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I'm here to guess what? Spur on some discussion about this.
Blizzard has been known in the past to pretty much ax/kill Terran things (it happens unintentionally or not) and the new medivac healing rate upgrade was most recently flat out removed...
What did people think of this?
For me personally, I loved this upgrade because it allowed me to play bio into lategame against Protoss on even footing vs mass AOE splash, as well as help mitigate their new threats...
TvP bio vs Protoss in lategame in wings of liberty suffers from the good ol "mass warp-in chargelots" type of thing and suffers from AOE damage quite a bit.
This new upgrade was great for bio lategame and is now gone with the reasoning "we wanted medivacs to be used with hellbats..."
I think there is a disconnect here. Blizzard is hell bent driven on people using a MECH UNIT, the battle hellion, as a bio unit, and according to David Kim they axed this upgrade because they "didn't expect people to use the healing upgrade with marine marauder" my response to that is, "wat the?"
I have played both mech and bio styles against Protoss before. For obvious reasons, bio is the go-to, but the reasoning for them removing this, that "we wanted you to use it with a mech unit, the battle hellion" just seems really bad reasoning to me.
I know as a Terran there's a "we can't have nice things" rule apparently in place, but who would love that they put this back into the game? I would love it, and I'm one of the most hardcore "i want mech to be viable" guys out there.
The thing is, bio is fun as well to watch/play, and it'd be great if they made that more viable in lategame too...which is sorta what the medivac healing upgrade did...
Poll: Did you like the medivac healing rate upgrade?No (245) 52% Yes (230) 48% 475 total votes Your vote: Did you like the medivac healing rate upgrade? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Would you like to see this upgrade put back into the game?No (236) 52% Yes (219) 48% 455 total votes Your vote: Would you like to see this upgrade put back into the game? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Considering all of the new toys the other races have gotten, it'd be great if Terran had some too (and kept them for more than 1 patch where it's immediately nerfed/removed from the game 
Additional poll:
Poll: Revert battle hellion to being a MECH UNIT?Yes (232) 64% God Yes (77) 21% No (55) 15% 364 total votes Your vote: Revert battle hellion to being a MECH UNIT? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): God Yes
(Vote): No
And yes, the last poll is a loaded question :D it's just silly that D Kim is latching onto this idea of making a mech unit into a bio unit and this fantastical world where everyone masses hellions and medivacs together.
Discuss!
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Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs.
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On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs.
For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless.
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Your third poll shouldnt have 3 answers, it makes it look ridicoulus. Bio is made to be mobile, it shouldnt win against death balls, it should force the enemy to split his army smart and make them get destroyed by bio because the armys are smaller now. That,s why the movement speed boost is good but the healing rate bad.
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On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless.
Not really, it still decreases the amount of energy needed to heal your units making your medivac longer useful. It is by no means useless.
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On January 10 2013 23:31 D4V3Z02 wrote:
Your third poll shouldnt have 3 answers, it makes it look ridicoulus. Bio is made to be mobile, it shouldnt win against death balls, it should force the enemy to split his army smart and make them get destroyed by bio because the armys are smaller now. That,s why the movement speed boost is good but the healing rate bad.
Bio did not win against deathballs 1A vs 1A. It gave you slightly more leeway lategame to make a mistake, just like Protoss has that leeway with mass warpgated chargelot/archon reinforcements.
In my opinion it made it so when suddenly those 10-20 zealots warp-in after a battle, and you have your few remaining units, it's not an insta-loss anymore...and perhaps this is what players were not used to.
Everyone is used to, "oh i won the battle, ZZ ZZ ZZZZZZ *warps in units right there* *wins*"
Whereas the medivac healing rate upgrade gave Terran bio something lategame where Protoss could not necessarily do that as easily anymore. Instead they'd have to warp-in back home.
Just my thoughts. It was only given 2 patches before they removed it with suspect reasoning.
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United States4883 Posts
In defense of bio versus mass zealot warpins in the lategame: the new hellions make zealots LOL, so I actually don't mind it as much. As long as you're fairly equal on upgrades and have a SINGLE reactor factory, you can have 4+ hellions out for the zealot warpin. 4 hellions practically one-shot clumps of zealots.
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I think it was removed because MMM against Zerg was way too imbalanced in the lategame. Think about it, a Terran should NEVER be able to go MMM against Zerg hive units and win; marines and marauders are tier1 units, but yet were keeping up with brood lord/ultralisk/infestor compositions because the medivacs kept any bio units from ever dying. I dont care about the matchup or race involved, tier1 units should get wrecked by tier3 units on a cost-efficiency basis in a straight-up fight. No exceptions.
EDIT: That being said, to keep on topic, I think the improved healing rate upgrade should be reinstated, just toned down a little bit. Also the cooldown ability seriously f***ing needs to cost energy or have a longer cooldown. Refer to other threads as to why, but it needs to happen.
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Blizzards reasoning aside the upgrade was simply too good.
When terrans are starting to skip ghosts in favor of more medivacs despite heavy storm use you know things have gone too far.
Putting too much focus on bio was also a poor idea. It only makes sense given how misguided their attempts to make mech work are so far.
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I liked the upgrade, I just thought the numbers were too high. Would have rather seen Blizzard tone down the numbers slightly, or get rid of the increased healing per energy first.
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No! Didn't like the upgrade...it made the target of the heal too beefy...What I'd like to see are two upgrades for medivacs.
One that allows the medivac to heal two units at once (still same energy cost/hp healed though, so double energy cost when two beams are active)
One that increases the energy regen of medivacs
Should increase the efficiency of medivacs together with large bio forces quite a bit without turning high armor ground targets nigh invincible.
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I don't agree with you but I agree that battlefield warp in is too good. Units should receive 50% more damage during warpin.
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I always thought the upgrade should have been Advanced Healing AI- instead of doubling the rate, give the Medivac two normal heal beams.
That's better for surviving AoE and worse for... keeping 1 marine alive between two mineral patches.
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I think it was definitely too strong, however now it's just useless. It's never an issue in the lategame having enough Medivac energy, this just makes feedback worse :D
Instead it should maybe be stronger but more expensive heal, or perhaps it now can heal beam two units at the same time.
Also i want to address the fact that the Fusion Core is actually an upgrader for fleet armies, which means there should be more upgrades on it, rather than just Battle Cruiser upgrades, instead of having Fusion Core allows for your Tech Lab to upgrade Medivac healing, it should instead be an upgrade on Fusion Core itself.
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I liked how the new medivac sort of balanced out lategame bio vs P. It's good if T doesn't have the feeling of being on a clock too much and the lategame scenario is sort of balanced.
I don't like this being done by a medivac buff though. The unit is already crazy strong with the new thrusters and even good for mech now.. The effects on TvP were fine but for TvZ it was a bit too good making those late drops rediculously strong, especially now with the nerfed infestor.
A different small buff to bio lategame would be better I think. Preferrably something gas intensive so bio play actually has a use for extra gas unlike the almost pure mineral usage they have now. For example ghosts, ravens or battlecruisers could be buffed to be just a tad better lategame. Ghosts a bit of extra hp / dmg, ravens might already be useful now or battlecruisers could have their anti-ground damage buffed a bit to early WoL levels.
This would pretty much have the same effect as the medivac buff for TvP i think but wouldn't make drops so rediculously strong in TvZ
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On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless.
What about non-intensive purposes?
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Have people calling it worthless actually tested it or just assuming that?
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On January 11 2013 02:19 FLuE wrote:
Have people calling it worthless actually tested it or just assuming that?
Assuming. The patch has been out for a day and no one has gotten the full breath of the changes yet. It is a less in your face upgrade and make fewer medivacs more effective at healing large groups. It is not something that is going to noticable up in the first 10 games you play.
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On January 11 2013 02:15 Jackle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless. What about non-intensive purposes?
I know you are making a funny, but his misuse of the expression actually makes some sense here. Useless for intensive purposes, as it won't help you in a fight, but not for non-intensive purposes since medivac downtime is shortened.
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Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? You don't do that. Their method is just outright nonsensical.
Just make hellbat mechanical only. Medivac can still heal marauders and marines in your comp, and hellbat doesn't need to be healed. Why they just don't get it.
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On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote:
Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? Their method is just outright nonsensical.
It's a beta. They are testing things.
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I'm fine with a buff to bio or an upgrade... But I want something with allows (and encourages) Terrans to build fewer Medivacs. As a spectator, I just can't stand games where the Terran has like 10 Medivacs floating above his army covering everything up.
