It's not about how many units we have, it's about the quality.
This interview was from last month, but I only recently found it and thought it was a rather interesting read. I feel it gives us more of an idea into what Dustin B's direction for the game is, and why the changes are being made the way they are.
I basically paraphrased the interview, and bolded the key aspects as well as interesting things of note.
General - UI is clunky and cluttered. Plan on cleaning it up and implmented clans, groups etc.
- Patch 1.5 will have a similar UI to that of HotS
- Beta will be released sometime after Patch 1.5.
- HotS will likely release 1 month after the beta ends.
- Two new Nydus worms. The first spews creep in a single direction, so you can effectively create a creep highway anywhere on the map. The second is basically a Nydus worm that can only attack enemy structures. This could really interesting and depending on the damage and health, could make for some interesting strategy.
- Hydra speed upgrade is hive tech, and with it, Hydra's have the same movement speed as they would on creep. There is no added bonus for hydras on creep with the upgrade.
- 20 new maps in HotS, primarily focusing on 4-player map sizes forladder.
Dustin's thoughts on the question of "why they are focusing on changing particular aspects of each of the races"
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
- Overall Zerg has moved from being a passive, sit-back and macro race, to a more in your face aggressive, swarming playstyle.
Protoss
- Stargate is underutilized and they want to give more incentive to use it.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
- The mothership core will allow protoss to pressure in the early game, without the risk of losing their high gas cost sentries.
- Protoss lacks the ability to raid, outside of the warp-prism and blink stalkers, however these only work effectively on the pro-level.
Terran
- Terran never goes factory against Protoss
- TvT is stale with tank lines, and the only way to break out of it is the sky battles.
- Wants to give Terran the ability to go mech or bio against protoss without either strategy having to be more dominant than the other, they want the decision to be based on maps, and scouting. Widow Mine
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
- Still having problems finding the right cost and balance for the unit.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
Carrier
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
I think I expanded on this in another bullet point. Basically sentries are really gas intensive, and losing them during an early game push is pretty painful, especially when you lose them during a failed bunker bust or sentry immortal timing push.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
I think I expanded on this in another bullet point. Basically sentries are really gas intensive, and losing them during an early game push is pretty painful, especially when you lose them during a failed bunker bust or sentry immortal timing push.
The fact that this guy is in charge of balance makes me want to cry. Mech was so viable vs protoss before the stupid blue flame nerf.
His points about protoss having to be passive early game is a joke. Before stim which takes forever protoss units dominate the early game in all matchups.
Does he not know about this build called the 4 gate that was the only build that they used in the matchup for like a year and a half (innovators to be sure...)
TvT is stale with tank lines are you kidding me? TvT is by far the best mirror matchup.
I seriously think this guy doesn't even watch current games or something.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
- Overall Zerg has moved from being a passive, sit-back and macro race, to a more in your face aggressive, swarming playstyle.
The issue with the thinking here is that Zerg doesn't have to be the aggressor. Zerg is a macro race and when I play Zerg I'd much rather get more ahead economically than trying to outright kill in the midgame. It's a sit-back race and macro race because it pays to play that way if you want to win. If they Zerg to be more aggressive they are going to have to give it incentive to be the attacker. At the same time this would be have be balanced, because you can't allow the best macro race to also have the best aggression/punishment.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
because zealot stalker does pretty well in the early game if the terran wants to go into the macro game (i.e. 1rax fe) or rather... without marauders or upgrades (stim/cs) in the early game.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
cutting things is always retarded.
including cutting your wrist.
- The mothership core will allow protoss to pressure in the early game, without the risk of losing their high gas cost sentries.
without _any risk_ is stupid there should be some sort of risk for things you do
On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?
nothing, a fat marauder that takes more skill out of the game by killing tank lines so well positioned tanks dont work anymore. and well, even with the widow mine, it takes 10 seconds to detonate. plus i heard on one of the SOTGs that it disappears when you kill the unit its attached to. which anyone with above 60 apm could do. so yeah... nothing. >.<
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
because zealot stalker does pretty well in the early game if the terran wants to go into the macro game (i.e. 1rax fe) or rather... without marauders or upgrades (stim/cs) in the early game.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
What? Zergs can kill in mid game if they go ling/bling/mutas. It is just that the meta game now is to go defensive with infestors/ling and then tech to BLs because BLs are so hard to deal with. Infestors are one of the best defensive units in game. If zergs can push with infestor/ling and end games, I think there will be some issues. It is like saying that terrans with 5 bunkers and turrets can't push their opponents so we need to make bunkers and turrets be able to move...
Overall Zerg has moved from being a passive, sit-back and macro race, to a more in your face aggressive, swarming playstyle
Then nerf fungals (and give zergs something else to compensate). As I said above, infestors are what makes zergs passive because infestors are 10x more effective defending then attacking vs pre split/defensive armies. And infestors are pretty much the backbone of the zerg armies now because they complement BLs AND Ultras so well.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
because zealot stalker does pretty well in the early game if the terran wants to go into the macro game (i.e. 1rax fe) or rather... without marauders or upgrades (stim/cs) in the early game.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
cutting things is always retarded.
including cutting your wrist.
- The mothership core will allow protoss to pressure in the early game, without the risk of losing their high gas cost sentries.
without _any risk_ is stupid there should be some sort of risk for things you do
Do you even play this game? Against 2 bunkers the terran can never die against a 4 gate / 3 gate with repair...
Yes I play this game,
I never heard that bunkers are considered bio units
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
because zealot stalker does pretty well in the early game if the terran wants to go into the macro game (i.e. 1rax fe) or rather... without marauders or upgrades (stim/cs) in the early game.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
cutting things is always retarded.
including cutting your wrist.
- The mothership core will allow protoss to pressure in the early game, without the risk of losing their high gas cost sentries.
without _any risk_ is stupid there should be some sort of risk for things you do
Do you even play this game? Against 2 bunkers the terran can never die against a 4 gate / 3 gate with repair...
Do you? theres this thing called a 2 gas 4gate that you get sentries, throw forcefield over bunkers so they cant be repaired.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
What? Zergs can kill in mid game if they go ling/bling/mutas. It is just that the meta game now is to go defensive with infestors/ling and then tech to BLs because BLs are so hard to deal with. Infestors are one of the best defensive units in game. If zergs can push with infestor/ling and end games, I think there will be some issues. It is like saying that terrans with 5 bunkers and turrets can't push their opponents so we need to make bunkers and turrets be able to move...
Overall Zerg has moved from being a passive, sit-back and macro race, to a more in your face aggressive, swarming playstyle
Then nerf fungals (and give zergs something else to compensate). As I said above, infestors are what makes zergs passive because infestors are 10x more effective defending then attacking vs pre split/defensive armies. And infestors are pretty much the backbone of the zerg armies now because they complement BLs AND Ultras so well.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
because zealot stalker does pretty well in the early game if the terran wants to go into the macro game (i.e. 1rax fe) or rather... without marauders or upgrades (stim/cs) in the early game.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
cutting things is always retarded.
including cutting your wrist.
- The mothership core will allow protoss to pressure in the early game, without the risk of losing their high gas cost sentries.
without _any risk_ is stupid there should be some sort of risk for things you do
Do you even play this game? Against 2 bunkers the terran can never die against a 4 gate / 3 gate with repair...
Do you? theres this thing called a 2 gas 4gate that you get sentries, throw forcefield over bunkers so they cant be repaired.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
What? Zergs can kill in mid game if they go ling/bling/mutas. It is just that the meta game now is to go defensive with infestors/ling and then tech to BLs because BLs are so hard to deal with. Infestors are one of the best defensive units in game. If zergs can push with infestor/ling and end games, I think there will be some issues. It is like saying that terrans with 5 bunkers and turrets can't push their opponents so we need to make bunkers and turrets be able to move...
Overall Zerg has moved from being a passive, sit-back and macro race, to a more in your face aggressive, swarming playstyle
Then nerf fungals (and give zergs something else to compensate). As I said above, infestors are what makes zergs passive because infestors are 10x more effective defending then attacking vs pre split/defensive armies. And infestors are pretty much the backbone of the zerg armies now because they complement BLs AND Ultras so well.
and counter air.
Because that's effective and successful in professional play when the HUGE majority of players go 1 rax FE every game.
Yes I play this game,
I never heard that bunkers are considered bio units
OK, jinro didnt say "bio" so therefore my argument still stands.
On July 10 2012 12:21 benthekid wrote: The fact that this guy is in charge of balance makes me want to cry. Mech was so viable vs protoss before the stupid blue flame nerf.
His points about protoss having to be passive early game is a joke. Before stim which takes forever protoss units dominate the early game in all matchups.
Does he not know about this build called the 4 gate that was the only build that they used in the matchup for like a year and a half (innovators to be sure...)
TvT is stale with tank lines are you kidding me? TvT is by far the best mirror matchup.
I seriously think this guy doesn't even watch current games or something.
1. Nothing is wrong with making mech more viable, blue flame needed to be nerfed but now they want mech more viable, not a problem at all
2. This is true but you neglect to mention how stim makes gateway armies essentially useless so Protoss are most the time favoring quicker tech to deal with bio timings (Also terran was super innovative with the year and a half of 111 as well)
3. TvT is by far the best mirror imo but bio tank is by far the most prevalent style so they want to give more options which is a good thing
I've read it 2 times some time ago (and 3rd time now), when translated it into russion for other site. But there are no specifical information about 1 month of HotS after beta ends. Here are only your speculations about 1 month after beta. It can be 1 week or 2-3 months, and 98% of your info is old, if not 100%
On July 10 2012 12:21 benthekid wrote: The fact that this guy is in charge of balance makes me want to cry. Mech was so viable vs protoss before the stupid blue flame nerf.
His points about protoss having to be passive early game is a joke. Before stim which takes forever protoss units dominate the early game in all matchups.
Does he not know about this build called the 4 gate that was the only build that they used in the matchup for like a year and a half (innovators to be sure...)
TvT is stale with tank lines are you kidding me? TvT is by far the best mirror matchup.
I seriously think this guy doesn't even watch current games or something.
1. Nothing is wrong with making mech more viable, blue flame needed to be nerfed but now they want mech more viable, not a problem at all
2. This is true but you neglect to mention how stim makes gateway armies essentially useless so Protoss are most the time favoring quicker tech to deal with bio timings (Also terran was super innovative with the year and a half of 111 as well)
3. TvT is by far the best mirror imo but bio tank is by far the most prevalent style so they want to give more options which is a good thing
so now it'll turn into marine marauder warhound medivac... hardly a improvement.. i think vast majority of people who play TvT at the higher levels prefer the tanks.
By saying that protoss is forced to be passive, it doesn't necessarily mean he can't attack. It can just mean the protoss units have to stay near the base and not have map control.
Sentries are important and slow. You have to make sure your opponent doesn't have a lot of units out there if you want move out along the map (that's especially true against zerg.)
Nexus recall is the thing I'm excited about the most in HOTS.
I've read it 2 times some time ago (and 3rd time now), when translated it into russion for other site. But there are no specifical information about 1 month of HotS after beta ends. Here are only your speculations about 1 month after beta. It can be 1 week or 2-3 months, and 98% of your info is old, if not 100%
It’s not an unreasonable question but I don’t know, depends on when we ship. Usually, we’ll shut down a month before launch and when we can’t make any more changes. First, we have to finish that 1.5 patch that’s coming, there are few bugs still there. So when that’s done, we’ll start thinking when can the beta be released. And then we calculate when we’ll probably ship.
Of course a lot of the info is old, the interview was made one month ago.
There are just so many ways to break tank lines in TvT that I almost never see this stalemate he is talking about, how is this guy in charge of balance?I shudder to think what will happen to terran with just 1a hellion being added.
Of course a lot of the info is old, the interview was made one month ago.
It’s not an unreasonable question but I don’t know, depends on when we ship. Usually, we’ll shut down a month before launch and when we can’t make any more changes. First, we have to finish that 1.5 patch that’s coming, there are few bugs still there. So when that’s done, we’ll start thinking when can the beta be released. And then we calculate when we’ll probably ship.
Firstly they want to finish 1.5, then add some features like resume from replay or something other of those new Bnet features (blobal play, clan support, coop replay viewing, etc etc).
They don't know, will it be an one month or more.
The main problem of your speculation that someone read it and will sit near your topic and wait, when it will be launched. So better avoid small confuses
On July 10 2012 12:21 benthekid wrote: The fact that this guy is in charge of balance makes me want to cry. Mech was so viable vs protoss before the stupid blue flame nerf.
His points about protoss having to be passive early game is a joke. Before stim which takes forever protoss units dominate the early game in all matchups.
Does he not know about this build called the 4 gate that was the only build that they used in the matchup for like a year and a half (innovators to be sure...)
TvT is stale with tank lines are you kidding me? TvT is by far the best mirror matchup.
I seriously think this guy doesn't even watch current games or something.
1. Nothing is wrong with making mech more viable, blue flame needed to be nerfed but now they want mech more viable, not a problem at all
2. This is true but you neglect to mention how stim makes gateway armies essentially useless so Protoss are most the time favoring quicker tech to deal with bio timings (Also terran was super innovative with the year and a half of 111 as well)
3. TvT is by far the best mirror imo but bio tank is by far the most prevalent style so they want to give more options which is a good thing
so now it'll turn into marine marauder warhound medivac... hardly a improvement.. i think vast majority of people who play TvT at the higher levels prefer the tanks.
While possibly true, i find tank v tank to be incredibly boring to watch. I, for one, am tired of 40 minute tvts, where all the casters do is talk about how important positioning is, until someone finds a place where they can stim in a bunch of marines and shred everything b/c the other player is unsuspecting.
I'm on board with any changes in that aspect of the game.
On July 10 2012 12:21 benthekid wrote: The fact that this guy is in charge of balance makes me want to cry. Mech was so viable vs protoss before the stupid blue flame nerf.
His points about protoss having to be passive early game is a joke. Before stim which takes forever protoss units dominate the early game in all matchups.
Does he not know about this build called the 4 gate that was the only build that they used in the matchup for like a year and a half (innovators to be sure...)
TvT is stale with tank lines are you kidding me? TvT is by far the best mirror matchup.
I seriously think this guy doesn't even watch current games or something.
1. Nothing is wrong with making mech more viable, blue flame needed to be nerfed but now they want mech more viable, not a problem at all
2. This is true but you neglect to mention how stim makes gateway armies essentially useless so Protoss are most the time favoring quicker tech to deal with bio timings (Also terran was super innovative with the year and a half of 111 as well)
3. TvT is by far the best mirror imo but bio tank is by far the most prevalent style so they want to give more options which is a good thing
so now it'll turn into marine marauder warhound medivac... hardly a improvement.. i think vast majority of people who play TvT at the higher levels prefer the tanks.
While possibly true, i find tank v tank to be incredibly boring to watch. I, for one, am tired of 40 minute tvts, where all the casters do is talk about how important positioning is, until someone finds a place where they can stim in a bunch of marines and shred everything b/c the other player is unsuspecting.
I'm on board with any changes in that aspect of the game.
I personally prefer zvz both playing & watching
well to each his own. i like it because its the only instance where tanks are clearly useful instead of the vague times vs zerg where they MIGHT hit banelings and MIGHT hit infestors.
TvT is stale with tank lines, and the only way to break out of it is the sky battles.
Do they even watch SC2?
To be completely fair when is the last time we have actually seen a TvT? They never make it far enough in a tourney to play against each other any more
On July 10 2012 12:21 benthekid wrote: The fact that this guy is in charge of balance makes me want to cry. Mech was so viable vs protoss before the stupid blue flame nerf.
His points about protoss having to be passive early game is a joke. Before stim which takes forever protoss units dominate the early game in all matchups.
Does he not know about this build called the 4 gate that was the only build that they used in the matchup for like a year and a half (innovators to be sure...)
TvT is stale with tank lines are you kidding me? TvT is by far the best mirror matchup.
I seriously think this guy doesn't even watch current games or something.
1. Nothing is wrong with making mech more viable, blue flame needed to be nerfed but now they want mech more viable, not a problem at all
2. This is true but you neglect to mention how stim makes gateway armies essentially useless so Protoss are most the time favoring quicker tech to deal with bio timings (Also terran was super innovative with the year and a half of 111 as well)
3. TvT is by far the best mirror imo but bio tank is by far the most prevalent style so they want to give more options which is a good thing
so now it'll turn into marine marauder warhound medivac... hardly a improvement.. i think vast majority of people who play TvT at the higher levels prefer the tanks.
While possibly true, i find tank v tank to be incredibly boring to watch. I, for one, am tired of 40 minute tvts, where all the casters do is talk about how important positioning is, until someone finds a place where they can stim in a bunch of marines and shred everything b/c the other player is unsuspecting.
I'm on board with any changes in that aspect of the game.
I personally prefer zvz both playing & watching
Then you're watching bad casters who aren't analyzing the moves and countermoves. Every move in those TvT means something and a misstep could lose the game. Instead, the casters just make jokes and mention how they're still trying to get into position without ever explaining why they're doing anything.
That or you're watching bad terrans TvT and they're just sitting there waiting for the other player to get bored
On July 10 2012 12:58 reneg wrote: While possibly true, i find tank v tank to be incredibly boring to watch. I, for one, am tired of 40 minute tvts, where all the casters do is talk about how important positioning is, until someone finds a place where they can stim in a bunch of marines and shred everything b/c the other player is unsuspecting.
I'm on board with any changes in that aspect of the game.
I personally prefer zvz both playing & watching
I feel the opposite. The current TvT Tank marine style is the most fun for me to watch. It is much more about positioning and careful play rather than the colossus clusterfuck that PvP is or the absolute mess that is ZvZ, which I will admit is getting a little more stable, but is still pretty volatile.
I can say right now without playing 1 ZvP the mothership core is going to make 2 base all ins so good it would be stupid not to do them. 2 base all in for WoL will be a timing attack because you can always recall and not lose the game if the Zerg is prepared. Not to cry imba here but it just seems like its going to be annoying if they can do things without any consequence at all. Like if a Zerg player doesn't prepare he loses and if he does its cool just fall back and do a different all in a little bit later seems kind of a weird idea to be pushing in terms of design.
On July 10 2012 13:12 FlukyS wrote: I can say right now without playing 1 ZvP the mothership core is going to make 2 base all ins so good it would be stupid not to do them. 2 base all in for WoL will be a timing attack because you can always recall and not lose the game if the Zerg is prepared. Not to cry imba here but it just seems like its going to be annoying if they can do things without any consequence at all. Like if a Zerg player doesn't prepare he loses and if he does its cool just fall back and do a different all in a little bit later seems kind of a weird idea to be pushing in terms of design.
I'd trade warp gates for the mothership core. Honestly I would rather have slightly buffed units and the Khaydarin Amulet back rather than having to deal with the ridiculous rate at which bio shreds pure gateway units.
Wow I actually read what this Dustin Browder has to say and his justifications for stuff is absolutely atrocious.
Why does Zerg need a different way to push aside from Brood Lords. Since Ghost nerf Brood Lords are quite honestly one of the most ridiculous things to have to stop; yes Zerg may only have one way to "push," but it's the best way in the game and even when you know it's coming you still lose to it. Why does that need to be changed?
Protoss early game has literally always been one of the scariest forces. Zealots, Sentries, and Stalker happen to have won MC 2 GSLs. I have ridiculous amounts of respect for that guy, but he controls his gateway units early game and throughout the entire game better than anybody.
Why do you have to be a pro to use Warp Prisms and Blink Stalkers? Mutalisk control and Terran multipronged drop harass is just as hard if not harder than Warp Prism and Blink Stalkers, so why do Protoss players need some sort of incentive to use those things. It's like when Protoss upgrades got reduced costs--the change itself did nothing really, but the fact that the change occured was completely unnecessary. They were already good, but Blizzard had to basically hold all the Protoss players hands and say, "Well Mr. Protoss player, maybe you should try upgrades and going to the late game instead of that same cheesy 6-8 gate build you do every game." Late game TvP and TvZ are near impossible unless you severely cripple your opponent early game or you are at "pro level." And mech in TvT is impossible to do unless you are "pro level" and even then it comes down to the maps you're playing on, so why are you adding units to stop tank lines in TvT? Terran has always been "balanced" and changed directly based on GSL results and we have always been nerfed because of Mvp and Code S Terrans. Because every where else in the world Terran players were not succeeding. Only in Korea do professional Terrans do well on a large scale or even over 1/3 of the time; foreigner Terrans were doing bad 6 months ago. They weren't doing that great even before then, but Blizzard nerfed Terran because Korean Terrans were still doing well. I am okay with that decision because it forces Terrans and all players to strive to be better players and to perform at a higher level, but have some consistancy in your decisions on what to change, nerf, and implement.
If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
The idea of TvT not being tank based is scary. That's what TvT was in BW. That's what TvT is (although Marauders and Marines are still pretty stupid). That's what TvT should be. TvT should be a slow, positional based, economic warfare. Not two giant armies of Marines a-moving at each other in a conflict that is decided based on Medivac counts and upgrades alone. If Blizzard wants to make mech more viable and have a good TvT, they should just bring back BW Siege Tanks: 70 Damage a volley regardless what it's firing at. Then we'll see some real "stale Tank lines" and I would love it.
It’s not an unreasonable question but I don’t know, depends on when we ship. Usually, we’ll shut down a month before launch and when we can’t make any more changes. First, we have to finish that 1.5 patch that’s coming, there are few bugs still there. So when that’s done, we’ll start thinking when can the beta be released. And then we calculate when we’ll probably ship.
Firstly they want to finish 1.5, then add some features like resume from replay or something other of those new Bnet features (blobal play, clan support, coop replay viewing, etc etc).
They don't know, will it be an one month or more.
The main problem of your speculation that someone read it and will sit near your topic and wait, when it will be launched. So better avoid small confuses
There must be something lost in translation or something, I don't know how to make it more clear for you. Dustin browder said exactly this: Usually, we’ll shut down a month before launch and when we can’t make any more changes.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone reading this topic and speculating a release date a month after the beta ends, when you consider Diablo 3's beta was in april and the game released in May.
Then again Starcraft 2 is in a completely different ball park, when you consider how sensitive balance is for a rts. .
Just reading this again and serving the type of changes, Im very sad abOut the direction the game is going in. I wish the entire process of unit design and balance was more transparent rather than hey we have our own way of determining balance and here it is. As much as this is Blizzards game, it's painful to watch the decisions they've made.
On July 10 2012 13:12 FlukyS wrote: I can say right now without playing 1 ZvP the mothership core is going to make 2 base all ins so good it would be stupid not to do them. 2 base all in for WoL will be a timing attack because you can always recall and not lose the game if the Zerg is prepared. Not to cry imba here but it just seems like its going to be annoying if they can do things without any consequence at all. Like if a Zerg player doesn't prepare he loses and if he does its cool just fall back and do a different all in a little bit later seems kind of a weird idea to be pushing in terms of design.
I'd trade warp gates for the mothership core. Honestly I would rather have slightly buffed units and the Khaydarin Amulet back rather than having to deal with the ridiculous rate at which bio shreds pure gateway units.
The difference between Khaydarin Amulet and just being able to build your HTs in 5 seconds time is really not that big of a difference. Because the HTs are alive longer they start regen-ing energy sooner and will gain 25 energy faster then if you actually build them. Plus, because they build so much faster you can use their other two abilities even sooner. When will Protoss players realize that Warp gates (that 50/50 research you have) is as good if not better than Khaydarin Amulet, Moebius Reactor, or any of the other energy upgrades. That being said, Warp Gates is a dreadful mechanic and is a terrible idea if you want to try to balance your game.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
- Overall Zerg has moved from being a passive, sit-back and macro race, to a more in your face aggressive, swarming playstyle.
The issue with the thinking here is that Zerg doesn't have to be the aggressor. Zerg is a macro race and when I play Zerg I'd much rather get more ahead economically than trying to outright kill in the midgame. It's a sit-back race and macro race because it pays to play that way if you want to win. If they Zerg to be more aggressive they are going to have to give it incentive to be the attacker. At the same time this would be have be balanced, because you can't allow the best macro race to also have the best aggression/punishment.
the race that u just described is the way Terran is supposed to be played...
On July 10 2012 13:15 The Final Boss wrote: Wow I actually read what this Dustin Browder has to say and his justifications for stuff is absolutely atrocious.
Why does Zerg need a different way to push aside from Brood Lords. Since Ghost nerf Brood Lords are quite honestly one of the most ridiculous things to have to stop; yes Zerg may only have one way to "push," but it's the best way in the game and even when you know it's coming you still lose to it. Why does that need to be changed?
Protoss early game has literally always been one of the scariest forces. Zealots, Sentries, and Stalker happen to have won MC 2 GSLs. I have ridiculous amounts of respect for that guy, but he controls his gateway units early game and throughout the entire game better than anybody.
Why do you have to be a pro to use Warp Prisms and Blink Stalkers? Mutalisk control and Terran multipronged drop harass is just as hard if not harder than Warp Prism and Blink Stalkers, so why do Protoss players need some sort of incentive to use those things. It's like when Protoss upgrades got reduced costs--the change itself did nothing really, but the fact that the change occured was completely unnecessary. They were already good, but Blizzard had to basically hold all the Protoss players hands and say, "Well Mr. Protoss player, maybe you should try upgrades and going to the late game instead of that same cheesy 6-8 gate build you do every game." Late game TvP and TvZ are near impossible unless you severely cripple your opponent early game or you are at "pro level." And mech in TvT is impossible to do unless you are "pro level" and even then it comes down to the maps you're playing on, so why are you adding units to stop tank lines in TvT? Terran has always been "balanced" and changed directly based on GSL results and we have always been nerfed because of Mvp and Code S Terrans. Because every where else in the world Terran players were not succeeding. Only in Korea do professional Terrans do well on a large scale or even over 1/3 of the time; foreigner Terrans were doing bad 6 months ago. They weren't doing that great even before then, but Blizzard nerfed Terran because Korean Terrans were still doing well. I am okay with that decision because it forces Terrans and all players to strive to be better players and to perform at a higher level, but have some consistancy in your decisions on what to change, nerf, and implement.
If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
The idea of TvT not being tank based is scary. That's what TvT was in BW. That's what TvT is (although Marauders and Marines are still pretty stupid). That's what TvT should be. TvT should be a slow, positional based, economic warfare. Not two giant armies of Marines a-moving at each other in a conflict that is decided based on Medivac counts and upgrades alone. If Blizzard wants to make mech more viable and have a good TvT, they should just bring back BW Siege Tanks: 70 Damage a volley regardless what it's firing at. Then we'll see some real "stale Tank lines" and I would love it.
Why don't you just say that the changes are atrocious because it does not work for you? You're so Terran biased
On July 10 2012 13:15 The Final Boss wrote: Wow I actually read what this Dustin Browder has to say and his justifications for stuff is absolutely atrocious.
Why does Zerg need a different way to push aside from Brood Lords. Since Ghost nerf Brood Lords are quite honestly one of the most ridiculous things to have to stop; yes Zerg may only have one way to "push," but it's the best way in the game and even when you know it's coming you still lose to it. Why does that need to be changed?
Protoss early game has literally always been one of the scariest forces. Zealots, Sentries, and Stalker happen to have won MC 2 GSLs. I have ridiculous amounts of respect for that guy, but he controls his gateway units early game and throughout the entire game better than anybody.
Why do you have to be a pro to use Warp Prisms and Blink Stalkers? Mutalisk control and Terran multipronged drop harass is just as hard if not harder than Warp Prism and Blink Stalkers, so why do Protoss players need some sort of incentive to use those things. It's like when Protoss upgrades got reduced costs--the change itself did nothing really, but the fact that the change occured was completely unnecessary. They were already good, but Blizzard had to basically hold all the Protoss players hands and say, "Well Mr. Protoss player, maybe you should try upgrades and going to the late game instead of that same cheesy 6-8 gate build you do every game." Late game TvP and TvZ are near impossible unless you severely cripple your opponent early game or you are at "pro level." And mech in TvT is impossible to do unless you are "pro level" and even then it comes down to the maps you're playing on, so why are you adding units to stop tank lines in TvT? Terran has always been "balanced" and changed directly based on GSL results and we have always been nerfed because of Mvp and Code S Terrans. Because every where else in the world Terran players were not succeeding. Only in Korea do professional Terrans do well on a large scale or even over 1/3 of the time; foreigner Terrans were doing bad 6 months ago. They weren't doing that great even before then, but Blizzard nerfed Terran because Korean Terrans were still doing well. I am okay with that decision because it forces Terrans and all players to strive to be better players and to perform at a higher level, but have some consistancy in your decisions on what to change, nerf, and implement.
If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
The idea of TvT not being tank based is scary. That's what TvT was in BW. That's what TvT is (although Marauders and Marines are still pretty stupid). That's what TvT should be. TvT should be a slow, positional based, economic warfare. Not two giant armies of Marines a-moving at each other in a conflict that is decided based on Medivac counts and upgrades alone. If Blizzard wants to make mech more viable and have a good TvT, they should just bring back BW Siege Tanks: 70 Damage a volley regardless what it's firing at. Then we'll see some real "stale Tank lines" and I would love it.
Why don't you just say that the changes are atrocious because it does not work for you? You're so Terran biased
Or maybe it's cause he plays Terran and can only comment on those changes. Or maybe Terran is getting what we hate the most, a 1A unit that makes mech viable but in the worst way possible.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
Hmm..... doesn't sound right. Zerg is already powerful as of now and can kill.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
Tempest. 22 range. I don't even.
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
Personally, I don't really think that there is a problem with Terran slowly leap-frogging their tanks across the map to take control. Also, we have sensor towers. Widow mines also look like a rather odd way to 'control' the map.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
looks like they still have no idea how to play their own game, whats new
dustins right, protoss cant go harrassing or sharking zergs or terrans with just a few stalkers and zealots with the current builds, maybe like against a 3 base zerg, but its just not the same threat as 30 speedlings or 5 marines and a couple marauders.
On July 10 2012 13:15 The Final Boss wrote: Wow I actually read what this Dustin Browder has to say and his justifications for stuff is absolutely atrocious.
Why does Zerg need a different way to push aside from Brood Lords. Since Ghost nerf Brood Lords are quite honestly one of the most ridiculous things to have to stop; yes Zerg may only have one way to "push," but it's the best way in the game and even when you know it's coming you still lose to it. Why does that need to be changed?
Protoss early game has literally always been one of the scariest forces. Zealots, Sentries, and Stalker happen to have won MC 2 GSLs. I have ridiculous amounts of respect for that guy, but he controls his gateway units early game and throughout the entire game better than anybody.
