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On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote: Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? Their method is just outright nonsensical. It's a beta. They are testing things.
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I'm fine with a buff to bio or an upgrade... But I want something with allows (and encourages) Terrans to build fewer Medivacs. As a spectator, I just can't stand games where the Terran has like 10 Medivacs floating above his army covering everything up.
The other thing is that stim isn't much of a decision. You always use it, and you never worry about running out of healing energy, or anything like that.
I liked the speed thing for Medivacs.
The whole bio hellbat thing is just dumb, though.
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On January 11 2013 02:40 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote: Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? Their method is just outright nonsensical. It's a beta. They are testing things. they shouldnt change the game so drastic when the launch is in 2 month, u know? time to get the balance right with small changes, to get hots release ready
if the pros always have to create new bos or have to adapt to something new after a huge new patch , they cant play the game properly and find the small(or mayb big? ) balance issues
and btw the medivac upgrade is now even more worse than in WOL cauz its in fusion core and all it does is give +25 startings energy same as in WOL
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On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote: Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? You don't do that. Their method is just outright nonsensical.
Just make hellbat mechanical only. Medivac can still heal marauders and marines in your comp, and hellbat doesn't need to be healed. Why they just don't get it.
For fun gameplay it was a good decision though because it makes medivacs and thus drop play useful with mech promoting more active and fun gameplay. Without a use for the heal effect the dropship would simply suck too much for mech and hardly be used leading to boring mechplay. They shouldn't have gone for the medivac in the first place imo but just for the plain old medic and a separate dropship because dropplay should be good in all styles, the game should promote and reward difficult multitasking play. Now they went for the ugly fix of letting dropships 'heal' mech too
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On January 11 2013 02:54 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:40 gedatsu wrote:On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote: Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? Their method is just outright nonsensical. It's a beta. They are testing things. they shouldnt change the game so drastic when the launch is in 2 month, u know? time to get the balance right with small changes, to get hots release ready if the pros always have to create new bos or have to adapt to something new after a huge new patch , they cant play the game properly and find the small(or mayb big? ) balance issues and btw the medivac upgrade is now even more worse than in WOL cauz its in fusion core and all it does is give +25 startings energy same as in WOL
No it is not the same as in WOL. It increased hitpoints/enegry rate by a crazy amount, so fewer medivacs heal more things.
Also, the WoL beta was the exact same way. They had 6 balance patches two months before release with whole spells being removed and added two months before launch. The game will not be perfect at launch, takes time.
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On January 11 2013 03:12 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:35 larse wrote: Blizzard just can't change things freely like that. If Mech doesn't work, how about make all mech units biological so they can be healed by medivac? You don't do that. Their method is just outright nonsensical.
Just make hellbat mechanical only. Medivac can still heal marauders and marines in your comp, and hellbat doesn't need to be healed. Why they just don't get it. For fun gameplay it was a good decision though because it makes medivacs and thus drop play useful with mech promoting more active and fun gameplay. Without a use for the heal effect the dropship would simply suck too much for mech and hardly be used leading to boring mechplay. They shouldn't have gone for the medivac in the first place imo but just for the plain old medic and a separate dropship because dropplay should be good in all styles, the game should promote and reward difficult multitasking play. Now they went for the ugly fix of letting dropships 'heal' mech too
Ugly fix. That's the words i'm looking for.
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Nothing changed for Protoss that made it easier to defend drops before they did damage, and with the increased healing rate you pretty much had to spend double to defend. Also, this shit made late game so hard for P because our only mineral dump, zealots, were even more worthless than before.
Good change imo, am I wrong?
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option 1. leave cadu healing in game korean break game with it everything else about terran ever nerfed
option 2 remove it
going with 2 so i dont have to go with 1
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I liked the upgrade but it needed to be nerfed some. drops would be pretty ridiculous with it. and lings were made pretty worthless later on
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On January 10 2013 23:59 FS_SlimJim wrote: I think it was removed because MMM against Zerg was way too imbalanced in the lategame. Think about it, a Terran should NEVER be able to go MMM against Zerg hive units and win; marines and marauders are tier1 units, but yet were keeping up with brood lord/ultralisk/infestor compositions because the medivacs kept any bio units from ever dying. I dont care about the matchup or race involved, tier1 units should get wrecked by tier3 units on a cost-efficiency basis in a straight-up fight. No exceptions.
EDIT: That being said, to keep on topic, I think the improved healing rate upgrade should be reinstated, just toned down a little bit. Also the cooldown ability seriously f***ing needs to cost energy or have a longer cooldown. Refer to other threads as to why, but it needs to happen.
honestly that logic is SO stupid - it just does not make sense. Just because it is a tier 1 unit it should be auto lose everytime vs tier 3 units. Think about it, if terran masses thors or even bc's, which are both tier 3 units, what will zerg to do counter it? Infestors, roaches, lings and vs BC corrupters. None of those units are tier 3, and they all RAPE those terran units.
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they should've just tweaked the numbers, rather than removing things.
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On January 11 2013 00:02 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I liked the upgrade, I just thought the numbers were too high. Would have rather seen Blizzard tone down the numbers slightly, or get rid of the increased healing per energy first.
This. It was way to good, but it could have just been nerfed or something instead of complete removal. It was a bit of a joke when quiet a few lings with a couple banes couldn't deal with 1 medivac cause the units refused to die if they sniped the banes :D
I can only imagine tvp
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United States7483 Posts
On January 10 2013 23:33 Seiniyta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote: Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless. Not really, it still decreases the amount of energy needed to heal your units making your medivac longer useful. It is by no means useless.