The other thing is that stim isn't much of a decision. You always use it, and you never worry about running out of healing energy, or anything like that.
I liked the speed thing for Medivacs.
The whole bio hellbat thing is just dumb, though.
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On January 11 2013 02:40 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote:
Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? Their method is just outright nonsensical. It's a beta. They are testing things.
they shouldnt change the game so drastic when the launch is in 2 month, u know? time to get the balance right with small changes, to get hots release ready
if the pros always have to create new bos or have to adapt to something new after a huge new patch , they cant play the game properly and find the small(or mayb big? ) balance issues
and btw the medivac upgrade is now even more worse than in WOL cauz its in fusion core and all it does is give +25 startings energy same as in WOL
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On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote:
Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? You don't do that. Their method is just outright nonsensical.
Just make hellbat mechanical only. Medivac can still heal marauders and marines in your comp, and hellbat doesn't need to be healed. Why they just don't get it.
For fun gameplay it was a good decision though because it makes medivacs and thus drop play useful with mech promoting more active and fun gameplay. Without a use for the heal effect the dropship would simply suck too much for mech and hardly be used leading to boring mechplay. They shouldn't have gone for the medivac in the first place imo but just for the plain old medic and a separate dropship because dropplay should be good in all styles, the game should promote and reward difficult multitasking play. Now they went for the ugly fix of letting dropships 'heal' mech too
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On January 11 2013 02:54 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:40 gedatsu wrote:On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote:
Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? Their method is just outright nonsensical. It's a beta. They are testing things. they shouldnt change the game so drastic when the launch is in 2 month, u know? time to get the balance right with small changes, to get hots release ready if the pros always have to create new bos or have to adapt to something new after a huge new patch , they cant play the game properly and find the small(or mayb big? ) balance issues and btw the medivac upgrade is now even more worse than in WOL cauz its in fusion core and all it does is give +25 startings energy same as in WOL
No it is not the same as in WOL. It increased hitpoints/enegry rate by a crazy amount, so fewer medivacs heal more things.
Also, the WoL beta was the exact same way. They had 6 balance patches two months before release with whole spells being removed and added two months before launch. The game will not be perfect at launch, takes time.
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On January 11 2013 03:12 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote:
Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? You don't do that. Their method is just outright nonsensical.
Just make hellbat mechanical only. Medivac can still heal marauders and marines in your comp, and hellbat doesn't need to be healed. Why they just don't get it. For fun gameplay it was a good decision though because it makes medivacs and thus drop play useful with mech promoting more active and fun gameplay. Without a use for the heal effect the dropship would simply suck too much for mech and hardly be used leading to boring mechplay. They shouldn't have gone for the medivac in the first place imo but just for the plain old medic and a separate dropship because dropplay should be good in all styles, the game should promote and reward difficult multitasking play. Now they went for the ugly fix of letting dropships 'heal' mech too
Ugly fix. That's the words i'm looking for.
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Nothing changed for Protoss that made it easier to defend drops before they did damage, and with the increased healing rate you pretty much had to spend double to defend. Also, this shit made late game so hard for P because our only mineral dump, zealots, were even more worthless than before.
Good change imo, am I wrong?
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option 1.
leave cadu healing in game
korean break game with it
everything else about terran ever nerfed
option 2
remove it
going with 2 so i dont have to go with 1
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I liked the upgrade but it needed to be nerfed some. drops would be pretty ridiculous with it. and lings were made pretty worthless later on
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On January 10 2013 23:59 FS_SlimJim wrote:
I think it was removed because MMM against Zerg was way too imbalanced in the lategame. Think about it, a Terran should NEVER be able to go MMM against Zerg hive units and win; marines and marauders are tier1 units, but yet were keeping up with brood lord/ultralisk/infestor compositions because the medivacs kept any bio units from ever dying. I dont care about the matchup or race involved, tier1 units should get wrecked by tier3 units on a cost-efficiency basis in a straight-up fight. No exceptions.
EDIT: That being said, to keep on topic, I think the improved healing rate upgrade should be reinstated, just toned down a little bit. Also the cooldown ability seriously f***ing needs to cost energy or have a longer cooldown. Refer to other threads as to why, but it needs to happen.
honestly that logic is SO stupid - it just does not make sense. Just because it is a tier 1 unit it should be auto lose everytime vs tier 3 units. Think about it, if terran masses thors or even bc's, which are both tier 3 units, what will zerg to do counter it? Infestors, roaches, lings and vs BC corrupters. None of those units are tier 3, and they all RAPE those terran units.
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they should've just tweaked the numbers, rather than removing things.
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On January 11 2013 00:02 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I liked the upgrade, I just thought the numbers were too high. Would have rather seen Blizzard tone down the numbers slightly, or get rid of the increased healing per energy first.
This. It was way to good, but it could have just been nerfed or something instead of complete removal. It was a bit of a joke when quiet a few lings with a couple banes couldn't deal with 1 medivac cause the units refused to die if they sniped the banes :D
I can only imagine tvp 
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United States7483 Posts
On January 10 2013 23:33 Seiniyta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless. Not really, it still decreases the amount of energy needed to heal your units making your medivac longer useful. It is by no means useless.
Well, it's useless if you're playing turtle bio and never engaging, but if you're playing bio with a constantly aggressive style and your medivacs are usually running close to empty and struggling to keep up with the healing that your drug induced coma is forcing them to deal with, then yes, this upgrade will make a big difference.
The upgrade was removed because it made drops too effective and efficient. It was killing mech in TvT, among other things. Apparently blizzard's intent with the upgrade was to use it to help hellbats tank better (go figure) but nobody cared and used it to make marine/marauder even scarier. They didn't want that so they reverted it to a less ridiculous upgrade.
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On January 11 2013 04:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 00:02 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I liked the upgrade, I just thought the numbers were too high. Would have rather seen Blizzard tone down the numbers slightly, or get rid of the increased healing per energy first. This. It was way to good, but it could have just been nerfed or something instead of complete removal. It was a bit of a joke when quiet a few lings with a couple banes couldn't deal with 1 medivac cause the units refused to die if they sniped the banes :D I can only imagine tvp
that's why I said to adjust the numbers instead of removing a whole portion of a upgrade that was one of the only reasons one would probably get it in the first place/etc.
On January 11 2013 04:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:33 Seiniyta wrote:On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless. Not really, it still decreases the amount of energy needed to heal your units making your medivac longer useful. It is by no means useless. Well, it's useless if you're playing turtle bio and never engaging, but if you're playing bio with a constantly aggressive style and your medivacs are usually running close to empty and struggling to keep up with the healing that your drug induced coma is forcing them to deal with, then yes, this upgrade will make a big difference. The upgrade was removed because it made drops too effective and efficient. It was killing mech in TvT, among other things. Apparently blizzard's intent with the upgrade was to use it to help hellbats tank better (go figure) but nobody cared and used it to make marine/marauder even scarier. They didn't want that so they reverted it to a less ridiculous upgrade.
not...really
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Although this upgrade was bitch to fight against, as a Zerg player.
I liked it, it added depth to the game. And I felt it was necessary to combat the new ultralisks/hydralisks/infestor combo that Zerg tend to make late game versus bio.
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In all honesty I'd like to have seen it changed from a heal buff to a multiple unit heal of sorts (I know this has been suggested before). At least then it would fit the bill of helping bio against splash instead of just making the 8-10 units the medivacs are healing nearly impossible to kill.
Keep in mind the the medivac still had a base hp/sec buff as part of the patch that WASNT removed. So its not a total loss.
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If they had keep time warp in the game I would agree but since timewarp isnt on the oracle anymore, I say removing it was fine.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 11 2013 04:40 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 04:23 blade55555 wrote:On January 11 2013 00:02 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I liked the upgrade, I just thought the numbers were too high. Would have rather seen Blizzard tone down the numbers slightly, or get rid of the increased healing per energy first. This. It was way to good, but it could have just been nerfed or something instead of complete removal. It was a bit of a joke when quiet a few lings with a couple banes couldn't deal with 1 medivac cause the units refused to die if they sniped the banes :D I can only imagine tvp that's why I said to adjust the numbers instead of removing a whole portion of a upgrade that was one of the only reasons one would probably get it in the first place/etc. Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 04:27 Whitewing wrote:On January 10 2013 23:33 Seiniyta wrote:On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless. Not really, it still decreases the amount of energy needed to heal your units making your medivac longer useful. It is by no means useless. Well, it's useless if you're playing turtle bio and never engaging, but if you're playing bio with a constantly aggressive style and your medivacs are usually running close to empty and struggling to keep up with the healing that your drug induced coma is forcing them to deal with, then yes, this upgrade will make a big difference. The upgrade was removed because it made drops too effective and efficient. It was killing mech in TvT, among other things. Apparently blizzard's intent with the upgrade was to use it to help hellbats tank better (go figure) but nobody cared and used it to make marine/marauder even scarier. They didn't want that so they reverted it to a less ridiculous upgrade. not...really
One of the major complaints about the upgrade was that it was absurdly hard for a mech player in TvT to deal with drops because the units just don't die, and it thus became too easy to split the mech player apart because of how many units he has to commit to each location to deal with multi-pronged aggression. The speed boost dealt with static defense too easily as well.