Why do you have to be a pro to use Warp Prisms and Blink Stalkers? Mutalisk control and Terran multipronged drop harass is just as hard if not harder than Warp Prism and Blink Stalkers, so why do Protoss players need some sort of incentive to use those things. It's like when Protoss upgrades got reduced costs--the change itself did nothing really, but the fact that the change occured was completely unnecessary. They were already good, but Blizzard had to basically hold all the Protoss players hands and say, "Well Mr. Protoss player, maybe you should try upgrades and going to the late game instead of that same cheesy 6-8 gate build you do every game." Late game TvP and TvZ are near impossible unless you severely cripple your opponent early game or you are at "pro level." And mech in TvT is impossible to do unless you are "pro level" and even then it comes down to the maps you're playing on, so why are you adding units to stop tank lines in TvT? Terran has always been "balanced" and changed directly based on GSL results and we have always been nerfed because of Mvp and Code S Terrans. Because every where else in the world Terran players were not succeeding. Only in Korea do professional Terrans do well on a large scale or even over 1/3 of the time; foreigner Terrans were doing bad 6 months ago. They weren't doing that great even before then, but Blizzard nerfed Terran because Korean Terrans were still doing well. I am okay with that decision because it forces Terrans and all players to strive to be better players and to perform at a higher level, but have some consistancy in your decisions on what to change, nerf, and implement.
If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
The idea of TvT not being tank based is scary. That's what TvT was in BW. That's what TvT is (although Marauders and Marines are still pretty stupid). That's what TvT should be. TvT should be a slow, positional based, economic warfare. Not two giant armies of Marines a-moving at each other in a conflict that is decided based on Medivac counts and upgrades alone. If Blizzard wants to make mech more viable and have a good TvT, they should just bring back BW Siege Tanks: 70 Damage a volley regardless what it's firing at. Then we'll see some real "stale Tank lines" and I would love it.
Why don't you just say that the changes are atrocious because it does not work for you? You're so Terran biased
Well I play Terran and I don't think I said anything in that post to try to hide that fact so it should not be that surprising that my view of this game has a rather Terran bias. It's what I know the most about. The fact of the matter is that Dustin Browder seems to be trying to fix things that don't need to be fixed: Zerg pushing power, Protoss early game, or Protoss harassment.
Now we come to the Terran changes. As a player who likes to mech, I like the ideas behind the Terran changes, but even then, I think the Warhound is a terrible idea and the Widow Mine seems stupid. Just give me Vultures and take away my Thor energy and I will mech in 100% of my games. You don't need to give me crappy looking models (talking about you Warhound) and gimmicky units, just give me solid, mechanical units--that's what made mech good in BW, that's why people play mech, and that's what they should be aiming for.
On July 10 2012 13:15 The Final Boss wrote: Wow I actually read what this Dustin Browder has to say and his justifications for stuff is absolutely atrocious.
Why does Zerg need a different way to push aside from Brood Lords. Since Ghost nerf Brood Lords are quite honestly one of the most ridiculous things to have to stop; yes Zerg may only have one way to "push," but it's the best way in the game and even when you know it's coming you still lose to it. Why does that need to be changed?
Protoss early game has literally always been one of the scariest forces. Zealots, Sentries, and Stalker happen to have won MC 2 GSLs. I have ridiculous amounts of respect for that guy, but he controls his gateway units early game and throughout the entire game better than anybody.
Why do you have to be a pro to use Warp Prisms and Blink Stalkers? Mutalisk control and Terran multipronged drop harass is just as hard if not harder than Warp Prism and Blink Stalkers, so why do Protoss players need some sort of incentive to use those things. It's like when Protoss upgrades got reduced costs--the change itself did nothing really, but the fact that the change occured was completely unnecessary. They were already good, but Blizzard had to basically hold all the Protoss players hands and say, "Well Mr. Protoss player, maybe you should try upgrades and going to the late game instead of that same cheesy 6-8 gate build you do every game." Late game TvP and TvZ are near impossible unless you severely cripple your opponent early game or you are at "pro level." And mech in TvT is impossible to do unless you are "pro level" and even then it comes down to the maps you're playing on, so why are you adding units to stop tank lines in TvT? Terran has always been "balanced" and changed directly based on GSL results and we have always been nerfed because of Mvp and Code S Terrans. Because every where else in the world Terran players were not succeeding. Only in Korea do professional Terrans do well on a large scale or even over 1/3 of the time; foreigner Terrans were doing bad 6 months ago. They weren't doing that great even before then, but Blizzard nerfed Terran because Korean Terrans were still doing well. I am okay with that decision because it forces Terrans and all players to strive to be better players and to perform at a higher level, but have some consistancy in your decisions on what to change, nerf, and implement.
If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
The idea of TvT not being tank based is scary. That's what TvT was in BW. That's what TvT is (although Marauders and Marines are still pretty stupid). That's what TvT should be. TvT should be a slow, positional based, economic warfare. Not two giant armies of Marines a-moving at each other in a conflict that is decided based on Medivac counts and upgrades alone. If Blizzard wants to make mech more viable and have a good TvT, they should just bring back BW Siege Tanks: 70 Damage a volley regardless what it's firing at. Then we'll see some real "stale Tank lines" and I would love it.
1) Because it gives Zerg an aggressive mid-game option. You shouldn't have to turtle until Broodlords are out to kill someone. If you spend your resources towards whatever will kill them NOW your broodlords will be out LATER, so it doesn't make any balance difference on that end.
2) Yeah, when 4gate was ridiculous. When was the last time you saw that? When was the last time you saw a non-all-in (or at least risky) gateway pressure? If you lose all of your early sentries you're basically done in PvZ, and they're extremely slow. They aren't BUFFING the early game army of protoss, they're making it not ridiculously risky to leave your base with it.
3) It was a consistency thing, they shouldn't have been that expensive to begin with.
You just sound extremely Terran biased to be honest.
For Protoss : -We want to give Protoss players the ability to not to fuck up and lose their early game army. So if they made the most stupid decision to headbump into bunkered ramps, they should be forgiven. -These builds don't exist : 4 gate - 6 gate - 8 gate etc. So we want to give more chance to attack early game.
For Zerg : -We don't think perfect tech switches, ability to macro hard, best production mechanic amongst 3 races, etc. are enough. So we wanted to make zerg overally the utopic race, which can be also in your face aggressive.
For Terran : -Something about widow mine -Something about widow mine -If there will be problems we will remove widow mine.
On July 10 2012 13:19 The Final Boss wrote: The difference between Khaydarin Amulet and just being able to build your HTs in 5 seconds time is really not that big of a difference. Because the HTs are alive longer they start regen-ing energy sooner and will gain 25 energy faster then if you actually build them. Plus, because they build so much faster you can use their other two abilities even sooner. When will Protoss players realize that Warp gates (that 50/50 research you have) is as good if not better than Khaydarin Amulet, Moebius Reactor, or any of the other energy upgrades. That being said, Warp Gates is a dreadful mechanic and is a terrible idea if you want to try to balance your game.
It's not that. I just don't like the trade-off for Protoss is Warp gates for having units that could actually function in small numbers. Stalkers kinda suck on their own. Zealots are super easy to kite. and Sentrys are only good for making your stalkers/zealots useful. I think that it's much more interesting when you have the option for small widespread battles across the map rather than the obnoxious deathball clusterfuck that is the current game. Even Muta-ling-bling play has been filtered out, which IMO made TvZ one of the most interesting MU. I prefer back and forth and positional type games, like the current TvT, where tactics themselves differentiate styles of play. Also, I don't like the mentality that you either do some kind of all-in timing or you turtle up until you have x number of HT, Colo and then can finally move out, crushing your opponents forces as you 1a through his army.
On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?
- warhounds - reaper upgrade - battlecruiser upgrade - other stuff they haven't shown yet - terran has more concepts/units/upgrades than the other races already, since their 'expansion' was first and the per race expansions are a really gross idea
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
How about the only answer to mass Brood Lord, Corruptor, Infestor? (and even that you need to literally be maxed out on pure carrier).
Also cutting the Widow Mine is really stupid. It's pretty clear that it's one of the more interesting new Terran units. Then again, both of the other new Terran units are pretty much bland generic solutions.
Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
I totally agree and to fend off any criticism DB is likely to talk about pre-warp gate timings. What can the protoss player do with only gateways except the 2gate rush? Well... i think DB nailed it. This would allow the protoss to explore the defense of the opponent without committing to a big warp gate timing.
On July 10 2012 13:31 Kull of Atlantis wrote: From what I read their approach is
For Protoss : -We want to give Protoss players the ability to not to fuck up and lose their early game army. So if they made the most stupid decision to headbump into bunkered ramps, they should be forgiven. -These builds don't exist : 4 gate - 6 gate - 8 gate etc. So we want to give more chance to attack early game.
For Zerg : -We don't think perfect tech switches, ability to macro hard, best production mechanic amongst 3 races, etc. are enough. So we wanted to make zerg overally the utopic race, which can be also in your face aggressive.
For Terran : -Something about widow mine -Something about widow mine -If there will be problems we will remove widow mine.
Sounds about right. Except they are adding a fat marauder too.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
How about the only answer to mass Brood Lord, Corruptor, Infestor? (and even that you need to literally be maxed out on pure carrier).
Also cutting the Widow Mine is really stupid. It's pretty clear that it's one of the more interesting new Terran units. Then again, both of the other new Terran units are pretty much bland generic solutions.
Given that they seem to be willing to cut the widow mine at any sign of problems, I think they may have another unit to add to the terran arsenal that can fit some of the holes they want to fill with the widow mine. I just don't like how in almost every interview, David and Dustin constantly talk about how they are willing to remove it from the game. :/
1) Because it gives Zerg an aggressive mid-game option. You shouldn't have to turtle until Broodlords are out to kill someone. If you spend your resources towards whatever will kill them NOW your broodlords will be out LATER, so it doesn't make any balance difference on that end.
You don't HAVE to turtle. Zerg choose to turtle because infestors are better in the current meta. You can still muta/ling/bane bust in mid game. Problem with option to allow infestor/ling to be offensive is that terrans have to PREPARE for it. Now, terrans can start viking/maruader production when they see infestors because they know zerg won't push until T3 are out. But if it becomes viable to bust with infestor based army, terran will need to continue making tanks/marines,
Every one of these interviews gets more more excited about HotS.. especially the part about Zerg being too passive and unable to attack a reasonably defended opponent ZvP and ZvT. I have high hopes now!
On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?
- warhounds - reaper upgrade - battlecruiser upgrade - other stuff they haven't shown yet - terran has more concepts/units/upgrades than the other races already, since their 'expansion' was first and the per race expansions are a really gross idea
.............. sounds like the stupid "terran was imba first so zerg should be imba now" arguement except its "terran had more shit so it should have less now"
as for the reaper, do you really believe life regeneration for a 50 life unit is gonna change the entire game and make people use it? they still explode if so much as touched and you lose 50 gas for it. battlecruiser upgrade is speed isnt it? thats only thing thats decent i guess.
I just hope too god Blizzard is looking far into the future and knows things that we don't. They could be looking at the third expansion already and trying too fit everything together so when the final expo hits everything will be very, very close to balanced and this game will be what we all want it to.
I know, I have high hopes, but I love this game and I don't want too see it die in the next couple years
On July 10 2012 13:31 Kull of Atlantis wrote: From what I read their approach is
For Protoss : -We want to give Protoss players the ability to not to fuck up and lose their early game army. So if they made the most stupid decision to headbump into bunkered ramps, they should be forgiven. -These builds don't exist : 4 gate - 6 gate - 8 gate etc. So we want to give more chance to attack early game.
For Zerg : -We don't think perfect tech switches, ability to macro hard, best production mechanic amongst 3 races, etc. are enough. So we wanted to make zerg overally the utopic race, which can be also in your face aggressive.
For Terran : -Something about widow mine -Something about widow mine -If there will be problems we will remove widow mine.
Sounds about right. Except they are adding a fat marauder too.
"ability to macro hard", "best production mechanic". Empty, straw-man statements. P and T can also "macro hard" (rofl), and the "best production mechanic in the game" comes at a cost, and with considerable effort, and can disturbed more easily than the other races'. Not to mention zerg units are inherently worse, and with less range, etc. etc. etc. They need to have more and the ability to produce more at a time. It's starcraft 101.
On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?
- warhounds - reaper upgrade - battlecruiser upgrade - other stuff they haven't shown yet - terran has more concepts/units/upgrades than the other races already, since their 'expansion' was first and the per race expansions are a really gross idea
.............. sounds like the stupid "terran was imba first so zerg should be imba now" arguement except its "terran had more shit so it should have less now"
as for the reaper, do you really believe life regeneration for a 50 life unit is gonna change the entire game and make people use it? they still explode if so much as touched and you lose 50 gas for it. battlecruiser upgrade is speed isnt it? thats only thing thats decent i guess.
Reapers are going too be terrans version of the muta, only on ground, and worse
On July 10 2012 13:31 Kull of Atlantis wrote: From what I read their approach is
For Protoss : -We want to give Protoss players the ability to not to fuck up and lose their early game army. So if they made the most stupid decision to headbump into bunkered ramps, they should be forgiven. -These builds don't exist : 4 gate - 6 gate - 8 gate etc. So we want to give more chance to attack early game.
For Zerg : -We don't think perfect tech switches, ability to macro hard, best production mechanic amongst 3 races, etc. are enough. So we wanted to make zerg overally the utopic race, which can be also in your face aggressive.
For Terran : -Something about widow mine -Something about widow mine -If there will be problems we will remove widow mine.
Sounds about right. Except they are adding a fat marauder too.
"ability to macro hard", "best production mechanic". Empty, straw-man statements. P and T can also "macro hard" (rofl), and the "best production mechanic in the game" comes at a cost, and with considerable effort, and can disturbed more easily than the other races'. Not to mention zerg units are inherently worse, and with less range, etc. etc. etc. They need to have more and the ability to produce more at a time. It's starcraft 101.
Come on man.
Zerg has arguably the two best units in the game.. infestor/broodlord
[*]If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
[/list]
This, right here. They've literally stated that the main reason they nerfed Thors is that they didn't like the way Mass Thors LOOKS. I'm not making that up. Now, if they're not going to change the way the Thor looks, and yet it's ONE of THREE factory units, and the only one with AA, how the hell can they expect anyone to ever learn how to mech vs protoss in WoL? It would be like, mass marauder looks bad- we'll just make them way easier to kill. Okay, now go bio!
On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?
- warhounds - reaper upgrade - battlecruiser upgrade - other stuff they haven't shown yet - terran has more concepts/units/upgrades than the other races already, since their 'expansion' was first and the per race expansions are a really gross idea
Reapers are not gonna have anymore utility than it does now. War hounds are 1A units that has the only purpose of countering a Protoss army to make mech viable. That's not good design. It's boring and having more stuff that doesn't require micro lowers the skill ceiling and makes the game overall less fun to play and watch. BC upgrade is a speed boost with energy? There's nothing fundamentally changing about it, still a 1A ship.
And this perception that Terrans have more things than other races is silly. True in Beta and early SC2 but pretty much everything has been hit by the nerf bat at least once. Why do you see bio as the dominant style forever? Cause Terrans are too lazy to be innovative? It's just frustrating to see blizzard be lazy about game design and get away with it cause it's some races expansion. Should I just switch races every expansion?
On July 10 2012 13:31 Kull of Atlantis wrote: From what I read their approach is
For Protoss : -We want to give Protoss players the ability to not to fuck up and lose their early game army. So if they made the most stupid decision to headbump into bunkered ramps, they should be forgiven. -These builds don't exist : 4 gate - 6 gate - 8 gate etc. So we want to give more chance to attack early game.
For Zerg : -We don't think perfect tech switches, ability to macro hard, best production mechanic amongst 3 races, etc. are enough. So we wanted to make zerg overally the utopic race, which can be also in your face aggressive.
For Terran : -Something about widow mine -Something about widow mine -If there will be problems we will remove widow mine.
Sounds about right. Except they are adding a fat marauder too.
"ability to macro hard", "best production mechanic". Empty, straw-man statements. P and T can also "macro hard" (rofl), and the "best production mechanic in the game" comes at a cost, and with considerable effort, and can disturbed more easily than the other races'. Not to mention zerg units are inherently worse, and with less range, etc. etc. etc. They need to have more and the ability to produce more at a time. It's starcraft 101.
Come on man.
that was in Brood War. Zerg's units are amazing if you didn't notice. Were you missing starcraft 201 classes?
Not to mention zerg units are inherently worse, and with less range, etc. etc. etc. They need to have more and the ability to produce more at a time. It's starcraft 101.
On July 10 2012 12:02 Ketara wrote: You want a good argument for the Carrier?
Make it work like you want Tempest to work. Give the Interceptors an upgrade that sends them out at 22 range.
There. Carrier is what you want Tempest to be, but it's cool while the Tempest is dumb.
amen. i thought also you could just give carriers the 22 range cannon and increase the interceptor deployment range to 10 or 11 or something instead of what it is now
On July 10 2012 13:31 Kull of Atlantis wrote: From what I read their approach is
For Protoss : -We want to give Protoss players the ability to not to fuck up and lose their early game army. So if they made the most stupid decision to headbump into bunkered ramps, they should be forgiven. -These builds don't exist : 4 gate - 6 gate - 8 gate etc. So we want to give more chance to attack early game.
For Zerg : -We don't think perfect tech switches, ability to macro hard, best production mechanic amongst 3 races, etc. are enough. So we wanted to make zerg overally the utopic race, which can be also in your face aggressive.
For Terran : -Something about widow mine -Something about widow mine -If there will be problems we will remove widow mine.
Sounds about right. Except they are adding a fat marauder too.
"ability to macro hard", "best production mechanic". Empty, straw-man statements. P and T can also "macro hard" (rofl), and the "best production mechanic in the game" comes at a cost, and with considerable effort, and can disturbed more easily than the other races'. Not to mention zerg units are inherently worse, and with less range, etc. etc. etc. They need to have more and the ability to produce more at a time. It's starcraft 101.
Come on man.
Are you serious? What effort? Injecting every so often? Thats hard? And you're using less range of what, zerglings? What about infestors super fungal range and broodlords ability to siege from super far away?
On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?
- warhounds - reaper upgrade - battlecruiser upgrade - other stuff they haven't shown yet - terran has more concepts/units/upgrades than the other races already, since their 'expansion' was first and the per race expansions are a really gross idea
.............. sounds like the stupid "terran was imba first so zerg should be imba now" arguement except its "terran had more shit so it should have less now"
as for the reaper, do you really believe life regeneration for a 50 life unit is gonna change the entire game and make people use it? they still explode if so much as touched and you lose 50 gas for it. battlecruiser upgrade is speed isnt it? thats only thing thats decent i guess.
The BC upgrade is just a 6-second speed boost for (I believe) 100 energy.
[*]If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
This, right here. They've literally stated that the main reason they nerfed Thors is that they didn't like the way Mass Thors LOOKS. I'm not making that up. Now, if they're not going to change the way the Thor looks, and yet it's ONE of THREE factory units, and the only one with AA, how the hell can they expect anyone to ever learn how to mech vs protoss in WoL? It would be like, mass marauder looks bad- we'll just make them way easier to kill. Okay, now go bio!
The Thor is just a dumb fucking unit. It's designed so poorly they can't make it really fit. They're either overpowered or useless.
On July 10 2012 12:02 Ketara wrote: You want a good argument for the Carrier?
Make it work like you want Tempest to work. Give the Interceptors an upgrade that sends them out at 22 range.
There. Carrier is what you want Tempest to be, but it's cool while the Tempest is dumb.
amen. i thought also you could just give carriers the 22 range cannon and increase the interceptor deployment range to 10 or 11 or something instead of what it is now
Let Protoss micro it. There you go, carrier solved
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
because zealot stalker does pretty well in the early game if the terran wants to go into the macro game (i.e. 1rax fe) or rather... without marauders or upgrades (stim/cs) in the early game.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
cutting things is always retarded.
including cutting your wrist.
- The mothership core will allow protoss to pressure in the early game, without the risk of losing their high gas cost sentries.
without _any risk_ is stupid there should be some sort of risk for things you do
Do you even play this game? Against 2 bunkers the terran can never die against a 4 gate / 3 gate with repair...
Hmm... Do YOU even play this game? Look at sase's builds in PvT. He does a 1 gate into expand + 2 gates pressure. It's far from being all-in (since you have a really early nexus) and at the ~7 minutes mark he has the most cost effective composition he can have. So unless the Terran has 3 or 4 bunkers (even with 3 it might be hard to hold off) the Protoss player is almost always in a good position afterwards.
There is really a flaw in the way Blizzard is balancing things. What made BW a great game was tightly made builds, and players are just starting to do that in SC2, but if Blizzard continues heavily monitoring things this way, we may never see what strategy geniuses could have come with. It's ok to add/remove units in new expansions (that's the whole point of it actually), but do it for the good reasons. And yes, there should be risks to poking around with sentries, and they aren't too heavy at the moment. Sentries have forcefields, a great tool to get out of many bad situations.
Turning an advantage a clever zerg can make in midgames into wins, very good. More cascading advantages like is seen in a way with the mass 11min roach vs toss third approach back in a Stephano era. Eco lead zoom crashing waves of roaches pelting the shore.
Stargate consideration, Yes! Raiding options/tweaks, yes! I don't think Protoss needs the power that a stim drop/doubledrop packs, but something in between a prism full of zealots with a warpin and one with full energy templars.
Terran changes totally depend on their implementation. I will be awaiting to hear how they'll make the factory a standard route against Protoss instead of being confined to the fringes. (Maru still builds siege tanks, but top gamers factory units are rarely seen.
Zerg attack Nydus Worms would entirely depend on implementation. Is it attacking like a hydra dps against units? Or will it get a powerful anti-structure attack? Is it low cost, cheap nuisance or higher cost force-to-be-reckoned with? Creep nydus worms ... unless they make the spew range ridiculous, I don't see them coming into play.
On July 10 2012 13:53 rezoacken wrote: Oh another thread with everyone defending their favorite race. Lets wait for the beta, we'll complain there with real first hand experience.
The last time we waited without testing something extensively, The queen range was put in and made every Terran cry tears of blood.
[*]If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
This, right here. They've literally stated that the main reason they nerfed Thors is that they didn't like the way Mass Thors LOOKS. I'm not making that up. Now, if they're not going to change the way the Thor looks, and yet it's ONE of THREE factory units, and the only one with AA, how the hell can they expect anyone to ever learn how to mech vs protoss in WoL? It would be like, mass marauder looks bad- we'll just make them way easier to kill. Okay, now go bio!
The Thor is just a dumb fucking unit. It's designed so poorly they can't make it really fit. They're either overpowered or useless.
The only time the Thor was considered "overpowered" was following the series between ThorZaIN and MC in TSL3. Other than ThorZaIN's usage of Thors in TvP, I don't think it was used at all in a major tournament before it got nerfed. If you don't give a strategy like that to Korea and let them try to figure out how to beat it, how can you really say for a fact that it is OP? Look at Mutalisks. For a long time ZvP was dominated by them, but eventually Koreans started to figure ZvP out and there was no real balance change (lol Phoenix upgrade). So if Korea can do that to the Mutalisk and change the metagame (and frankly the Mutalisk had more results that proved it's "imbalance" or "OP-ness"), who says the Thor could not have found a place in the metagame too.
But if you want to talk about things that are designed so poorly that they can never really fit, I would love to talk about that: Warp Gates - either the units are too good or they're too poop. Because they build instantly and anywhere, you have to make units less strong, but in doing so, after the units are actually made with the Warp Gate, those units are distinctly worse. Void Rays - if the maps can abuse Void Ray openings, then they will dominate (Kulas, Blistering Sands, even Metalopolis), but right now they are basically never used because the maps do not have rocks in the right places/other ways to abuse early Voids. They also are a weird unit because they're high tech, but work best in small numbers where they can get charged. Talk about a stupid snow-bally unit.
Good thing that Blizzard has addressed how they plan on fixing those in HotS... Oh wait, nevermind, Blizzard is giving Protoss a 22 Range Flying monstrosity. You want to talk about a terrible unit design, well there you have it!
On July 10 2012 13:53 rezoacken wrote: Oh another thread with everyone defending their favorite race. Lets wait for the beta, we'll complain there with real first hand experience.
lol patch 1.4.3. enough said Zerg can now start with a 3base economy by the 4:20 mark and Hive comes at 15:00, AND they get one of the most dangerous (and relatively easily made) late-game compositions The Tempest just sounds like a really stupid unit. From the VoDs, it appears to be this giant super-cannon that's slow as hell and has really slow firing rate, and it's not even splash. If you have like 5 or 6 of them I suppose it could be useful but other than that it just seems like a total waste of money. If they would allow the Carrier to be microable (like BW..) it would be pretty freaking awesome
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
terran= even more fucked. They might actually take out the widow mine, leave us with wana be goliaths and battle hellions. I'm giving blizzard a high five for not even taking a look at t's late game. yeah!
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
Agreed.
I really get the impression that blizzard doesn't play their own games.
Also,
"I don’t know what the ladder rotation will look like. We’ve seen the tendency of a general growth in size as the games are getting more macro oriented. When we look back in the beta I remember having stuff like Steppes of War and our biggest map being Desert Oasis at this point. And now I’m seeing maps where protoss is taking an early third and I’m like “What is going on?” *laughs* “This is a very different game than the one we launched two years ago.” Now we see terrans and protosses early expanding which is much different to the beta. This is evolution and the evolution will continue: I don’t know to where as a lot of this is dictated by the maps the community like to play, the kinds of things happening during the games"
Based on the last ladder map added to the pool (the biggest map yet by any standard), they still seem to be incompetent at making maps. Early expanding? in starcraft? Never!! (Trollface) As if people didn't early expo in BW.... Watch them introduce 20 new maps that are all stupidly gigantic for hots, and yet the community has come up with so much better stuff that will never see the light of day.
And they still haven't finalized the units and the expansion is supposed to come out in a few months. I don't mean to be alarmist but I am fearful for this expansion... Blizzards last 3 games have been cataclysm, SC2 and D3, in my book they are 1 for 3 out of those. Lets see if they can get their average up to .500 or if they will be sent back down to the minor leagues for practice.
The thing that seems to bother me with the way they want to balance Zerg is that they can make kill moves at almost every point in the game where as Terran and Protoss don't have that luxury. Three hatch builds already set them up for an earlier end game...... a midgame kill move off of 3 hatches when Zerg already has a super advantage just seems completely absurd.
Protoss lacks the ability to raid, outside of the warp-prism and blink stalkers, however these only work effectively on the pro-level.
Really? Do they forget that even though it takes precious APM of a lower level player to use WP or harass with Blink Stalkers, it also takes precious APM of the equally low skilled opponent to defend?
Also widow mine might be cut? Shit lol... if there's no replacement, that would suck. (Or I mean, if there's nothing to fill its role)
TvT is NOT stale. Sure one player may transition into air battles. Is this wrong? Remember if it's Bio vs Mech, and Bio transitions into air, then no problem! Mech just transitions to air as well, right? Well then what happens? The Air player transitions back into bio, and mech player responds with mech. It just goes back and forth, I don't see how that's quite stale. I like how TvT has so many "phases".
Seem like people really don't understand what Browder said. When he said that TvT is stale when it's seigeline vs siegeline I'm pretty sure he means mech vs mech which is somewhat true. Siegetank vs Siegetank alone is boring. That's why we enjoy bio vs mech or marine tank vs marine tank. Everything in HotS looks quite good imo except for the oracle which is stupid.
On July 10 2012 14:16 Wildmoon wrote: Seem like people really don't understand what Browder said. When he said that TvT is stale when it's seigeline vs siegeline I'm pretty sure he means mech vs mech which is somewhat true. Siegetank vs Siegetank alone is boring. That's why we enjoy bio vs mech or marine tank vs marine tank.
When was the last time you saw a mech vs mech TvT? Those types of games always become pure air battles anyways.
On July 10 2012 14:16 Wildmoon wrote: Seem like people really don't understand what Browder said. When he said that TvT is stale when it's seigeline vs siegeline I'm pretty sure he means mech vs mech which is somewhat true. Siegetank vs Siegetank alone is boring. That's why we enjoy bio vs mech or marine tank vs marine tank.
When was the last time you saw a mech vs mech TvT? Those types of games always become pure air battles anyways.
With Warhound you may be able to be more agressive in Mech vs Mech. I know that people fear that few Warhound will be able to just destroy siegeline and mech won't be viable in TvT but I don't think it will happen.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
That's generally true against zerg.
And PvP too really, IE, nothing actually happens until tier 2 (blink/robo/stargate). Not that that's actually a bad thing tho, it's one hell of a lot better than the ol 4gate days.
It's not about how many units we have, it's about the quality.
This interview was from last month, but I only recently found it and thought it was a rather interesting read. I feel it gives us more of an idea into what Dustin B's direction for the game is, and why the changes are being made the way they are.
I basically paraphrased the interview, and bolded the key aspects as well as interesting things of note.
General
Terran
- Terran never goes factory against Protoss
- TvT is stale with tank lines, and the only way to break out of it is the sky battles.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
just no... TvT is the only mirror match even worth looking at.
who is he kidding, you don't need sky battles to break out of tank lines. Maybe in woods league or terrible maps like metalapolis
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
Protoss has an insane amount of early game allins, wtf does he mean by passive. Protoss can either be more passive than a sedated sloth, or more aggro than a rabid monkey on PCP. Not as easy to play inbetween the two, but it's possible.
The idea of TvT not being tank based is scary. That's what TvT was in BW. That's what TvT is (although Marauders and Marines are still pretty stupid). That's what TvT should be. TvT should be a slow, positional based, economic warfare. Not two giant armies of Marines a-moving at each other in a conflict that is decided based on Medivac counts and upgrades alone. If Blizzard wants to make mech more viable and have a good TvT, they should just bring back BW Siege Tanks: 70 Damage a volley regardless what it's firing at. Then we'll see some real "stale Tank lines" and I would love it.
Tanks should be prominent, I agree, but they actually didn't do 70 damage to all units in SC1, they did significantly less vs small units than vs large. Don't remember %ages anymore sadly.
Also, their upgrades were way better / way more impact (+5 per upgrade, 2+ would mean you 2 shotted enemy siege tanks etc).
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
Protoss has an insane amount of early game allins, wtf does he mean by passive. Protoss can either be more passive than a sedated sloth, or more aggro than a rabid monkey on PCP. Not as easy to play inbetween the two, but it's possible.
The comment about zealot stalker sentry being weak or underused early game is the single dumbest thing i have heard. MC made his name off gateway timings. They are still retarded strong against terran and zerg
im hoping firebats and that miniThor anti-mech thing is something usefull. doesnt seem like siege tanks will b any usefull with the new upgrade. range and speed boost etc. and more
This is very sad. He is completely disconnected from reality and the irony of his own statements (EG why the Carrier yet he made a long range unit like the carrier). David Kim should be required to watch all top level games--do more to be informed and to inform browder and stop proactively 'balancing' and appearing to do his job.
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
- Still having problems finding the right cost and balance for the unit.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
Can someone please tell Dustin that no one calls the marine army "the deathball". That term is mostly used for the protoss army of gateway+robotics units. Terrans have a "bio ball" or MMM.
Blizzard's statements seem so out of touch from community and top players' sentiments because they balance using spreadsheets and hard stats from all leagues, from bronze to gsl.
Statistical data often times diverges from a "tiny and biased" point of view of the community.
I'm not defending any of the specific bulletpoints, but just stating the way they operate, which is by no means perfect.
