. Adding this upgrade was one of the things they got right in the first place.
Terran doesn't need to save 100/100 when getting siege tanks, Terran needs a late-game equalizer. Caduceus medivacs were the only thing keeping 10-range-nearly-insta fungals and the new ultras in check, as well as the protoss death ball. This change was actually brilliantly designed - it went on a core, high-tech unit, required a high-tech structure, which meant that it altered the core Terran composition without buffing the early or midgame.
Removing this upgrade was not a good decision for a design or game balance perspective.
Please stop buffing ravens, I want a strong core lategame composition, not a gimmick-based lategame. I don't understand this. The reactor buff was an awkward way of buffing "bio". It makes more sense for them to make the Raven work more like a science vessel; instead of making your core units near-invulnerable to anything less than a face-full of banes or ultras, you get a slow, expensive unit that lets you manage Hive tech, provided they don't get killed trying to do their job. It adds more spice to the lategame, where your opponent must find a way to deal with your raven flock + associated missiles, instead of just throwing another 4 spines at each base.
Well, I don't agree that it makes your core units near-invincible. Even if it did, that would be a numbers tweak, which would have been fine. If they felt that it was too powerful they should have modified it instead of removing it.
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In my limited experience in the beta the medivac upgrade seemed realllly strong vs zerg so I'm kinda glad they changed it. Not sure that "changed" should mean flat out removed like the way they chose to do it tho...
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On January 10 2013 23:23 avilo wrote:
I'm here to guess what? Spur on some discussion about this.
Blizzard has been known in the past to pretty much ax/kill Terran things
yes, sure. Stopped reading here.
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On January 11 2013 06:52 Zahir wrote:
Problem with this upgrade is it made engagements involving bio super one dimensional, either they apply extreme splash damage and you die or everything they have melts. Forget about roach hydra or gateway units, vs Caduceus bio your only viable strat is collossus/ht/infestor deathball. Essentially reinforcing the hard counter system of sc2 which is already bad and placing too much emphasis on composition and the "one big engagement" rather than micro battles with soft counters. You can't just chip engage, stall out, win with superior micro using weak toss stalkers and shit, etc when the Terran units ade invincible vs non aoe.
Better solution: give Terran some late game stuff that works other than t1 and medivacs with support. Buff mech, make it decimate everything on the ground in late mid game onward when seiged. Make the hellbat not get healed by medivacs and just make it better vs toss somehow. Make mines burrow slower, but shoot faster. Make raven hsm less dumb, have it fly in and stick to a unit and then detonate after a delay. Stuff like that.
You make so much sense that I want to hug you.
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On January 11 2013 10:24 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 06:49 yoigen wrote:
To be honest it was too good before the patch, especially against zerg. Now though you are pretty fucked against 35 dmg ultras. Pretty much stuck going for battle cruiser and yamatoing ultralisk as crazy as that sounds. It might be the only way to deal with any ultralisk composition. Expecially infestor ultralisk.
I find it hilarious when they walk through my minefield, eat a bunch of HSMs and still manage to clear my ground army like it was made of paper :D
Although the Ultralisks are strong now, maybe even too strong, I LOVE seeing them crush faces instead of the standard WoL zerg lategame composition, even if it makes me cry a little how easy it is. Meh, time will tell.
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I really dont like removing totally the upgrade from the game. Maybe it was too strong and needed to be balanced/nerfed a bit.
But it was useful in both TvZ and TvP.
TvZ : ultralisk are really strong now, and the new healing allowed bio/mech to be a bit effective against it. Even vs spread bio + tank line + medivacs, ultra could run in and kill everything despite of kitting... So i aint sure that removing the healing upgrade will help T dealing with ultras in TvZ.
Also, bio against roach/hydra was already tough (and talking about tier, it's tier 1/1,5,2 vs 1/1,5) now without the medivac healing it's gonna be even harder...
TvP : healing upgrade helped against the storm spam/carpet + Colo A move and the zealot warpin when barrack units are producing. Removing it totally make that terran has now to play again at 400 APM in order to sustain/trade evently/not too bad against toss...
I think most of the terran would say that it was too strong, massing medivac and standing right in storm not microing. But removing it (and doing so, removing another of the few terrans changes) when other race have new strategies to work on doesnt seems really fair, nor interesting.
Think the removal is pretty much too fast and doenst take everysingle aspect of the MU.