I will agree that Blizzard too often just removes upgrades or units instead of tweaking them. Remember when Khaydarin amulet got pulled and a lot of people wanted it to be an energy regen increase upgrade instead? Or how about when flux vanes got yanked entirely with no tweaks at all?
That said, I still think the new caduceus reactor is a good upgrade and much better than the old version. There are tons of games, especially PvT, where the terran player is running super low on medivac energy and can't stim because he can't heal his bio. Making the medivacs use less energy to heal is a big help in those situations.
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I agree that David Kim's reasoning of "we didn't expect is to be used with marines and marauders" is baffling, the fuck did you think it was going to be used for?
I'm happy they removed the upgrade though. As a mech'ing player it was a bitch to defend drops with 2 super medivacs and marauders...they just don't die.
EDIT: now if they did the right thing and buffed Tanks, it would probably be fine to keep the upgrade.
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To be honest it was too good before the patch, especially against zerg. Now though you are pretty fucked against 35 dmg ultras.
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Problem with this upgrade is it made engagements involving bio super one dimensional, either they apply extreme splash damage and you die or everything they have melts. Forget about roach hydra or gateway units, vs Caduceus bio your only viable strat is collossus/ht/infestor deathball. Essentially reinforcing the hard counter system of sc2 which is already bad and placing too much emphasis on composition and the "one big engagement" rather than micro battles with soft counters. You can't just chip engage, stall out, win with superior micro using weak toss stalkers and shit, etc when the Terran units ade invincible vs non aoe.
Better solution: give Terran some late game stuff that works other than t1 and medivacs with support. Buff mech, make it decimate everything on the ground in late mid game onward when seiged. Make the hellbat not get healed by medivacs and just make it better vs toss somehow. Make mines burrow slower, but shoot faster. Make raven hsm less dumb, have it fly in and stick to a unit and then detonate after a delay. Stuff like that.
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I watched drewbie use imbavacs+hellbats a couple of times on stream. He commented about how they never die :D. The healing speed change really looked like it would help boost T in lategame TvP by reducing P's DPS to compensate for their much higher army HP & armor. But I thought it might have gone too far.
The new hellbat change seems to make chargelots a lot weaker in the lategame, which minimizes the the protoss "oh look, I just slightly lost this fight. Oh look, now I have 24 supply of zealots that wreck the handful of bio units" effect.
I think mass archon is still the counter to pure mech play. But I still think you'll need ghosts in TvP. It's possible bio + hellbats + a handful of hellions to snipe templar can do the trick without ghosts, but it'd be tricky.
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Before people were complaining that the hellbat wasn't enough of a new unit and all terran goes for is bio. Now they are specifically trying to encourage hellbat use and give it a role in many different compositions, and you complain how you cant go WOL bio style well enough.
Their goal of making the hellbat a good meatshield is great, its exactly what terran needs in both mech and bio. Their method of giving it the bio tag is inelegant, but if it works, then great.
All you ever do is complain Avilo.
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On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless.
For all intents purposes?
and to the guy above me, no.
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On January 11 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:54 Killmouse wrote:On January 11 2013 02:40 gedatsu wrote:On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote:
Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? Their method is just outright nonsensical. It's a beta. They are testing things. they shouldnt change the game so drastic when the launch is in 2 month, u know? time to get the balance right with small changes, to get hots release ready if the pros always have to create new bos or have to adapt to something new after a huge new patch , they cant play the game properly and find the small(or mayb big? ) balance issues and btw the medivac upgrade is now even more worse than in WOL cauz its in fusion core and all it does is give +25 startings energy same as in WOL No it is not the same as in WOL. It increased hitpoints/enegry rate by a crazy amount, so fewer medivacs heal more things. Also, the WoL beta was the exact same way. They had 6 balance patches two months before release with whole spells being removed and added two months before launch. The game will not be perfect at launch, takes time.
and do u think it was the right way for them to balance that way?
5 rax reaper, always 1 base play, proxy 2 rax, banelingbusts, 4 gate ?
i think this is the wrong approach to balance a game, when the game is released the game should already be roughly balanced
and i dont know what u guys are talkin??
look it says starting energy raised by 25 energy so same as in WOL ...
+ Show Spoiler +
bug or what?
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Urm I was just wondering and it hit me:
How is the Hellbat(as a unit on its own) different from the WoL campaign Firebat?
Bonus against Light. Check.
High armour. Check.
High hp. Check.
AoE melee-ranged attack. Check.
Biological(can be healed). Check.
Are we moving backwards now???
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On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote:
Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless.
It's "intents and purposes", fyi.
I'm guessing everyone will skip getting it once again and that they'll buff it in the next patch because no one is using it.
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another useless upgrade/unit in the terran arsenal
zzz
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On January 11 2013 09:10 NeWnAr wrote:
Urm I was just wondering and it hit me:
How is the Hellbat(as a unit on its own) different from the WoL campaign Firebat?
Bonus against Light. Check.
High armour. Check.
High hp. Check.
AoE melee-ranged attack. Check.
Biological(can be healed). Check.
Are we moving backwards now???
Hence the name hellbat and all the hilarity when that was changed.
I can't even remember the previous name :O
battle hellion? battle mode hellion?
whatever >.>
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What i really liked with this upgrade, was the fact that in TvP toss had to make the desicion if storm or feedback would be more appropriate in different fights. Although i agree that it should be toned down a bit.
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On January 11 2013 06:49 yoigen wrote:
To be honest it was too good before the patch, especially against zerg. Now though you are pretty fucked against 35 dmg ultras.
Pretty much stuck going for battle cruiser and yamatoing ultralisk as crazy as that sounds. It might be the only way to deal with any ultralisk composition. Expecially infestor ultralisk.
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On January 11 2013 10:24 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 06:49 yoigen wrote:
To be honest it was too good before the patch, especially against zerg. Now though you are pretty fucked against 35 dmg ultras. Pretty much stuck going for battle cruiser and yamatoing ultralisk as crazy as that sounds. It might be the only way to deal with any ultralisk composition. Expecially infestor ultralisk.
Wouldn't infestors just mind control ur BCs?
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On January 11 2013 10:59 NeWnAr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 10:24 SheaR619 wrote:On January 11 2013 06:49 yoigen wrote:
To be honest it was too good before the patch, especially against zerg. Now though you are pretty fucked against 35 dmg ultras. Pretty much stuck going for battle cruiser and yamatoing ultralisk as crazy as that sounds. It might be the only way to deal with any ultralisk composition. Expecially infestor ultralisk. Wouldn't infestors just mind control ur BCs?
Pretty hard to mind control BC. Besides, zerg would rather fungal anyways and if it get to the point where he has enough infestor to fungal and Mine control all your bc, then you already lost the game a long time ago. I mean just get a few BC to yamato ultralisk. I saw thorzain do it against Catz. I dont see any better option against ultralisk.
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On January 11 2013 09:10 NeWnAr wrote:
Urm I was just wondering and it hit me:
How is the Hellbat(as a unit on its own) different from the WoL campaign Firebat?
Bonus against Light. Check.
High armour. Check.
High hp. Check.
AoE melee-ranged attack. Check.
Biological(can be healed). Check.
Are we moving backwards now???
Well, only one of them transforms into a car.
More specifically, the new Hellbat is quite a bit nastier than the campaign Firebat:
Cost: 100/0 vs 100/25
Damage: 18(+12 vs Light) vs 8(+4)
DPS: 9(+6) vs 5.7(+2.9)
HP: 135 vs 100
Armor: 0 vs 1
Range: 2 vs 2
So it's cheaper, does way more damage, has more HP, and is not armored.
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Late game TvP bio was REALLY helped out by this upgrade. If two maxed armies collide in center of map, both can remax, but the difference is terran supply is still being made in the rax while toss supply is already in the field. This helped Terrans keep units alive during big fights, and let them hold long enough for reinforcements to deal with warp-ins.