On July 10 2012 14:52 0neder wrote: This is very sad. He is completely disconnected from reality and the irony of his own statements (EG why the Carrier yet he made a long range unit like the carrier. David Kim should be required to watch all top level games, do more to be informed and less to proactively 'balance' and appear to do his job.
I thought this was wierd too.....couldnt you just increase the range of carrier and call it good? Say like 3 more range? Instead we get all these fancy pancy reveals for a unit that is a disguised carrier (with super range)
Then take the tempest shorten range to 7 make is slightly smaller. Bonus damage verse armored, Fires faster, moves faster, cost less. Then put it in place of void ray
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
How was "That's unique" any different for "cool and iconic". You just showed what Dustin Browder means.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
How was "That's unique" any different for "cool and iconic". You just showed what Dustin Browder means.
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
- Still having problems finding the right cost and balance for the unit.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
Can someone please tell Dustin that no one calls the marine army "the deathball". That term is mostly used for the protoss army of gateway+robotics units. Terrans have a "bio ball" or MMM.
That was the funniest part of the MLG interview that they gave because no one knew what he was talking about. The reason they called the protoss ball a "deathball" and the reason they are starting to call broodlord/infestor a "deathball" is that if you go for a strait up fight you get killed by that ball. MMM does not fight those armies like that, it uses its mobility to strike away from the main force and avoid a direct engagement until force is whittled down properly.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
How was "That's unique" any different for "cool and iconic". You just showed what Dustin Browder means.
Because within the unique ability there's a lot to be explored from a design perspective, and that's exciting and can make for interesting abilities which can make for an interesting game.
The lurker is iconic, but has similar functionality to burrowed banelings, which is why they were removed I believe (despite some community dislike).
And when I say unique units, they aren't just about art design (icon) but are indeed about game/unit design (unique). If DBrowder doesn't want 'cool' units in his game I don't know if he's making a game or a spreadsheet. Anyone making a game wants to make it cool, else we'd all be making stock analysis programs for major banks.
Oh but I guess it's harder to balance than a-move units where we only need to modify numbers like range =S
I think what the protoss changes with the mothership core really means is that they want protoss to be able to pressure without committing in the early game. Example being the rather dated 3gate expo vs. Zerg. You HAD to pressure with it and force like 2-3 spines along with a bunch of units, but you had to get out without getting overwhelmed to stay even. If the zerg randomly decided to make like 30 speedlings, you just lost the game. I like non-allin pressure builds like that, except for the part about randomly dying. Stuff that can kill if you were overly greedy, where you sacrifice some economy, but the units are not commited(ie if you can't do anything you can get out without losing more than 20% of your initial force).
I know people don't like the 6/7/8 gate allins, but right now, even at higher levels, you don't move a protoss army(blink stalkers not included) around the map without being able to fight whatever army the other player has head-on simply because the bulk of it in both PvZ and PvT is slower than the other guy's army, and if caught, doesn't really escape.
For zerg I am liking the hydra speed thing. Once they hit hive, hydra's are insanely ludicrously scary. Whenever you fought on creep with hydras they were always a good unit. It's just off of creep they were slow. Now they could have a speedling hydra army based solely around countering, which while squishy, moves silly fast and kills shit fast too.
I dislike Browder's approach to TvT, because tank lines MAKE TvT. From that analysis some time ago, TvT a better player had less than a 10% chance to lose to an inferior player. There's literally no randomness to that matchup because superior decision-making always triumphs.
Mech was and should always be a positional army that's at worst equal in strength to anybody attacking it head-on. It should be weaker than most other armies if you make a get caught or misposition. I don't think it should EVER be an a-move army unless you get an advantage.
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
- Still having problems finding the right cost and balance for the unit.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
Can someone please tell Dustin that no one calls the marine army "the deathball". That term is mostly used for the protoss army of gateway+robotics units. Terrans have a "bio ball" or MMM.
That was the funniest part of the MLG interview that they gave because no one knew what he was talking about. The reason they called the protoss ball a "deathball" and the reason they are starting to call broodlord/infestor a "deathball" is that if you go for a strait up fight you get killed by that ball. MMM does not fight those armies like that, it uses its mobility to strike away from the main force and avoid a direct engagement until force is whittled down properly.
this exactly rofl
its hilarious how dustin WATCHES this game and still doesnt understand it... rofl... at mlg they were talking about all the changes they were doing to "take units out of the terran deathball" rofl............... and the audience didnt know wtf he was talking about
zerg has a deathball protoss has a deathball
they are called deathballs because if you ever try to fight it head on, you will experience your death
terran has an army, that needs to be everywhere around the map at all times doing what it can where it can because if it tries to fight the enemy deathball it loses
terran does not have a deathball rofl .............. hilarious that these guys are head of sc2 balance
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
How was "That's unique" any different for "cool and iconic". You just showed what Dustin Browder means.
Because within the unique ability there's a lot to be explored from a design perspective, and that's exciting and can make for interesting abilities which can make for an interesting game.
The lurker is iconic, but has similar functionality to burrowed banelings, which is why they were removed I believe (despite some community dislike).
And when I say unique units, they aren't just about art design (icon) but are indeed about game/unit design (unique). If DBrowder doesn't want 'cool' units in his game I don't know if he's making a game or a spreadsheet. Anyone making a game wants to make it cool, else we'd all be making stock analysis programs for major banks.
Oh but I guess it's harder to balance than a-move units where we only need to modify numbers like range =S
the lurker wasnt similar functionality to burrowed banelings... they were space control units like tanks.... like if you had lurkers on top of a ramp it'll be hard as hell to bust with ground units. how many burrowed banelings would you need to accomplish the same effect?
The most interesting question now is whether they'll bring some limitation to the warpgate system. Because it's great that they're allowing Protoss players to attack without commiting as much, and that they get better defensive options, but if everything else stays the same the Risk/Reward is going to favour Protoss ridiculously.
Recently David Kim rightly said that if you let people just mass an army and a-move, then that's what people will do because that's the easiest and safest way to win. That to me is the issue with Protoss, it's not that Stargate needs a buff (although I'm happy with it too), it's that the rest is too strong. If the last build they showed ends up being the real thing, I predict Protoss players will experiment with Stargates for about a month and then it'll be back to the same gateway and robo crap.
im hoping for absolutely no new units. nothing new. i play protoss i dont like anything on there. stick to buffing and nerfing until you find that special place
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
How was "That's unique" any different for "cool and iconic". You just showed what Dustin Browder means.
Because within the unique ability there's a lot to be explored from a design perspective, and that's exciting and can make for interesting abilities which can make for an interesting game.
The lurker is iconic, but has similar functionality to burrowed banelings, which is why they were removed I believe (despite some community dislike).
And when I say unique units, they aren't just about art design (icon) but are indeed about game/unit design (unique). If DBrowder doesn't want 'cool' units in his game I don't know if he's making a game or a spreadsheet. Anyone making a game wants to make it cool, else we'd all be making stock analysis programs for major banks.
Oh but I guess it's harder to balance than a-move units where we only need to modify numbers like range =S
the lurker wasnt similar functionality to burrowed banelings... they were space control units like tanks.... like if you had lurkers on top of a ramp it'll be hard as hell to bust with ground units. how many burrowed banelings would you need to accomplish the same effect?
Too many, I know. Not saying it was a great decision, but I do believe those were the words from Blizzard regarding the Lurkers removal right? I can't find the source, but I do remember people discussing this once upon a time.
"One is a nydus worm that spews creep in a direction, quite a distance right now so you can create a creep highway and go wherever you want to go"
That´s a GREAT idea, not that currently Terrans have trouble denying creepspread in the current meta. Sure the meta will shift, but i can see a meta in HOTS where creepdspread is still a huge issue.
On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?
[...] - reaper upgrade [...] - terran has more concepts/units/upgrades than the other races already, since their 'expansion' was first and the per race expansions are a really gross idea
Wow, if we are expected to look forward to the reaper upgrade then I can really understand the depressed and whining terrans. Right now Reapers are at least fun in teammatches (3v3 and up) to annihilate entire bases, but without the grenades they aren't even good for that anymore. The reaper regeneration is either overpowered in the early game or completely underwhelming. That's simply because of the design of the reaper as a low hp high dps fast unit. And my bet on the upgrade is that it will be completely underwhelming. The new reaper upgrade is not a new feature, its a hidden nerf because Blizzard was pissed at low level player bases getting owned in 4v4 by reapers from the first day of the release onwards, so now they found a way to take away the reaper grenades. Good job Blizzard. Maybe just get rid of the whole unit instead because its horrible from a design perspective as it overlaps with like 3 other terran units that have the only purpose of harassing workers and can't do anything else.
Also I don't think they designed the multiplayer units around the fact that terran had the first singleplayer campaign. It just turned out to be that way. Now they are bringing the races a little bit closer in that regard and it is a good thing, I like the Battle Hellion and partly the Warhound (I think the antimechanical is pretty stupid design, but it is good that its a solid army unit and not a low hp gimmicky harass shit unit). But they should have really got rid of units like the reaper and the thor, which are impossible to balance. The thor isn't even fun to use. It is just awful in every regard. And I thought they know, because they wanted to get rid of it. But somehow it got back in, although no one likes to use it. Great.
On July 10 2012 14:31 Sroobz wrote: It literally looks like Blizzard has no idea about high level sc2. Literally
@ 1:30 -> This supports your statement. When Browder is asked about the situation where a mothership comes into play late game ZvP and the game is decided by either protoss landing a vortex or zerg landing a neural parasite, he seems like he has no idea that this ever happens.
On another note, I honestly feel like TvT plays out the best of all matchups. Protoss seems like the race is designed to do timing based all ins or turtle until max supply. Zerg has many options in every matchup, but most zerg play seems to be based around getting such an econ advantage or hive tech and rolling over the opponent with that advantage. TvP and TvZ basically boils down to, terran must constantly do damage in predictable ways all game long or get mauled by AOE and long range dmg in the late game.
The balance they are attempting to achieve is 50% win rates, and they appear to pay little attention to how the match ups actually play out. I really hope they make some serious changes in how they approach "balance" in the expansions. If they continue in their current direction they are leaving the door wide open for another RTS to dethrone Starcraft.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
It's a unit which builds units!?!?! That's unique!
Oh well guys, you heard it from the man's mouth himself, Blizzard designers aren't able to creatively think outside the box. Ugh, my brain.
The whole "we should keep the carrier" thread has tens of good ideas, but they're buried in the debate that Browder himself seems to only be able to see. If it was just "It's Iconic" vs "It's a bad unit" then I'd be on the "its a bad unit" side. But I mean, come on look at it as a flying floating mini-stargate and wham! That's one hell of an exciting unit.
But hey, guess it's hard to a-move and doesn't work well in it's current form. Better not use it.
How was "That's unique" any different for "cool and iconic". You just showed what Dustin Browder means.
Because within the unique ability there's a lot to be explored from a design perspective, and that's exciting and can make for interesting abilities which can make for an interesting game.
The lurker is iconic, but has similar functionality to burrowed banelings, which is why they were removed I believe (despite some community dislike).
And when I say unique units, they aren't just about art design (icon) but are indeed about game/unit design (unique). If DBrowder doesn't want 'cool' units in his game I don't know if he's making a game or a spreadsheet. Anyone making a game wants to make it cool, else we'd all be making stock analysis programs for major banks.
Oh but I guess it's harder to balance than a-move units where we only need to modify numbers like range =S
the lurker wasnt similar functionality to burrowed banelings... they were space control units like tanks.... like if you had lurkers on top of a ramp it'll be hard as hell to bust with ground units. how many burrowed banelings would you need to accomplish the same effect?
Too many, I know. Not saying it was a great decision, but I do believe those were the words from Blizzard regarding the Lurkers removal right? I can't find the source, but I do remember people discussing this once upon a time.
well blizz tends to spew a ton of rubbish. "terran deathball" case in point.
what they want to do with terran is very ambitious. Mech is already somewhat viable in the other matchups so straight up buffing is out of the question, and mech/bio combinations might be real strong all of the sudden. Good luck blizzard
On July 10 2012 15:47 TheAwesomeAll wrote: what they want to do with terran is very ambitious. Mech is already somewhat viable in the other matchups so straight up buffing is out of the question, and mech/bio combinations might be real strong all of the sudden. Good luck blizzard
Don't think about balance as much as concept. Numbers can be changed much more easily than concepts can. You can straight up buff stuff in an expansion without problem so long as other stuff that's added balances it out. The question is if both bio AND mech is viable, would it make for a better game?
To be honest I feel more confident in what the tempest is turning into. I know it's easy to go crazy over 22 range and how highly abusable it is, but dustin's analytical explanation on it makes me feel like it will be a decently good unit, in that "well my command center is getting attacked, i have 30 seconds to a minute to figure out what to do here" as opposed to a herd of tanks and say in 4 seconds "oh snap i gotta get out naaaooowwwww".
The tempest does make you think. You think "okay, I have 25 seconds to deal with this tempest's harassment... do I just go kill it? Or is he waiting for me to come out in the open?"
On July 10 2012 15:47 TheAwesomeAll wrote: Mech is already somewhat viable in the other matchups so straight up buffing is out of the question, and mech/bio combinations might be real strong all of the sudden. Good luck blizzard
In what matchups is mech somewhat viable?
All of them, but only at sub-pro levels. MechvZ is almost a thing at pro levels, but typically gets rolled fairly easily at that level.
MechvP has some good guides here on Team Liquid, but contributors are largely no higher than the masters level, so viability of high masters+ level Protoss players is somewhat undetermined. If I do recall faintly ST_Hack went mech against CreatorPrime in TSL4 qualifier finals? I haven't caught the game yet and he did lose, but mech isn't totally unviable against Protoss.
Overall it's just a very different way of playing, and almost overly passive compared to the aggressive bio, biomech, drop and harass play that terrans are good at. And if the opponent chooses mobility over deathball then mech armies are easy to outmanouvre short of split map super lategame.
On July 10 2012 15:47 TheAwesomeAll wrote: Mech is already somewhat viable in the other matchups so straight up buffing is out of the question, and mech/bio combinations might be real strong all of the sudden. Good luck blizzard
In what matchups is mech somewhat viable?
TvT and TvZ. It's...viable ish. Yeah, it's fallen way out of favor since the blue flame nerf, but I would say that mech is still pretty strong in those MUs.
What better reason to have something in a game other than it being "cool and iconic"? That kind of thing makes the game more fun. Now work on making the carrier competitively useful BECAUSE it's so cool and iconic.
On July 10 2012 16:04 Rad wrote: What better reason to have something in a game other than it being "cool and iconic"? That kind of thing makes the game more fun. Now work on making the carrier competitively useful BECAUSE it's so cool and iconic.
I thought the same.
They say they try to come up with cool units, and now they already have one that a lot of people actually think it's cool and they want to remove it. Nice reasoning there Dustin!
Zerg being the best race in the game currently will became literally unbeatable late game in HOTS. Also to note if they decide they will end their games even in mid-game.
Ahhh , how sweet!
Terrans being worried about the widow mine but we all know it will most certainly get through. That scary 1a mech army with moveable mines is coming!
Protoss ... Jesus don't even get me started
Protoss gets an air ship which will be completely fucking useless in straight fights. And that is the last thing Protoss needs in late game. We need a fucking air ship that is good in straight fights,that can win us against the fucking unbeatable late game zerg composition. The Tempest will contribute fuck all in late game.
"Hey but the Tempest is strategic artillery unit" .. oh yeah? Tell me please, how are you gonna chip at one of the zerg 7 bases in late game and how he is not just gonna roll over to you and completely dismantle you with his fucking imbalanced infestor/broodlord/buffed ultralisk/buffed hydralisk/viper combo. I seriously doubt that the Tempest will contribute with anything against those units in order for you to defend.
Hey maybe we are gonna use them in PvT! We are gonna chip on the bases of terran with it! Doesn't matter that they can mass repair their buildings, medivacs can heal bio and last but not least the biffy mech units which can also be mass repaired!
I mean how fucking good is that?
Probably they will have a use in PvP - If you want to lose a game , start massing Tempest. That way you will have so much useless units tighed in supplay that the other player will simply overrun you.
So great!
Hey mass recall is neat because we can bail out if things fuck up! Not bad ,not bad. The oracle may be useful but as time passes we will see how he is gonna blend out when the other races learn to deal with it.
There is one main fucking problem with Protoss and I just don't see anyone adressing it.
Zerg players get the swarm host , the viper aka infestor #2 , buffed hydralisks , buffed ultralisk.
Terran players get buffed reapers , battle hellions , warhounds which look terrifyingly good in straight battles , widow mines , buffed bc's.
Protoss players gets a harassing air caster , a retreat spell in the face of the recall and a useless late game junk unit with the Tempest.
So where is that person on planet Earth that will explain to me how in the blue hell is Protoss supposed to keep with the firepower of the other 2 races? We don't get any new units that are good at attacking or buffed old ones. Questionable air caster that may become useless as time progresses and a retreat fucking spell for the cost of a ton of chronoboost. The Tempest is a fucking joke.
So Protoss is still gonna be the worst fucking race in HOTS also? This is fucking bullshit.
[*]If you want Terran to go Factory against Protoss maybe you should not have nerfed Thors... If you want Terran to go mech then you should not have nerfed it into oblivion after it was used in a single match in a single big tournament.
This, right here. They've literally stated that the main reason they nerfed Thors is that they didn't like the way Mass Thors LOOKS. I'm not making that up. Now, if they're not going to change the way the Thor looks, and yet it's ONE of THREE factory units, and the only one with AA, how the hell can they expect anyone to ever learn how to mech vs protoss in WoL? It would be like, mass marauder looks bad- we'll just make them way easier to kill. Okay, now go bio!
The Thor is just a dumb fucking unit. It's designed so poorly they can't make it really fit. They're either overpowered or useless.
The only time the Thor was considered "overpowered" was following the series between ThorZaIN and MC in TSL3. Other than ThorZaIN's usage of Thors in TvP, I don't think it was used at all in a major tournament before it got nerfed. If you don't give a strategy like that to Korea and let them try to figure out how to beat it, how can you really say for a fact that it is OP? Look at Mutalisks. For a long time ZvP was dominated by them, but eventually Koreans started to figure ZvP out and there was no real balance change (lol Phoenix upgrade). So if Korea can do that to the Mutalisk and change the metagame (and frankly the Mutalisk had more results that proved it's "imbalance" or "OP-ness"), who says the Thor could not have found a place in the metagame too.
But if you want to talk about things that are designed so poorly that they can never really fit, I would love to talk about that: Warp Gates - either the units are too good or they're too poop. Because they build instantly and anywhere, you have to make units less strong, but in doing so, after the units are actually made with the Warp Gate, those units are distinctly worse. Void Rays - if the maps can abuse Void Ray openings, then they will dominate (Kulas, Blistering Sands, even Metalopolis), but right now they are basically never used because the maps do not have rocks in the right places/other ways to abuse early Voids. They also are a weird unit because they're high tech, but work best in small numbers where they can get charged. Talk about a stupid snow-bally unit.
Good thing that Blizzard has addressed how they plan on fixing those in HotS... Oh wait, nevermind, Blizzard is giving Protoss a 22 Range Flying monstrosity. You want to talk about a terrible unit design, well there you have it!
Way to pick up my one line and run off on a tangent that is completely irrelevant to what I said. I agree with you that terran mech is shit vs protoss, but thors 'un-nerfed' are not your answer. It's a shit, boring unit. Nothing you said contradicts that. The Mutalisk, on the other hand, is not a boring, shit unit.
The rest of your post I don't really care to comment on as it's not what I was discussing.
On July 10 2012 14:31 Sroobz wrote: It literally looks like Blizzard has no idea about high level sc2. Literally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wZe8m9P7fw&t=1m29s @ 1:30 -> This supports your statement. When Browder is asked about the situation where a mothership comes into play late game ZvP and the game is decided by either protoss landing a vortex or zerg landing a neural parasite, he seems like he has no idea that this ever happens.
On another note, I honestly feel like TvT plays out the best of all matchups. Protoss seems like the race is designed to do timing based all ins or turtle until max supply. Zerg has many options in every matchup, but most zerg play seems to be based around getting such an econ advantage or hive tech and rolling over the opponent with that advantage. TvP and TvZ basically boils down to, terran must constantly do damage in predictable ways all game long or get mauled by AOE and long range dmg in the late game.
The balance they are attempting to achieve is 50% win rates, and they appear to pay little attention to how the match ups actually play out. I really hope they make some serious changes in how they approach "balance" in the expansions. If they continue in their current direction they are leaving the door wide open for another RTS to dethrone Starcraft.
in the video i really dont get the fact that he thinks zerg and protoss are unable to break siege lines "no matter how much i have" ling bane muta breaks marine tank medivacs lines a ton + for protoss im sure no one thinks the immortal is bad against tank.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
I think I expanded on this in another bullet point. Basically sentries are really gas intensive, and losing them during an early game push is pretty painful, especially when you lose them during a failed bunker bust or sentry immortal timing push.
In the afternoon of Friday, June 8th, we caught up with Dustin Browder, StarCraft 2's lead designer.
This interview was done a month ago and it only now got posted on TL?
Slasher waited weeks before he posted his interviews with David Kim.
Excuse me but whichever race invests in a push which fails should be behind. It's the same with T, at least after the multiple nerfs, you push with 1-2 medivacs and MM or pure MM and if you dont do extra damage (not just trade) you are way behind (since the defender should have better economy).
Okay, guys, plain and simple, Blizzard doesn't know a thing about TvT, they don't really know how Zerg works and they want to change the midgame-offensive race to all-around offensive race. Typical Blizzard.
To all those of us who actually like to play Terran, we either need to become godlike and win games regardless of balance changes or we need to change our race.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????
because zealot stalker does pretty well in the early game if the terran wants to go into the macro game (i.e. 1rax fe) or rather... without marauders or upgrades (stim/cs) in the early game.
- If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
cutting things is always retarded.
including cutting your wrist.
- The mothership core will allow protoss to pressure in the early game, without the risk of losing their high gas cost sentries.
without _any risk_ is stupid there should be some sort of risk for things you do
Do you even play this game? Against 2 bunkers the terran can never die against a 4 gate / 3 gate with repair...
Do you play this game? Last time i played 2 bunkers absolutely die to any serious P push Hint: you have to FF the bunkers so that scvs cannot repair.
Angry Terran don't get it. It will be a new game with dozens of balance patches during and after the beta. I hope the nydus worm will add something new to the game, not a improved creep tumor.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
Protoss
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
Terran
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
These points are so laughable and wrong, it's not even funny anymore. It's a shame the game's own creators and testers don't understand shit about the game...
On July 10 2012 16:37 HubertFelix wrote: Angry Terran don't get it. It will be a new game with dozens of balance patches during and after the beta. I hope the nydus worm will add something new to the game, not a improved creep tumor.
I don't think many people worry about the balance. I think many people worry about the design concepts and how much fun it will be to play terran.
On July 10 2012 16:37 HubertFelix wrote: Angry Terran don't get it. It will be a new game with dozens of balance patches during and after the beta. I hope the nydus worm will add something new to the game, not a improved creep tumor.
really, the only thing i'm angry about is that they feel like messing up TvT up
it's like the marauder ultimately failed to be the unit to easymode break tank lines so they feel like they need to come up with an even better marauder
currently TvT is the only MU that plays like a proper starcraft match, hopefully during beta someone way better at the game than i am can explain exactly why the current implementation of warhound is really bad
On July 10 2012 16:37 HubertFelix wrote: Angry Terran don't get it. It will be a new game with dozens of balance patches during and after the beta. I hope the nydus worm will add something new to the game, not a improved creep tumor.
I don't think many people worry about the balance. I think many people worry about the design concepts and how much fun it will be to play terran.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
I take it DB does not watch SC2 with this comment. e.g. 12 min roach ling max usually does the job. T&P crying everywhere in mid game. Get protoss late and they have a good shot. Terran? well thats sad story from 12 min on.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
Compatred to what? Protoss is 100x capable in early game than terran. Pylon blocks. Cannon rushes. 4 Zealot pressure. SG pressure. all without being an in all to slow down Zerg. Not to mention all the powerful 2 base all ins. Basically this Mr Browder is clueless.
Is that 1v1 maps or what? I guess if you include the casual maps (the ones not for ladder... for example all the melee maps that are bad and were there from the beginning of WoL like Terminus and Burial Grounds) then 20 is believable. If it's 20 ladder worthy maps then wow, awesome.
I'm guessing that probably includes 2v2 3v3 and 4v4 too though...? They say they're focusing on 4 player maps, is that referring to 1v1? Is it a separate statement than the "20 maps" one?
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
Protoss
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
Terran
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
These points are so laughable and wrong, it's not even funny anymore. It's a shame the game's own creators and testers don't understand shit about the game...
How many possibilities for early aggression do you see for a protoss that are not all ins. Early all ins are boring to watch, but pressure is really cool. PvZ has become a matchup where nobody attacks for about 8 minutes, this has diminished the viewer experience for me, I always just tune in 5 minuts after the game has started. About zergs pushing their advantage, this seems to concern the cases where a protoss or terran all-in failed. I think it is true that zerg really has a tool to finish the game with overlord speed and drop. Breaking the front can be hard, but most pros leave when the game is clearly lost and do not defend their two bases forever when they are 100 supply behind.
As a spectator I want to see games with early pressure that is not game deciding, but only gives an advantage to the side who handles it better (reaper openings, 1 rax bunker pressure these openings are somewhat rare in the meta game, but I think they are cool to watch). Once the advantage has accumulated to an amount where no comeback is possible I want the game to end fast.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
I take it DB does not watch SC2 with this comment. e.g. 12 min roach ling max usually does the job. T&P crying everywhere in mid game. Get protoss late and they have a good shot. Terran? well thats sad story from 12 min on.
I usually don't see 12 min roach ling max killing the protoss directly, maybe this happened earlier. When the zerg wins this mostly seems to be the case because he denies the protoss a third for long enough. Not beacause he breaks the wall at the natural.
without _any risk_ is stupid there should be some sort of risk for things you do
i think the risk is that it won't have energy to be converted to cannon
And also a missed opportunity is a risk. If you spent the energy for a no damage attack, then it will take a while until you can start another one, while the opponent can improve it's eco.
The expansion doesn't address some serious issues in TvZ late game, and instead it raises new threats and issues. Although Battlehellions may have some use and help against Ling-Bling heavy armies, Terran hasn't been given any new units to help deal with Infestor-Broods/Ultras. Instead there's going to be new threats from Stimpack Speed Hydras and Viper pulls. Although Hydras needed a boost in speed from their WoL counterpats, it's a little ridiculous that their speed will be that fast, and it'll be the same on and off creep. With the current metagame, Zergs are understanding the benefit of having fast creep spread already. The speed upgrade should give them a decent boost, but still retain some sort of benefit from creep.
The factory focused units for Terran may give new a-move options in TvP, and some new strategies for TvT but it sorely lacks in TvZ. There's nothing in that patch to help Terrans late game, unless they extensively rework the Widow Mines. That 10 second (in-game) detonation is a joke.
On July 10 2012 17:18 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: TvT is great compared to PvP. Mass colosi to win? PvP is the stale and shit matchup if the game doesnt end with the first attack
I think collosy vs collosy can be broken up by 22 range tempests. But maybe we will see tempest vs tempest battles that also won't be that interressting.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
Mass carrier is very boring (as it is basically just a-move). And if you talk about implementing carriers in other unit compositions protoss just rarely has a gap in the unit roles that only can be filled with the carrier.
- Stargate is underutilized and they want to give more incentive to use it.
Carrier
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
Mass carrier is very boring (as it is basically just a-move). And if you talk about implementing carriers in other unit compositions protoss just rarely has a gap in the unit roles that only can be filled with the carrier.
Carriers are awesome when microed.
Also I thought Blizzards design philosophy was to make cool units.
On July 10 2012 17:18 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: TvT is great compared to PvP. Mass colosi to win? PvP is the stale and shit matchup if the game doesnt end with the first attack
I think collosy vs collosy can be broken up by 22 range tempests. But maybe we will see tempest vs tempest battles that also won't be that interressting.
Like 22 range is gonna make it in. Everything will get toned down.(Viper pull/widow mine dmg/etc)
Plus,seeing 22 range tempest vs 22 range tempest?LOL Not sure whether it will be boring or fun actually.
- Stargate is underutilized and they want to give more incentive to use it.
Carrier
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
Mass carrier is very boring (as it is basically just a-move). And if you talk about implementing carriers in other unit compositions protoss just rarely has a gap in the unit roles that only can be filled with the carrier.
Carriers are awesome when microed.
Also I thought Blizzards design philosophy was to make cool units.
- Stargate is underutilized and they want to give more incentive to use it.
Carrier
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
Mass carrier is very boring (as it is basically just a-move). And if you talk about implementing carriers in other unit compositions protoss just rarely has a gap in the unit roles that only can be filled with the carrier.
Carriers are awesome when microed.
Also I thought Blizzards design philosophy was to make cool units.
And How exactly do you micro a CARRIER?
Watch SC/BW.
Carriers would be just as shit as in SC2 there, but SC/BW actually allows you to control your units... ..
The protoss also had difficulty pushing in the early game: they could either go all in or they can hide, because sentries are slow, zealots are slow. You can go pure stalker, surely, but when you move against zerg you better be sure you can win, because you are not coming home if you don’t: those sentries will be ran over and killed and that’s a lot of gas.
Completely agree with that, but 2 things are needed 1) Make it easier for Protoss to attack without going all in 2) Make all ins weaker
So far they've come up with an interesting solution for 1) but I think 2) really needs to be adressed.
- Stargate is underutilized and they want to give more incentive to use it.
Carrier
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
Mass carrier is very boring (as it is basically just a-move). And if you talk about implementing carriers in other unit compositions protoss just rarely has a gap in the unit roles that only can be filled with the carrier.
Carriers are awesome when microed.
Also I thought Blizzards design philosophy was to make cool units.
And How exactly do you micro a CARRIER?
You fly around the map hugging cliffs, harassing bases, attacking units that will keep the interceptors out and carriers away from danger, and focus firing constantly.
TvT is fine with tank lines. Positioning war. It's great.
TvT is like what i imagine RTS should be like...various harrass strategies possible at the start, positional and tactical play later on, etc. I guess that's not good enough though.
Honestly, I don't really see why they can't just give the carrier the 22 range or something similarly ridiculous and call it a wrap. They could do so much with that unit that they're just... not. Now THAT's a graviton catapult =P
TvT is fine with tank lines. Positioning war. It's great.
TvT is like what i imagine RTS should be like...various harrass strategies possible at the start, positional and tactical play later on, etc. I guess that's not good enough though.
Exactly. I started laddering again after ages and after the initial cascade of losses the best and most enjoyable games by far that i played were TvTs. At the start there always was harass of some kind which could end tha game but not if defended properly and then the games transitioned to long, difficult positional and tactical plays which at the same time requires you to CONTROL your units properly. The games vs Z were of the type 3 bases by 5 minutes and an ubreakable zerg defense which leads to hive by 14-15 minutes and gglords and those vs P were mostly huge turtling fests where you pray to be able to control well in the first 200/200 engagement.
