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On January 12 2013 21:38 baldgye wrote:
The medivac upgrade made it so that terran had one of the best army's in the game not only quicker than most other races but it was then also super good late game if the terran player was just bad and couldnt get anything done early game.
It meant that there was no reason to even try and go mech becasue bio was just super good all game long... it made no sense to have it in the game.
no what it meant was that bio raped everything that wasn't AOE´.
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I never understood why it was implemented in the first place. The speed boost makes sense, the healing upgrade not so much.
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TvP Lategame with bio is totally imba once Protoss gets a deathball of the following
5 Tempest mixed with Colos, HTs, Archons and Rest in Stalker. Archons used as tanks and you will never ever get in range because you have to dodge storms and colo shots 
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Those who voted no and no must be zergs and protoss....as a bio terran how can you not love this heal upgrade?!?!
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If they promote bio play, mech unitis wont be used
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On January 12 2013 22:48 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 21:38 baldgye wrote:
The medivac upgrade made it so that terran had one of the best army's in the game not only quicker than most other races but it was then also super good late game if the terran player was just bad and couldnt get anything done early game.
It meant that there was no reason to even try and go mech becasue bio was just super good all game long... it made no sense to have it in the game. no what it meant was that bio raped everything that wasn't AOE´.
No, it meant that Bio was raping everything.
A Marine would get healed 15 HP/second and Storm deals damage at a rate of 20HP/second.
That means Marines lose 5HP/second meaning they can withstand 10 seconds of storm, that is 2.5 Storms.
Do you think that is balanced?
A single Marauder and one Medivac are enough to kill off a Colossus.
Why should Bio, that is exceptionally strong against Gateway units as well as Stargate units also be able to deal with the rest of the Protoss units?
How can any of you think it is good game design to have 3 units that, in combination, can deal with everything Protoss can throw at you?
Honestly I am getting more and more disgusted by what Terrans expect their race to be capable of.
In TvP you got:
- More mobility (faster units as well as drops)
- Higher Damage output except Colossi and Storm (you can micro against those, simply stutter stepping actually deals with both decently)
- Cheaper units. (Terran maxes out faster)
- More army supply (MULES)
- Map Control up until lategame (faster maxing, strong against Gatway units and more mobility)
You also expect your army to beat a maxed Toss high end composition?
What is left for Protoss then?
Defensive play leading to a weaker army?
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On January 13 2013 00:26 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 22:48 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 21:38 baldgye wrote:
The medivac upgrade made it so that terran had one of the best army's in the game not only quicker than most other races but it was then also super good late game if the terran player was just bad and couldnt get anything done early game.
It meant that there was no reason to even try and go mech becasue bio was just super good all game long... it made no sense to have it in the game. no what it meant was that bio raped everything that wasn't AOE´. No, it meant that Bio was raping everything. A Marine would get healed 15 HP/second and Storm deals damage at a rate of 20HP/second. That means Marines lose 5HP/second meaning they can withstand 10 seconds of storm, that is 2.5 Storms. Do you think that is balanced? A single Marauder and one Medivac are enough to kill off a Colossus. Why should Bio, that is exceptionally strong against Gateway units as well as Stargate units also be able to deal with the rest of the Protoss units? How can any of you think it is good game design to have 3 units that, in combination, can deal with everything Protoss can throw at you? Honestly I am getting more and more disgusted by what Terrans expect their race to be capable of. In TvP you got: - More mobility (faster units as well as drops) - Higher Damage output except Colossi and Storm (you can micro against those, simply stutter stepping actually deals with both decently) - Cheaper units. (Terran maxes out faster) - More army supply (MULES) - Map Control up until lategame (faster maxing, strong against Gatway units and more mobility) You also expect your army to beat a maxed Toss high end composition? What is left for Protoss then? Defensive play leading to a weaker army?
This is quite untrue... It almost feel you're Z, and have barely any knowledge about how TvP/PvT works...
Mobility wise :Stalkers/chargelot/archon/colossus are decently fast. At least as fast as a bioball moving. The only real slow unit for P is the templar.
Damage output wise: Colossus and storm are good AoE spells. They actually do kill units, whereas EMP does not. Pull back and you're fine. But i guess it's not the place for an EMP vs Storm talk.
Chargelot are actually one the main DPS sources for toss lategame. They can close the distance, force stutter step (= less damage output) + dodging storm/spreading bio is another loss of DPS...
Archon also does splash damage.
What are the terran splash damage units? uh... EMP. And that's about it.
Vikings get useless once colo are sniped, and the toss remax in 2 sec with 40 food worth of zealot...
So i aint so sure about the "higher damage output"
Cheaper unit : that's true for the bio. Medivac ghost and viking are actually pretty expensive. But let's say terran indeed have cheaper units overall.
More army supply : Mules and saccing SCV i presume? Yeah that's true. And even with 30/40 more army supply you can still loose a fight quite easily... Storm and Colo arent that forviging
Map control : there are mostly 3 periods for TvP
1) toss has total control, stalker outruning marines + regen shield, terran has to bunker up and pray to survive any of the many allins toss can throw on 2 gas, which are pretty tough to scout
2) 10/11 minutes, terran can leave his base with medivacs, and take a third. Toss turtling. Not really a big deal, once colos are out, toss can pretty much take a safe third.