This upgrade was also a direct response to the fact that ultras deal full damage to all armor types now. +1
I didn't like it at first, since it was immediately available and only helped terran mid-game, where they were already strong. The fusion core attachment I thought was great, as it became specific as a late game buff to bio.
I DONT GIVE A $#@! ABOUT MAKING MEDIVACS WITH MY MECH. They are not dropships, I dont need to or want to build them when I go mech. Diverting gas away from my factories just to make my firebats last a little longer is not incentive enough for me.
If nothing else I would like to see (or at least try) medivacs dual-healing as an upgrade from campaign. Fusion core attachment.
Otherwise, bring back Caduceaus.
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On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote:
Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? You don't do that. Their method is just outright nonsensical.
Just make hellbat mechanical only. Medivac can still heal marauders and marines in your comp, and hellbat doesn't need to be healed. Why they just don't get it.
Stop rambling, your post is nonsensical.
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I agree that removing Caduceus Reactor was a terrible change. Adding this upgrade was one of the things they got right in the first place.
Terran doesn't need to save 100/100 when getting siege tanks, Terran needs a late-game equalizer. Caduceus medivacs were the only thing keeping 10-range-nearly-insta fungals and the new ultras in check, as well as the protoss death ball. This change was actually brilliantly designed - it went on a core, high-tech unit, required a high-tech structure, which meant that it altered the core Terran composition without buffing the early or midgame.
Removing this upgrade was not a good decision for a design or game balance perspective.
Please stop buffing ravens, I want a strong core lategame composition, not a gimmick-based lategame.
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wait does the upgrade still require a fusion core?
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On January 11 2013 12:58 akademikx wrote:
wait does the upgrade still require a fusion core?
No. Instead of using 3 energy per second, it now uses 1.8 per second. The only thing that got changed was amount of healing which personally I thought was abit imba especially when you needed more dps i.e. a presence of a larger force to take out smaller contingent of a MMM force. The energy cost benefit is still there so it means your medivacs will heal for a longer periods of time.
Correct me if Im wrong..
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On January 11 2013 12:39 iEchoic wrote:
I agree that removing Caduceus Reactor was a terrible change. Adding this upgrade was one of the things they got right in the first place.
Terran doesn't need to save 100/100 when getting siege tanks, Terran needs a late-game equalizer. Caduceus medivacs were the only thing keeping 10-range-nearly-insta fungals and the new ultras in check, as well as the protoss death ball. This change was actually brilliantly designed - it went on a core, high-tech unit, required a high-tech structure, which meant that it altered the core Terran composition without buffing the early or midgame.
Removing this upgrade was not a good decision for a design or game balance perspective.
Please stop buffing ravens, I want a strong core lategame composition, not a gimmick-based lategame.
I don't understand this. The reactor buff was an awkward way of buffing "bio". It makes more sense for them to make the Raven work more like a science vessel; instead of making your core units near-invulnerable to anything less than a face-full of banes or ultras, you get a slow, expensive unit that lets you manage Hive tech, provided they don't get killed trying to do their job. It adds more spice to the lategame, where your opponent must find a way to deal with your raven flock + associated missiles, instead of just throwing another 4 spines at each base.
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On January 11 2013 13:48 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:39 iEchoic wrote:
I agree that removing Caduceus Reactor was a terrible change. Adding this upgrade was one of the things they got right in the first place.
Terran doesn't need to save 100/100 when getting siege tanks, Terran needs a late-game equalizer. Caduceus medivacs were the only thing keeping 10-range-nearly-insta fungals and the new ultras in check, as well as the protoss death ball. This change was actually brilliantly designed - it went on a core, high-tech unit, required a high-tech structure, which meant that it altered the core Terran composition without buffing the early or midgame.
Removing this upgrade was not a good decision for a design or game balance perspective.
Please stop buffing ravens, I want a strong core lategame composition, not a gimmick-based lategame. I don't understand this. The reactor buff was an awkward way of buffing "bio". It makes more sense for them to make the Raven work more like a science vessel; instead of making your core units near-invulnerable to anything less than a face-full of banes or ultras, you get a slow, expensive unit that lets you manage Hive tech, provided they don't get killed trying to do their job. It adds more spice to the lategame, where your opponent must find a way to deal with your raven flock + associated missiles, instead of just throwing another 4 spines at each base.
yes they should look more into the raven right now the hsm is really hard to balance with the dmg/energy cost/splash/delay time bfr moving. i would like to see maybe a spell like... Irradiate from bw
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there had been a few progamers speaking out about the upgrade would get scratched/nerfed heavily
not that surprising to see it getting removed.
sure in theory it should be used against toss late game but if you watch dragon stream, he basically just rush the upgrade pretty early against all 3 races
I am more surprised why void ray hasn't been nerfed yet
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On January 11 2013 13:38 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:58 akademikx wrote:
wait does the upgrade still require a fusion core?
No. Instead of using 3 energy per second, it now uses 1.8 per second. The only thing that got changed was amount of healing which personally I thought was abit imba especially when you needed more dps i.e. a presence of a larger force to take out smaller contingent of a MMM force. The energy cost benefit is still there so it means your medivacs will heal for a longer periods of time. Correct me if Im wrong..
More accurately, it just means that your medivacs have a higher chance of dying when feedbacked.
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On January 11 2013 13:57 Khalleb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 13:48 Ooshmagoosh wrote:On January 11 2013 12:39 iEchoic wrote:
I agree that removing Caduceus Reactor was a terrible change. Adding this upgrade was one of the things they got right in the first place.
Terran doesn't need to save 100/100 when getting siege tanks, Terran needs a late-game equalizer. Caduceus medivacs were the only thing keeping 10-range-nearly-insta fungals and the new ultras in check, as well as the protoss death ball. This change was actually brilliantly designed - it went on a core, high-tech unit, required a high-tech structure, which meant that it altered the core Terran composition without buffing the early or midgame.
Removing this upgrade was not a good decision for a design or game balance perspective.
Please stop buffing ravens, I want a strong core lategame composition, not a gimmick-based lategame. I don't understand this. The reactor buff was an awkward way of buffing "bio". It makes more sense for them to make the Raven work more like a science vessel; instead of making your core units near-invulnerable to anything less than a face-full of banes or ultras, you get a slow, expensive unit that lets you manage Hive tech, provided they don't get killed trying to do their job. It adds more spice to the lategame, where your opponent must find a way to deal with your raven flock + associated missiles, instead of just throwing another 4 spines at each base. yes they should look more into the raven right now the hsm is really hard to balance with the dmg/energy cost/splash/delay time bfr moving. i would like to see maybe a spell like... Irradiate from bw
I don't understand this either. It's not hard to balance. It can be dodged / evaded / mitigated, or dropped altogether by loading the unit into a dropship, so it's OK for it to hit pretty hard for its energy cost. The (old) spell mechanism before they fucked with it for no real reason was just fine, but apparently they didn't think they could simply change range 6 to range 9 / 10 / whatever without putting in this weird gimmicky undodgeable laser-marked thing where it just dies if you move your junk backwards.
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I'm all for bio being made more viable late-game, but that upgrade was definitely not the way to do it. That combined with the booster ability made bio drops way too powerful, at least against zerg.
I have never really agreed with any of avilo's posts :/
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I'm the only one who think that the new battlehellion lost their identity and now is a stupid masseable anti ground 1a unit very similar to the roach?
Is like Blizz gave up with clever mech designs and went back to the magic 1a anti-ground WoL design (roach, marauder, collosi).
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On January 11 2013 13:48 Ooshmagoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:39 iEchoic wrote:
I agree that removing Caduceus Reactor was a terrible change. Adding this upgrade was one of the things they got right in the first place.
Terran doesn't need to save 100/100 when getting siege tanks, Terran needs a late-game equalizer. Caduceus medivacs were the only thing keeping 10-range-nearly-insta fungals and the new ultras in check, as well as the protoss death ball. This change was actually brilliantly designed - it went on a core, high-tech unit, required a high-tech structure, which meant that it altered the core Terran composition without buffing the early or midgame.
Removing this upgrade was not a good decision for a design or game balance perspective.
Please stop buffing ravens, I want a strong core lategame composition, not a gimmick-based lategame. I don't understand this. The reactor buff was an awkward way of buffing "bio". It makes more sense for them to make the Raven work more like a science vessel; instead of making your core units near-invulnerable to anything less than a face-full of banes or ultras, you get a slow, expensive unit that lets you manage Hive tech, provided they don't get killed trying to do their job. It adds more spice to the lategame, where your opponent must find a way to deal with your raven flock + associated missiles, instead of just throwing another 4 spines at each base.