I don't even understand why I read/watch interviews with this man anymore. I just get angry on something he says about the matchups and unit designs everytime. :3
I don't doubt Dustins passion for the game, but when it comes to developing he is not that sharp. For spending 60+ (?) hours per week thinking, working and developing SC2 his conclusions are pretty bad, terran really needs something more fun. Dustin needs to take more help from pro players.
On July 10 2012 12:02 Ketara wrote: You want a good argument for the Carrier?
Make it work like you want Tempest to work. Give the Interceptors an upgrade that sends them out at 22 range.
That sounds nice in theory but would require difficult work involving increasing interceptor health and making them last much longer attacking their target before reloading.
On July 10 2012 17:45 lunchrush wrote: Honestly, I don't really see why they can't just give the carrier the 22 range or something similarly ridiculous and call it a wrap. They could do so much with that unit that they're just... not. Now THAT's a graviton catapult =P
I think its obvious that Browder just doesn't want BW units.
He seems to have double standards for BW units and SC2 units.
On July 10 2012 12:02 Ketara wrote: You want a good argument for the Carrier?
Make it work like you want Tempest to work. Give the Interceptors an upgrade that sends them out at 22 range.
There. Carrier is what you want Tempest to be, but it's cool while the Tempest is dumb.
I assume the 22 range suggestion is a joke ... but aside from that, you're right. I don't understand how Browder can say that while also saying that stargate is under-utilized which means that Protoss needs better ships. How is that not a good argument? Why can't the Carrier play that role after a workover? Doesn't make any sense.
On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?
Yeah, I don't even play terran and I really want them to be in because they're cool and the only addition to terran that looks really fun.
On July 10 2012 17:45 lunchrush wrote: Honestly, I don't really see why they can't just give the carrier the 22 range or something similarly ridiculous and call it a wrap. They could do so much with that unit that they're just... not. Now THAT's a graviton catapult =P
I think its obvious that Browder just doesn't want BW units.
He seems to have double standards for BW units and SC2 units.
What's weird these "new" units are almost similar to a few BW units. IDK hots is going to be on hot crazy mess.
On July 10 2012 18:32 FrogOfWar wrote: One other thing ... if HOTS comes a month after the Beta and the Beta comes shortly after patch 1.5 ... when does patch 1.5 come?
Am i the only thinking that the terran changes are quite boring? And i really like the new nydus thing, but in the end i think they will be superoverpowered or as bad as reapers :D
They are encouraging terran to mech vs protoss, yet taking the carrier out... Carriers are really good against mech and also good against zerg. I guess its too late to include it now but carriers are becoming more common late game pvz.
Uh. You guys know that you basically build 4 tempests and the zerg has literally around 30s to engage you or they have no broodlords left, right? Put the things 10 range behind your army protected by a handful of stalkers and just keep pressuring forward every once in a while to keep their corruptors occupied.
All this SHIT 22 RANGE AWFUL UNIT seems to be sourced from the idea that you just 1a the damn things. Build 4 of them, put them in a control group (yes, I know, this is hard to do) and target fire one broodlord every 6s. Same thing with PvP. Build 2 of them, position them over your main, protect with a few stalkers and two shot their colossi. Since they're relatively low DPS, they don't utterly gut every unit in the army but they do fuck colossi.
Carriers are just 1a units by comparison. Let them go.
As an argument for the carrier. If we start thinking about the new units for pvt Lets say terran goes for a mech focused army. That is battle hellions, war hounds some thors/siege tanks maybe add some widow mines if they have a good use. What units would a protoss want to get against this?
The mech army while incredibly good at dealing with a protoss ground army is weak against air the only thing from the factory that shoots up is the thor which while it can be good against clumped up void rays is terrible against carriers. The tempest could slowly pick off units but they are not going to win the fight for the protoss on their own, carriers as a large high dps air unit is an extremely good choice against a mech terran its just that they usually go bio.
The terran then has to try and get marines/Vikings (Battlecruisers?) plus upgrades where before they were factory focused.
It adds to the choice and variety in games which seems to be what they want? or in other words what reason is there for removing it?
On July 10 2012 17:45 lunchrush wrote: Honestly, I don't really see why they can't just give the carrier the 22 range or something similarly ridiculous and call it a wrap. They could do so much with that unit that they're just... not. Now THAT's a graviton catapult =P
Because being able to do 30+ DPS from 22 range would be utterly retarded? Nevermind the zerg deathball, the protoss deathball would be carrier with some more carriers sitting over East Asia and a sprinkling of colossi/sentries for comedy value.
No man. The carrier is dead. Carrier micro was never much in BW and it definitely isn't much in the much faster paced SC2.
As an argument for the carrier. If we start thinking about the new units for pvt Lets say terran goes for a mech focused army. That is battle hellions, war hounds some thors/siege tanks maybe add some widow mines if they have a good use. What units would a protoss want to get against this?
The mech army while incredibly good at dealing with a protoss ground army is weak against air the only thing from the factory that shoots up is the thor which while it can be good against clumped up void rays is terrible against carriers. The tempest could slowly pick off units but they are not going to win the fight for the protoss on their own, carriers as a large high dps air unit is an extremely good choice against a mech terran its just that they usually go bio.
The terran then has to try and get marines/Vikings (Battlecruisers?) plus upgrades where before they were factory focused.
It adds to the choice and variety in games which seems to be what they want? or in other words what reason is there for removing it?
The protoss gets... uh.. immortals? And tempests for picking off seige tanks at range? Thors turn a carrier ball into a giant mineral sink. There is no reason for the carrier and it amazes me that TeamLiquid, full of normally sane people are desperately trying to lobby Blizzard to keep a unit none of them ever build. The only justification people seem to have is the idea that they can somehow make carriers horrendously OP in some way and then build them.
On July 10 2012 18:32 FrogOfWar wrote: One other thing ... if HOTS comes a month after the Beta and the Beta comes shortly after patch 1.5 ... when does patch 1.5 come?
It's after the beta ends, not a month after the beta.
- Stargate is underutilized and they want to give more incentive to use it.
Carrier
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
Mass carrier is very boring (as it is basically just a-move). And if you talk about implementing carriers in other unit compositions protoss just rarely has a gap in the unit roles that only can be filled with the carrier.
The point is: why throw away a stargate unit that everyone already loves, when more stargate units is exactly what you're asking for? "Cool and iconic" units are not exactly easy to come up with, why not just adjust it's functionality instead of just throwing it away?
On July 10 2012 12:02 Ketara wrote: You want a good argument for the Carrier?
Make it work like you want Tempest to work. Give the Interceptors an upgrade that sends them out at 22 range.
There. Carrier is what you want Tempest to be, but it's cool while the Tempest is dumb.
I assume the 22 range suggestion is a joke ... but aside from that, you're right. I don't understand how Browder can say that while also saying that stargate is under-utilized which means that Protoss needs better ships. How is that not a good argument? Why can't the Carrier play that role after a workover? Doesn't make any sense.
Its easy to do really. Call an upgrade for the carrier called "fighter-bomber" and have the 4 or 8 interceptors turn into 2 or 4 'bombers' that have range 22 but take a while to get to and from the target. I mean its really just a small graphic change and at least carriers are still cool instead of the weird Descent II wannabe garbage looking crap the Tempest is.
Ideally Browder will get a 'promotion' and go upgrade Call of Duty 10: Modern Combat on Mars with Aliens and let David Kim or whoever is still left from old old Blizzard to actually work on the game.
On July 10 2012 18:37 Evangelist wrote: Uh. You guys know that you basically build 4 tempests and the zerg has literally around 30s to engage you or they have no broodlords left, right? Put the things 10 range behind your army protected by a handful of stalkers and just keep pressuring forward every once in a while to keep their corruptors occupied.
All this SHIT 22 RANGE AWFUL UNIT seems to be sourced from the idea that you just 1a the damn things. Build 4 of them, put them in a control group (yes, I know, this is hard to do) and target fire one broodlord every 6s. Same thing with PvP. Build 2 of them, position them over your main, protect with a few stalkers and two shot their colossi. Since they're relatively low DPS, they don't utterly gut every unit in the army but they do fuck colossi.
Carriers are just 1a units by comparison. Let them go.
Ahm, no.. You don't get it.
People dislike the concept of the Tempst and it's kinda "common" knowledge that 22 Range would be hilariously overpowered...
On July 10 2012 12:02 Ketara wrote: You want a good argument for the Carrier?
Make it work like you want Tempest to work. Give the Interceptors an upgrade that sends them out at 22 range.
There. Carrier is what you want Tempest to be, but it's cool while the Tempest is dumb.
I assume the 22 range suggestion is a joke ... but aside from that, you're right. I don't understand how Browder can say that while also saying that stargate is under-utilized which means that Protoss needs better ships. How is that not a good argument? Why can't the Carrier play that role after a workover? Doesn't make any sense.
Its easy to do really. Call an upgrade for the carrier called "fighter-bomber" and have the 4 or 8 interceptors turn into 2 or 4 'bombers' that have range 22 but take a while to get to and from the target. I mean its really just a small graphic change and at least carriers are still cool instead of the weird Descent II wannabe garbage looking crap the Tempest is.
Ideally Browder will get a 'promotion' and go upgrade Call of Duty 10: Modern Combat on Mars with Aliens and let David Kim or whoever is still left from old old Blizzard to actually work on the game.
This is a pretty good idea, I had a similar one, where Carriers could be upgraded to burn 1 Interceptor for 1 Tempest attack. 22 range, 25 minerals, similar damage. The animation could just be an interceptor with some blue protoss particle effects, and then it explodes and auto rebuilds that interceptor. That would give it both roles, because the current Carrier is pretty useless and the Tempest is boring. Together though, it might be more interesting.
On July 10 2012 18:37 Evangelist wrote: Uh. You guys know that you basically build 4 tempests and the zerg has literally around 30s to engage you or they have no broodlords left, right? Put the things 10 range behind your army protected by a handful of stalkers and just keep pressuring forward every once in a while to keep their corruptors occupied.
All this SHIT 22 RANGE AWFUL UNIT seems to be sourced from the idea that you just 1a the damn things. Build 4 of them, put them in a control group (yes, I know, this is hard to do) and target fire one broodlord every 6s. Same thing with PvP. Build 2 of them, position them over your main, protect with a few stalkers and two shot their colossi. Since they're relatively low DPS, they don't utterly gut every unit in the army but they do fuck colossi.
Carriers are just 1a units by comparison. Let them go.
this unit concept sounds just so absolutely stupid i cant think the devs are considering it.
i honestly believe the reason sc2 was so successful is because IT IS so similar to BW
besides the clumping and MBS and max unit selection, Sc2 is very similar to BW in my opinion. Unit powers are pretty similar some extreme differences are storm is weaker so bio is stronger in TvP and things like that
but in many ways sc2 is very similar to BW in matchup relationships such as like in PvZ the protoss tries to be defensive with cannons early and in PvP theres lots of early game fighting with lack of expanding and in TvT its tanklines vs tanklines (like in BW)
and the endgame units are very similar comparing bw to sc2 (heck, most of the units are the same thing) except tosses scout is replaced voidrays valk/wraith replaced with banshee/viking etc but the units that are replacing arent too far behind in concept compared to BTW
hots seems to be introducing things that are extremely stupid in concept compared to BW
like that oracle. you serious. that stupid harassment ability does not belong in bw (sc2) What the hell is with this tempest. This unit does not belong in bw (sc2) it belongs in C&C or something
and what the hell is that mothership cores defensive ability? the hell? sorry but this is starcraft. PvP should not be nexus first vs nexus first +proxy nexus which this stupid thing could turn it into. nexus does not need ultra defense like that, thats what cannons are for
more and more as sc2 evolves with improved play and better maps, its looking more and more as epic as BW and many units having the same concept/powers
but like i said above the oracle and tempest are units that are just... extremely stupid and nothing like that seems like it should exist in this game to have it keep the bw feel
I honestly believe if HOTS stays on the same tracks, Wings of Liberty will probably remain as the favorite tournament version because even though tons of people say WoL is extremely different than BW, i feel a big reason for WoL's success is because it is so NOT-DIFFERENT from BW and many people are too blinded to really see it.
HOTS problems will probably be fixed in its beta and it will probably go down a different track and be a success
i think the further away you take sc2 from BW, the worse it will get. hots currently seems to be going down this path. I honestly believe the current Sc2 is very similar to BW and that similarity i believe is a big reason it was so successful. I think people will see this in the beta and blizzard will most likely make things right by changing EVERYTHING
Looking interesting, and not really in a bad way. Little unsure of the Tempest and I really want Spider Mines to stay in, but I'll have to wait to actually play the beta before I start talking about whether something is amazing or just plain stupid.
On July 10 2012 19:28 Natespank wrote: Imagine this:
Before HotS is released, Blizzard hires pro coaches to train their design team up to grandmaster level across the board. Then they go back to design.
Actually how GM players like the game is rather unimportant. They are only 200 per continent. In order for the scene to be large (and blizzards sales to be large) two things are neccesary. Pro level play has to look interessting to spectate. Bronze to Diamond has to be interessting to play.
On July 10 2012 19:26 ajkayken wrote: besides the clumping and MBS and max unit selection, Sc2 is very similar to BW in my opinion. Unit powers are pretty similar some extreme differences are storm is weaker so bio is stronger in TvP and things like that
SC2 isnt like BW and you totally forgot to mention the "macro-economics" and production boosts which the races got in SC2. They make SC2 MUCH FASTER and a lot different in the mid-end-game. Warp Gate alone totally changes any Protoss matchup.
On July 10 2012 19:44 Sapphire.lux wrote: I do not understand DB.
TvT stale? Where? Bronze?
Protoss can not attack? again, maybe in bronze if you can't FF bunkers.
I'm sad for Terran and the future of mech...1a mechanical marauders
Its his opinion and I guess he only likes "action action action" ... which reminds me of him trying to achieve something like the "bloodiest movie ever" (Hot Shots 2) ... which is totally ridiculous. Thats also why he doesnt see any reason for keeping the Carrier ... either that or he doesnt look for one.
HotS changes looking great, especially Terran with the widow mine, which looks like it'll be the strongest race in HotS now, but I'll stick with the swarm and swarm hosts xD
have to say, even though everything is variable it sounds like Terran gets units to help them mech better and zerg gets stuff to just make them super strong... all I keep thinking is the stephano roach build but with hydra's the DPS will be insane vs protoss and mix that with drops :/
I also really hate the idea of a creep nydus... creep is one of the hardest things to deal with if your playing a good Z becasue you cannot really attack while on it for long, and being able to just make a nydus that can make up for you sucking kinda sounds horrible LOL...
I like the sound of temphest but if it does such little dmg how is it suppose to help P deal with insane muta balls ? Sounds like it would only be of use late game vs broods and a replacment to the all-in-pray archon toilet... which I guess is an improvment..
have to say though, sounds like Z's one weak area and one area that gives T and P windows has been removed... and Z's late game is insane... but I guess we gotta see how it panns out... I guess its fair for Z to start out broken given that T was in WoL
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
Ye, according to Mr.B that is a weakness, eventhough stalkers are faster than marines/marauders and can kite them to death, sentries can make toss escape any situation, and zealots are just plain strong.
If only I could have zealots sentry and stalkers instead of marines/marauders early game...
You fly around the map hugging cliffs, harassing bases, attacking units that will keep the interceptors out and carriers away from danger, and focus firing constantly.
Ah awesome game constant pressuring, fighting for positions, harassing. Stopped playing Starcraft 2 due to "terrible damage/ball syndrom" but now I even might install Broodwar again, but man will I suck hard
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
Ye, according to Mr.B that is a weakness, eventhough stalkers are faster than marines/marauders and can kite them to death, sentries can make toss escape any situation, and zealots are just plain strong.
If only I could have zealots sentry and stalkers instead of marines/marauders early game...
not sure what game you've been playing, but unless you do an all in, MM kills basically all gateway units... and you miss one or two FF and T pressure can kill you pretty easily unless you have robo units...
1) They are actually amazing in split map PvZ 2) It COULD be a much, much more interesting unit with bw mechanics and micro added in, rather than just having a flying colosuss that can also shoot up.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
Ye, according to Mr.B that is a weakness, eventhough stalkers are faster than marines/marauders and can kite them to death, sentries can make toss escape any situation, and zealots are just plain strong.
If only I could have zealots sentry and stalkers instead of marines/marauders early game...
not sure what game you've been playing, but unless you do an all in, MM kills basically all gateway units... and you miss one or two FF and T pressure can kill you pretty easily unless you have robo units...
Thats after Stim (and Concussive + Shield). When T and P go balls to the wall early agression P is strong..
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
Ye, according to Mr.B that is a weakness, eventhough stalkers are faster than marines/marauders and can kite them to death, sentries can make toss escape any situation, and zealots are just plain strong.
If only I could have zealots sentry and stalkers instead of marines/marauders early game...
not sure what game you've been playing, but unless you do an all in, MM kills basically all gateway units... and you miss one or two FF and T pressure can kill you pretty easily unless you have robo units...
Thats after Stim (and Concussive + Shield). When T and P go balls to the wall early agression P is strong..
really just concussion... with that you can kite everything P has early game stopping any real presure... stim just allows you to out right kill it
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
Ye, according to Mr.B that is a weakness, eventhough stalkers are faster than marines/marauders and can kite them to death, sentries can make toss escape any situation, and zealots are just plain strong.
If only I could have zealots sentry and stalkers instead of marines/marauders early game...
not sure what game you've been playing, but unless you do an all in, MM kills basically all gateway units... and you miss one or two FF and T pressure can kill you pretty easily unless you have robo units...
Thats after Stim (and Concussive + Shield). When T and P go balls to the wall early agression P is strong..
really just concussion... with that you can kite everything P has early game stopping any real presure... stim just allows you to out right kill it
Forcefields would like a word with you. Seriously, gateway units aren't THAT bad, which is why high level terrans only ever pressure when they get medivacs these days rather than just going for it the instant stim finishes.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
Ye, according to Mr.B that is a weakness, eventhough stalkers are faster than marines/marauders and can kite them to death, sentries can make toss escape any situation, and zealots are just plain strong.
If only I could have zealots sentry and stalkers instead of marines/marauders early game...
not sure what game you've been playing, but unless you do an all in, MM kills basically all gateway units... and you miss one or two FF and T pressure can kill you pretty easily unless you have robo units...
Thats after Stim (and Concussive + Shield). When T and P go balls to the wall early agression P is strong..
really just concussion... with that you can kite everything P has early game stopping any real presure... stim just allows you to out right kill it
Forcefields would like a word with you. Seriously, gateway units aren't THAT bad, which is why high level terrans only ever pressure when they get medivacs these days rather than just going for it the instant stim finishes.
yeah I'm aware of FF but being aggressive with it unless your going all in super agro isn't really going to work out well... you'll get like a bunker and a few marines?
unless you have a boat load of sentries you'll then just loose everything as concussion and stim stops you from escaping
There's no reason to cut the carrier for being too weak when you're unwilling to look at what situatios lead to p going carriersw back in BW, and what made carriers good
On July 10 2012 20:29 Cybren wrote: There's no reason to cut the carrier for being too weak when you're unwilling to look at what situatios lead to p going carriersw back in BW, and what made carriers good
yeah I've been wondering if you gave carriers more range, would they be actually good vs Z's late game... as they can work atm but only if you hide them and then.. surprise carriers!
It's funny how they have had to revamp the ENTIRE UI because they FINALLY realized it's 1 giant dump of failure, how could they honestly go so wrong? And now they are finally seeing it.
I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game?
Its his opinion and I guess he only likes "action action action" ... which reminds me of him trying to achieve something like the "bloodiest movie ever" (Hot Shots 2) ... which is totally ridiculous. Thats also why he doesnt see any reason for keeping the Carrier ... either that or he doesnt look for one.
I used to hate the BW elitism when sc2 came out but the more i read about their design "solutions" and ideas the less faith i have in SC2.
DB waits for good arguments to keep the Carrier, while in the entire lifespam of WOL they have done NOTHING to improve this unit. They've made the shitiest interpretation of the unit, with no micro potential, terran mech be complete garbage and thus have no need for carriers to break it...
If they break TvT with the mechanical marauder, and make mech TvP be mechanical firebats + mech marauders, it will be the final nail in the coffin for me.
I can't help but laugh at this interview. It's funny how many people are realizing only now how incompetent the development team is. People have pointed out every single design flaw since playable alpha, yet blizzard refused to fix the game. Somehow people still had hope: "let's wait for beta", "that's not even retail version yet", "give the game a year", "wait for HotS, it's gonna change things for the better".
It's kinda like with the apocalypse prophecies of Jehova's Witnesses. ;p
Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
On July 10 2012 20:54 Toadvine wrote: I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game?
These kind of comments just sound thought-out, but actually make no sense.
You're criticizing the choice to allow zerg to win the game when they're ahead in HotS with the current situation in WoL. That makes no sense. There will be a completely different notion of balance in HotS which no one can say anything about right now. I agree that currently, it feels like Zerg is just defending going to Hive tech all the time and I think it is conceptually a good idea to give Zerg a unit that can actually break walls.
Why are you using the fact that you don't like ZvZ and PvP in an argument concerning TvT? Adding a unit that is relevant in TvT is strictly a good thing, so how can you possibly criticize that? Your argument doesn't even make any sense.
I belive that HotS is going to imporve the game. People are rediculously negative all the time. Those guys making this game know what they are doing better than anyone here. Also, who are you even kidding if you say you're not going to buy HotS. If you're on these forums, you're way too interested not to buy it.
On July 10 2012 21:09 Grumbels wrote: Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
Well, maybe because warpate is...lets say questionable mechanic in 1st place :p
Dustin Browder
It's not about how many units we have, it's about the quality.
That part made me giggle a little bit, so much quality in corruptor n collosus :d
Oh well, this is going be quite hilarious i think, beta is going be crazy fun though, think i actually might play the beta more than the actual game with the imbalance there is going to be xD
On July 10 2012 21:09 Grumbels wrote: Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
Well, maybe because warpate is...lets say questionable mechanic in 1st place :p
Warpgate is an essential part of the protoss design. This will not be changed, neither in HOTS or Legacy of the Void. I do not see what you do not like about the machanic. Protoss is very immobile, warpgate tech gives the option to attack on different places.
Oh well, this is going be quite hilarious i think, beta is going be crazy fun though, think i actually might play the beta more than the actual game with the imbalance there is going to be xD
Bio really is the standard in TvP. There are certain openings with factory units like the 1-1-1 or openings with helions. But in general mech is not used and biomech is only useful for a short amount of time, not when the protoss has all his tech available.
Oh well, this is going be quite hilarious i think, beta is going be crazy fun though, think i actually might play the beta more than the actual game with the imbalance there is going to be xD
Bio really is the standard in TvP. There are certain openings with factory units like the 1-1-1 or openings with helions. But in general mech is not used and biomech is only useful for a short amount of time, not when the protoss has all his tech available.
So you have never seen Marineking or SuperNova use marine tank timings? Or Byun do it vs Genius like last week? MMM + Seige is like the standard build used in all macro match ups as of late including vs P
On July 10 2012 21:09 Grumbels wrote: Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
do you even read?
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
what part of this talks about gateway units being weak? just "has to be passive" is ridiculous because there is a ton of protoss aggression/all in's they can do early game.....
On July 10 2012 20:54 Toadvine wrote: I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game?
These kind of comments just sound thought-out, but actually make no sense.
You're criticizing the choice to allow zerg to win the game when they're ahead in HotS with the current situation in WoL. That makes no sense. There will be a completely different notion of balance in HotS which no one can say anything about right now. I agree that currently, it feels like Zerg is just defending going to Hive tech all the time and I think it is conceptually a good idea to give Zerg a unit that can actually break walls.
Why are you using the fact that you don't like ZvZ and PvP in an argument concerning TvT? Adding a unit that is relevant in TvT is strictly a good thing, so how can you possibly criticize that? Your argument doesn't even make any sense.
I belive that HotS is going to imporve the game. People are rediculously negative all the time. Those guys making this game know what they are doing better than anyone here. Also, who are you even kidding if you say you're not going to buy HotS. If you're on these forums, you're way too interested not to buy it.
For the record, I'm actually not planning to buy it right now. The Beta might change my mind, but thus far, literally everything Dustin Browder says in these interviews paints him as incompetent and clueless in my eyes. It's hard for me to believe that he might actually improve SC2 with his level of understanding.
And I'm not actually criticizing the new units in the post you quoted, I'm criticizing the retarded crap Dustin says in this interview. If you look at how the game is right now, improving Zerg midgame aggressive capabilities seems like an absolutely awful idea. I'd like to believe it will coincide with scaling back the Zerg economy, so that they can function more like the other races, as opposed to building 80 drones before any units at all. But what I think will happen, as evidenced by the history of WoL patching, is that the new stuff just gets put in without altering the base Zerg mechanics, and then they'll spend the first 6 months after HotS release nerfing Zerg, just like they had to do with Terran. Nothing about what they say in interviews makes me think they've learned anything from that experience.
So yeah, adding new units is nice. But saying TvT is stale, when it's one of the most dynamic matchups in SC2, is just retarded, period. Also, it appears that one of the Warhound's purposes is to be able to a-move over siege lines, so they're possibly going to screw the matchup over with this nonsense, just like they screwed up TvZ with the Queen buff.
Oh well, this is going be quite hilarious i think, beta is going be crazy fun though, think i actually might play the beta more than the actual game with the imbalance there is going to be xD
Bio really is the standard in TvP. There are certain openings with factory units like the 1-1-1 or openings with helions. But in general mech is not used and biomech is only useful for a short amount of time, not when the protoss has all his tech available.
So you have never seen Marineking or SuperNova use marine tank timings? Or Byun do it vs Genius like last week? MMM + Seige is like the standard build used in all macro match ups as of late including vs P
Byun vs Genius? You mean game 2 where he lost a 33 (ingame) minute game because he didn't pay attention for 1 second?
edit: my point being having some tanks is good, but everything above is so unforgiving that it is not a viable strategy to play.
Oh well, this is going be quite hilarious i think, beta is going be crazy fun though, think i actually might play the beta more than the actual game with the imbalance there is going to be xD
Bio really is the standard in TvP. There are certain openings with factory units like the 1-1-1 or openings with helions. But in general mech is not used and biomech is only useful for a short amount of time, not when the protoss has all his tech available.
So you have never seen Marineking or SuperNova use marine tank timings? Or Byun do it vs Genius like last week? MMM + Seige is like the standard build used in all macro match ups as of late including vs P
Byun vs Genius? You mean game 2 where he lost a 33 (ingame) minute game because he didn't pay attention for 1 second?
Yep, also that he got himself into a corner and thought he might get run by so he unseiged and ran back. But thats not the point, the point is Factory play is used vsP whether its to all in with 1-1-1 or a marine seige opening/timing or threw MMM+Seige play, it is used, to say it isn't is quite unusual.
On July 10 2012 21:09 Grumbels wrote: Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
Well, maybe because warpate is...lets say questionable mechanic in 1st place :p
Warpgate is an essential part of the protoss design. This will not be changed, neither in HOTS or Legacy of the Void. I do not see what you do not like about the machanic. Protoss is very immobile, warpgate tech gives the option to attack on different places.
Protoss is immobile because of the warp gate, not the contrary. You can't make protoss base units too strong because it would make early timings exponentially stronger and as a side effect, you have to make colossus stronger to support a late game army.
On July 10 2012 21:09 Grumbels wrote: Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
Well, maybe because warpate is...lets say questionable mechanic in 1st place :p
Warpgate is an essential part of the protoss design. This will not be changed, neither in HOTS or Legacy of the Void. I do not see what you do not like about the machanic. Protoss is very immobile, warpgate tech gives the option to attack on different places.
I know its essential part of the protoss design.I know its not gonna be changed. Doesnt mean I have to like it cuz its fancy teleport stuff, it gives to many advantages and has no flaws? Especialy lategame. Negates defenders advantage, 4gate, 8gate timings, ppl complain about gateway units beeing 2 weak, wg is the reason and it supports deathball more than anything else cuz u reinforce without travel time...theres a lot of things that can be disliked about warpgate.
Oh well, this is going be quite hilarious i think, beta is going be crazy fun though, think i actually might play the beta more than the actual game with the imbalance there is going to be xD
Bio really is the standard in TvP. There are certain openings with factory units like the 1-1-1 or openings with helions. But in general mech is not used and biomech is only useful for a short amount of time, not when the protoss has all his tech available.
So you have never seen Marineking or SuperNova use marine tank timings? Or Byun do it vs Genius like last week? MMM + Seige is like the standard build used in all macro match ups as of late including vs P
Byun vs Genius? You mean game 2 where he lost a 33 (ingame) minute game because he didn't pay attention for 1 second?
Yep, also that he got himself into a corner and thought he might get run by so he unseiged and ran back. But thats not the point, the point is Factory play is used vsP whether its to all in with 1-1-1 or a marine seige opening/timing or threw MMM+Seige play, it is used, to say it isn't is quite unusual.
Well, he pressure the fourth and I think he even managed to take it down, abusing the ramp leading to the fourth from the protoss base with the range of his tanks.
Anyways. Yes, you are right, factories are seen vs protoss. But you cannot really call this going mech. They just splash in some tanks to strengthen their army without sacrificing too much mobility. Their main focus still remains the bio.
'TvT matches can get a little stale.' (From the interview)
He's right. He's not saying it happens every game. He's not denying TvT in general is in a bad place. He's only saying TvT does sometimes get stale. I agree with him.
I don't know why you would base your opinion of HotS on an interview from a single person. You realise he's not the only one developing this game right? In fact, neither you nor anyone here has any clue of how competent their development team is. You can interpret and say whatever you like, but it's based on absolutely nothing.
'TvT matches can get a little stale.' (From the interview)
He's right. He's not saying it happens every game. He's not denying TvT in general is in a bad place. He's only saying TvT does sometimes get stale. I agree with him.
I don't know why you would base your opinion of HotS on an interview from a single person. You realise he's not the only one developing this game right? In fact, neither you nor anyone here has any clue of how competent their development team is. You can interpret and say whatever you like, but it's based on absolutely nothing.
Let's just say a developer that throws in ideas like the Tempest will have some troubles to sound credible for a long time after .
On July 10 2012 21:09 Grumbels wrote: Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
Well, maybe because warpate is...lets say questionable mechanic in 1st place :p
Warpgate is an essential part of the protoss design. This will not be changed, neither in HOTS or Legacy of the Void. I do not see what you do not like about the machanic. Protoss is very immobile, warpgate tech gives the option to attack on different places.
I know its essential part of the protoss design.I know its not gonna be changed. Doesnt mean I have to like it cuz its fancy teleport stuff, it gives to many advantages and has no flaws? Especialy lategame. Negates defenders advantage, 4gate, 8gate timings, ppl complain about gateway units beeing 2 weak, wg is the reason and it supports deathball more than anything else cuz u reinforce without travel time...theres a lot of things that can be disliked about warpgate.
edit: also what poster above says
they should add a limit cap on pylon per warp in, so they can't just invest 100 minerals and proceed to warp in their entire army and negates most defender advantage.
