On July 14 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote: I don't get why they are so adamant on making mech OR bio work vs protoss. Too many strat possibilities is what screwed TvP for a long time beforehand... Make too many sentries? oops they went mech etc. Also it will be really hard to make both somewhat equal in strength. Because the immortal already exists they have to make this super ugly warhound design (bonus vs mechanical, ie "we want this only for TvT and TvP") just to give mech a chance. At the same time there is a huge risk that TvT will just become boring warhound wars, which seems one of the most boring units there is, from what i can tell you can't even aim the vs mechanical attack...
It would have been much easier and more elegant to make mech viable in TvT and TvZ and for example make air viable in TvP along with bio. TvP would be somewhat reverse of the TvP in BW where terran instead of protoss would go for either tier 1 units and abuse mobility and/or go for an ultimate lategame air army, in this case consisting of BC's and maybe some new unit. Instead stupid dustin browder is focussing entire HOTS terran improvement to make mech work in TvP, ie bio and air play get no new units at all and mech must be given 3 new units. This basically means bio and air play get nerfed because the other races DO get new units to use against this.. the new mech also looks boring as hell being centered around two abilityless and slow units: battlehellion and warhound.. Imo they need to completely revamp what they are trying to do with terran in HOTS. Throw away the stupid goal of making mech a must in TvP (iconic reasons don't count for the carrier why let them count for mech TvP??) and just let mech work in the other matchups and give all lines of play a new (support) unit. If they are so intent on fixing mech at least make it interesting, for example one problem with mech now is that the medivac is balanced to fit with bio styles. As a result it sucks for mech play as you got a slow, vulnerable dropship that can't heal. Give the medivac a repair ability or make one of the new mech units biological for example just so mech can use some cool dropplay too.
your point is complaining that the units you get dont counter everything?... seems legit. and drop play with mech wont work even of the medivac repaired. simply because mech's greatest strength is that it'll beat everything on the ground cost for cost in 200/200 maxed situations. if you attempt to split them up might as well just go MMMVG because that'll be way more effective.
On July 14 2012 19:59 KuKri wrote: omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
This is absolute rubbish, pvp is very close to being as strategical as TVT and there's quite a lot of stuff that can be done within pvz and pvt, please don't talk about this game when you don't even play it at a high level (i.e. masters)
you must be joking. pvp late game if you are not dead by then just turns into archon colossus vs archon colossus + its the only time protoss gets how terran feels. because they have to make sure their units (archons/colossus, but in terran's case bio) are standing on different "lines" so they dont get completely smashed by colossus attack. but i agree that every other matchup is pretty strategic as well. just your view of PvP is horribly skewed. (i play at mid masters for SEA and NA if its THAT important to you.)
On July 14 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote: I don't get why they are so adamant on making mech OR bio work vs protoss. Too many strat possibilities is what screwed TvP for a long time beforehand... Make too many sentries? oops they went mech etc. Also it will be really hard to make both somewhat equal in strength. Because the immortal already exists they have to make this super ugly warhound design (bonus vs mechanical, ie "we want this only for TvT and TvP") just to give mech a chance. At the same time there is a huge risk that TvT will just become boring warhound wars, which seems one of the most boring units there is, from what i can tell you can't even aim the vs mechanical attack...
It would have been much easier and more elegant to make mech viable in TvT and TvZ and for example make air viable in TvP along with bio. TvP would be somewhat reverse of the TvP in BW where terran instead of protoss would go for either tier 1 units and abuse mobility and/or go for an ultimate lategame air army, in this case consisting of BC's and maybe some new unit. Instead stupid dustin browder is focussing entire HOTS terran improvement to make mech work in TvP, ie bio and air play get no new units at all and mech must be given 3 new units. This basically means bio and air play get nerfed because the other races DO get new units to use against this.. the new mech also looks boring as hell being centered around two abilityless and slow units: battlehellion and warhound.. Imo they need to completely revamp what they are trying to do with terran in HOTS. Throw away the stupid goal of making mech a must in TvP (iconic reasons don't count for the carrier why let them count for mech TvP??) and just let mech work in the other matchups and give all lines of play a new (support) unit. If they are so intent on fixing mech at least make it interesting, for example one problem with mech now is that the medivac is balanced to fit with bio styles. As a result it sucks for mech play as you got a slow, vulnerable dropship that can't heal. Give the medivac a repair ability or make one of the new mech units biological for example just so mech can use some cool dropplay too.
your point is complaining that the units you get dont counter everything?... seems legit. and drop play with mech wont work even of the medivac repaired. simply because mech's greatest strength is that it'll beat everything on the ground cost for cost in 200/200 maxed situations. if you attempt to split them up might as well just go MMMVG because that'll be way more effective.