Well, I don't agree that it makes your core units near-invincible. Even if it did, that would be a numbers tweak, which would have been fine. If they felt that it was too powerful they should have modified it instead of removing it.
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In my limited experience in the beta the medivac upgrade seemed realllly strong vs zerg so I'm kinda glad they changed it. Not sure that "changed" should mean flat out removed like the way they chose to do it tho...
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On January 10 2013 23:23 avilo wrote:
I'm here to guess what? Spur on some discussion about this.
Blizzard has been known in the past to pretty much ax/kill Terran things
yes, sure. Stopped reading here.
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On January 11 2013 06:52 Zahir wrote:
Problem with this upgrade is it made engagements involving bio super one dimensional, either they apply extreme splash damage and you die or everything they have melts. Forget about roach hydra or gateway units, vs Caduceus bio your only viable strat is collossus/ht/infestor deathball. Essentially reinforcing the hard counter system of sc2 which is already bad and placing too much emphasis on composition and the "one big engagement" rather than micro battles with soft counters. You can't just chip engage, stall out, win with superior micro using weak toss stalkers and shit, etc when the Terran units ade invincible vs non aoe.
Better solution: give Terran some late game stuff that works other than t1 and medivacs with support. Buff mech, make it decimate everything on the ground in late mid game onward when seiged. Make the hellbat not get healed by medivacs and just make it better vs toss somehow. Make mines burrow slower, but shoot faster. Make raven hsm less dumb, have it fly in and stick to a unit and then detonate after a delay. Stuff like that.
You make so much sense that I want to hug you.
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On January 11 2013 10:24 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 06:49 yoigen wrote:
To be honest it was too good before the patch, especially against zerg. Now though you are pretty fucked against 35 dmg ultras. Pretty much stuck going for battle cruiser and yamatoing ultralisk as crazy as that sounds. It might be the only way to deal with any ultralisk composition. Expecially infestor ultralisk.
I find it hilarious when they walk through my minefield, eat a bunch of HSMs and still manage to clear my ground army like it was made of paper :D
Although the Ultralisks are strong now, maybe even too strong, I LOVE seeing them crush faces instead of the standard WoL zerg lategame composition, even if it makes me cry a little how easy it is. Meh, time will tell.
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I really dont like removing totally the upgrade from the game. Maybe it was too strong and needed to be balanced/nerfed a bit.
But it was useful in both TvZ and TvP.
TvZ : ultralisk are really strong now, and the new healing allowed bio/mech to be a bit effective against it. Even vs spread bio + tank line + medivacs, ultra could run in and kill everything despite of kitting... So i aint sure that removing the healing upgrade will help T dealing with ultras in TvZ.
Also, bio against roach/hydra was already tough (and talking about tier, it's tier 1/1,5,2 vs 1/1,5) now without the medivac healing it's gonna be even harder...
TvP : healing upgrade helped against the storm spam/carpet + Colo A move and the zealot warpin when barrack units are producing. Removing it totally make that terran has now to play again at 400 APM in order to sustain/trade evently/not too bad against toss...
I think most of the terran would say that it was too strong, massing medivac and standing right in storm not microing. But removing it (and doing so, removing another of the few terrans changes) when other race have new strategies to work on doesnt seems really fair, nor interesting.
Think the removal is pretty much too fast and doenst take everysingle aspect of the MU.
It actually made TvP late game interesting again for T (maybe it lowered the skill cap... maybe) and decently balanced against Ultras.
Maybe i'm wrong, but that's how i feel
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Like they removed the warhound without further testing/tweaking, they removed the cadeceus reactor without testing/tweaking.
Terran should be used to see such things, but it still hurts everytime this happens.
What i liked with this upgrade was the fact it gave beautiful tankless TvZ macro game. Now bio just get crushed by ultra, thus can't be played lategame.
I do agree that drops were too powerful however. But instead of tweaking the numbers, just removing it (while terran already has not been improved since WoL since the gameplay hasn't change at all) was a terrible idea and gives once again the feeling that terran is being hated by blizzard.
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On January 11 2013 06:27 SheaR619 wrote:
If they had keep time warp in the game I would agree but since timewarp isnt on the oracle anymore, I say removing it was fine.
Time Warp was moved to the mothership core. This is off topic, but I figured it should be clarified.
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I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame.
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On January 12 2013 00:25 avilo wrote:
I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame.
Even with the medivac buff the ultralisk buff still does splash, so any unit not getting healed by a 'vac is going to get wrecked. Don't you think there is a better solution than higher single target hp/s if your concern is splash and aoe? I guess I just don't see how higher single target hp/s is the answer against aoe. so 10-15 of your units survive, they quickly become target fired and still die.
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On January 12 2013 00:30 yourself2k8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 00:25 avilo wrote:
I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame. Even with the medivac buff the ultralisk buff still does splash, so any unit not getting healed by a 'vac is going to get wrecked. Don't you think there is a better solution than higher single target hp/s if your concern is splash and aoe? I guess I just don't see how higher single target hp/s is the answer against aoe. so 10-15 of your units survive, they quickly become target fired and still die.
Ummm...people said the same thing about the baneling and that was all thrown out the window when MKP showed that you could split your units against splash and mitigate most of the damage with good positioning. The problem with ultras is that they take forever to die and with the increased damage do so much damage that you're losing your dps quickly why zerg still retain their dps. This is why with higher healing rate, you can make your units survive longer so that you can take advantage of what bio gives you, more dps, more mobility and the ability to get into a better position, without losing most of your bio in the process.
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On January 12 2013 00:25 avilo wrote:
I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame.
There is plenty of time to give terrans something else that offsets this slightly unbalanced TvP endgame. Medivac heal buff was just not a great way to do it. A simple ghost buff is more elegant for example because that doesn't affect TvZ really.
I had already expected actually that reapers would get some actual endgame use so you could start to mix them in to your composition lategame if you play bio TvP. Their high supply efficiency would automatically offset lategame TvP a bit then. Besides from what I've seen in korea lategame TvP is not that much P favored at all, especially if Ts get better in replacing workers with orbitals as the game progresses.
Same for TvZ endgame by the way but that's so fresh with all the recent changes to that matchup that it's hard to gauge, especially now terran can be super greedy because of easy access to a siege tank early on.. For example it might be much easier to mix in marauders now against ultralisks because the fear of broodlords is lower, fungal got nerfed, HSM got changed again and armor upgrades for air/mech are merged.
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On January 12 2013 00:44 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 00:30 yourself2k8 wrote:On January 12 2013 00:25 avilo wrote:
I do not think a lot of you that are saying the upgrade was "OP" understand it was an equalizing factor against the new mega damage ultralisks (buff kept for Zerg), and lategame Protoss aoe from storm + collosus.
Why remove only the new Terran thing, but keep ultras and the new 12 range fungal? That is part of why this change is perplexing. You can't just only remove Terran things, and keep Z/P things the same.
I know I say it jokingly in other threads, but the "Z/P we're giving you new stuff, Terrans...learn how to play against the new stuff" seems to be at work here (again).
Check out how good ultralisks new damage is + splash against bio users, and you'll see medivac healing was an equalizing factor. Lategame TvP was much more do-able, but still very much similar to WOL lategame TvP. The difference was as mentioned before...now Terran had an equalizing factor against 16+ warpgates in lategame. Even with the medivac buff the ultralisk buff still does splash, so any unit not getting healed by a 'vac is going to get wrecked. Don't you think there is a better solution than higher single target hp/s if your concern is splash and aoe? I guess I just don't see how higher single target hp/s is the answer against aoe. so 10-15 of your units survive, they quickly become target fired and still die. Ummm...people said the same thing about the baneling and that was all thrown out the window when MKP showed that you could split your units against splash and mitigate most of the damage with good positioning. The problem with ultras is that they take forever to die and with the increased damage do so much damage that you're losing your dps quickly why zerg still retain their dps. This is why with higher healing rate, you can make your units survive longer so that you can take advantage of what bio gives you, more dps, more mobility and the ability to get into a better position, without losing most of your bio in the process.
Isn't it still most effective to stutter step and kite ultras? This by default causes your units to bunch, increasing the effectiveness of splash. If you split against ultras and have 2+ ultra attacking a single bio unit, it gets 1 shot anyway, thus negating the usefulness of the medivac regardless of hp/sec. Its still better to split than to just stand in a clump and get owned, but I'd think stutter step is always better.