And they should buff gateway units and nerf colossus, or buff colossus's dmg but give them a drawback (mobility, siege time, vulerable/weak whatever)
On July 10 2012 20:54 Toadvine wrote: I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game?
Truerer words were never spoken.
I am starting to lose faith in Blizzard. I dont know why, but I get a feeling that Dustin Browder is George W. Bush of Game Design.
I really hate the idea of a unit that can only attack buildings, such as the new nydus wurm. It was terrible in War3 (steam tank) as it was incredibly depressing to play against. I hope they reconsider.
On July 10 2012 21:09 Grumbels wrote: Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
do you even read?
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
what part of this talks about gateway units being weak? just "has to be passive" is ridiculous because there is a ton of protoss aggression/all in's they can do early game.....
Fine, if you want to be ridiculous and debate semantics. I'll simplify it for you: because of warpgate and the lack of mobility for gateway units, almost every early game attack is all-in, you can't simply pressure or gain map control. With macro games being quite popular, there is a larger number of games where protoss is forced to be passive.
In almost every standard game I watch, zergs have advantage in supply and workers during the mid game. It doesn't make sense to give them a way to make that advantage into an almost guaranteed win
On July 10 2012 21:09 Grumbels wrote: Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
Well, maybe because warpate is...lets say questionable mechanic in 1st place :p
Warpgate is an essential part of the protoss design. This will not be changed, neither in HOTS or Legacy of the Void. I do not see what you do not like about the machanic. Protoss is very immobile, warpgate tech gives the option to attack on different places.
I don't mind them attacking on different places, but this isn't whats happening. Protoss is using it to attack one places over and over till someone falls (all the 2base all-in builds).
Give pylon a limit on warp in (lets say 10/min). This would allow multi-point harasses and defending drops, but it would cripple all these boring 2 base all-in protoss are pulling almost more than 50% of their games
'TvT matches can get a little stale.' (From the interview)
He's right. He's not saying it happens every game. He's not denying TvT in general is in a bad place. He's only saying TvT does sometimes get stale. I agree with him.
I don't know why you would base your opinion of HotS on an interview from a single person. You realise he's not the only one developing this game right? In fact, neither you nor anyone here has any clue of how competent their development team is. You can interpret and say whatever you like, but it's based on absolutely nothing.
You're absolutely right man, an interview by the lead designer of a game, wherein he explains his rationale about the stuff they're changing in an expansion, is absolutely nothing. Can't base opinions on anything he says. I should just buy the game, and then listen to people like you tell me to wait for LotV before judging it.
Seriously, what can I base my opinion on, in your view?
And for the TvT thing, it gets "stale" a lot less than basically every other matchup in the game, so why single it out? It's like he said he thought it was too easy to expand in PvP.
Seriously, what can I base my opinion on, in your view?
At this point, nothing. That's my point. No one knows how it will work out, so any opinion on balance is just arbitrary. There's no beta yet, and even beta will not mean that much. You can have opinion about the new units in design technical perspective, but it's way too early to say anything about balance. He's obviously singling out TvT because that's where his new unit is relevant.
I'm glad I'm not as negative as so many people here. I'll apparently get to enjoy HotS much more.
Oh well, this is going be quite hilarious i think, beta is going be crazy fun though, think i actually might play the beta more than the actual game with the imbalance there is going to be xD
Bio really is the standard in TvP. There are certain openings with factory units like the 1-1-1 or openings with helions. But in general mech is not used and biomech is only useful for a short amount of time, not when the protoss has all his tech available.
So you have never seen Marineking or SuperNova use marine tank timings? Or Byun do it vs Genius like last week? MMM + Seige is like the standard build used in all macro match ups as of late including vs P
The key word is timing. I said it is only useful for a short amount of time. How often do you see terrans fighting a 200 porotss army with collosy, templars, archons, chargelots and immortals using mech. Maybe it happend once or twice, but it is definitly rare.
On July 10 2012 21:09 Grumbels wrote: Poor Dustin Browder. On one hand a majority of this forum agrees that warpgate tech caused gateway units being weak, then when Browder says that gateway units are weak he's attacked for being clueless.
Well, maybe because warpate is...lets say questionable mechanic in 1st place :p
Warpgate is an essential part of the protoss design. This will not be changed, neither in HOTS or Legacy of the Void. I do not see what you do not like about the machanic. Protoss is very immobile, warpgate tech gives the option to attack on different places.
I don't mind them attacking on different places, but this isn't whats happening. Protoss is using it to attack one places over and over till someone falls (all the 2base all-in builds).
Give pylon a limit on warp in (lets say 10/min). This would allow multi-point harasses and defending drops, but it would cripple all these boring 2 base all-in protoss are pulling almost more than 50% of their games
If often see protoss warping in zealots to kill zerg hatcheries from distand pylons, also warp prism harrass is based on warpgate technology. The thing about a limit on warp in is that it won't prevent the protoss from just building a second pylon right beside the first one. Usually the protoss makes multiple proxy pylons anyway, when he does a two base all-inn.
On July 10 2012 20:54 Toadvine wrote: I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game?
Well it seems easy for us here but designing a unit is a long process. They watched TvT of a couple months ago where everyone would go mech and no one would move because his siege line was right in front of you. If we are talking about past TvT, their statement is correct. So they go, "we should make a unit that is going to fix this problem". TThey come up with an idea, they tweak it and try to make in work. In the meanwhile players changed their playstyle and this problem is no longer relevant so what should they do ? Scrap it and start over ? HotS would never be released.
As for zerg not being able to convert advantage into a win, some say the zerg needs his one base advantage to say on equal footing, if that is true then is it really an advantage ?
I don't really care for the rationale behind their change, as long as their unit aren't completly boring or useless. When I look at the units they decided to add, I picture to myself what they do and how they will affect the current playstyle. In the end, if they do something good, for the wrong reasons, but it still ends up working and bring new ways to play the game to SC2, should we really care about the why ? I understand the why is what's keeping them from doing completely retarded stuff, but for now, they didn't do completely retarded stuff. The only obsolete unit they have presented is the Warhound in my opinion, and lots of people seem to agree that this unit has no place in the game.
EDIT : Yeah the warhound part seems a little confusing, I just wanted to say with this example that I understand the validity of your point and even agree with it to a small extent.
Not so sure stargate changes will achieve what they hope to achieve. I always thought nobody goes stargate because it's such a big investment that Zerg/Terran can just go and kill you and pheonix/void just isn't going to hold vs ling roach or marine marauder. Oracle just seems like an extension of the pheonix; a big investment that you use to harass with, but does sweet fuck all when your opponent just decided to A move to your base...
Oh well, this is going be quite hilarious i think, beta is going be crazy fun though, think i actually might play the beta more than the actual game with the imbalance there is going to be xD
Bio really is the standard in TvP. There are certain openings with factory units like the 1-1-1 or openings with helions. But in general mech is not used and biomech is only useful for a short amount of time, not when the protoss has all his tech available.
So you have never seen Marineking or SuperNova use marine tank timings? Or Byun do it vs Genius like last week? MMM + Seige is like the standard build used in all macro match ups as of late including vs P
The key word is timing. I said it is only useful for a short amount of time. How often do you see terrans fighting a 200 porotss army with collosy, templars, archons, chargelots and immortals using mech. Maybe it happend once or twice, but it is definitly rare.
Yes i agree, but he didn't say mech he said factory xD He is saying it (Well im reading it this way) in the way factories are not even made (minus to make starport) in TvP which is very wrong. I agree it needs addressing mech, but to say it like that is silly xD
'TvT matches can get a little stale.' (From the interview)
He's right. He's not saying it happens every game. He's not denying TvT in general is in a bad place. He's only saying TvT does sometimes get stale. I agree with him.
I don't know why you would base your opinion of HotS on an interview from a single person. You realise he's not the only one developing this game right? In fact, neither you nor anyone here has any clue of how competent their development team is. You can interpret and say whatever you like, but it's based on absolutely nothing.
You're absolutely right man, an interview by the lead designer of a game, wherein he explains his rationale about the stuff they're changing in an expansion, is absolutely nothing. Can't base opinions on anything he says. I should just buy the game, and then listen to people like you tell me to wait for LotV before judging it.
Seriously, what can I base my opinion on, in your view?
And for the TvT thing, it gets "stale" a lot less than basically every other matchup in the game, so why single it out? It's like he said he thought it was too easy to expand in PvP.
To be fair, they are adding the mothership core to change PvP too. iirc, there was an interview from a guy working for giantbomb or some other gaming site. I searched for it but couldnt find it. They said PvP sucks so they want to make it better as well. The mothership core will add easier defense for an expansion, I guess. Hopefully it will open up more options for PvP as a whole.
As for ZvZ, heres an interview about it. I didnt read the whole thing, but from the excerpt IdrA, who knows more about it than you and me combined probably, thinks that ZvZ is too dynamic. But he says that once people get better at it, it will be ok. Nothing needs to be patched for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350102 I think ZvZ midgame will probably be all over the place anyways in HotS. If I had to guess though, lategame ZvZ will probably be Infestor / Viper micro wars with Ultras / Hydra.
Fuck widow mines already, it's either too good or too shit for its cost. It's too easy to neutralize with micro too, just bring back spidermines in some form even if it means nerfing its damage and splash.
On July 10 2012 22:24 Jimmy Raynor wrote: In almost every standard game I watch, zergs have advantage in supply and workers during the mid game. It doesn't make sense to give them a way to make that advantage into an almost guaranteed win
Supplycount (especially thanks to ridiculous 2 food roaches which just was a cop out instead of real balancing) does not matter. Cost effectivnes of the units does (this is were the roach was way to good and therefore had to become a 2 supply unit with BIG hardcounters that just maul it (Immortal/Marauder)... Funny looking supplycounts whiteout any meaning are the result).
One of the essential problems with SC2 is the instant remaxing/reinforcing Z/P can do:
Warpgates and spawn Larva (or the amount of Larva a Hatch can save) are a problem because (near) instant remaxing is more important than actually having a bigger army at the beginning of an engagement.
Simplification: 40 Probes / 160 Army vs 70 Probes / 130 Army. 160 Army will win the initial battle but the superior economy of 70 probes will allow way more reinforcements and therefore the bigger army will slowly shrink until the initial armyadvantage is gone and you are at a total disadvantage.
You see this mostly happen in ZvP where P (or Z) can win a fight just to get mauled by the next round of reinforcements because your left over's lacked the punch to pull thru (the story of nearly every failed Roach/Ling-Bust or Protoss 2 base all-in)... If a SC/BW battle ended really close, both sides needed a bit of time to reinforce, there was no instant 20-40 supply warp-in right before your base or another 80 supply reinforcement streaming from the Zerg base (at least not unless the Zerg had a truly glorious economy and built tons of hatcheries to get that many larva). Fast "remaxes" were possible but not "normal". Whoever thought removing build/reinforce-time (warp gate) or production restrictions (spawn larva) was a good idea was a true moron.
It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
WHAT?????? Have they watched even a single Zv*anything but Z in any tournament, ever?
As a zerg and i have to say, the game will be weird without carriers. I didnt play broodwar much, but there are some micro changes that i dont think make the unit as useful as it could be. That being said it is being used to great effective against zergs ultimate armies.
So it is more useful now than it has ever been in SC2 short life. Will the tempest eliminate the need for it, probably, but its gonna be a simple a-move unit, which is so uninteresting.
People might say the same for zergs and broodlords, but how many time do you see them getting sniped, quite often if they dont micro, launch, move back, launch move back. And you can micro the broodlings to target specific units. The more i think about it, its Zergs who have stolen the Carrier. Thanks, i will happily accept.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
WHAT?????? Have they watched even a single Zv*anything but Z in any tournament, ever?
I think he is addressing how if P or T get a third up with a ridiculous sim city with a tank or 2 on the high ground, there isnt much zerg can do until broodlords are out. They arent talking about early game with roach/ling/bane busts etc. And midgame bust 200/200 roach busts are becoming less common.
After every Dustin Browder interview I watch or read, some part inside me just dies, my intelligence diminishes (If I got any), an urge to break my sc2 collector's edition box rises...
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
WHAT?????? Have they watched even a single Zv*anything but Z in any tournament, ever?
I think he is addressing how if P or T get a third up with a ridiculous sim city with a tank or 2 on the high ground, there isnt much zerg can do until broodlords are out. They arent talking about early game with roach/ling/bane busts etc. And midgame bust 200/200 roach busts are becoming less common.
Name 3 maps in a normal tournament pool where a P/T could easilly defend themselves on 3 base. Let's say... Around 13mins (so 200/200 roach vP and infestor/ling/bling vT)
I'm sorry to be "that guy", but every tournament (and ladder) show Zerg with 60%+ winrates. They don't need more to push their advantage
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
I think I expanded on this in another bullet point. Basically sentries are really gas intensive, and losing them during an early game push is pretty painful, especially when you lose them during a failed bunker bust or sentry immortal timing push.
On July 10 2012 12:12 Tachion wrote:
In the afternoon of Friday, June 8th, we caught up with Dustin Browder, StarCraft 2's lead designer.
This interview was done a month ago and it only now got posted on TL?
Slasher waited weeks before he posted his interviews with David Kim.
If its a failed bunker bust, isn't the whole point to lose them cause realistically what does the Protoss lose then?
It bugs me that they don't address Terran late game, and still seem to focus on a 1A mech style rather than position mech style.
Exactly. These new mech units are terrible and are just gonna be used for all ins. From there they're just going to be nerfed into uselessness. They really need to focus on late game mech units.
On July 10 2012 22:24 Jimmy Raynor wrote: In almost every standard game I watch, zergs have advantage in supply and workers during the mid game. It doesn't make sense to give them a way to make that advantage into an almost guaranteed win
Supplycount (especially thanks to ridiculous 2 food roaches which just was a cop out instead of real balancing) does not matter. Cost effectivnes of the units does (this is were the roach was way to good and therefore had to become a 2 supply unit with BIG hardcounters that just maul it (Immortal/Marauder)... Funny looking supplycounts whiteout any meaning are the result).
One of the essential problems with SC2 is the instant remaxing/reinforcing Z/P can do:
Warpgates and spawn Larva (or the amount of Larva a Hatch can save) are a problem because (near) instant remaxing is more important than actually having a bigger army at the beginning of an engagement.
Simplification: 40 Probes / 160 Army vs 70 Probes / 130 Army. 160 Army will win the initial battle but the superior economy of 70 probes will allow way more reinforcements and therefore the bigger army will slowly shrink until the initial armyadvantage is gone and you are at a total disadvantage.
You see this mostly happen in ZvP where P (or Z) can win a fight just to get mauled by the next round of reinforcements because your left over's lacked the punch to pull thru (the story of nearly every failed Roach/Ling-Bust or Protoss 2 base all-in)... If a SC/BW battle ended really close, both sides needed a bit of time to reinforce, there was no instant 20-40 supply warp-in right before your base or another 80 supply reinforcement streaming from the Zerg base (at least not unless the Zerg had a truly glorious economy and built tons of hatcheries to get that many larva). Fast "remaxes" were possible but not "normal". Whoever thought removing build/reinforce-time (warp gate) or production restrictions (spawn larva) was a good idea was a true moron.
It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
Such a good point, this is a big reason mech isn't popular. You can't replace your army, and Zerg and Protoss have no shortage of units that can crush a tank line.
On July 10 2012 18:57 HeroMystic wrote: Has there been any changes to the Carrier during the span of SC2's history?
Have they ever attempted to make the Carrier viable? I'd understand axeing the Carrier if they actually tried.
Nope not a single change from the first beta build to 1.4.3 where we are atm.
I really don't get all the negativity in this thread, none of you have even played the game yet, and the build presented at mlg is probably about 6 months old by now, because they never use the newest build they have for these kind of things anyways.
Wait till the game comes out and we all have some experience from playing beta before you even think about judging any changes. 22 range does sound insane, but so does fungal, brood lords, ghosts, templar and colossi. Yet sc2 is doing fine with all of these in the game.
On July 10 2012 22:24 Jimmy Raynor wrote: In almost every standard game I watch, zergs have advantage in supply and workers during the mid game. It doesn't make sense to give them a way to make that advantage into an almost guaranteed win
Supplycount (especially thanks to ridiculous 2 food roaches which just was a cop out instead of real balancing) does not matter. Cost effectivnes of the units does (this is were the roach was way to good and therefore had to become a 2 supply unit with BIG hardcounters that just maul it (Immortal/Marauder)... Funny looking supplycounts whiteout any meaning are the result).
One of the essential problems with SC2 is the instant remaxing/reinforcing Z/P can do:
Warpgates and spawn Larva (or the amount of Larva a Hatch can save) are a problem because (near) instant remaxing is more important than actually having a bigger army at the beginning of an engagement.
Simplification: 40 Probes / 160 Army vs 70 Probes / 130 Army. 160 Army will win the initial battle but the superior economy of 70 probes will allow way more reinforcements and therefore the bigger army will slowly shrink until the initial armyadvantage is gone and you are at a total disadvantage.
You see this mostly happen in ZvP where P (or Z) can win a fight just to get mauled by the next round of reinforcements because your left over's lacked the punch to pull thru (the story of nearly every failed Roach/Ling-Bust or Protoss 2 base all-in)... If a SC/BW battle ended really close, both sides needed a bit of time to reinforce, there was no instant 20-40 supply warp-in right before your base or another 80 supply reinforcement streaming from the Zerg base (at least not unless the Zerg had a truly glorious economy and built tons of hatcheries to get that many larva). Fast "remaxes" were possible but not "normal". Whoever thought removing build/reinforce-time (warp gate) or production restrictions (spawn larva) was a good idea was a true moron.
It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
Such a good point, this is a big reason mech isn't popular. You can't replace your army, and Zerg and Protoss have no shortage of units that can crush a tank line.
Terran in general is essentially a race with BW's production scheme while Protoss and Zerg has SC2-era production (really damn fast), so Terran by default needs to be that much more cost effective which is why MMM is the best unit composition in the game. I liked it better when Tanks were the best unit in the Terran army and everything hinged on correct tank positioning and making the correct supporting units.
The only thing Blizzard can do is overpower Terran's units to compensate, or ramp up their production speed to allow them to remax too. I personally believe early and midgame has lost too much value to the lategame as it is, but perhaps balancing for lategame-rushes should be standard. At least all the tech is opened up.
-Give the widow mine to the hellion (I.E. Vulture!) I don't know why they don't want to this???? -Give carrier a little more range, like 9 or 9.5 like a brood lord (I believe its 8 range atm) Make interceptors ignore armor (could be OP, but worth a test) -I think they hydra should be redesigned completly. I don't see hive tech speed upgrade being useful. Perhaps increase the cost of hydras but make them beefier, similar to the protoss immortal? (Could be a bad idea, the unit wouldn't really feel "zergy" anymore) -I don't like the mothership core being early game at all. Seems like protoss can just attack with whatever and if it doesn't work out, just gtfo cuz honey badger don't care...
And on a side note, ZvZ with ultras is becoming very cool, in hots they will have burrow charge (seems kind of OP) but then they will also be not "frenzied" so fungal will make them useless in zvz
i don't understand his train of thought. he seems to want to make every race roughly homogenous to each other, only with differing macro mechanics. not looking forward to release at all...
22 range flying siege tanks, an interesting unit? wtf is he smoking?
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
WHAT?????? Have they watched even a single Zv*anything but Z in any tournament, ever?
I think he is addressing how if P or T get a third up with a ridiculous sim city with a tank or 2 on the high ground, there isnt much zerg can do until broodlords are out. They arent talking about early game with roach/ling/bane busts etc. And midgame bust 200/200 roach busts are becoming less common.
Name 3 maps in a normal tournament pool where a P/T could easilly defend themselves on 3 base. Let's say... Around 13mins (so 200/200 roach vP and infestor/ling/bling vT)
I'm sorry to be "that guy", but every tournament (and ladder) show Zerg with 60%+ winrates. They don't need more to push their advantage
You're missing the entire point. This isn't about win rates.
On July 10 2012 20:54 Toadvine wrote: I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game?
Well it seems easy for us here but designing a unit is a long process. They watched TvT of a couple months ago where everyone would go mech and no one would move because his siege line was right in front of you. If we are talking about past TvT, their statement is correct. So they go, "we should make a unit that is going to fix this problem". TThey come up with an idea, they tweak it and try to make in work. In the meanwhile players changed their playstyle and this problem is no longer relevant so what should they do ? Scrap it and start over ? HotS would never be released.
As for zerg not being able to convert advantage into a win, some say the zerg needs his one base advantage to say on equal footing, if that is true then is it really an advantage ?
I don't really care for the rationale behind their change, as long as their unit aren't completly boring or useless. When I look at the units they decided to add, I picture to myself what they do and how they will affect the current playstyle. In the end, if they do something good, for the wrong reasons, but it still ends up working and bring new ways to play the game to SC2, should we really care about the why ? I understand the why is what's keeping them from doing completely retarded stuff, but for now, they didn't do completely retarded stuff. The only obsolete unit they have presented is the Warhound in my opinion, and lots of people seem to agree that this unit has no place in the game.
EDIT : Yeah the warhound part seems a little confusing, I just wanted to say with this example that I understand the validity of your point and even agree with it to a small extent.
Blizzard needs to learn that you can't fucking micro-balance an RTS. You can't take every single metagame trend and respond to it with a balance patch. That's how we have such a diluted game now; so many strategies have been killed or nerfed in the past year or more because people instantly bitched the moment they came out and Blizzard didn't give the community a serious amount of time to actually react. Make an expansion to add content; continue the campaign, add to a race where it is severely lacking, but don't try to fix metagame trends by releasing an entire expansion.
On July 10 2012 20:54 Toadvine wrote: I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game?
Well it seems easy for us here but designing a unit is a long process. They watched TvT of a couple months ago where everyone would go mech and no one would move because his siege line was right in front of you. If we are talking about past TvT, their statement is correct. So they go, "we should make a unit that is going to fix this problem". TThey come up with an idea, they tweak it and try to make in work. In the meanwhile players changed their playstyle and this problem is no longer relevant so what should they do ? Scrap it and start over ? HotS would never be released.
As for zerg not being able to convert advantage into a win, some say the zerg needs his one base advantage to say on equal footing, if that is true then is it really an advantage ?
I don't really care for the rationale behind their change, as long as their unit aren't completly boring or useless. When I look at the units they decided to add, I picture to myself what they do and how they will affect the current playstyle. In the end, if they do something good, for the wrong reasons, but it still ends up working and bring new ways to play the game to SC2, should we really care about the why ? I understand the why is what's keeping them from doing completely retarded stuff, but for now, they didn't do completely retarded stuff. The only obsolete unit they have presented is the Warhound in my opinion, and lots of people seem to agree that this unit has no place in the game.
EDIT : Yeah the warhound part seems a little confusing, I just wanted to say with this example that I understand the validity of your point and even agree with it to a small extent.
Blizzard needs to learn that you can't fucking micro-balance an RTS. You can't take every single metagame trend and respond to it with a balance patch. That's how we have such a diluted game now; so many strategies have been killed or nerfed in the past year or more because people instantly bitched the moment they came out and Blizzard didn't give the community a serious amount of time to actually react. Make an expansion to add content; continue the campaign, add to a race where it is severely lacking, but don't try to fix metagame trends by releasing an entire expansion.
This.
Btw: Have you ever tought about what people would say nowadays about an addon like Broodwar?
Protoss --> Gets permanently invulnerable high damage unit from an allready existing building (whiteout giving Terran any new/better detection methods than Scan/Vessel/Turret). + Corsairs which make Mutas just look Terrible ^^.
Zerg --> Gets a high range Unit that attacks when burrowed for 20 damage in a line. Whiteout giving any race any better detection than before (+making Ultras tough as nails and fast as Zerglings ).
Terran --> Gets cheap Medic that heals Marines faster than most units can damage it and Gholiats just got infinite range ...
I can't imagine the shitstorm changes like this would cause nowadays. Judging based on this a range 22 Tempest does not sound too unlikely (but still stupid ).
On July 10 2012 20:54 Toadvine wrote: I should stop reading these interviews, the nonsense oozing out of them just makes me depressed. Or maybe I should keep reading, so my decision not to buy HotS is reinforced.
I mean, do you really look at how the game is now, and decide "Zerg should be able to just kill the opponent after getting ahead."? Not being able to instantly convert an advantage (which they get by default) into a win is the only thing keeping them from winning every game where they don't die to an all-in. It's difficult enough for both Terran and Protoss to defend various 3 base attacks from Zerg, right now.
And the comment about TvT being stale because of tanks just blows my mind. How the fuck do you arrive at this kind of conclusion? Best mirror matchup with the most viable openings and playstyles, and the most dynamic gameplay, and he says it's stale? Not PvP, with its endless turtling into mass colossus armies. Not ZvZ, with a line of roaches shooting at each other across the map. No, the problem definitely lies in TvT...
How can anyone read this and still believe HotS is going to improve the game?
Well it seems easy for us here but designing a unit is a long process. They watched TvT of a couple months ago where everyone would go mech and no one would move because his siege line was right in front of you. If we are talking about past TvT, their statement is correct. So they go, "we should make a unit that is going to fix this problem". TThey come up with an idea, they tweak it and try to make in work. In the meanwhile players changed their playstyle and this problem is no longer relevant so what should they do ? Scrap it and start over ? HotS would never be released.
As for zerg not being able to convert advantage into a win, some say the zerg needs his one base advantage to say on equal footing, if that is true then is it really an advantage ?
I don't really care for the rationale behind their change, as long as their unit aren't completly boring or useless. When I look at the units they decided to add, I picture to myself what they do and how they will affect the current playstyle. In the end, if they do something good, for the wrong reasons, but it still ends up working and bring new ways to play the game to SC2, should we really care about the why ? I understand the why is what's keeping them from doing completely retarded stuff, but for now, they didn't do completely retarded stuff. The only obsolete unit they have presented is the Warhound in my opinion, and lots of people seem to agree that this unit has no place in the game.
EDIT : Yeah the warhound part seems a little confusing, I just wanted to say with this example that I understand the validity of your point and even agree with it to a small extent.
Blizzard needs to learn that you can't fucking micro-balance an RTS. You can't take every single metagame trend and respond to it with a balance patch. That's how we have such a diluted game now; so many strategies have been killed or nerfed in the past year or more because people instantly bitched the moment they came out and Blizzard didn't give the community a serious amount of time to actually react. Make an expansion to add content; continue the campaign, add to a race where it is severely lacking, but don't try to fix metagame trends by releasing an entire expansion.
This.
Btw: Have you ever tought about what people would say nowadays about an addon like Broodwar?
Protoss --> Gets permanently invulnerable high damage unit from an allready existing building (whiteout giving Terran any new/better detection methods than Scan/Vessel/Turret). + Corsairs which make Mutas just look Terrible ^^.
Zerg --> Gets a high range Unit that attacks when burrowed for 20 damage in a line. Whiteout giving any race any better detection than before (+making Ultras tough as nails and fast as Zerglings ).
Terran --> Gets cheap Medic that heals Marines faster than most units can damage it and Gholiats just got infinite range ...
I can't imagine the shitstorm changes like this would cause nowadays. Judging based on this a range 22 Tempest does not sound too unlikely (but still stupid ).
StarCraft was designed with BW units in mind. WoL was not.
On July 10 2012 22:24 Jimmy Raynor wrote: In almost every standard game I watch, zergs have advantage in supply and workers during the mid game. It doesn't make sense to give them a way to make that advantage into an almost guaranteed win
Supplycount (especially thanks to ridiculous 2 food roaches which just was a cop out instead of real balancing) does not matter. Cost effectivnes of the units does (this is were the roach was way to good and therefore had to become a 2 supply unit with BIG hardcounters that just maul it (Immortal/Marauder)... Funny looking supplycounts whiteout any meaning are the result).
One of the essential problems with SC2 is the instant remaxing/reinforcing Z/P can do:
Warpgates and spawn Larva (or the amount of Larva a Hatch can save) are a problem because (near) instant remaxing is more important than actually having a bigger army at the beginning of an engagement.
Simplification: 40 Probes / 160 Army vs 70 Probes / 130 Army. 160 Army will win the initial battle but the superior economy of 70 probes will allow way more reinforcements and therefore the bigger army will slowly shrink until the initial armyadvantage is gone and you are at a total disadvantage.
You see this mostly happen in ZvP where P (or Z) can win a fight just to get mauled by the next round of reinforcements because your left over's lacked the punch to pull thru (the story of nearly every failed Roach/Ling-Bust or Protoss 2 base all-in)... If a SC/BW battle ended really close, both sides needed a bit of time to reinforce, there was no instant 20-40 supply warp-in right before your base or another 80 supply reinforcement streaming from the Zerg base (at least not unless the Zerg had a truly glorious economy and built tons of hatcheries to get that many larva). Fast "remaxes" were possible but not "normal". Whoever thought removing build/reinforce-time (warp gate) or production restrictions (spawn larva) was a good idea was a true moron.
It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
Great point. It almost seems like Blizzard is basing all their decisions on watching SC:BW instead of SC2. That is the only reason why david kim still thinks tanks are a threat and yet more units are needed to break a seige line. More seriously they do need to tone done warp gates and spawn larva. One easy way is for spawn larva to give only 2 larvas. Also warpgates should have a much longer cooldown i.e. protoss should be able to produce out of pure gateways faster. This means that warpgate based reinforcements will quickly run out of steam due to the time needed to get the next round of warpins. Then it would be a strategic choice to use warpgates. If they do this the game will be easier to balance.
'TvT matches can get a little stale.' (From the interview)
He's right. He's not saying it happens every game. He's not denying TvT in general is in a bad place. He's only saying TvT does sometimes get stale. I agree with him.
I don't know why you would base your opinion of HotS on an interview from a single person. You realise he's not the only one developing this game right? In fact, neither you nor anyone here has any clue of how competent their development team is. You can interpret and say whatever you like, but it's based on absolutely nothing.
You're absolutely right man, an interview by the lead designer of a game, wherein he explains his rationale about the stuff they're changing in an expansion, is absolutely nothing. Can't base opinions on anything he says. I should just buy the game, and then listen to people like you tell me to wait for LotV before judging it.
Seriously, what can I base my opinion on, in your view?
And for the TvT thing, it gets "stale" a lot less than basically every other matchup in the game, so why single it out? It's like he said he thought it was too easy to expand in PvP.
To be fair, they are adding the mothership core to change PvP too. iirc, there was an interview from a guy working for giantbomb or some other gaming site. I searched for it but couldnt find it. They said PvP sucks so they want to make it better as well. The mothership core will add easier defense for an expansion, I guess. Hopefully it will open up more options for PvP as a whole.
As for ZvZ, heres an interview about it. I didnt read the whole thing, but from the excerpt IdrA, who knows more about it than you and me combined probably, thinks that ZvZ is too dynamic. But he says that once people get better at it, it will be ok. Nothing needs to be patched for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350102 I think ZvZ midgame will probably be all over the place anyways in HotS. If I had to guess though, lategame ZvZ will probably be Infestor / Viper micro wars with Ultras / Hydra.