On July 14 2012 19:59 KuKri wrote: omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
This is absolute rubbish, pvp is very close to being as strategical as TVT and there's quite a lot of stuff that can be done within pvz and pvt, please don't talk about this game when you don't even play it at a high level (i.e. masters)
you must be joking. pvp late game if you are not dead by then just turns into archon colossus vs archon colossus + its the only time protoss gets how terran feels. because they have to make sure their units (archons/colossus, but in terran's case bio) are standing on different "lines" so they dont get completely smashed by colossus attack. but i agree that every other matchup is pretty strategic as well. just your view of PvP is horribly skewed. (i play at mid masters for SEA and NA if its THAT important to you.)
His complaint is that if you get denied scouting and you build something that can fight bio and they go mech you are screwed and vice-versa. If you want an example of this go look at PvP lately. There are tons of openings which prevent the game from usually hitting a serious macro stage, which is good because multi base PvP is boring but its sitll a problem.
On July 10 2012 12:34 Disengaged wrote: If they would fucking work on the Carrier then it would be fine. But no, thats to hard for them.
Ok, argument, why carrier should be in the game?
Because the Carrier is the only Protoss unit that has high single target DPS. Carrier is THE snipe unit in mass engagements.VRays need to charge, Immortals lack range, DTs are to fragile.
Carriers niche is sniping units mid- engagement with incredible DPS, Tempests iche is sniping units with incredible Range
My mindset going into the beta is that i don't care if x is in and y is out as long as hots feels like it's a better game. If you can play two or three styles in each match up i'll be happy. Right now PvP late game is all about the colossus but what if you could play airtoss vs gateway as a legit strategy that would improve the game.
On July 14 2012 22:27 archonOOid wrote: My mindset going into the beta is that i don't care if x is in and y is out as long as hots feels like it's a better game. If you can play two or three styles in each match up i'll be happy. Right now PvP late game is all about the colossus but what if you could play airtoss vs gateway as a legit strategy that would improve the game.
I'd be fine with most things, but a must- do for me is to remove or reduce the idea of 'assymetrical balance' as much as possible.
It makes me really sad they don`t see the beauty of tanks vs tanks. Watching players fight for inches of position is really cool to watch. The damn warhound makes me facepalm
On July 14 2012 21:32 Michaels wrote: Dont you think that widow mine will be too easy to counter? Imagine situation there are 5mines and all you need to do to counter them is to send 5zerlings(125minerals), thats too easy isnt it? They should make it as an upgrade for helions xD
The stupid thing of these mines is that they can jump onto air units. How is a zerg ever going to find out that there are mines planted in a certain location ? How is the zerg going to be able to kill these mines without them jumping on our units? They were invisible when burrowed right? And if an overseer comes to check if there are mines, it'll jump on him. Would fungal growth work on them? Probably not... And even if it work, to what extent do they jump on targets?
Just give us the spider mine. It's so much cooler, makes more sense and promotes just as much micro. It's also a lot more massable, doesn't cost supply and will give the unit it's on another cool use.
On July 14 2012 22:58 Lunit wrote: Haha I feel so bad for you Terran players. If they end up cutting the widow mine then you get nothing new basically. Poor poor Terran.
Battle Hellion and Warhound are pretty cool units, but I don't think Blizzard recons that'd be enough to sell the game, they basically fail to please 1/3 (closer to 1/4 atm sadly) of their playerbase. They won't cut the Widow Mine without replacing it with something else.
Also, I fail too see how Zerg units get cool upgrades (Burrow Charge / Hydra Speed) and not a single P/T unit gets a boost.
Reapers upgrading some shit like building attack for 100/100 to become more viable, Vikings getting an upgrade to become more powerful Also, I dislike the low number of anti- air AOE attacks we have.
On July 14 2012 22:58 Lunit wrote: Haha I feel so bad for you Terran players. If they end up cutting the widow mine then you get nothing new basically. Poor poor Terran.
Battle Hellion and Warhound are pretty cool units, but I don't think Blizzard recons that'd be enough to sell the game, they basically fail to please 1/3 (closer to 1/4 atm sadly) of their playerbase. They won't cut the Widow Mine without replacing it with something else.