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On January 12 2013 01:35 Markwerf wrote:
There is plenty of time to give terrans something else that offsets this slightly unbalanced TvP endgame.
Rofl ... two months is NOTHING because the stuff they put in has to be tested and lets be honest ... Blizzards track record in the last few months is SERIOUSLY against them.
They didnt even tweak the numbers of the upgrade but removed it completely and that is "balancing with a sledgehammer" and not a chisel. They are seriously off course OR they have something brilliant up their sleeves (which they should have swapped in this patch instead, so they probably dont have any clue again ...).
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I dont play any 1vs1, only teamgames so far in hots, but tbh that upgrade just broke the late game for casual player... I dont expect a upgrade so strong that it suddenly requires exponentially more skill to deal with it . Also medicac itself is broken enough... I have really no idea why medic isnt available in mp instead of medivac...well thats blizzard for me 
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Incredibly biased op (no surprise there, really) with stuff like this:
...as a Terran there's a "we can't have nice things" rule...
I know you're way better than most of us here, Avilo, but most people who at least try to be unbiased saw this as absolutely imbalanced (healing upgrade, that is).
Heck, I'd say the speed booster clicky might even be still too much. Though something like this is needed to give T something that is fun with HotS. And encouraging a drop based style again is a good thing. The clicky does feel too much like a free "get out of jail" card, imo. What about rebuffing the acceleration and speed back to what it was in early WoL, shouldn't that be sufficient?
I agree with the Hellion being bio doesn't sit right - is the battle hellion strong enough now after the recent change? What about siege tanks, I feel the upgrade not being required anymore still feels weird, I'd prefer a damage buff on the siege tank.
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On January 12 2013 03:12 ACrow wrote:Incredibly biased op (no surprise there, really) with stuff like this: I know you're way better than most of us here, Avilo, but most people who at least try to be unbiased saw this as absolutely imbalanced (healing upgrade, that is). Heck, I'd say the speed booster clicky might even be still too much. Though something like this is needed to give T something that is fun with HotS. And encouraging a drop based style again is a good thing. The clicky does feel too much like a free "get out of jail" card, imo. What about rebuffing the acceleration and speed back to what it was in early WoL, shouldn't that be sufficient? I agree with the Hellion being bio doesn't sit right - is the battle hellion strong enough now after the recent change? What about siege tanks, I feel the upgrade not being required anymore still feels weird, I'd prefer a damage buff on the siege tank.
The thing is they didnt even fiddle with the stats of the healing but removed it entirely and if you compare the healing with the speed boost you might notice that one is a rather passive skill which is of no use in a fight itself and the other actually increases the power of fighting units. The offensive stuff usually is more useful.
"we can't have nice things" is only biased if it is NOT TRUE and for this expansion you would be hard pressed to show anything really nice that terrans got.
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first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
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On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
he wanted to buff bio by giving them speed medis.
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On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
That upgrade was just fucking ridiculous.... I'm all for giving medivacs an upgrade to make bio more viable late game vs Zerg. Like what was suggested earlier an upgrade that lets the medivacs shoot two heal beams at a time would be cool, and reduce the effectiveness of OP splash damage in the game. But the upgrade the way they had it needed to go was WAY to strong.
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On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
The emergency thrusters still helps bio lategame. Also, they have reapers now; the gas is almost neglectible lategame since often times terrans have 2000-3000 gas (unless they opt for heavy marauder/ghost/viking/medivac numbers like some terrans, but not all choose that). Hopefully they'll find some harassing role, since it's much easier than loading up marines into medivacs, worrying about where they drop, waiting for them to finish dropping, and then finally stimming them in. And also it's riskier with medivac drops due to things like running into static defense or mutas, etc.
Also, by buffing them this way instead of a healing buff, it doesn't help exclusively bio. Medivac speed helps mech drops too (especially the super strong hellbats, doing 30 damage against workers, always 2 shotting them).
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On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq?
Its obvious David Kim and Dustin Bowder have no idea how to balance a game. Sometimes I wonder if we got another Diablo 3 fiasco on our hands.
On January 12 2013 03:12 ACrow wrote:Incredibly biased op (no surprise there, really) with stuff like this: I know you're way better than most of us here, Avilo, but most people who at least try to be unbiased saw this as absolutely imbalanced (healing upgrade, that is). Heck, I'd say the speed booster clicky might even be still too much. Though something like this is needed to give T something that is fun with HotS. And encouraging a drop based style again is a good thing. The clicky does feel too much like a free "get out of jail" card, imo. What about rebuffing the acceleration and speed back to what it was in early WoL, shouldn't that be sufficient? I agree with the Hellion being bio doesn't sit right - is the battle hellion strong enough now after the recent change? What about siege tanks, I feel the upgrade not being required anymore still feels weird, I'd prefer a damage buff on the siege tank.
Dont forget, Blizzard needs to tone down Protoss and Zerg aoe as well. Nerf fungal and collosus so protoss and zerg need to do more than just spam spells and amove.
User was warned for this post
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On January 12 2013 04:33 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq? Its obvious David Kim and Dustin Bowder have no idea how to design a game. Sometimes I wonder if we got another Diablo 3 fiasco on our hands. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:12 ACrow wrote:Incredibly biased op (no surprise there, really) with stuff like this: ...as a Terran there's a "we can't have nice things" rule... I know you're way better than most of us here, Avilo, but most people who at least try to be unbiased saw this as absolutely imbalanced (healing upgrade, that is). Heck, I'd say the speed booster clicky might even be still too much. Though something like this is needed to give T something that is fun with HotS. And encouraging a drop based style again is a good thing. The clicky does feel too much like a free "get out of jail" card, imo. What about rebuffing the acceleration and speed back to what it was in early WoL, shouldn't that be sufficient? I agree with the Hellion being bio doesn't sit right - is the battle hellion strong enough now after the recent change? What about siege tanks, I feel the upgrade not being required anymore still feels weird, I'd prefer a damage buff on the siege tank. Dont forget, Blizzard needs to tone down Protoss and Zerg aoe as well. Redesign fungal and collosus so protoss and zerg need to do more than just spam spells and amove. User was warned for this post
FYP. Balancing a game is easy, that's just about tweaking numbers, anyone can do that. Designing a game though, requires a great deal of analytical skills + a great understanding of starcraft 2. I don't want to be a elitilist but honestly most platinum players and below just don't understand Starcraft 2 properly (hint: I am talking about Dustin Browder).
But fungals and collosus shouldn't be nerfed. They should be redesigned so that it required an equal amount of skill to use them and an equal amount of skill to play against them. As long as this isn't the case, then the ability will be badly designed.
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On January 12 2013 04:29 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:46 eMGmoG wrote:
first david kim said they wanted to make bio more viable lategame, thats why the medivac healbuff. now he says that caduceus reactor was used too much with bio. dafuq? That upgrade was just fucking ridiculous.... I'm all for giving medivacs an upgrade to make bio more viable late game vs Zerg. Like what was suggested earlier an upgrade that lets the medivacs shoot two heal beams at a time would be cool, and reduce the effectiveness of OP splash damage in the game. But the upgrade the way they had it needed to go was WAY to strong.
I understand that a korean terran would have broken the game with it. now the upgrade its just meh, i mean how often do you see no energy medivacs? maybe 1 out of 10 games? so the upgrade itself is nice, but the situation it might get useful does not often occur - thats why i question these changes.
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Bio TvZ is somewhat Z favoured atm if they're competent with spore positioning and actually building more than 2 spores at a given location. The issue still lies in Bio's ability to buffer for important support units like tanks that provide the critical AOE needed. They now die faster than normal (ultras 2 shotting a bunch of marines) and there is alot of loss dps involved when blinding cloud is in play. While i agree the old caduceus reactor is too strong, they should have weakened it's healing rate or have introduced a dual beam variant to improve the bio ball's resistance against said factors.
As of now, mech just seems like a superior option and the weakness of bio in later stages in terms of cost efficiency will probably discourage bio heavy compositions. I hope they reconsider their knee jerk reaction and revisit the changes in a more moderate form. Frankly, i'm sure alot of bio players will agree that slower medivacs (reduced after burner speed/longer cd on ability) is a better trade for improved healing ability if it comes to that. Right now they really are lacking survivability in light of new hots changes.