The problem with PvP nowadays isn't the inability to expand, you see players expanding all the time. The problem is that past the early game, Colossi dominate everything, and nothing in HotS appears to affect this dynamic. So, safer expansions will just lead to more boring Colossus vs Colossus games. Of course, that unit will never be changed, because Dustin Browder is busy nerfing Tanks to the ground.
I actually agree about ZvZ, recently it's become much more interesting and varied. Still, it's not as good as TvT. Hell, after the Queen buff made TvZ awful, TvT might well be the best matchup in the game in terms of spectator value. And Dustin Browder wants to change it, because in his opinion, Tanks make for boring games. I just don't get it. It's like he wants SC2 to fail as an esport.
I don't get how no one thinks carriers have a use in this game. It does, its a latelategame mech counter. But the obvious thing is, no one goes mech vs toss anymore. If they aim to improve mech vs toss in hots, then the carrier will automatically gain a use without any changes to it (altough if they could change it to be microable that would be fantastic).
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
I really don't understand this line of thought. He has to remove something because.... it is uselss and iconic? Why the hell doesn't he just remove repeaers while he is at it. If he thinks he can make other pathways more viable in certain matchup why doesn't he do the same for carriers.
Hearing the team talk say "don't wuss out" over removing a fkn unit makes me think they just has a vendetta against BW. Probably feels overshadowed by it...
Guys, Browder was lead designer for C&C RA 2 and Generals - really awesome e-sports games ... not. How could anyone expect that he/guys working for him are willing/able to balance a game like sc2 ... About the removing of the carrier, Browder should remove himself and think about the terrible terrible damage he did to starcraft.
Considering there are sooo freaking many gues on TL that know how to make a perfect RTS, one wonders why we still do not have one, and all we can do is to shit at blizzards obviously unsuccesfull and dumb sequell of still perfectly alive and very popular RTS.
On July 11 2012 02:20 Earendel wrote: Guys, Browder was lead designer for C&C RA 2 and Generals - really awesome e-sports games ... not. How could anyone expect that he/guys working for him are willing/able to balance a game like sc2 ... About the removing of the carrier, Browder should remove himself and think about the terrible terrible damage he did to starcraft.
Dude, just sayin', generals was one of the better c&cs of the EA era, expecially multiplayer.
Imagine what would've happened if blizzard had hired the C&C 4 guy....
they will realize this in the beta and likely change almost everything
zerg isnt SUPPOSED to be able to push a midgame advantage into a powerful swift victory IF the enemy is defending properly
ZvT is SUPPOSED to be like that. if T gets 3 bases and some sieged tanks, the zerg is SUPPOSED to just take the entire map and tech to tier3 to crush the terran instead of just winning outright in the midgame. Thats how the matchup was in BW too. And this concept is supposed to and does give the terran a fighting chance because in the process he likely hits 200food and gets the option to utilize his maxed army to the best of his ability to hopefully damage the zerg hard enough to win
ZvT is SUPPOSED to be like that
PvZ is SUPPOSED to be like that
thats what makes it fun. browder saying he wants to give zergs the ability to push easier to win off midgame advantages is just stupid its like saying they want to destroy central concepts of PvZ and TvZ
TvT is SUPPOSED to be extremely methodical tank based line battles. It was that in BW and its supposed to be that way! saying they want to change it just means they seriously are losing touch with the game
i really believe sc2 was so successful because even though blizzard changed alot of it from bw, it still had many similarities to BW.
I believe the further away you take sc2 from bw, the worse it gets. I think MBS and smartcasting and max unit selection were good for the game but my point here is that the styles of the matchup seem to highly resemble BW and i think thats a reason its so entertaining
the more you try to destroy the styles of the matchups and take it away from looking like BW the worse the game will get. if they release hots like its looking it will be, then WoL will probably remain the most entertaining and main tournament version
however, im confident in the HOTS beta people will realize exactly what im talking about, they will realize how much the game sucks, and im sure blizzard will definitely change almost everything come release
shows how much they know about the game when in MLG they were saying stuff like "we wanted to add something that gives terran players a way to combat and break those tank lines in TvT. give more variety"
WHY?? WHY???? tvt is supposed to be long drawn out tank wars. it is exciting FOR VIEWERS and probably the most entertaining matchup after ruining TvZ
your not supposed to destroy core conepts in a matchup maybe add small nice dazzling things that dont effect things too drastically
Thing is, TvT isn't normally drawn out tank wars in SC2. Marine/Tank TvT is very dynamic, with multiple groups of units moving around, siege lines being established and broken at various positions, drops, and in general a lot of action all over the map. Tank wars with an air transition only really happen when it's mech vs mech, on specific maps that are easy to split. Crossfire, for instance, was infamous for its drawn out TvTs. But really, this does not happen that often.
On July 11 2012 03:22 Toadvine wrote: Thing is, TvT isn't normally drawn out tank wars in SC2. Marine/Tank TvT is very dynamic, with multiple groups of units moving around, siege lines being established and broken at various positions, drops, and in general a lot of action all over the map. Tank wars with an air transition only really happen when it's mech vs mech, on specific maps that are easy to split. Crossfire, for instance, was infamous for its drawn out TvTs. But really, this does not happen that often.
thats what i meant dude im talking about marine/tank the most dynamic fun matchup we have and they wanna give more options to break tankline lol... please its fine the way it is
They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2.
I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
On July 11 2012 04:03 RegniG wrote: I see so much enthusiasm, ideas and passion, however the majority of it seems to be lying with the community and not with the people making the game
Because we are the most valuable asset they have. W/o the us, its nothing.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2.
I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help)
Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Banelings are actually one of the better new SC2 units. They force the opponent to micro, can be used in straight up engagements, drops in minerals lines or on top of armies, and as land mines. They singlehandedly make ZvZ not retarded (like BW ZvZ usually was), and play a vital role in TvZ. Just because Effort decided to make only banelings against bio with tank support, does not mean they're poorly designed.
Truthfully, it's Infestors (what effort should've been making) that are poorly designed and make the game worse than it could be.
On July 11 2012 02:34 naastyOne wrote: Considering there are sooo freaking many gues on TL that know how to make a perfect RTS, one wonders why we still do not have one, and all we can do is to shit at blizzards obviously unsuccesfull and dumb sequell of still perfectly alive and very popular RTS.
It's not like the credit goes to Blizzard that SC2 is popular and is where it is today. If it wasn't for the pillars of this community that came from BW, this game would be fucking dead by now. The only reason Dustin Browder didn't fail at another game is because it has the name Starcraft in the titel and the already Starcraft community here on Teamliquid just automaticly transfered over because it was a sequel. If the game was released as Space Wars in 2010 with the exact same gameplay and Teamliquid, Day9. Tastosis. Husky and HDStarcraft etc didn't care for it at all and couldn't make money out of it like they were able to and just stayed with BW, where would this Space Wars be today do you think?
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2.
I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help)
Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
Thank you. I was being subtle before when I said that I would wait for the beta to pass judgment on changes, hoping that other people would catch on that the smart thing to do is to wait to see how the new stuff looks in beta form when we actually get to play with it. No dice though.
It really seems to boil down to "change is scary." See I can remember when StarCraft 1 was first released, and I can remember when Brood War was first released. StarCraft 1 on release was terribly balanced and the balance patches that came after sometimes made things even worse. When Brood War came out the game was still terribly balanced, but eventually it got to the point that it's at today. These things really do take some time.
It's pretty obvious that Blizzard is learning. They do listen to the community, slowly, but they listen. They're also more careful with balance than they have been in the past. In the past it was pretty common for Blizzard to release a patch where they would just absolutely gut a unit that was too strong, or increase the damage of a unit by 25-30% if it felt too weak. Now you get things like +/- 1 range on a unit, very slight movement speed changes, +/- 1 armor, etc. They're taking baby steps towards balancing. You know, balance, it's delicate. Personally I'm happy that Blizzard isn't taking the bull in a china shop approach.
With the expansion, yeah they're making some big changes, changes that may take some getting used to. This is pretty standard, they did that with Brood War as well. They did it with the War 3 expansion, they've done it with every expansion they've ever released. They see stuff they don't like so they change it.
Just because something is different it doesn't mean that it's bad, we really need to wait until we get it into our hands, and other capable hands, before we can start pulling it apart. At the moment it's nothing but eye candy. If in practice it's broken we'll get them to fix it. If they didn't care about our feedback they wouldn't have beta tests, but we need to actually have experience with the changes before we can give them valuable feedback.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
banelings are actually incredibly powerful IF TANKS DIDNT EXIST
if tanks didnt exist banelings just roll through everything
but when tanks are on the field, 10banelings kinda has the same effect as 50 banelings. its so easy while zergs attacking for banelings to clump and then 1 tank shot kills 15 banelings
infestors are almost always the smarter choice because 1 infestor costs as much as 6banelings (gas wise) however their fungal is longrange and fast so just click it on a pack of marines and boom they take insane damage chain fungal twice and a ball of bio is practically dead. and if you micro well and save infestors for another battle a couple infestors can have the power of 100 banelings in TvZ literally
i think the smartest way to use banelings is always have about 12 of them at your main defensive position for your 3bases, then when you go fight on the map take 6 of those banelings, hotkey them into your main army and fight with those 6 banelings in your army. then you fight that battle and hopefully trade well and then for the next battle use the next 6 banelings while morphing 6more to serve as backup again
as far as im concerned 6 banelings in your army is still pretty powerful, almost as powerful as 50 if your enemy has tanks, but way cheaper than 50, and with infestor support you wreck everything. infestors also have a very insane strength in infested terran bombing tanklines trading 25 energy for multiple tank shots at the start of battle, where as banelings trade 10 banelings (500 minerals 250 gas) for a single tank shot
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2.
I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help)
Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
You are wrong, but i guess you want to look at this as half-empty. The truth is that there are many suggestions in various threads that have enough merit to be seriously considered for improving this game but it will never happen. Personally i am the first one to admit that i don't want another BW (look at my post history) and i firmly believbe that suggesting to put in the game BW units is just dumb. But the way the "Blizzard balancing team" has been diluting this game in the effort to balance based on the metagame (a lot of times) and now adding boring 1a units to the race which clearly had the higher skill/reward ratio to battle the boring units of the other two races is frankly diheartening to say the least. Honestly, HOTS looks horrible at the moment and considering the poor job that Blizzard had done after the release of WOL i am very pessimistic.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2.
I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help)
Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
You are wrong, but i guess you want to look at this as half-empty. The truth is that there are many suggestions in various threads that have enough merit to be seriously considered for improving this game but it will never happen. Personally i am the first one to admit that i don't want another BW (look at my post history) and i firmly believbe that suggesting to put in the game BW units is just dumb. But the way the "Blizzard balancing team" has been diluting this game in the effort to balance based on the metagame (a lot of times) and now adding boring 1a units to the race which clearly had the higher skill/reward ratio to battle the boring units of the other two races is frankly diheartening to say the least. Honestly, HOTS looks horrible at the moment and considering the poor job that Blizzard had done after the release of WOL i am very pessimistic.
I agree with this bolded part most strongly. Think about the units added to BW from the original Starcraft: Valkyrie, Corsair, Devourer. Medic, Dark Archon, Dark Templar, Lurker.
The units they added don't feel like units that improve what the races could already do. They let all 3 races do new things they couldn't do before. A lot - not all - but a lot of Blizzard's current new unit/balance approach is "fix what already exists," not "expand and create something new."
Fixing things like Zerg's ability to attack, or Protoss's passivity shouldn't come from a new unit. It should come from tinkering with current values like minor patches. New units should focus on adding new aspects to the game that nobody could've ever imagined before because, well, they didn't exist.
Basically instead of innovating, Blizzard is playing a sloppy catch-up game with player complaints.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2.
I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help)
Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
Thank you. I was being subtle before when I said that I would wait for the beta to pass judgment on changes, hoping that other people would catch on that the smart thing to do is to wait to see how the new stuff looks in beta form when we actually get to play with it. No dice though.
It really seems to boil down to "change is scary." See I can remember when StarCraft 1 was first released, and I can remember when Brood War was first released. StarCraft 1 on release was terribly balanced and the balance patches that came after sometimes made things even worse. When Brood War came out the game was still terribly balanced, but eventually it got to the point that it's at today. These things really do take some time.
It's pretty obvious that Blizzard is learning. They do listen to the community, slowly, but they listen. They're also more careful with balance than they have been in the past. In the past it was pretty common for Blizzard to release a patch where they would just absolutely gut a unit that was too strong, or increase the damage of a unit by 25-30% if it felt too weak. Now you get things like +/- 1 range on a unit, very slight movement speed changes, +/- 1 armor, etc. They're taking baby steps towards balancing. You know, balance, it's delicate. Personally I'm happy that Blizzard isn't taking the bull in a china shop approach.
With the expansion, yeah they're making some big changes, changes that may take some getting used to. This is pretty standard, they did that with Brood War as well. They did it with the War 3 expansion, they've done it with every expansion they've ever released. They see stuff they don't like so they change it.
Just because something is different it doesn't mean that it's bad, we really need to wait until we get it into our hands, and other capable hands, before we can start pulling it apart. At the moment it's nothing but eye candy. If in practice it's broken we'll get them to fix it. If they didn't care about our feedback they wouldn't have beta tests, but we need to actually have experience with the changes before we can give them valuable feedback.
This is a great post, it doesn't even matter if you agree with what he is stating or not. The way he presents his ideas in a non "get your pitchforks" way is the real way to discuss what this community thinks should be done. Just wanted to point that out.
Well on to what i would like to say, HOTS seems kinda off from what has been provided to us by blizzard, the lack of improvement in certain areas and the seemingly wasted energy in areas that seemed fine as they were. However, we really have to wait and see how the units feel in the game. Let's be honest who didn't originally look at the baneling before WoL beta came out and wasn't appalled by it.
The other changes that I see great promise in (adds to the skill of the game, micro intensive play, excitement, ability for innovation, etc.) are:
PROTOSS
-Mothership core: With the recall ability I think Blizzard is trying to get earlier skirmishes to start and take place to avoid the stalemate that generally occurs up until the 10ish minute mark, possibly longer with the larger maps. Toss has a whole lot of all-ins that present a balance issue but this change is a promising one in my mind.
22 range, plus new raiding units- Both are focused on harassment/break stalemate positions. With the addition of these low/no dps units are an attempt to reduce the toss deathball as they take a large amount of supply to be effective at their jobs (my opinion, is not certain until beta.)
Overall i feel as though they are giving Toss a variety of options to discourage turtling to deathball, and Toss players should be greatly excited in my opinion
TERRAN
-disclaimer: I am a Terran player but am trying to be as open as possible to the changes so take everything with a grain salt.
-Battle Hellion: Frankly its a little disappointing from a creativity standpoint, but from an innovation standpoint I am excited. It'll for sure make Zergs stay of their toes in early game as it opens up a whole of pushes. Also it is no secret that JB wants to promote mech, these new tanky units will help tank some of that massive damage the toss army puts out similarly to Marauders but they do bonus light damage.
-Warhound: I don't really have an opinion frankly, havent decided if i approve or disapprove yet.
-Widow Mine: Same as above, also removes deathball as they take supply and cant to immediate damage.
Battlecruiser speed ability: Biggest change for TvP in my opinion, it gives the Terran a powerhouse in late game. You use the speed boost to drain energy in preparation for the battle to not only get to the battle quicker but to also nullify any feedbacks. Needless to say i think this upgrade will play a huge role
ZERG
-Overall (no specifics really): I feel like they are trying to allow zergs to be able to skirmish without taking a SIGNIFICANT hit in drone count (another deathball avoidance attempt thing in my opinion),
Blizzard overall seems to have a specific goal in mind for each race, but IMO their main goal is to encourage skirmishes throughout the game. They seem to want every race in every MU to be able to go back and forth as aggressor and defender so that the game increases in entertainment value and general joy that is derived from playing, and we all know having little battles throughout the game to test the opponent is way more entertaining than the deathball battles we tend to see now.
The adjustments they have made in WoL seems to put holes in my theory but who knows what goes on in their heads xD.
I'm not to excited about Protoss and Terran in HOTS. I was hoping for more love for the Templar Tech. Especially for the DT. Bring back the Dark Archon Blizz. But, with new spells. The oracle is nice, but I feel that the cloak should be passive. Vikings can shit on a stagnate oracle in like 2 seconds. The Tempest is boring and stupid. Fix the Carrier Blizzard!!!!. All it needs is to have pre-built Interceptors and a faster build time. A speed buff equal to the BC would be nice too.
Terran Need more remodeling. Terran has the most nitch specific units, yet they are the slowest to Transition. Terran should be the race that's like," I'm going to do this composition(Bio, BioTank, Mech) and they have to respond to me". Protoss and Zerg can Tech switch in an instant, Terran can't. We need a way to transition into the Lategame. In BW all games eventually devolved into the Terran going Mech. It was strong sturdy slow and expensive. And the only way to pull it off was by either taking and economic advantage by FE or Harassing the opponent.
For some reason DK and DB think Mech is purely about Turtling to 200/200. This is a horrible idea. No race should EZPZ get too 200/200 Death Army with out having to put work to get there.
Zerg looks cool, but there are some changes I don't like. Such as "Pull" and Ultra Charge. The first seems useless against Protoss because of Blink, but OP verses the Tank. And the second just seems straight up OP and gimmicky. Ultras need a slightly smaller model and a speed upgrade. That's about it.
EDIT: In regards to Terran HOTS units. Warhound, and BattleHellion are lazy, boring answers to the issues Terran face in the TvP lategame. Also the Widow mine is a gimmick unit that will be solved during the 1st month of Beta. Collosi and HTs are Flipping 9 range mine sweepers. Not to mention that Broodlings, FG, and Locust completly crap on them.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2.
I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help)
Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
Thank you. I was being subtle before when I said that I would wait for the beta to pass judgment on changes, hoping that other people would catch on that the smart thing to do is to wait to see how the new stuff looks in beta form when we actually get to play with it. No dice though.
It really seems to boil down to "change is scary." See I can remember when StarCraft 1 was first released, and I can remember when Brood War was first released. StarCraft 1 on release was terribly balanced and the balance patches that came after sometimes made things even worse. When Brood War came out the game was still terribly balanced, but eventually it got to the point that it's at today. These things really do take some time.
It's pretty obvious that Blizzard is learning. They do listen to the community, slowly, but they listen. They're also more careful with balance than they have been in the past. In the past it was pretty common for Blizzard to release a patch where they would just absolutely gut a unit that was too strong, or increase the damage of a unit by 25-30% if it felt too weak. Now you get things like +/- 1 range on a unit, very slight movement speed changes, +/- 1 armor, etc. They're taking baby steps towards balancing. You know, balance, it's delicate. Personally I'm happy that Blizzard isn't taking the bull in a china shop approach.
With the expansion, yeah they're making some big changes, changes that may take some getting used to. This is pretty standard, they did that with Brood War as well. They did it with the War 3 expansion, they've done it with every expansion they've ever released. They see stuff they don't like so they change it.
Just because something is different it doesn't mean that it's bad, we really need to wait until we get it into our hands, and other capable hands, before we can start pulling it apart. At the moment it's nothing but eye candy. If in practice it's broken we'll get them to fix it. If they didn't care about our feedback they wouldn't have beta tests, but we need to actually have experience with the changes before we can give them valuable feedback.
Based upon WC3 I think there is a good reason to be scared.
WC3 classic had a HUGE problems with casters being to all around good, they had strong spells and a decent attack and weren't even THAT squishy compared to other "small" units.....
Don't get me wrong, TfT is a good game and for sure improved W3c BUT i liked the W3c "dmg/armor-system" better (for everyone that does not remember/know, TfT changed the whole armor/attack-counter mechanics, it even added in a completly new one for many existing units AND it cut all unit prices by 20% or something like that AND allowed higher max supply with later upkeep penalties.) I allways tought the DMG-System change was unecessary, why was never really tryed to just nerf the crap out of Caster-Damagel? They nerfed some of them several times, a bit but they still kept dominating everything... The obvious answer was NERF THEM MORE... But for some reason they did not want that, they even added anti-caster units for 2-3 of the races with TfT but still seemed to think that would not be enough (destroyers, bloodelve-guys and, somewhat, mountain giants) .
Now i don't know if a WC3-TfT with "fixed" caster damage would have been the better game, but I allways tought that rehauling your whole dmg-system just because your not willing to nerf the dmg of certain units to the ground (spellcasters) was an overreaction ^^.
TFT worked out very good and i was a big fan of the cost/upkeep reduction but i think a fixed WC3 system (with most of the other stuff TfT brought) could have been better.
To this day i'm kinda impressed by the balls they had to change the game like that, they for sure don't have the balls to do something like this anymore... Else HOTS would probably look very diffrent because judging from the WC3 to TfT transition NOTHING seemed impossible to change.
I can't believe the mech unit will still require that incredibly slow thor for air coverage and that Siege tanks are going to get even worse. To those of you saying that bringing back BW is a bad idea since its not creative well guess what, the new blizz is even less creative than that. A mine that takes ten seconds to explode? whats stopping me from attacking my own marine or mara or hellion its attached to and killing it in 1/2 second before it goes off? Tempest instead of fixing the carrier? Fail. The zergs new pull ability? Hm... if its good, ppl wont build certain units. If its bad, ppl wont use it. Less diversity=bad. Same issue they've had with NP for the last year and half. Warp gates are terrible for previous reasons stated. Needs removal. Protoss get a worry free attack and a planetary fortress on top of that? Why dont zerg and terran get free attacks no punishment for making bad decision attacks? No one should have that. If you make a bad attack you should be punished for it. The reason for the recall ability is terrible. The sentry is a terrible unit w/ FF. FF and warp gate (just happen to be 'new blizz's ideas) have broken protoss into using FF as a crutch and now they are making an even worse decision to try and fix it by making a recall ability. Rapidly losing faith in blizzard. I'll wait til this expo is in beta to say they are done for as pc gaming king. But things aren't looking good imo.
On July 11 2012 03:55 Genie1 wrote: They need to remove Dustin Browder from the SC2 team. If they plan to have this game last beyond 2 years after the final release. I watching proleague yesterday on Sayle's stream and watching how badly EffOrt lost due to just making tons of banelings. If EffOrt had a lurker the game would have looked vastly more different.
He lost with 1,5k gas in the bank, having never made an infestation pit in a 20 minute game, after mining off four bases for a significant period of time. You can blame a lot on Dustin Browder, but this particular failure is all on Effort.
And interestingly enough, the game itself was pretty good, and a lot of fun to watch.
He kept on making banelings though so never having the money to actually afford any tech structures. The unit is badly designed and very poor counter to use against marines. A bad unit should not stay in the game and should be replaced by a unit that can actually be effective against units.
Imagine if you can rush in with ling/lurker with marines that cannot move and you will quite guess why lurkers wouldn't be a good unit in SC2.
I think that TeamLiquid needs to make an open petition on removing Dustin Balder off the SC2 team. He messed with this game long enough.
Go start a thread, see if TL will allow it. (hint: they won't, and calling him Dustin Balder won't help)
Actually, "the community" has no good ideas if by community one means people in this thread. I get it, change is scary and when Blizzard takes something away it furthers resentment against them. But you can't look into the future, you don't know how the units that will take their place will end up. I guess it's easier to just whine and make up rationalizations for why Brood War units should be added to the game, but that's certainly a failure of imagination imo.
If you look at hots, brood war units where added into the game, but kinda changed and washed down to gimicky crap. widow mine= wana be spider mine warhound= wana be goliath viper= wana be defiler swarm host= wana be lurker oracle= wana be arbiter
A 22 range unit has no place in an rts, like wtf is he thinking? That stops any posturing to happen, posturing is what makes death balls smaller, if an army can't set up a position because some 22 range unit gets free shots off, how are they supppost to go harass, attack other places. That was the beauty of BW you could set up a position and atack from it through different paths, that's what made the armys smaller. I like the idea of removing dustin browder as he's got no clue as to how to make units. A good testament to that would be to look at the red alert series, total crap.
I wish the next interview with Dustin Browder would actually press him on the carrier and follow-up with the community made points on why the Carrier should stay that DB doesn't read/ignores. Seriously, one of the most widely discussed topics surrounding HotS (not just on TL). DB claims they read as much as they can about user feedback, and every single time the carrier arguments go over DB's radar in every interview. Somehow he only catches the same argument he caught months ago about the Carrier being iconic.
So all Terran will get is MAYBE the widow mine, reaper life regen updrade,a shitty transformer robot, and the warhound?? Is there ANYONE in Blizzard who plays Terran?
-disclaimer: I am a Terran player but am trying to be as open as possible to the changes so take everything with a grain salt.
-Battle Hellion: Frankly its a little disappointing from a creativity standpoint, but from an innovation standpoint I am excited. It'll for sure make Zergs stay of their toes in early game as it opens up a whole of pushes. Also it is no secret that JB wants to promote mech, these new tanky units will help tank some of that massive damage the toss army puts out similarly to Marauders but they do bonus light damage.
-Warhound: I don't really have an opinion frankly, havent decided if i approve or disapprove yet.
-Widow Mine: Same as above, also removes deathball as they take supply and cant to immediate damage.
Battlecruiser speed ability: Biggest change for TvP in my opinion, it gives the Terran a powerhouse in late game. You use the speed boost to drain energy in preparation for the battle to not only get to the battle quicker but to also nullify any feedbacks. Needless to say i think this upgrade will play a huge role
Battle Hellion - that doesn't feel like a real new unit. It could be good if it was more different from fast hellion ; but right now it's not really interesting.
Warhound - enjoy your mechanical 1a move marauder.
Widow Mines - they are very effective defensively and will effectively shut down all harass, thus making your deathball way stronger. That and both reusing the BW unit and implementing something new are fine by me, bu ripping off BW with a different name and making the unit less interesting in the process is just plain bad.
Battlecruiser ability - another useless energy dump for feedback, just like strike cannons. Doesn't fix the main problem of BC's : they suck at actually fighting.
As much as I like the protoss and zerg ideas, I feel that Blizzard are seriously fucking up with terran. Especially with every new unit being shown as a counter to tanks.
If they don't find the right cost for the widow mine, they better give terran something else. As it is, it is the less exciting race for the expansion. Furthermore, few people want to play terran this days. If they just give us the warhound and the battle hellion, terran will die.
-disclaimer: I am a Terran player but am trying to be as open as possible to the changes so take everything with a grain salt.
-Battle Hellion: Frankly its a little disappointing from a creativity standpoint, but from an innovation standpoint I am excited. It'll for sure make Zergs stay of their toes in early game as it opens up a whole of pushes. Also it is no secret that JB wants to promote mech, these new tanky units will help tank some of that massive damage the toss army puts out similarly to Marauders but they do bonus light damage.
-Warhound: I don't really have an opinion frankly, havent decided if i approve or disapprove yet.
-Widow Mine: Same as above, also removes deathball as they take supply and cant to immediate damage.
Battlecruiser speed ability: Biggest change for TvP in my opinion, it gives the Terran a powerhouse in late game. You use the speed boost to drain energy in preparation for the battle to not only get to the battle quicker but to also nullify any feedbacks. Needless to say i think this upgrade will play a huge role
Battle Hellion - that doesn't feel like a real new unit. It could be good if it was more different from fast hellion ; but right now it's not really interesting.
Warhound - enjoy your mechanical 1a move marauder.
Widow Mines - they are very effective defensively and will effectively shut down all harass, thus making your deathball way stronger. That and both reusing the BW unit and implementing something new are fine by me, bu ripping off BW with a different name and making the unit less interesting in the process is just plain bad.
Battlecruiser ability - another useless energy dump for feedback, just like strike cannons. Doesn't fix the main problem of BC's : they suck at actually fighting.
As much as I like the protoss and zerg ideas, I feel that Blizzard are seriously fucking up with terran. Especially with every new unit being shown as a counter to tanks.
very narrow minded. If you know anything about this game. One of there biggest problems (terrans) is thier inability to retreat there expensive units. Protoss have FF to save expensive units/Recall works same way, Fungal halts any persuing army. Terran have nothing that can be used. Terran will still be weak in this area. This ability will help bcs to be able to retreat. Sure Bc's can be fedbacked but they need some type of weakness.
Funny how Blizzard can do nothing right in the eyes of this community.
They're ripping off Brood War with the spider mine! They're not copying Brood War enough! They're not adding new stuff to terran, the most diverse race currently, they're just opening up new pathways like mech and making battlecruiser better and things like that! New maps? Why don't they just use the community maps? No new maps? Are they so incompetent they can't make them theirselves? Why are they giving this ability to this race when others have nothing like it? Why are they making the races so similar?
On July 14 2012 09:44 Heavenlee wrote: Funny how Blizzard can do nothing right in the eyes of this community.
They're ripping off Brood War with the spider mine! They're not copying Brood War enough! They're not adding new stuff to terran, the most diverse race currently, they're just opening up new pathways like mech and making battlecruiser better and things like that! New maps? Why don't they just use the community maps? No new maps? Are they so incompetent they can't make them theirselves? Why are they giving this ability to this race when others have nothing like it? Why are they making the races so similar?
What a joke.
I agree with you. People complain to much and a lot of nerds hate change. I feel if change comes there like omg change. Either wait for the game to come out and judge it then or give blizzard some advice on how to make the game better.
On July 14 2012 09:44 Heavenlee wrote: Funny how Blizzard can do nothing right in the eyes of this community.
They're ripping off Brood War with the spider mine! They're not copying Brood War enough! They're not adding new stuff to terran, the most diverse race currently, they're just opening up new pathways like mech and making battlecruiser better and things like that! New maps? Why don't they just use the community maps? No new maps? Are they so incompetent they can't make them theirselves? Why are they giving this ability to this race when others have nothing like it? Why are they making the races so similar?
What a joke.
I agree with you. People complain to much and a lot of nerds hate change. I feel if change comes there like omg change. Either wait for the game to come out and judge it then or give blizzard some advice on how to make the game better.
Agreed. People need to stop whining about change. HOTS isn't even in beta yet its still in alpha. Anything can be changed by the time the beta starts and the actual release.
I don't think there's anything wrong with giving feedback on general unit design. Something like "We don't feel like tanks need this many counters" is constructive, helpful feedback for blizzard even though the beta isn't here yet.
Bitching and dramatic conclusions obviously aren't. Gotta keep that fine balance.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
what ????? 8 gate seems pretty passive to me :D -.- also pvz is like, noone uses 2 base gateway allins at all, noone. XD
also, adding mines and "buffing" hellions won't do anything for mech in pvt since immortals still counter every mech unit in the game. Or maybe it will but we will see.
Make it work like you want Tempest to work. Give the Interceptors an upgrade that sends them out at 22 range.
Worse idea.
He make it up , its simple
There is no info where beta will be live , and Dustin just say this , nothing more about beta. + Show Spoiler +
I will ask a question that I will probably not get an answer to. You said in the press kit that a beta will launch in the summer. How long will it last, approximately?