3) map control is shared. Cant really give the advantage to the terran or the protoss, it totally depend on the play.
So saying terrans has the total map control whole game is actually false. It's what terran want/aim to do, but it's way trickier to do than to say.
So overall, removing the medivac upgrade just pull back terran to what it already was in WoL.
Being really strong with the medivac timing (which any toss can defend now) and then being really unforgiving if you miss 1 EMP.
The post might/is probably biased since i'm playing terran, and it's probable that protoss have some problems too. But my personnal conviction is that TvP is way more unforgiving for T than it is for P. Maybe because of the warp gate.
"You also expect your army to beat a maxed Toss high end composition?"
Hell yeah, i wish we could. We should be able to.
What does that mean? "if you dont win before i have my super deathball, i'll roll you over and you wont be able to do anything?" Sounds fair...
Ofc we want to be able to beat protoss lategame. It's always easier to turtle than to attack.
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Pls bring back this ability. Mana medivac is useless LOL
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The whole advantage of mech is supposedly to have a positional advantage that if challenged will always leave you trading more than cost efficiently, not counting neat micro tricks of course. The medivac change of course will have no impact on mech builds regarding hellbat because mech is not about sustaining, it's about crushing an army before it reaches you (again not counting micro).
Even if they decided 'well we like the idea of healing mech' and allowed ravens to repair mech it wouldn't matter, the real buff that needs to be done to make mech tvp viable (and i mean actually viable, not viable as a stupid all in again) is to make it do 50 flat damage to everything. Yes this affects tvz and tvt (notably marine/zergling) but both of these situations can be beaten by better micro (OL dropping zerglings, infestor eggs, medivac dropping marines, mule calldowns, nukes etc).
Why they refuse to do the one change that will make TvP mech viable is completely beyond me.
However, it was evident that the medivac change was largely unnecessary, you can play bio all the way through a TvT and still win with just pure mara medivac and intelligent dropping play. If it gets to the point where your every move is crushed by turrets vikings and thors then you can literally go straight sky terran because a pure bio player should always have more bases.
Basically, the medivac upgrade added nothing to the game. Having a good chunk of bio (ex 10 maras) with 10 medivacs meant you were in the fight, and you were going to be in the fight for a LOOOOOOOOONG time coming provided you had an army trade.
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I feel like there should be an upgrade for the medivac that allows it to be used similarly to a science vessel that allows it to heal mech. If you dont give an upgrade like that to the medivac, at least give it to something like the raven.
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The point of that is largely lost, mech is by all means meant to be a stalwart and immobile force that decimates things that come toward it, not the other way around. Mobile healing does absolutely nothing for mech, mech isn't meant to be amoved and rapidly healed, it's meant to kill what comes at it quickly.
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Wow look at all the "NO" responses. those must be Zerg/Protoss users... this is a poor poll. People need to lighten up about the changes, its one thing to say "this change has drastically effected the way that I play the game," instead of, "Blizzard shouldnt make changes like this... My race is so weak now!" Guys, there have to be controls and variables in experiments... That means some things will be left alone and others will be changed for the sake of seeing exactly how it is when they are gone. I know that people think that complaining is one way to get what they want or perhaps to show blizzard they disapprove of the change. But lets be frank here, theyre going to use the hard numbers. If you see it, they likely see it too, so keep it positive!
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On January 11 2013 13:38 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:58 akademikx wrote:
wait does the upgrade still require a fusion core?
No. Instead of using 3 energy per second, it now uses 1.8 per second. The only thing that got changed was amount of healing which personally I thought was abit imba especially when you needed more dps i.e. a presence of a larger force to take out smaller contingent of a MMM force. The energy cost benefit is still there so it means your medivacs will heal for a longer periods of time. Correct me if Im wrong..
LOL no. It's +25 energy. Old caduceus.
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On January 13 2013 05:50 Seinken wrote:
The point of that is largely lost, mech is by all means meant to be a stalwart and immobile force that decimates things that come toward it, not the other way around. Mobile healing does absolutely nothing for mech, mech isn't meant to be amoved and rapidly healed, it's meant to kill what comes at it quickly.
So im going to assume you never played BW.
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On January 13 2013 07:00 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 13:38 YyapSsap wrote:On January 11 2013 12:58 akademikx wrote:
wait does the upgrade still require a fusion core?
No. Instead of using 3 energy per second, it now uses 1.8 per second. The only thing that got changed was amount of healing which personally I thought was abit imba especially when you needed more dps i.e. a presence of a larger force to take out smaller contingent of a MMM force. The energy cost benefit is still there so it means your medivacs will heal for a longer periods of time. Correct me if Im wrong.. LOL no. It's +25 energy. Old caduceus.
No, it isn't.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Medivac_(Heart_of_the_Swarm)
"Researched from: Tech Lab
Requires: Fusion Core
Energy cost reduced from 3 health per 1 energy to 5 health per 1 energy."
The only thing the last patch changed was:
"No longer improves the healing rate of Medivacs.
Upgrade cost decreased from 150/150 and 110 seconds to 100/100 and 80 seconds."
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EPT