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I know I'm pretty n00b here, but after playing beta that upgrade was sooooooooo strong.Just my opinion though. Even some terrans I played go "lololol this is funny." Should terran be able to fight the entire game making 3-5 units while protoss at least has to go tier 3 on two tech trees just to fight terrans mmm/ghost/viking combo of doom? Just making discussion.
Again my opinion, but doesn't this upgrade that enables bio to go all game long decrease diversity in terran playstyles or transitions throughout the game? The game would even be more fun to watch if it wasn't "terran opening up bio" and then 45 minutes later "well... he's still bio..." and instead was "he's opening bio" and then 45 minutes later he's on mech or sky units or something? I know terran doesn't tech switch like zerg does, but protoss sort of tech switches and we have to make buildings the same way ish.
Edit: forgot to mention like others, maybe just reduce it to give terran time to transition into something else or make the tech switch?
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On January 12 2013 06:58 BoondockVeritas wrote:
I know I'm pretty n00b here, but after playing beta that upgrade was sooooooooo strong.Just my opinion though. Even some terrans I played go "lololol this is funny." Should terran be able to fight the entire game making 3-5 units while protoss at least has to go tier 3 on two tech trees just to fight terrans mmm/ghost/viking combo of doom? Just making discussion.
Again my opinion, but doesn't this upgrade that enables bio to go all game long decrease diversity in terran playstyles or transitions throughout the game? The game would even be more fun to watch if it wasn't "terran opening up bio" and then 45 minutes later "well... he's still bio..." and instead was "he's opening bio" and then 45 minutes later he's on mech or sky units or something? I know terran doesn't tech switch like zerg does, but protoss sort of tech switches and we have to make buildings the same way ish.
Edit: forgot to mention like others, maybe just reduce it to give terran time to transition into something else or make the tech switch?
BS, terran infrastructure is super expensive + upgrades aren't shared by ground units.
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On January 12 2013 06:58 BoondockVeritas wrote:
I know I'm pretty n00b here, but after playing beta that upgrade was sooooooooo strong.Just my opinion though. Even some terrans I played go "lololol this is funny." Should terran be able to fight the entire game making 3-5 units while protoss at least has to go tier 3 on two tech trees just to fight terrans mmm/ghost/viking combo of doom? Just making discussion.
Again my opinion, but doesn't this upgrade that enables bio to go all game long decrease diversity in terran playstyles or transitions throughout the game? The game would even be more fun to watch if it wasn't "terran opening up bio" and then 45 minutes later "well... he's still bio..." and instead was "he's opening bio" and then 45 minutes later he's on mech or sky units or something? I know terran doesn't tech switch like zerg does, but protoss sort of tech switches and we have to make buildings the same way ish.
Edit: forgot to mention like others, maybe just reduce it to give terran time to transition into something else or make the tech switch?
Heres the thing Terran cant transition from bio to mech to sky you have to choose either bio or mech and if ONLY the game lasts long enough then can you go into sky. Its the way the race was made. Terran has the most upgrades in the game(talking about attack, armor and skills like stim) which is fine because we choose either mech or bio. Going from bio to mech to air is impossible because you would pretty much need to get every upgrade in the game along with having enough buildings producing units.
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My thinking was that the Medivac upgrade was there to off-set the imbalance created by Time Warp + Storm. Since Time Warp got moved to the Mothership/Core its a much more manageable spell for a Terran to counter so the Medivac healing was no longer needed.
Overall, I wasn't happy with how powerful they had made MMM, sure it was nice for TvP but for the other match ups it was too much I felt.
I think Terran is better off without it, provided the Factory continues to receive the attention it needs. The new Seeker Missile is also pretty sexy.
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As a Terran player who loves bio style I loved the upgrade it made late game easier. Bio stle does require the best micro and attention you have to play. I think Terran need something to help them with bio. Maybe adjust the healing rate. Maybe give a special armor boost like combat shields except for every bio unit. As for the battle hellion. It's a car......it's made of metal it shouldn't become bio as a hellbat. The helion is cool to control the space of the map. Also these polls are so close kinda interesting.
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On January 12 2013 02:42 GrazerRinge wrote:I dont play any 1vs1, only teamgames so far in hots, but tbh that upgrade just broke the late game for casual player... I dont expect a upgrade so strong that it suddenly requires exponentially more skill to deal with it . Also medicac itself is broken enough... I have really no idea why medic isnt available in mp instead of medivac...well thats blizzard for me
Say hi to marine split micro; casuals must be having a great time with it when even pros struggle to execute it. Not a fan of the upgrade but late game bio needs SOMETHING; unless we learn to split and stutter step maxed armies simultaneously.
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On January 11 2013 06:52 Zahir wrote:
Problem with this upgrade is it made engagements involving bio super one dimensional, either they apply extreme splash damage and you die or everything they have melts. Forget about roach hydra or gateway units, vs Caduceus bio your only viable strat is collossus/ht/infestor deathball. Essentially reinforcing the hard counter system of sc2 which is already bad and placing too much emphasis on composition and the "one big engagement" rather than micro battles with soft counters. You can't just chip engage, stall out, win with superior micro using weak toss stalkers and shit, etc when the Terran units ade invincible vs non aoe.
Better solution: give Terran some late game stuff that works other than t1 and medivacs with support. Buff mech, make it decimate everything on the ground in late mid game onward when seiged. Make the hellbat not get healed by medivacs and just make it better vs toss somehow. Make mines burrow slower, but shoot faster. Make raven hsm less dumb, have it fly in and stick to a unit and then detonate after a delay. Stuff like that.
I completely agree with this entire post. The problem to begin with was that bio is so strong that it can be your core army composition against everything in all three matchups all the way to late game and still remain useful. It became a bandaid that allowed terrans to keep the winrate fairly balanced even without the use of many of their factory and starport units. The strength of MMM is what has been keeping the other terran units from getting buffed, because they have not been seeing enough use to warrant a response.
The moment that ravens became vital to TvZ lategame we saw seeker missile altered. Why? Because we had proof by statistics that it wasn't too hot in it's current form. The moment that 1/1/1 became the coolest thing there was, the immortal was buffed. Why? Because until then, nobody had really tried to use the immortal much. In retrospect, that is probably the single biggest oversight by protoss for half of WoL.
Long story short: We know bio is powerful enough to win games in WoL. There seems to be no purpose in making them stronger than they already are, if you do it will be a magic bullet. It would be much better to try and improve the viability of other units and unit comps so that we can see if they are also strong enough and if not you buff them.
Blizzard saw a function that did the opposite and actually discouraged mech play and they removed it, rightfully so.
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The medivac upgrade made it so that terran had one of the best army's in the game not only quicker than most other races but it was then also super good late game if the terran player was just bad and couldnt get anything done early game.
It meant that there was no reason to even try and go mech becasue bio was just super good all game long... it made no sense to have it in the game.
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On January 12 2013 21:38 baldgye wrote:
The medivac upgrade made it so that terran had one of the best army's in the game not only quicker than most other races but it was then also super good late game if the terran player was just bad and couldnt get anything done early game.
It meant that there was no reason to even try and go mech becasue bio was just super good all game long... it made no sense to have it in the game.
no what it meant was that bio raped everything that wasn't AOE´.
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I never understood why it was implemented in the first place. The speed boost makes sense, the healing upgrade not so much.
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TvP Lategame with bio is totally imba once Protoss gets a deathball of the following
5 Tempest mixed with Colos, HTs, Archons and Rest in Stalker. Archons used as tanks and you will never ever get in range because you have to dodge storms and colo shots
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Those who voted no and no must be zergs and protoss....as a bio terran how can you not love this heal upgrade?!?!
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If they promote bio play, mech unitis wont be used
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On January 12 2013 22:48 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 21:38 baldgye wrote:
The medivac upgrade made it so that terran had one of the best army's in the game not only quicker than most other races but it was then also super good late game if the terran player was just bad and couldnt get anything done early game.
It meant that there was no reason to even try and go mech becasue bio was just super good all game long... it made no sense to have it in the game. no what it meant was that bio raped everything that wasn't AOE´.
No, it meant that Bio was raping everything.
A Marine would get healed 15 HP/second and Storm deals damage at a rate of 20HP/second.
That means Marines lose 5HP/second meaning they can withstand 10 seconds of storm, that is 2.5 Storms.
Do you think that is balanced?
A single Marauder and one Medivac are enough to kill off a Colossus.
Why should Bio, that is exceptionally strong against Gateway units as well as Stargate units also be able to deal with the rest of the Protoss units?
How can any of you think it is good game design to have 3 units that, in combination, can deal with everything Protoss can throw at you?