It’s not an unreasonable question but I don’t know, depends on when we ship. Usually, we’ll shut down a month before launch and when we can’t make any more changes. First, we have to finish that 1.5 patch that’s coming, there are few bugs still there. So when that’s done, we’ll start thinking when can the beta be released. And then we calculate when we’ll probably ship.
During the HotS open beta, will the interface and Battle.net see the changes and features that will be implemented in the full version?
I don’t think you’ll see a bunch of them initially. I was talking to Alan [Dabiri, Lead Software Engineer] and he was worried that we won’t have enough if we go live too soon. But that’s ok as we need to test the multiplayer and that’s what the beta is really for. And we can patch mid-beta with the new features so you can test and make sure they’re not broken at launch. So there won’t probably be much stuff when the beta launches but it will get updated in the process.
On July 14 2012 09:44 Heavenlee wrote: Funny how Blizzard can do nothing right in the eyes of this community.
They're ripping off Brood War with the spider mine! They're not copying Brood War enough! They're not adding new stuff to terran, the most diverse race currently, they're just opening up new pathways like mech and making battlecruiser better and things like that! New maps? Why don't they just use the community maps? No new maps? Are they so incompetent they can't make them theirselves? Why are they giving this ability to this race when others have nothing like it? Why are they making the races so similar?
What a joke.
So you're complaining that fans are complaining? Blizzard has unlimited resources to produce well-crafted games in return for its dominance of the PC gaming market. If a lot of loyal players (who want the game to succeed) complain, the fault's all on Blizzard for not living up to their vaunted reputation.
Hasn't seen a good argument for the carrier? How about to keep that abomination of a unit called the Tempest out of the game. Tweak the carrier and it can fill the Tempest roll even better, and be a much more interesting unit. Tvt is anything but stale. Tank lines make the matchup so good imo. Terran is the only race with real space control and it makes tvt so amazing. Nothing wrong with zerg being passive either imo, races should be different. Christ I hate Browder, that interview is very discouraging.
On July 14 2012 09:44 Heavenlee wrote: Funny how Blizzard can do nothing right in the eyes of this community.
They're ripping off Brood War with the spider mine! They're not copying Brood War enough! They're not adding new stuff to terran, the most diverse race currently, they're just opening up new pathways like mech and making battlecruiser better and things like that! New maps? Why don't they just use the community maps? No new maps? Are they so incompetent they can't make them theirselves? Why are they giving this ability to this race when others have nothing like it? Why are they making the races so similar?
What a joke.
Well I'm sure God might feel the same way.
I figure HotS will be better than Diablo 3 at the very least.
On July 14 2012 12:10 6NR wrote: Kinda agree with the Carrier bit. And is it obvious that DB loves terran too much?
Judging by the past patch history, DB was abused by Terran players in BW. And I really dont like swarm hosts, it is redundant when there are broodlords already
On July 14 2012 12:10 6NR wrote: Kinda agree with the Carrier bit. And is it obvious that DB loves terran too much?
Judging by the past patch history, DB was abused by Terran players in BW. And I really dont like swarm hosts, it is redundant when there are broodlords already
What makes you think that? Supply nerf? Cost nerf? Damage nerf? Graviton beam? Immortals? Abduct? Marauders?
On July 14 2012 09:44 Heavenlee wrote: IF they're incapable of designing something better than the better spider mine, why don't they just copy it? IF they're incapable of designing maps better than the community that force cross spawns, why don't they just take ours? IF they want mech to be viable, why not buff siege tanks and hellions instead of adding a horrible new mech unit?
Fixed. IF the ideas were better, we wouldn't be having these discussions. Not all designers are equally talented, and as Voltaire once said, 'common sense is not so common.'
On July 14 2012 12:42 Skew wrote: * Removing David Kim because we made the mistake of hiring a janitor to balance the largest RTS in history
Hiring a balance guy was such a horrible idea, because he has positive incentive to make rash changes to the game to appease the battle.net newbies. I'm sure he's a nice and smart guy, but it was a mistake.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
4 gate, and 2 base 8 gate all inn are very common. It is interesting that he said this. Maybe he was referring to the very early game before warp gates are up?
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
?????????????????????????????
4 gate, and 2 base 8 gate all inn are very common. It is interesting that he said this. Maybe he was referring to the very early game before warp gates are up?
he isnt talking about all ins. he is talking about being aggressive. For protoss it tends to be one and the same thing which isnt true for zerg or terran
TvT is regarded as the best mirror matchup but apparently it is "too boring" for the Blizzard dev team.
On July 10 2012 12:30 CursOr wrote: Gateway units early game are never really a threat to 5 bunkers or 7 spines.
Dumbest statement of the year. "Barracks units early game are never really a threat to 7 cannons."
On July 10 2012 23:31 Velr wrote: It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
The balance team certainly doesn't see it like that. Hence terrans getting facerolled and nerfed anytime something was a little cost efficient...
Get out the beta! So looking forward to the new expansion. I wonder if they will continue the bronze,silver,gold rankings or might introduce something cooler
On July 14 2012 12:55 Griffith` wrote: thanks for the interview ^_^ just saved me $50 !
My thoughts exactly. Sadly i spent 90 bucks on d3 already. Boring and unworthy sucessor to d2, plus the fact that the system makes no sense at all. Spent 12 years waiting for WoW diablo edition.
-disclaimer: I am a Terran player but am trying to be as open as possible to the changes so take everything with a grain salt.
-Battle Hellion: Frankly its a little disappointing from a creativity standpoint, but from an innovation standpoint I am excited. It'll for sure make Zergs stay of their toes in early game as it opens up a whole of pushes. Also it is no secret that JB wants to promote mech, these new tanky units will help tank some of that massive damage the toss army puts out similarly to Marauders but they do bonus light damage.
-Warhound: I don't really have an opinion frankly, havent decided if i approve or disapprove yet.
-Widow Mine: Same as above, also removes deathball as they take supply and cant to immediate damage.
Battlecruiser speed ability: Biggest change for TvP in my opinion, it gives the Terran a powerhouse in late game. You use the speed boost to drain energy in preparation for the battle to not only get to the battle quicker but to also nullify any feedbacks. Needless to say i think this upgrade will play a huge role
Battle Hellion - that doesn't feel like a real new unit. It could be good if it was more different from fast hellion ; but right now it's not really interesting.
Warhound - enjoy your mechanical 1a move marauder.
Widow Mines - they are very effective defensively and will effectively shut down all harass, thus making your deathball way stronger. That and both reusing the BW unit and implementing something new are fine by me, bu ripping off BW with a different name and making the unit less interesting in the process is just plain bad.
Battlecruiser ability - another useless energy dump for feedback, just like strike cannons. Doesn't fix the main problem of BC's : they suck at actually fighting.
As much as I like the protoss and zerg ideas, I feel that Blizzard are seriously fucking up with terran. Especially with every new unit being shown as a counter to tanks.
very narrow minded. If you know anything about this game. One of there biggest problems (terrans) is thier inability to retreat there expensive units. Protoss have FF to save expensive units/Recall works same way, Fungal halts any persuing army. Terran have nothing that can be used. Terran will still be weak in this area. This ability will help bcs to be able to retreat. Sure Bc's can be fedbacked but they need some type of weakness.
I'd say one of the biggest issues to BC/Raven compositions is the transition. It's very hard to switch tech from a Bio or even Mech heavy opener to Air play. There's also the issue of upgrade compatability. It requires a lot of time and preparation to slowly transition to Air without being killed off during the process.
Now the issue I have with your point about Feedback is that Terran High-Tech already has a variety of counters. Voidrays were meant to be the counter to BC's, while Blink Stalkers perform decently as well. Similarly Thors run into the same issue as they can be Feedbacked. The unit was also meant to be countered by Voidrays but no Protoss ever gets them against Thors, as Immortals/HT and standard Gateway units do well against them. It just makes HT provide too much of a Soft-Counter to many of Terran's energy based units - Terrans currently have 6 (Banshee, Medivac, Ghost, Thor, BC, Raven).
On July 10 2012 23:31 Velr wrote: It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
The balance team certainly doesn't see it like that. Hence terrans getting facerolled and nerfed anytime something was a little cost efficient...
LOL, what a ridiculous whine, making it seem like terran has always had the short end of the stick for no reason. Maybe because the race has been on the top since the beginning for almost every month until the last couple months, with a time there were 20 terrans in Code S? Almost every nerf was deserved, things like blue flame hellions destroying mineral lines in seconds and ghosts destroying everything were not "a little cost efficient".
On July 10 2012 12:30 CursOr wrote: Gateway units early game are never really a threat to 5 bunkers or 7 spines.
Dumbest statement of the year. "Barracks units early game are never really a threat to 7 cannons."
Five bunkers cost half what seven spines or seven cannons do, provided you already have units to man them, and can be salvaged if you find you don't need them.
On July 10 2012 23:31 Velr wrote: It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
The balance team certainly doesn't see it like that. Hence terrans getting facerolled and nerfed anytime something was a little cost efficient...
Except he is telling the truth. Gateway units does not pose a threat to 5 bunkers (of course with units) or 7 spines. And you are wrong. Barracks units with stim (you can get it early) poses a threat to 7 cannons. With 7 cannons early, P wouldn't have much of a force at that time. And no, I'm not favoring P, just stating the truth.
On July 14 2012 13:25 Glockateer wrote: TvT is regarded as the best mirror matchup but apparently it is "too boring" for the Blizzard dev team.
On July 10 2012 12:30 CursOr wrote: Gateway units early game are never really a threat to 5 bunkers or 7 spines.
Dumbest statement of the year. "Barracks units early game are never really a threat to 7 cannons."
On July 10 2012 23:31 Velr wrote: It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
The balance team certainly doesn't see it like that. Hence terrans getting facerolled and nerfed anytime something was a little cost efficient...
Except he is telling the truth. Gateway units does not pose a threat to 5 bunkers (of course with units) or 7 spines. And you are wrong. Barracks units with stim (you can get it early) poses a threat to 7 cannons. With 7 cannons early, P wouldn't have much of a force at that time. And no, I'm not favoring P, just stating the truth.
with 7 spines you would still need speedlings or roaches to support or they wouldnt stop gateway units purely. same thing for the cannons vs terran. bunkers are the only static defense that costs food, and im pretty sure by the "early stim(2 minutes and 50 seconds)" the protoss is supposed to have units by then. ridiculous protoss bias if you cant see any of this.
On July 10 2012 12:30 CursOr wrote: Gateway units early game are never really a threat to 5 bunkers or 7 spines.
Dumbest statement of the year. "Barracks units early game are never really a threat to 7 cannons."
Five bunkers cost half what seven spines or seven cannons do, provided you already have units to man them, and can be salvaged if you find you don't need them.
"provided you have units to man them" = not counting the cost it takes to fill them and spines that are left over tend to be moved to expansions late game to protect against drops, so hardly a good example. its ridiculous that you look at three completely different mechanics and try to compare them.
On July 14 2012 13:25 Glockateer wrote: TvT is regarded as the best mirror matchup but apparently it is "too boring" for the Blizzard dev team.
On July 10 2012 12:30 CursOr wrote: Gateway units early game are never really a threat to 5 bunkers or 7 spines.
Dumbest statement of the year. "Barracks units early game are never really a threat to 7 cannons."
On July 10 2012 23:31 Velr wrote: It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
The balance team certainly doesn't see it like that. Hence terrans getting facerolled and nerfed anytime something was a little cost efficient...
Except he is telling the truth. Gateway units does not pose a threat to 5 bunkers (of course with units) or 7 spines. And you are wrong. Barracks units with stim (you can get it early) poses a threat to 7 cannons. With 7 cannons early, P wouldn't have much of a force at that time. And no, I'm not favoring P, just stating the truth.
with 7 spines you would still need speedlings or roaches to support or they wouldnt stop gateway units purely. same thing for the cannons vs terran. bunkers are the only static defense that costs food, and im pretty sure by the "early stim(2 minutes and 50 seconds)" the protoss is supposed to have units by then. ridiculous protoss bias if you cant see any of this.
On July 10 2012 12:30 CursOr wrote: Gateway units early game are never really a threat to 5 bunkers or 7 spines.
Dumbest statement of the year. "Barracks units early game are never really a threat to 7 cannons."
Five bunkers cost half what seven spines or seven cannons do, provided you already have units to man them, and can be salvaged if you find you don't need them.
"provided you have units to man them" = not counting the cost it takes to fill them and spines that are left over tend to be moved to expansions late game to protect against drops, so hardly a good example. its ridiculous that you look at three completely different mechanics and try to compare them.
No he won't. P units are expensive, with 7 cannons you'll only have sentries, which does not matter since marines and maruders are more ranged than roaches (which you can hold of with many cannons and ff). Either you're just saying things for the sake of saying things or you don't know how P works, in which case, you shouldn't have commented. I play all races BTW.
On July 14 2012 17:38 pOnarreT wrote: No he won't. P units are expensive, with 7 cannons you'll only have sentries, which does not matter since marines and maruders are more ranged than roaches (which you can hold of with many cannons and ff). Either you're just saying things for the sake of saying things or you don't know how P works, in which case, you shouldn't have commented. I play all races BTW.
Besides the fact that there is no protoss retarded enough to build 7 cannons and hope it will help to stop ~50 marines, your statements are pretty legit, sir.
On July 14 2012 17:38 pOnarreT wrote: No he won't. P units are expensive, with 7 cannons you'll only have sentries, which does not matter since marines and maruders are more ranged than roaches (which you can hold of with many cannons and ff). Either you're just saying things for the sake of saying things or you don't know how P works, in which case, you shouldn't have commented. I play all races BTW.
Besides the fact that there is no protoss retarded enough to build 7 cannons and hope it will help to stop ~50 marines, your statements are pretty legit, sir.
The 7 cannons was not my idea lol. I just expanded on what they were discussing.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
- Overall Zerg has moved from being a passive, sit-back and macro race, to a more in your face aggressive, swarming playstyle.
The issue with the thinking here is that Zerg doesn't have to be the aggressor. Zerg is a macro race and when I play Zerg I'd much rather get more ahead economically than trying to outright kill in the midgame. It's a sit-back race and macro race because it pays to play that way if you want to win. If they Zerg to be more aggressive they are going to have to give it incentive to be the attacker. At the same time this would be have be balanced, because you can't allow the best macro race to also have the best aggression/punishment.
Thats a completely onesided way to look at it, terran and protoss does have tools to play macro games aswell, just because the current metagame dosen't encourage terran and protoss players to go for the macro game dosen't mean they can't. Zerg allins and aggressive options are probably just as strong, just not as developed / out of meta.
On July 14 2012 13:25 Glockateer wrote: TvT is regarded as the best mirror matchup but apparently it is "too boring" for the Blizzard dev team.
On July 10 2012 12:30 CursOr wrote: Gateway units early game are never really a threat to 5 bunkers or 7 spines.
Dumbest statement of the year. "Barracks units early game are never really a threat to 7 cannons."
On July 10 2012 23:31 Velr wrote: It's actually kinda ridiculous how overpowered Terran units have to be to fight against "this" and still maintain a chance to win ^^.
The balance team certainly doesn't see it like that. Hence terrans getting facerolled and nerfed anytime something was a little cost efficient...
Except he is telling the truth. Gateway units does not pose a threat to 5 bunkers (of course with units) or 7 spines. And you are wrong. Barracks units with stim (you can get it early) poses a threat to 7 cannons. With 7 cannons early, P wouldn't have much of a force at that time. And no, I'm not favoring P, just stating the truth.
with 7 spines you would still need speedlings or roaches to support or they wouldnt stop gateway units purely. same thing for the cannons vs terran. bunkers are the only static defense that costs food, and im pretty sure by the "early stim(2 minutes and 50 seconds)" the protoss is supposed to have units by then. ridiculous protoss bias if you cant see any of this.
On July 14 2012 16:48 Severedevil wrote:
On July 14 2012 13:25 Glockateer wrote:
On July 10 2012 12:30 CursOr wrote: Gateway units early game are never really a threat to 5 bunkers or 7 spines.
Dumbest statement of the year. "Barracks units early game are never really a threat to 7 cannons."
Five bunkers cost half what seven spines or seven cannons do, provided you already have units to man them, and can be salvaged if you find you don't need them.
"provided you have units to man them" = not counting the cost it takes to fill them and spines that are left over tend to be moved to expansions late game to protect against drops, so hardly a good example. its ridiculous that you look at three completely different mechanics and try to compare them.
No he won't. P units are expensive, with 7 cannons you'll only have sentries, which does not matter since marines and maruders are more ranged than roaches (which you can hold of with many cannons and ff). Either you're just saying things for the sake of saying things or you don't know how P works, in which case, you shouldn't have commented. I play all races BTW.
So you're proposing protoss should be able to stop everything with 7 cannons? With no unit support? Well in that case im gonna stop right here because theres clearly no point.
After reading this I'm not sure I even want to get into the beta, god this reasoning is so very sad
Why do they balance it out for casuals when it's a niche game where most players copy the pros regardless
Oh why o why blizzard, this "stale" tvt is the thing I think is the single most well designed matchup in sc2
I dont see why zerg should be able to be THAT in your face and how that works if hydra speed is hivetech...
Mothership core was cool untill I heard this reasoning, as many others have said in this thread: there exists ALOT of builds to pressure people on the pro level and on the noob level (if not even more?)
blizzard, dont make your stocks drop lower when youre about to get sold dammnit LISTEN to the community, most of the posters ideas in this thread seems better and more reasonable to me. They are removign the carrier after it has found a purpose as a lategame PvZ unit while complaining about stargate being underutillized...
On July 14 2012 18:39 Iplaythings wrote: After reading this I'm not sure I even want to get into the beta, god this reasoning is so very sad
Why do they balance it out for casuals when it's a niche game where most players copy the pros regardless
Oh why o why blizzard, this "stale" tvt is the thing I think is the single most well designed matchup in sc2
I dont see why zerg should be able to be THAT in your face and how that works if hydra speed is hivetech...
Mothership core was cool untill I heard this reasoning, as many others have said in this thread: there exists ALOT of builds to pressure people on the pro level and on the noob level (if not even more?)
blizzard, dont make your stocks drop lower when youre about to get sold dammnit LISTEN to the community, most of the posters ideas in this thread seems better and more reasonable to me. They are removign the carrier after it has found a purpose as a lategame PvZ unit while complaining about stargate being underutillized...
I dont even.. what the heck?
Honestly it's almost like Dustin Browder is losing the real core of Starcraft. When I read that part on his view of TVT my jaw nearly dropped. Like I've typed in other post TVT tank lines are almost the symbol of what starcraft is all about regardless what some people might find it boring. By tinkering with is just silly.
Blizzard has shown time and time again that they think tanks are bad for the game. In their opinion tank lines are actually boring. This point of theirs is further confirmed by the 3 supply cost in wol, and the increased number of hard counters present.
On July 14 2012 18:39 Iplaythings wrote: After reading this I'm not sure I even want to get into the beta, god this reasoning is so very sad
Why do they balance it out for casuals when it's a niche game where most players copy the pros regardless
Oh why o why blizzard, this "stale" tvt is the thing I think is the single most well designed matchup in sc2
I dont see why zerg should be able to be THAT in your face and how that works if hydra speed is hivetech...
Mothership core was cool untill I heard this reasoning, as many others have said in this thread: there exists ALOT of builds to pressure people on the pro level and on the noob level (if not even more?)
blizzard, dont make your stocks drop lower when youre about to get sold dammnit LISTEN to the community, most of the posters ideas in this thread seems better and more reasonable to me. They are removign the carrier after it has found a purpose as a lategame PvZ unit while complaining about stargate being underutillized...
I dont even.. what the heck?
Honestly it's almost like Dustin Browder is losing the real core of Starcraft. When I read that part on his view of TVT my jaw nearly dropped. Like I've typed in other post TVT tank lines are almost the symbol of what starcraft is all about regardless what some people might find it boring. By tinkering with is just silly.
I don' think that long, drawn-out tank battles are the real core of Starcraft. There were some big, long tank fights in BW and even some in SC2, when I think of Starcraft, I don't think of long-winded tank battles.
In any case, one has to accept that a new game which is based on the franchise (and not just a remake of it) cannot provide anything the old game does. Different aspects are getting more importance, others less.
On July 14 2012 18:39 Iplaythings wrote: After reading this I'm not sure I even want to get into the beta, god this reasoning is so very sad
Why do they balance it out for casuals when it's a niche game where most players copy the pros regardless
Oh why o why blizzard, this "stale" tvt is the thing I think is the single most well designed matchup in sc2
I dont see why zerg should be able to be THAT in your face and how that works if hydra speed is hivetech...
Mothership core was cool untill I heard this reasoning, as many others have said in this thread: there exists ALOT of builds to pressure people on the pro level and on the noob level (if not even more?)
blizzard, dont make your stocks drop lower when youre about to get sold dammnit LISTEN to the community, most of the posters ideas in this thread seems better and more reasonable to me. They are removign the carrier after it has found a purpose as a lategame PvZ unit while complaining about stargate being underutillized...
I dont even.. what the heck?
Honestly it's almost like Dustin Browder is losing the real core of Starcraft. When I read that part on his view of TVT my jaw nearly dropped. Like I've typed in other post TVT tank lines are almost the symbol of what starcraft is all about regardless what some people might find it boring. By tinkering with is just silly.
I don' think that long, drawn-out tank battles are the real core of Starcraft. There were some big, long tank fights in BW and even some in SC2, when I think of Starcraft, I don't think of long-winded tank battles.
In any case, one has to accept that a new game which is based on the franchise (and not just a remake of it) cannot provide anything the old game does. Different aspects are getting more importance, others less.
But not even in sc2 there's "long winded tank lines" anymore. There are strong tank positioning still but it seems like we're moving away from that in HOTS.
On July 14 2012 18:39 Iplaythings wrote: After reading this I'm not sure I even want to get into the beta, god this reasoning is so very sad
Why do they balance it out for casuals when it's a niche game where most players copy the pros regardless
Oh why o why blizzard, this "stale" tvt is the thing I think is the single most well designed matchup in sc2
I dont see why zerg should be able to be THAT in your face and how that works if hydra speed is hivetech...
Mothership core was cool untill I heard this reasoning, as many others have said in this thread: there exists ALOT of builds to pressure people on the pro level and on the noob level (if not even more?)
blizzard, dont make your stocks drop lower when youre about to get sold dammnit LISTEN to the community, most of the posters ideas in this thread seems better and more reasonable to me. They are removign the carrier after it has found a purpose as a lategame PvZ unit while complaining about stargate being underutillized...
I dont even.. what the heck?
Honestly it's almost like Dustin Browder is losing the real core of Starcraft. When I read that part on his view of TVT my jaw nearly dropped. Like I've typed in other post TVT tank lines are almost the symbol of what starcraft is all about regardless what some people might find it boring. By tinkering with is just silly.
I don' think that long, drawn-out tank battles are the real core of Starcraft. There were some big, long tank fights in BW and even some in SC2, when I think of Starcraft, I don't think of long-winded tank battles.
In any case, one has to accept that a new game which is based on the franchise (and not just a remake of it) cannot provide anything the old game does. Different aspects are getting more importance, others less.
But not even in sc2 there's "long winded tank lines" anymore. There are strong tank positioning still but it seems like we're moving away from that in HOTS.
I think one can tolerate the de facto removal of long tank battles if we get more exciting things to see. I guess that not many viewers like to witness how both opponents set up their tank lines and how the game develops in the next minutes with virtually no fight since no-one wants to attack the other one.
I remember an SC2 game (some month old) which I found interesting how both terrans tried to get the upper hand while both sat on their tank lines in siege mode and tried to gain vision with vikings. But I am glad that one doesn't see that too often.
Of course the game should feel like Starcraft, but that is a moving target. HotS will probably set a new tone for Starcraft matches, fleshing out the style introduced with WoL.
On July 14 2012 12:55 Griffith` wrote: thanks for the interview ^_^ just saved me $50 !
My thoughts exactly. Sadly i spent 90 bucks on d3 already. Boring and unworthy sucessor to d2, plus the fact that the system makes no sense at all. Spent 12 years waiting for WoW diablo edition.
so true. i wont buy a blizzard game ever again -.- the interview already hints that mr destructible rocks has no idea what he is talking about
omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
On July 14 2012 18:07 thezanursic wrote: - HotS will likely release 1 month after the beta ends.
That would be stupid.
It's a trend blizzard has been following, I believe starting with Diablo 3. I'm sure what he meant was that if there isn't anything gamebreaking during the beta period, which could last months, releasing it a month after isn't a bad idea. Let's see what happens.
On July 14 2012 19:59 KuKri wrote: omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
This is absolute rubbish, pvp is very close to being as strategical as TVT and there's quite a lot of stuff that can be done within pvz and pvt, please don't talk about this game when you don't even play it at a high level (i.e. masters)
On July 14 2012 19:59 KuKri wrote: omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
This is absolute rubbish, pvp is very close to being as strategical as TVT and there's quite a lot of stuff that can be done within pvz and pvt, please don't talk about this game when you don't even play it at a high level (i.e. masters)
I play as random in diamond, so what? Do you think they should design the game just for the top 2% of players? And for sure PvP is mostly build order wins and if it comes to the late game it's one big battle where one of the players loses all of his colossus and dies. Doesn't feel like an RTS game, rather like something Michael Bay would consider being RTS. Saying 'this is rubbish' doesn't make it better and is, by the way, about the worst argument to bring into a discussion. Anyway, my point was why they have to change an enjoyable feature of the game.
Understand that they most likely try to balance the game to fit for all the leagues. Unless it is severely broken, use your creative minds to make new strategies instead of making excuses to why things won't work when it hasn't even been out yet. Looking at most pros who tend to stay on the top, they make jokes about balance issues, but if they didn't have that creativity in the first place, they wouldn't be there. Don't wish it would be easier, wish you were better.
On July 14 2012 19:59 KuKri wrote: omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
This is absolute rubbish, pvp is very close to being as strategical as TVT and there's quite a lot of stuff that can be done within pvz and pvt, please don't talk about this game when you don't even play it at a high level (i.e. masters)
I play as random in diamond, so what? Do you think they should design the game just for the top 2% of players? And for sure PvP is mostly build order wins and if it comes to the late game it's one big battle where one of the players loses all of his colossus and dies. Doesn't feel like an RTS game, rather like something Michael Bay would consider being RTS. Saying 'this is rubbish' doesn't make it better and is, by the way, about the worst argument to bring into a discussion. Anyway, my point was why they have to change an enjoyable feature of the game.
Late game pvp match up is the worst match up of the game. Deathball a+click vs Deathball a+click... I smile every time when i watch tod in pvp.
On July 14 2012 19:59 KuKri wrote: omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
This is absolute rubbish, pvp is very close to being as strategical as TVT and there's quite a lot of stuff that can be done within pvz and pvt, please don't talk about this game when you don't even play it at a high level (i.e. masters)
I play as random in diamond, so what? Do you think they should design the game just for the top 2% of players? And for sure PvP is mostly build order wins and if it comes to the late game it's one big battle where one of the players loses all of his colossus and dies. Doesn't feel like an RTS game, rather like something Michael Bay would consider being RTS. Saying 'this is rubbish' doesn't make it better and is, by the way, about the worst argument to bring into a discussion. Anyway, my point was why they have to change an enjoyable feature of the game.
Late game pvp match up is the worst match up of the game. Deathball a+click vs Deathball a+click... I smile every time when i watch tod in pvp.
I can win 100 pvp-late game with you. Not because im stronger than you, but because from what i see, u dont know nothing about pvp.
On July 14 2012 19:59 KuKri wrote: omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
This is absolute rubbish, pvp is very close to being as strategical as TVT and there's quite a lot of stuff that can be done within pvz and pvt, please don't talk about this game when you don't even play it at a high level (i.e. masters)
I play as random in diamond, so what? Do you think they should design the game just for the top 2% of players? And for sure PvP is mostly build order wins and if it comes to the late game it's one big battle where one of the players loses all of his colossus and dies. Doesn't feel like an RTS game, rather like something Michael Bay would consider being RTS. Saying 'this is rubbish' doesn't make it better and is, by the way, about the worst argument to bring into a discussion. Anyway, my point was why they have to change an enjoyable feature of the game.
Late game pvp match up is the worst match up of the game. Deathball a+click vs Deathball a+click... I smile every time when i watch tod in pvp.
I can win 100 pvp-late game with you. Not because im stronger than you, but because from what i see, u dont know nothing about pvp.
You gonna spread out your collosi into 4 groups, so amazing i almost shat my pants.
I don't get why they are so adamant on making mech OR bio work vs protoss. Too many strat possibilities is what screwed TvP for a long time beforehand... Make too many sentries? oops they went mech etc. Also it will be really hard to make both somewhat equal in strength. Because the immortal already exists they have to make this super ugly warhound design (bonus vs mechanical, ie "we want this only for TvT and TvP") just to give mech a chance. At the same time there is a huge risk that TvT will just become boring warhound wars, which seems one of the most boring units there is, from what i can tell you can't even aim the vs mechanical attack...
It would have been much easier and more elegant to make mech viable in TvT and TvZ and for example make air viable in TvP along with bio. TvP would be somewhat reverse of the TvP in BW where terran instead of protoss would go for either tier 1 units and abuse mobility and/or go for an ultimate lategame air army, in this case consisting of BC's and maybe some new unit. Instead stupid dustin browder is focussing entire HOTS terran improvement to make mech work in TvP, ie bio and air play get no new units at all and mech must be given 3 new units. This basically means bio and air play get nerfed because the other races DO get new units to use against this.. the new mech also looks boring as hell being centered around two abilityless and slow units: battlehellion and warhound.. Imo they need to completely revamp what they are trying to do with terran in HOTS. Throw away the stupid goal of making mech a must in TvP (iconic reasons don't count for the carrier why let them count for mech TvP??) and just let mech work in the other matchups and give all lines of play a new (support) unit. If they are so intent on fixing mech at least make it interesting, for example one problem with mech now is that the medivac is balanced to fit with bio styles. As a result it sucks for mech play as you got a slow, vulnerable dropship that can't heal. Give the medivac a repair ability or make one of the new mech units biological for example just so mech can use some cool dropplay too.
Dont you think that widow mine will be too easy to counter? Imagine situation there are 5mines and all you need to do to counter them is to send 5zerlings(125minerals), thats too easy isnt it? They should make it as an upgrade for helions xD
The thing with the TvT stalemate is something encountered in low leagues. From bronze to plat nobody really wants/knows how to break lines. Everyone is scared to loose all there units. This often ends in an 40:00-100:00 minute TvT with mass viking bc. Thats why back in gold league some months ago i started playing Iechioic style, i was sooo bored of TvT. I mean yeah watching the good guys playing it is beautiful and inspirational, but siting there with your 10 tanks and waiting for his 10 tanks to do something... Still its bad reasoning since I don´t care at all whats good for my play or the play of other low leaguers... WE WANT ESPORTS.