It actually made TvP late game interesting again for T (maybe it lowered the skill cap... maybe) and decently balanced against Ultras.
Maybe i'm wrong, but that's how i feel
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Like they removed the warhound without further testing/tweaking, they removed the cadeceus reactor without testing/tweaking.
Terran should be used to see such things, but it still hurts everytime this happens.
What i liked with this upgrade was the fact it gave beautiful tankless TvZ macro game. Now bio just get crushed by ultra, thus can't be played lategame.
I do agree that drops were too powerful however. But instead of tweaking the numbers, just removing it (while terran already has not been improved since WoL since the gameplay hasn't change at all) was a terrible idea and gives once again the feeling that terran is being hated by blizzard.
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On January 11 2013 06:27 SheaR619 wrote:
If they had keep time warp in the game I would agree but since timewarp isnt on the oracle anymore, I say removing it was fine.
Time Warp was moved to the mothership core. This is off topic, but I figured it should be clarified.
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I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame.
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On January 12 2013 00:25 avilo wrote:
I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame.
Even with the medivac buff the ultralisk buff still does splash, so any unit not getting healed by a 'vac is going to get wrecked. Don't you think there is a better solution than higher single target hp/s if your concern is splash and aoe? I guess I just don't see how higher single target hp/s is the answer against aoe. so 10-15 of your units survive, they quickly become target fired and still die.
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On January 12 2013 00:30 yourself2k8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 00:25 avilo wrote:
I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame. Even with the medivac buff the ultralisk buff still does splash, so any unit not getting healed by a 'vac is going to get wrecked. Don't you think there is a better solution than higher single target hp/s if your concern is splash and aoe? I guess I just don't see how higher single target hp/s is the answer against aoe. so 10-15 of your units survive, they quickly become target fired and still die.
Ummm...people said the same thing about the baneling and that was all thrown out the window when MKP showed that you could split your units against splash and mitigate most of the damage with good positioning. The problem with ultras is that they take forever to die and with the increased damage do so much damage that you're losing your dps quickly why zerg still retain their dps. This is why with higher healing rate, you can make your units survive longer so that you can take advantage of what bio gives you, more dps, more mobility and the ability to get into a better position, without losing most of your bio in the process.
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On January 12 2013 00:25 avilo wrote:
I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame.
There is plenty of time to give terrans something else that offsets this slightly unbalanced TvP endgame. Medivac heal buff was just not a great way to do it. A simple ghost buff is more elegant for example because that doesn't affect TvZ really.
I had already expected actually that reapers would get some actual endgame use so you could start to mix them in to your composition lategame if you play bio TvP. Their high supply efficiency would automatically offset lategame TvP a bit then. Besides from what I've seen in korea lategame TvP is not that much P favored at all, especially if Ts get better in replacing workers with orbitals as the game progresses.
Same for TvZ endgame by the way but that's so fresh with all the recent changes to that matchup that it's hard to gauge, especially now terran can be super greedy because of easy access to a siege tank early on.. For example it might be much easier to mix in marauders now against ultralisks because the fear of broodlords is lower, fungal got nerfed, HSM got changed again and armor upgrades for air/mech are merged.
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On January 12 2013 00:44 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 00:30 yourself2k8 wrote:On January 12 2013 00:25 avilo wrote:
I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame. Even with the medivac buff the ultralisk buff still does splash, so any unit not getting healed by a 'vac is going to get wrecked. Don't you think there is a better solution than higher single target hp/s if your concern is splash and aoe? I guess I just don't see how higher single target hp/s is the answer against aoe. so 10-15 of your units survive, they quickly become target fired and still die. Ummm...people said the same thing about the baneling and that was all thrown out the window when MKP showed that you could split your units against splash and mitigate most of the damage with good positioning. The problem with ultras is that they take forever to die and with the increased damage do so much damage that you're losing your dps quickly why zerg still retain their dps. This is why with higher healing rate, you can make your units survive longer so that you can take advantage of what bio gives you, more dps, more mobility and the ability to get into a better position, without losing most of your bio in the process.
Isn't it still most effective to stutter step and kite ultras? This by default causes your units to bunch, increasing the effectiveness of splash. If you split against ultras and have 2+ ultra attacking a single bio unit, it gets 1 shot anyway, thus negating the usefulness of the medivac regardless of hp/sec. Its still better to split than to just stand in a clump and get owned, but I'd think stutter step is always better.
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EPT