Honestly I am getting more and more disgusted by what Terrans expect their race to be capable of.
In TvP you got:
- More mobility (faster units as well as drops)
- Higher Damage output except Colossi and Storm (you can micro against those, simply stutter stepping actually deals with both decently)
- Cheaper units. (Terran maxes out faster)
- More army supply (MULES)
- Map Control up until lategame (faster maxing, strong against Gatway units and more mobility)
You also expect your army to beat a maxed Toss high end composition?
What is left for Protoss then?
Defensive play leading to a weaker army?
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On January 13 2013 00:26 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 22:48 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 21:38 baldgye wrote:
The medivac upgrade made it so that terran had one of the best army's in the game not only quicker than most other races but it was then also super good late game if the terran player was just bad and couldnt get anything done early game.
It meant that there was no reason to even try and go mech becasue bio was just super good all game long... it made no sense to have it in the game. no what it meant was that bio raped everything that wasn't AOE´. No, it meant that Bio was raping everything. A Marine would get healed 15 HP/second and Storm deals damage at a rate of 20HP/second. That means Marines lose 5HP/second meaning they can withstand 10 seconds of storm, that is 2.5 Storms. Do you think that is balanced? A single Marauder and one Medivac are enough to kill off a Colossus. Why should Bio, that is exceptionally strong against Gateway units as well as Stargate units also be able to deal with the rest of the Protoss units? How can any of you think it is good game design to have 3 units that, in combination, can deal with everything Protoss can throw at you? Honestly I am getting more and more disgusted by what Terrans expect their race to be capable of. In TvP you got: - More mobility (faster units as well as drops) - Higher Damage output except Colossi and Storm (you can micro against those, simply stutter stepping actually deals with both decently) - Cheaper units. (Terran maxes out faster) - More army supply (MULES) - Map Control up until lategame (faster maxing, strong against Gatway units and more mobility) You also expect your army to beat a maxed Toss high end composition? What is left for Protoss then? Defensive play leading to a weaker army?
This is quite untrue... It almost feel you're Z, and have barely any knowledge about how TvP/PvT works...
Mobility wise :Stalkers/chargelot/archon/colossus are decently fast. At least as fast as a bioball moving. The only real slow unit for P is the templar.
Damage output wise: Colossus and storm are good AoE spells. They actually do kill units, whereas EMP does not. Pull back and you're fine. But i guess it's not the place for an EMP vs Storm talk.
Chargelot are actually one the main DPS sources for toss lategame. They can close the distance, force stutter step (= less damage output) + dodging storm/spreading bio is another loss of DPS...
Archon also does splash damage.
What are the terran splash damage units? uh... EMP. And that's about it.
Vikings get useless once colo are sniped, and the toss remax in 2 sec with 40 food worth of zealot...
So i aint so sure about the "higher damage output"
Cheaper unit : that's true for the bio. Medivac ghost and viking are actually pretty expensive. But let's say terran indeed have cheaper units overall.
More army supply : Mules and saccing SCV i presume? Yeah that's true. And even with 30/40 more army supply you can still loose a fight quite easily... Storm and Colo arent that forviging
Map control : there are mostly 3 periods for TvP
1) toss has total control, stalker outruning marines + regen shield, terran has to bunker up and pray to survive any of the many allins toss can throw on 2 gas, which are pretty tough to scout
2) 10/11 minutes, terran can leave his base with medivacs, and take a third. Toss turtling. Not really a big deal, once colos are out, toss can pretty much take a safe third.
3) map control is shared. Cant really give the advantage to the terran or the protoss, it totally depend on the play.
So saying terrans has the total map control whole game is actually false. It's what terran want/aim to do, but it's way trickier to do than to say.
So overall, removing the medivac upgrade just pull back terran to what it already was in WoL.
Being really strong with the medivac timing (which any toss can defend now) and then being really unforgiving if you miss 1 EMP.
The post might/is probably biased since i'm playing terran, and it's probable that protoss have some problems too. But my personnal conviction is that TvP is way more unforgiving for T than it is for P. Maybe because of the warp gate.
"You also expect your army to beat a maxed Toss high end composition?"
Hell yeah, i wish we could. We should be able to.
What does that mean? "if you dont win before i have my super deathball, i'll roll you over and you wont be able to do anything?" Sounds fair...
Ofc we want to be able to beat protoss lategame. It's always easier to turtle than to attack.
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Pls bring back this ability. Mana medivac is useless LOL
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The whole advantage of mech is supposedly to have a positional advantage that if challenged will always leave you trading more than cost efficiently, not counting neat micro tricks of course. The medivac change of course will have no impact on mech builds regarding hellbat because mech is not about sustaining, it's about crushing an army before it reaches you (again not counting micro).
Even if they decided 'well we like the idea of healing mech' and allowed ravens to repair mech it wouldn't matter, the real buff that needs to be done to make mech tvp viable (and i mean actually viable, not viable as a stupid all in again) is to make it do 50 flat damage to everything. Yes this affects tvz and tvt (notably marine/zergling) but both of these situations can be beaten by better micro (OL dropping zerglings, infestor eggs, medivac dropping marines, mule calldowns, nukes etc).
Why they refuse to do the one change that will make TvP mech viable is completely beyond me.
However, it was evident that the medivac change was largely unnecessary, you can play bio all the way through a TvT and still win with just pure mara medivac and intelligent dropping play. If it gets to the point where your every move is crushed by turrets vikings and thors then you can literally go straight sky terran because a pure bio player should always have more bases.
Basically, the medivac upgrade added nothing to the game. Having a good chunk of bio (ex 10 maras) with 10 medivacs meant you were in the fight, and you were going to be in the fight for a LOOOOOOOOONG time coming provided you had an army trade.
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I feel like there should be an upgrade for the medivac that allows it to be used similarly to a science vessel that allows it to heal mech. If you dont give an upgrade like that to the medivac, at least give it to something like the raven.
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The point of that is largely lost, mech is by all means meant to be a stalwart and immobile force that decimates things that come toward it, not the other way around. Mobile healing does absolutely nothing for mech, mech isn't meant to be amoved and rapidly healed, it's meant to kill what comes at it quickly.
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Wow look at all the "NO" responses. those must be Zerg/Protoss users... this is a poor poll. People need to lighten up about the changes, its one thing to say "this change has drastically effected the way that I play the game," instead of, "Blizzard shouldnt make changes like this... My race is so weak now!" Guys, there have to be controls and variables in experiments... That means some things will be left alone and others will be changed for the sake of seeing exactly how it is when they are gone. I know that people think that complaining is one way to get what they want or perhaps to show blizzard they disapprove of the change. But lets be frank here, theyre going to use the hard numbers. If you see it, they likely see it too, so keep it positive!
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On January 11 2013 13:38 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 12:58 akademikx wrote:
wait does the upgrade still require a fusion core?
No. Instead of using 3 energy per second, it now uses 1.8 per second. The only thing that got changed was amount of healing which personally I thought was abit imba especially when you needed more dps i.e. a presence of a larger force to take out smaller contingent of a MMM force. The energy cost benefit is still there so it means your medivacs will heal for a longer periods of time. Correct me if Im wrong..
LOL no. It's +25 energy. Old caduceus.
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On January 13 2013 05:50 Seinken wrote:
The point of that is largely lost, mech is by all means meant to be a stalwart and immobile force that decimates things that come toward it, not the other way around. Mobile healing does absolutely nothing for mech, mech isn't meant to be amoved and rapidly healed, it's meant to kill what comes at it quickly.
So im going to assume you never played BW.
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On January 13 2013 07:00 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 13:38 YyapSsap wrote:On January 11 2013 12:58 akademikx wrote:
wait does the upgrade still require a fusion core?
No. Instead of using 3 energy per second, it now uses 1.8 per second. The only thing that got changed was amount of healing which personally I thought was abit imba especially when you needed more dps i.e. a presence of a larger force to take out smaller contingent of a MMM force. The energy cost benefit is still there so it means your medivacs will heal for a longer periods of time. Correct me if Im wrong.. LOL no. It's +25 energy. Old caduceus.
No, it isn't.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Medivac_(Heart_of_the_Swarm)
"Researched from: Tech Lab
Requires: Fusion Core
Energy cost reduced from 3 health per 1 energy to 5 health per 1 energy."
The only thing the last patch changed was:
"No longer improves the healing rate of Medivacs.
Upgrade cost decreased from 150/150 and 110 seconds to 100/100 and 80 seconds."
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/803/screenshot2013011100454.jpg/)