Well, it's useless if you're playing turtle bio and never engaging, but if you're playing bio with a constantly aggressive style and your medivacs are usually running close to empty and struggling to keep up with the healing that your drug induced coma is forcing them to deal with, then yes, this upgrade will make a big difference.
The upgrade was removed because it made drops too effective and efficient. It was killing mech in TvT, among other things. Apparently blizzard's intent with the upgrade was to use it to help hellbats tank better (go figure) but nobody cared and used it to make marine/marauder even scarier. They didn't want that so they reverted it to a less ridiculous upgrade.
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On January 11 2013 04:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 00:02 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I liked the upgrade, I just thought the numbers were too high. Would have rather seen Blizzard tone down the numbers slightly, or get rid of the increased healing per energy first. This. It was way to good, but it could have just been nerfed or something instead of complete removal. It was a bit of a joke when quiet a few lings with a couple banes couldn't deal with 1 medivac cause the units refused to die if they sniped the banes :D I can only imagine tvp  that's why I said to adjust the numbers instead of removing a whole portion of a upgrade that was one of the only reasons one would probably get it in the first place/etc.
On January 11 2013 04:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:33 Seiniyta wrote:On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote: Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless. Not really, it still decreases the amount of energy needed to heal your units making your medivac longer useful. It is by no means useless. Well, it's useless if you're playing turtle bio and never engaging, but if you're playing bio with a constantly aggressive style and your medivacs are usually running close to empty and struggling to keep up with the healing that your drug induced coma is forcing them to deal with, then yes, this upgrade will make a big difference. The upgrade was removed because it made drops too effective and efficient. It was killing mech in TvT, among other things. Apparently blizzard's intent with the upgrade was to use it to help hellbats tank better (go figure) but nobody cared and used it to make marine/marauder even scarier. They didn't want that so they reverted it to a less ridiculous upgrade. not...really
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Although this upgrade was bitch to fight against, as a Zerg player. I liked it, it added depth to the game. And I felt it was necessary to combat the new ultralisks/hydralisks/infestor combo that Zerg tend to make late game versus bio.
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In all honesty I'd like to have seen it changed from a heal buff to a multiple unit heal of sorts (I know this has been suggested before). At least then it would fit the bill of helping bio against splash instead of just making the 8-10 units the medivacs are healing nearly impossible to kill.
Keep in mind the the medivac still had a base hp/sec buff as part of the patch that WASNT removed. So its not a total loss.
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If they had keep time warp in the game I would agree but since timewarp isnt on the oracle anymore, I say removing it was fine.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 11 2013 04:40 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 04:23 blade55555 wrote:On January 11 2013 00:02 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I liked the upgrade, I just thought the numbers were too high. Would have rather seen Blizzard tone down the numbers slightly, or get rid of the increased healing per energy first. This. It was way to good, but it could have just been nerfed or something instead of complete removal. It was a bit of a joke when quiet a few lings with a couple banes couldn't deal with 1 medivac cause the units refused to die if they sniped the banes :D I can only imagine tvp  that's why I said to adjust the numbers instead of removing a whole portion of a upgrade that was one of the only reasons one would probably get it in the first place/etc. Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 04:27 Whitewing wrote:On January 10 2013 23:33 Seiniyta wrote:On January 10 2013 23:27 avilo wrote:On January 10 2013 23:26 AdrianHealey wrote: Remember that there is still an upgrade and that upgrade still does add some stuf to your medivacs. For all intensive purposes the upgrade is now worthless. Not really, it still decreases the amount of energy needed to heal your units making your medivac longer useful. It is by no means useless. Well, it's useless if you're playing turtle bio and never engaging, but if you're playing bio with a constantly aggressive style and your medivacs are usually running close to empty and struggling to keep up with the healing that your drug induced coma is forcing them to deal with, then yes, this upgrade will make a big difference. The upgrade was removed because it made drops too effective and efficient. It was killing mech in TvT, among other things. Apparently blizzard's intent with the upgrade was to use it to help hellbats tank better (go figure) but nobody cared and used it to make marine/marauder even scarier. They didn't want that so they reverted it to a less ridiculous upgrade. not...really
One of the major complaints about the upgrade was that it was absurdly hard for a mech player in TvT to deal with drops because the units just don't die, and it thus became too easy to split the mech player apart because of how many units he has to commit to each location to deal with multi-pronged aggression. The speed boost dealt with static defense too easily as well.
I will agree that Blizzard too often just removes upgrades or units instead of tweaking them. Remember when Khaydarin amulet got pulled and a lot of people wanted it to be an energy regen increase upgrade instead? Or how about when flux vanes got yanked entirely with no tweaks at all?
That said, I still think the new caduceus reactor is a good upgrade and much better than the old version. There are tons of games, especially PvT, where the terran player is running super low on medivac energy and can't stim because he can't heal his bio. Making the medivacs use less energy to heal is a big help in those situations.
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I agree that David Kim's reasoning of "we didn't expect is to be used with marines and marauders" is baffling, the fuck did you think it was going to be used for?
I'm happy they removed the upgrade though. As a mech'ing player it was a bitch to defend drops with 2 super medivacs and marauders...they just don't die.
EDIT: now if they did the right thing and buffed Tanks, it would probably be fine to keep the upgrade.
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To be honest it was too good before the patch, especially against zerg. Now though you are pretty fucked against 35 dmg ultras.
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