Also, I fail too see how Zerg units get cool upgrades (Burrow Charge / Hydra Speed) and not a single P/T unit gets a boost.
Reapers upgrading some shit like building attack for 100/100 to become more viable, Vikings getting an upgrade to become more powerful Also, I dislike the low number of anti- air AOE attacks we have.
Why don't they do womething with that?
You can't honestly like the warhound? It's the shittiest design ever. Auto missles? And I don't play terran, but apparently a lot of people liked the strategic play, and now this easy mode unit comes into play.
It's just an A-move unit with nothing interesting about it and to top it off, it has a ridiculous japanese (or w/e) mech kind of model. Goliath? Bad ass. This? Nothing near it.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
How about.. they pay attention to the carrier and at least TRY to tweak it in some way just like they've done with practically every other unit with all 3 races? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there's been a single patch for the Carrier. It just feels to me like one of the most iconic units has been ignored and they want to trash it out? That's just betrayal to the whole game...
On July 14 2012 22:58 Lunit wrote: Haha I feel so bad for you Terran players. If they end up cutting the widow mine then you get nothing new basically. Poor poor Terran.
Battle Hellion and Warhound are pretty cool units, but I don't think Blizzard recons that'd be enough to sell the game, they basically fail to please 1/3 (closer to 1/4 atm sadly) of their playerbase. They won't cut the Widow Mine without replacing it with something else.
Also, I fail too see how Zerg units get cool upgrades (Burrow Charge / Hydra Speed) and not a single P/T unit gets a boost.
Reapers upgrading some shit like building attack for 100/100 to become more viable, Vikings getting an upgrade to become more powerful Also, I dislike the low number of anti- air AOE attacks we have.
Why don't they do womething with that?
Warhound battle helions do't solve the fundamental problems with mech and why people prefer bio: immobility and shit anti air.
Anyway, blizzard with the current state of sc2, hots and d3 is basically screaming "don't buy our stuff, we have no clue!"
I think warhound battle hellion is a good start, though the weak anti-air is still a problem. Imo the main reason why mech don't work against protoss is due to immortals and chargelots. Immortals obliterate tanks and take no dmg, while tanks kill your army faster than chargelots.
With battlehellions, it gives a good buffer as a tank units against chargelots, and warhound's haywire may be just the tool mech needs to deal with immortals and possibly even colossus. Since haywire is a spell, it should bypass immortal's harden shield.
Also stalkers are way too dangerous in TvP if u go early mech without some sort of bio transition. And extremely weak against blink stalker harasses once you reach past 2 or 3 bases. Hopefully warhound will fix that as well with high mobility and great mechanical dps
unsure about TvZ, and new unit interaction may throw everything off anyway. Better off waiting for beta
Kinda looks like Terran is going to be the all Infantry army. 4-5 if you count the Thor The Little Tiny Infantry (marine) The Little Infantry (marauder) The Medium Sized Infantry (battle hellions) The Big Infantry (Warhound) The Great Big Infantry (Thor)
Be fun to have them all lined up in a row from very small, small, big, and even bigger. I guess 'infantry' is a stretch/unfair as the last three are BattleMech, but the attack rather looks the same except BIGGER. and BULKIER.
On July 15 2012 00:42 Falling wrote: Has this been posted anywhere? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04CaUCl9mU Kinda looks like Terran is going to be the all Infantry army. 4-5 if you count the Thor The Little Tiny Infantry (marine) The Little Infantry (marauder) The Medium Sized Infantry (battle hellions) The Big Infantry (Warhound) The Great Big Infantry (Thor)
Be fun to have them all lined up in a row from very small, small, big, and even bigger. I guess 'infantry' is a stretch/unfair as the last three are BattleMech, but the attack rather looks the same except BIGGER. and BULKIER.
Anyone else notice how SLOW the hellion are? I mean, the battle hellion are slow but the regular hellion are noticeably slower than their wind of liberty counterpart. Which is INCREDIBLY stupid imo. Hellion are going to be so slow that it will be ineffiecient to drop them and tanks has always been ineffiecient to drop as well due to warping in 5 zealot right in front of it and it dead so I imagine TvP is just going to be terran massing up a death ball and 1-A. Due to mech lacking any form of map control, the widowmine will have to stay in the game but even then I think mech is going to be incredibly boring.
EPT