On July 14 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote: I don't get why they are so adamant on making mech OR bio work vs protoss. Too many strat possibilities is what screwed TvP for a long time beforehand... Make too many sentries? oops they went mech etc. Also it will be really hard to make both somewhat equal in strength. Because the immortal already exists they have to make this super ugly warhound design (bonus vs mechanical, ie "we want this only for TvT and TvP") just to give mech a chance. At the same time there is a huge risk that TvT will just become boring warhound wars, which seems one of the most boring units there is, from what i can tell you can't even aim the vs mechanical attack...
It would have been much easier and more elegant to make mech viable in TvT and TvZ and for example make air viable in TvP along with bio. TvP would be somewhat reverse of the TvP in BW where terran instead of protoss would go for either tier 1 units and abuse mobility and/or go for an ultimate lategame air army, in this case consisting of BC's and maybe some new unit. Instead stupid dustin browder is focussing entire HOTS terran improvement to make mech work in TvP, ie bio and air play get no new units at all and mech must be given 3 new units. This basically means bio and air play get nerfed because the other races DO get new units to use against this.. the new mech also looks boring as hell being centered around two abilityless and slow units: battlehellion and warhound.. Imo they need to completely revamp what they are trying to do with terran in HOTS. Throw away the stupid goal of making mech a must in TvP (iconic reasons don't count for the carrier why let them count for mech TvP??) and just let mech work in the other matchups and give all lines of play a new (support) unit. If they are so intent on fixing mech at least make it interesting, for example one problem with mech now is that the medivac is balanced to fit with bio styles. As a result it sucks for mech play as you got a slow, vulnerable dropship that can't heal. Give the medivac a repair ability or make one of the new mech units biological for example just so mech can use some cool dropplay too.
your point is complaining that the units you get dont counter everything?... seems legit. and drop play with mech wont work even of the medivac repaired. simply because mech's greatest strength is that it'll beat everything on the ground cost for cost in 200/200 maxed situations. if you attempt to split them up might as well just go MMMVG because that'll be way more effective.
On July 14 2012 19:59 KuKri wrote: omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
This is absolute rubbish, pvp is very close to being as strategical as TVT and there's quite a lot of stuff that can be done within pvz and pvt, please don't talk about this game when you don't even play it at a high level (i.e. masters)
you must be joking. pvp late game if you are not dead by then just turns into archon colossus vs archon colossus + its the only time protoss gets how terran feels. because they have to make sure their units (archons/colossus, but in terran's case bio) are standing on different "lines" so they dont get completely smashed by colossus attack. but i agree that every other matchup is pretty strategic as well. just your view of PvP is horribly skewed. (i play at mid masters for SEA and NA if its THAT important to you.)
On July 14 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote: I don't get why they are so adamant on making mech OR bio work vs protoss. Too many strat possibilities is what screwed TvP for a long time beforehand... Make too many sentries? oops they went mech etc. Also it will be really hard to make both somewhat equal in strength. Because the immortal already exists they have to make this super ugly warhound design (bonus vs mechanical, ie "we want this only for TvT and TvP") just to give mech a chance. At the same time there is a huge risk that TvT will just become boring warhound wars, which seems one of the most boring units there is, from what i can tell you can't even aim the vs mechanical attack...
It would have been much easier and more elegant to make mech viable in TvT and TvZ and for example make air viable in TvP along with bio. TvP would be somewhat reverse of the TvP in BW where terran instead of protoss would go for either tier 1 units and abuse mobility and/or go for an ultimate lategame air army, in this case consisting of BC's and maybe some new unit. Instead stupid dustin browder is focussing entire HOTS terran improvement to make mech work in TvP, ie bio and air play get no new units at all and mech must be given 3 new units. This basically means bio and air play get nerfed because the other races DO get new units to use against this.. the new mech also looks boring as hell being centered around two abilityless and slow units: battlehellion and warhound.. Imo they need to completely revamp what they are trying to do with terran in HOTS. Throw away the stupid goal of making mech a must in TvP (iconic reasons don't count for the carrier why let them count for mech TvP??) and just let mech work in the other matchups and give all lines of play a new (support) unit. If they are so intent on fixing mech at least make it interesting, for example one problem with mech now is that the medivac is balanced to fit with bio styles. As a result it sucks for mech play as you got a slow, vulnerable dropship that can't heal. Give the medivac a repair ability or make one of the new mech units biological for example just so mech can use some cool dropplay too.
your point is complaining that the units you get dont counter everything?... seems legit. and drop play with mech wont work even of the medivac repaired. simply because mech's greatest strength is that it'll beat everything on the ground cost for cost in 200/200 maxed situations. if you attempt to split them up might as well just go MMMVG because that'll be way more effective.
On July 14 2012 19:59 KuKri wrote: omg TvT is the only STRATEGICAL matchup besides ZvT, everything else is just blob vs blob. If they'd just redesign Protoss, which is just too deathbally, a-clicky and boring, we'd have a really great game.
This is absolute rubbish, pvp is very close to being as strategical as TVT and there's quite a lot of stuff that can be done within pvz and pvt, please don't talk about this game when you don't even play it at a high level (i.e. masters)
you must be joking. pvp late game if you are not dead by then just turns into archon colossus vs archon colossus + its the only time protoss gets how terran feels. because they have to make sure their units (archons/colossus, but in terran's case bio) are standing on different "lines" so they dont get completely smashed by colossus attack. but i agree that every other matchup is pretty strategic as well. just your view of PvP is horribly skewed. (i play at mid masters for SEA and NA if its THAT important to you.)
His complaint is that if you get denied scouting and you build something that can fight bio and they go mech you are screwed and vice-versa. If you want an example of this go look at PvP lately. There are tons of openings which prevent the game from usually hitting a serious macro stage, which is good because multi base PvP is boring but its sitll a problem.
On July 10 2012 12:34 Disengaged wrote: If they would fucking work on the Carrier then it would be fine. But no, thats to hard for them.
Ok, argument, why carrier should be in the game?
Because the Carrier is the only Protoss unit that has high single target DPS. Carrier is THE snipe unit in mass engagements.VRays need to charge, Immortals lack range, DTs are to fragile.
Carriers niche is sniping units mid- engagement with incredible DPS, Tempests iche is sniping units with incredible Range
My mindset going into the beta is that i don't care if x is in and y is out as long as hots feels like it's a better game. If you can play two or three styles in each match up i'll be happy. Right now PvP late game is all about the colossus but what if you could play airtoss vs gateway as a legit strategy that would improve the game.
On July 14 2012 22:27 archonOOid wrote: My mindset going into the beta is that i don't care if x is in and y is out as long as hots feels like it's a better game. If you can play two or three styles in each match up i'll be happy. Right now PvP late game is all about the colossus but what if you could play airtoss vs gateway as a legit strategy that would improve the game.
I'd be fine with most things, but a must- do for me is to remove or reduce the idea of 'assymetrical balance' as much as possible.
It makes me really sad they don`t see the beauty of tanks vs tanks. Watching players fight for inches of position is really cool to watch. The damn warhound makes me facepalm
On July 14 2012 21:32 Michaels wrote: Dont you think that widow mine will be too easy to counter? Imagine situation there are 5mines and all you need to do to counter them is to send 5zerlings(125minerals), thats too easy isnt it? They should make it as an upgrade for helions xD
The stupid thing of these mines is that they can jump onto air units. How is a zerg ever going to find out that there are mines planted in a certain location ? How is the zerg going to be able to kill these mines without them jumping on our units? They were invisible when burrowed right? And if an overseer comes to check if there are mines, it'll jump on him. Would fungal growth work on them? Probably not... And even if it work, to what extent do they jump on targets?
Just give us the spider mine. It's so much cooler, makes more sense and promotes just as much micro. It's also a lot more massable, doesn't cost supply and will give the unit it's on another cool use.
On July 14 2012 22:58 Lunit wrote: Haha I feel so bad for you Terran players. If they end up cutting the widow mine then you get nothing new basically. Poor poor Terran.
Battle Hellion and Warhound are pretty cool units, but I don't think Blizzard recons that'd be enough to sell the game, they basically fail to please 1/3 (closer to 1/4 atm sadly) of their playerbase. They won't cut the Widow Mine without replacing it with something else.
Also, I fail too see how Zerg units get cool upgrades (Burrow Charge / Hydra Speed) and not a single P/T unit gets a boost.
Reapers upgrading some shit like building attack for 100/100 to become more viable, Vikings getting an upgrade to become more powerful Also, I dislike the low number of anti- air AOE attacks we have.
On July 14 2012 22:58 Lunit wrote: Haha I feel so bad for you Terran players. If they end up cutting the widow mine then you get nothing new basically. Poor poor Terran.
Battle Hellion and Warhound are pretty cool units, but I don't think Blizzard recons that'd be enough to sell the game, they basically fail to please 1/3 (closer to 1/4 atm sadly) of their playerbase. They won't cut the Widow Mine without replacing it with something else.
Also, I fail too see how Zerg units get cool upgrades (Burrow Charge / Hydra Speed) and not a single P/T unit gets a boost.
Reapers upgrading some shit like building attack for 100/100 to become more viable, Vikings getting an upgrade to become more powerful Also, I dislike the low number of anti- air AOE attacks we have.
Why don't they do womething with that?
You can't honestly like the warhound? It's the shittiest design ever. Auto missles? And I don't play terran, but apparently a lot of people liked the strategic play, and now this easy mode unit comes into play.
It's just an A-move unit with nothing interesting about it and to top it off, it has a ridiculous japanese (or w/e) mech kind of model. Goliath? Bad ass. This? Nothing near it.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
How about.. they pay attention to the carrier and at least TRY to tweak it in some way just like they've done with practically every other unit with all 3 races? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there's been a single patch for the Carrier. It just feels to me like one of the most iconic units has been ignored and they want to trash it out? That's just betrayal to the whole game...
On July 14 2012 22:58 Lunit wrote: Haha I feel so bad for you Terran players. If they end up cutting the widow mine then you get nothing new basically. Poor poor Terran.
Battle Hellion and Warhound are pretty cool units, but I don't think Blizzard recons that'd be enough to sell the game, they basically fail to please 1/3 (closer to 1/4 atm sadly) of their playerbase. They won't cut the Widow Mine without replacing it with something else.
Also, I fail too see how Zerg units get cool upgrades (Burrow Charge / Hydra Speed) and not a single P/T unit gets a boost.
Reapers upgrading some shit like building attack for 100/100 to become more viable, Vikings getting an upgrade to become more powerful Also, I dislike the low number of anti- air AOE attacks we have.
Why don't they do womething with that?
Warhound battle helions do't solve the fundamental problems with mech and why people prefer bio: immobility and shit anti air.
Anyway, blizzard with the current state of sc2, hots and d3 is basically screaming "don't buy our stuff, we have no clue!"
I think warhound battle hellion is a good start, though the weak anti-air is still a problem. Imo the main reason why mech don't work against protoss is due to immortals and chargelots. Immortals obliterate tanks and take no dmg, while tanks kill your army faster than chargelots.
With battlehellions, it gives a good buffer as a tank units against chargelots, and warhound's haywire may be just the tool mech needs to deal with immortals and possibly even colossus. Since haywire is a spell, it should bypass immortal's harden shield.
Also stalkers are way too dangerous in TvP if u go early mech without some sort of bio transition. And extremely weak against blink stalker harasses once you reach past 2 or 3 bases. Hopefully warhound will fix that as well with high mobility and great mechanical dps
unsure about TvZ, and new unit interaction may throw everything off anyway. Better off waiting for beta
Kinda looks like Terran is going to be the all Infantry army. 4-5 if you count the Thor The Little Tiny Infantry (marine) The Little Infantry (marauder) The Medium Sized Infantry (battle hellions) The Big Infantry (Warhound) The Great Big Infantry (Thor)
Be fun to have them all lined up in a row from very small, small, big, and even bigger. I guess 'infantry' is a stretch/unfair as the last three are BattleMech, but the attack rather looks the same except BIGGER. and BULKIER.
On July 15 2012 00:42 Falling wrote: Has this been posted anywhere? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04CaUCl9mU Kinda looks like Terran is going to be the all Infantry army. 4-5 if you count the Thor The Little Tiny Infantry (marine) The Little Infantry (marauder) The Medium Sized Infantry (battle hellions) The Big Infantry (Warhound) The Great Big Infantry (Thor)
Be fun to have them all lined up in a row from very small, small, big, and even bigger. I guess 'infantry' is a stretch/unfair as the last three are BattleMech, but the attack rather looks the same except BIGGER. and BULKIER.
Anyone else notice how SLOW the hellion are? I mean, the battle hellion are slow but the regular hellion are noticeably slower than their wind of liberty counterpart. Which is INCREDIBLY stupid imo. Hellion are going to be so slow that it will be ineffiecient to drop them and tanks has always been ineffiecient to drop as well due to warping in 5 zealot right in front of it and it dead so I imagine TvP is just going to be terran massing up a death ball and 1-A. Due to mech lacking any form of map control, the widowmine will have to stay in the game but even then I think mech is going to be incredibly boring.
On July 15 2012 00:42 Falling wrote: Has this been posted anywhere? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04CaUCl9mU Kinda looks like Terran is going to be the all Infantry army. 4-5 if you count the Thor The Little Tiny Infantry (marine) The Little Infantry (marauder) The Medium Sized Infantry (battle hellions) The Big Infantry (Warhound) The Great Big Infantry (Thor)
Be fun to have them all lined up in a row from very small, small, big, and even bigger. I guess 'infantry' is a stretch/unfair as the last three are BattleMech, but the attack rather looks the same except BIGGER. and BULKIER.
Anyone else notice how SLOW the hellion are? I mean, the battle hellion are slow but the regular hellion are noticeably slower than their wind of liberty counterpart. Which is INCREDIBLY stupid imo. Hellion are going to be so slow that it will be ineffiecient to drop them and tanks has always been ineffiecient to drop as well due to warping in 5 zealot right in front of it and it dead so I imagine TvP is just going to be terran massing up a death ball and 1-A. Due to mech lacking any form of map control, the widowmine will have to stay in the game but even then I think mech is going to be incredibly boring.
I think the video they used normal speed instead of fastest, the tanks seems to attack too slow
On July 15 2012 00:42 Falling wrote: Has this been posted anywhere? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04CaUCl9mU Kinda looks like Terran is going to be the all Infantry army. 4-5 if you count the Thor The Little Tiny Infantry (marine) The Little Infantry (marauder) The Medium Sized Infantry (battle hellions) The Big Infantry (Warhound) The Great Big Infantry (Thor)
Be fun to have them all lined up in a row from very small, small, big, and even bigger. I guess 'infantry' is a stretch/unfair as the last three are BattleMech, but the attack rather looks the same except BIGGER. and BULKIER.
Anyone else notice how SLOW the hellion are? I mean, the battle hellion are slow but the regular hellion are noticeably slower than their wind of liberty counterpart. Which is INCREDIBLY stupid imo. Hellion are going to be so slow that it will be ineffiecient to drop them and tanks has always been ineffiecient to drop as well due to warping in 5 zealot right in front of it and it dead so I imagine TvP is just going to be terran massing up a death ball and 1-A. Due to mech lacking any form of map control, the widowmine will have to stay in the game but even then I think mech is going to be incredibly boring.
i think its because its on "normal" speed games are usually "fast" by default. i cant be 100% sure tho
On July 15 2012 00:42 Falling wrote: Has this been posted anywhere? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04CaUCl9mU Kinda looks like Terran is going to be the all Infantry army. 4-5 if you count the Thor The Little Tiny Infantry (marine) The Little Infantry (marauder) The Medium Sized Infantry (battle hellions) The Big Infantry (Warhound) The Great Big Infantry (Thor)
Be fun to have them all lined up in a row from very small, small, big, and even bigger. I guess 'infantry' is a stretch/unfair as the last three are BattleMech, but the attack rather looks the same except BIGGER. and BULKIER.
The funniest thing I see in all blizzard videos is how split up all their units are. I'm fairly if someone microed their marines in that video the battle hellion/warhound combo wouldnt have won that easily. Even in the battlereports they never make a big ball of units and just attack into their opponents since even with all the new units that just works better. This was the case with WoL also where there were some videos with colossus drops and such. Its almost as if there is a disconnect between how they want the game to be played and how it is actually played and they have no freakin clue as to why that is. So they just balance based on metagame due this instead of actually making some meaningful changes. I'm fairly sure this would be a different game if for instance the colossus was balanced such that colossus drops were more common.
On July 10 2012 13:41 thezanursic wrote: - If the beta comes out and the widow mine is still having issues, it will be most likely cut from the final game.
The only unit that could actually require micro is gonna be cut. I guess I'll be switching to zerg then.
You that think terran dosnt already have units that you can micro...? wtf...
[QUOTE]On July 10 2012 13:42 Digamma wrote: [QUOTE]On July 10 2012 13:32 yeastiality wrote: [QUOTE]On July 10 2012 12:15 Chaggi wrote: If widow mines are cut, what do Terrans have to look forward to?[/QUOTE]
- warhounds - reaper upgrade - battlecruiser upgrade - other stuff they haven't shown yet - terran has more concepts/units/upgrades than the other races already, since their 'expansion' was first and the per race expansions are a really gross idea[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] .............. sounds like the stupid "terran was imba first so zerg should be imba now" arguement except its "terran had more shit so it should have less now" [/QUOTE]
On July 15 2012 00:42 Falling wrote: Has this been posted anywhere? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04CaUCl9mU Kinda looks like Terran is going to be the all Infantry army. 4-5 if you count the Thor The Little Tiny Infantry (marine) The Little Infantry (marauder) The Medium Sized Infantry (battle hellions) The Big Infantry (Warhound) The Great Big Infantry (Thor)
Be fun to have them all lined up in a row from very small, small, big, and even bigger. I guess 'infantry' is a stretch/unfair as the last three are BattleMech, but the attack rather looks the same except BIGGER. and BULKIER.
The funniest thing I see in all blizzard videos is how split up all their units are. I'm fairly if someone microed their marines in that video the battle hellion/warhound combo wouldnt have won that easily. Even in the battlereports they never make a big ball of units and just attack into their opponents since even with all the new units that just works better. This was the case with WoL also where there were some videos with colossus drops and such. Its almost as if there is a disconnect between how they want the game to be played and how it is actually played and they have no freakin clue as to why that is. So they just balance based on metagame due this instead of actually making some meaningful changes. I'm fairly sure this would be a different game if for instance the colossus was balanced such that colossus drops were more common.
That battlereport means nothing.
The Marines didn't even have Stim or Combat shields, and I'm fairly sure that Mech army is of higher supply.
[QUOTE]On July 10 2012 14:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: [QUOTE]On July 10 2012 12:19 Lineridarz wrote: [QUOTE]On July 10 2012 12:04 Liquid`Jinro wrote: [QUOTE]- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point. [/QUOTE] ?????????????????????????????[/QUOTE] zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????[/QUOTE] Protoss has an insane amount of early game allins, wtf does he mean by passive. Protoss can either be more passive than a sedated sloth, or more aggro than a rabid monkey on PCP. Not as easy to play inbetween the two, but it's possible.
[QUOTE] I dont know if someone mentioned this before since i didnt read every single comment but anyways heres what Dustin actually said insted of "Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point." :
"The protoss also had difficulty pushing in the early game: they could either go all in or they can hide, because sentries are slow, zealots are slow. You can go pure stalker, surely, but when you move against zerg you better be sure you can win, because you are not coming home if you don’t: those sentries will be ran over and killed and that’s a lot of gas. So we feel that the recall ability on the mothership core gives the protoss the ability to take a chance – one chance – to be kind of aggressive and then pull the units back if it goes wrong." I guess he wants to engourage protoss early game aggression without having them to go all in.
Personally i fear that Tosses can now easily kill my early third without taking a risk, and oracles and tempests can be a pain in the ass too. Terran widow mines can be actually be very cost effective (currently they are 75/25) even tho they wouldnt do any splash damage to my units. Losing like 10 mutas to to 10 mines or 6 swarm hosts and 3 vipers to 9 mines dosnt sound very tempting to me. But instead of complaining im already trying to figure out what to do against this stuff. I also get very good units (and hydra speed <3) so no point complaining about anything.
For the terrans crying that they get only A-move units: You already have alot of microable units (more than other races obv) so how does few non microable units hurt you? Its not like you have to mass warhounds or anything like that, you can go bio vs P and make few warhounds to target colos and stalkers. Besides many terrans are currently complaining that P and Z are A-move races, now you can have that too if u want. Feel free to correct me about anything, but just dont hate cus thats not necessery.
[QUOTE]On July 15 2012 02:43 oskuboi wrote: [QUOTE]On July 10 2012 14:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: [QUOTE]On July 10 2012 12:19 Lineridarz wrote: [QUOTE]On July 10 2012 12:04 Liquid`Jinro wrote: [QUOTE]- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point. [/QUOTE] ?????????????????????????????[/QUOTE] zealots, sentries and stalkers suck against bio, i dont understand the ???????????????????????????????[/QUOTE] Protoss has an insane amount of early game allins, wtf does he mean by passive. Protoss can either be more passive than a sedated sloth, or more aggro than a rabid monkey on PCP. Not as easy to play inbetween the two, but it's possible.
[QUOTE] I dont know if someone mentioned this before since i didnt read every single comment but anyways heres what Dustin actually said insted of "Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point." :
"The protoss also had difficulty pushing in the early game: they could either go all in or they can hide, because sentries are slow, zealots are slow. You can go pure stalker, surely, but when you move against zerg you better be sure you can win, because you are not coming home if you don’t: those sentries will be ran over and killed and that’s a lot of gas. So we feel that the recall ability on the mothership core gives the protoss the ability to take a chance – one chance – to be kind of aggressive and then pull the units back if it goes wrong." I guess he wants to engourage protoss early game aggression without having them to go all in.
Personally i fear that Tosses can now easily kill my early third without taking a risk, and oracles and tempests can be a pain in the ass too. Terran widow mines can be actually be very cost effective (currently they are 75/25) even tho they wouldnt do any splash damage to my units. Losing like 10 mutas to to 10 mines or 6 swarm hosts and 3 vipers to 9 mines dosnt sound very tempting to me. But instead of complaining im already trying to figure out what to do against this stuff. I also get very good units (and hydra speed <3) so no point complaining about anything.
For the terrans crying that they get only A-move units: You already have alot of microable units (more than other races obv) so how does few non microable units hurt you? Its not like you have to mass warhounds or anything like that, you can go bio vs P and make few warhounds to target colos and stalkers. Besides many terrans are currently complaining that P and Z are A-move races, now you can have that too if u want. Feel free to correct me about anything, but just dont hate cus thats not necessery.[/QUOTE]
No race should have any units that by design are 'A-move' units without anything cool. Units like that atm:
Terran has the most micro- able units. You could call that a drawback of the Terran race, or a misdesign of the other two.
I'd rather see all races get interesting, cool new stuff that works best when micro'd and works pathetically when A-moved. The sad thing, however, out of 4 new units for P/Z, 2 of them are casters. Casters aren't A-move by deffinition. Tempest is only position, no much micro else, so are Swarm Hosts
So again, no units that really force a spread out engagement! Tempest by design draw the battle towards them by forcing a fight. Swarmhosts are silly and immobile units that just annoy the defender.
HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
On July 15 2012 00:42 Falling wrote: Has this been posted anywhere? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04CaUCl9mU Kinda looks like Terran is going to be the all Infantry army. 4-5 if you count the Thor The Little Tiny Infantry (marine) The Little Infantry (marauder) The Medium Sized Infantry (battle hellions) The Big Infantry (Warhound) The Great Big Infantry (Thor)
Be fun to have them all lined up in a row from very small, small, big, and even bigger. I guess 'infantry' is a stretch/unfair as the last three are BattleMech, but the attack rather looks the same except BIGGER. and BULKIER.
Anyone else notice how SLOW the hellion are? I mean, the battle hellion are slow but the regular hellion are noticeably slower than their wind of liberty counterpart. Which is INCREDIBLY stupid imo. Hellion are going to be so slow that it will be ineffiecient to drop them and tanks has always been ineffiecient to drop as well due to warping in 5 zealot right in front of it and it dead so I imagine TvP is just going to be terran massing up a death ball and 1-A. Due to mech lacking any form of map control, the widowmine will have to stay in the game but even then I think mech is going to be incredibly boring.
i think its because its on "normal" speed games are usually "fast" by default. i cant be 100% sure tho
I didnt look at the speed of the tank fire so I didnt notice it but I guess your right. It should be on normal. I was only looking at the speed of the marine but the marine didnt move much so it was hard to tell.
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
Kids these days? Without criticism, we would be living in a pile of shit, and there's already so much shit surrounding us.
What's there going to be good about the tempest? It needs spotters to abuse it's range. Apparently it's way too expensive for the amount of damage they're going to deliver. If you're using them for harrassing purposes, they're way too fragile to do anything (and too costly), the zerg will just make a few corruptors and they're dead. (Don't play terran, can't comment about tvp) And because they're so fragile, you're going to have to defend them, which means, they'll just be part of the deathball. Not to mention it's just an A-move unit with zero micro potential. How are you going to micro this slow ass motherfucker who has 22 range and shoots once every blue moon? If you're using it to attack across 2-3 screens, you can't effectively micro since you'd have to jump constantly between the two screens which is way too hard to do. And when you're using them from close up, i'm sure there are better units you'd want(and they're still slow as hell + attack incredibly slow).
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
People used to say the same about the Colossus. And guess what? It's as awful now as it was back at release.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
- Overall Zerg has moved from being a passive, sit-back and macro race, to a more in your face aggressive, swarming playstyle.
This guy simply can't be serious. Most zergs simply don't utilize the strengths of the race yet. Stephano is a prime example of someone who does. Zerg can't push? Are you kidding? Mass zerglings and roaches can and often overwhelm mid game defenses on their own. Throw in drops and its often a cakewalk.
Look at what Steph did today with MC at NASL.
Carrier
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
You'd keep the forgettable void ray that barely has a place left and which you've altered so often since its intro yet won't even try to improve the carrier but remove it despite how prominently it marks in the attention of the community? That's a damn shame and short sighted.
TBH I sometimes wonder if Dustin just wants to get rid of units his predecessor designed in BW. Keeping anything they did would be like admitting they did a better job than he can.
It reminds me of every time I have seen a new person step into a senior manager position in places I've worked. Regard anything that was done by their predecessor as bad, change as much as possible to differentiate themselves and justify why they got the role.
On July 15 2012 11:00 Aetherial wrote: TBH I sometimes wonder if Dustin just wants to get rid of units his predecessor designed in BW. Keeping anything they did would be like admitting they did a better job than he can.
It reminds me of every time I have seen a new person step into a senior manager position in places I've worked. Regard anything that was done by their predecessor as bad, change as much as possible to differentiate themselves and justify why they got the role.
His reply to the TL interviewer some time ago when asked about BW epic macro/map control games (can't remember his name): "BW is a great game, if you like it go play it".
Also I love how people say "SC2 IS A DIFFERENT GAME STOP COMPARING IT" yet all the fundamentals are the same; and over them are added new "cool" shit that contradict the initial philosophy and ruin the overall balance making the game worse.]
Blizzard's e-sport RTS monopoly is so strong that even if HotS is inferior and worse than BW and WOL people will still play it and love it, cheese/all-in all they way to GM and cheer for their favorite players
It is utterly impossible to not compare SC2 and BW. Blizzard did it and invited everyone else to do so when they made a sequel/re imagined game in teh SC universe. Anyone who parrots the 'don't compare' meme or even the 'go play BW' theme is being disingenuous. What if we didn't play BW so much anymore but WATCHED it avidly. What, am I supposed to just watch the same Proleague/OSL VODs on youtube from 2007-2012? Of course not, I want new matches, and thus we want better of SC2.
No game was perfect and had a lot of problems. Remember Diablo II it was not very good. Only when Lord of the Destruction came out it became better. Yes Diablo III isn't as good as we hoped. They will keep patching and keep adding more to it to get it better.
Even Starcraft BW wasn't even that great at first either. It took multiple patches to make it what it is today. People's memory is horrible. Yes Blizzard the company has humans making video games...So mistakes do happen and they will figure out new ways to make there games better.
Now for people not buying HotS because Diablo III...That is like saying EA released Madden 2011 and I am not going to buy Battlefield...Or Activision made iCarly video game so I am not playing Call of Duty
.
Stop fucking using the "give it time, it will get better" excuse. People are annoyed because instead of building on the success of the past games, they instead chose to remake everything only to make it worse. Blizz isnt making Starcraft or Diablo for the first time mind you. They've had so many years to analyze what made their games so good and yet failed to capitalize on that.
You know the saying "Dont reinvent the wheel"? Well it can be applied perfectly here. From wikipedia: "Reinventing the square wheel is the practice of unnecessarily engineering artifacts that provide functionality already provided by existing standard artifacts (reinventing the wheel) and ending up with a worse result than the standard (a square wheel)." This is what I feel when someone mentions SC2 or D3.
These are my thoughts regarding how SC2 (and D3 for that matter) turned out. Maybe HotS might make the game better but I'm not holding my breath.
On July 15 2012 11:00 Aetherial wrote: TBH I sometimes wonder if Dustin just wants to get rid of units his predecessor designed in BW. Keeping anything they did would be like admitting they did a better job than he can.
It reminds me of every time I have seen a new person step into a senior manager position in places I've worked. Regard anything that was done by their predecessor as bad, change as much as possible to differentiate themselves and justify why they got the role.
It absolutely blows my mind how much new stuff Zergs are getting, most of it potentially game-breaking. Zerg was already the strongest race in several areas, such as macro and mobility, now they'll also be the strongest in versatility and other areas. It's completely insane.
It's not about how many units we have, it's about the quality.
reaper raven battlecruiser carrier
4 of the least used units, none of which are getting any attention (give reaper healing is not incentive to build them)
and browder keeps complaining about the 'carrier argument', is his brain incapable of processing criticism about the colossus?
The BC is getting attention, with this speed ability. And the Carrier is getting attention by being cut.
By "getting attention" he means making them usable. BC speed boost for 100 energy is complete crap, it'll hardly change ther effectiveness at all.
I think they want to give terrans the option of draining them of energy so templars dont hard counter them for late game terran "death ball" as Browder calls it addition?
You know now that I'm thinking about it I wonder what tvt will look like now. Will it end up being Warhound vs Warhound widow mind match up and look like zvz bunch just clump up warhounds? lol
I really don't like that part giving Zerg a way to immediately kill their opponent after gaining an advantage from the mid-game. No race should be able to do that. It makes for a poor spectating experience.
Advantage should just allow them to push back and allow them further opportunities to gain advantage while leaving opponents with a window of time to strike back and reverse the situation.
i think what alot of people neglect about the widow mine is its going to cost supply.. to gain any significant map control you need at least >10 since they're slow and have a 10 second delay. Thats a lot of supply for to be taken up for map control when a terran army needs at much supply as possible to take on the faster reinforcement of warp mechanic and larvas.
Initally I was pretty sceptical about HotS. But now I'm just getting psyched. There so many possibilties to break entreched possiotions now. It's gonna be awesome :D
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
People used to say the same about the Colossus. And guess what? It's as awful now as it was back at release.
people also said baneling was shit and will never be made. same with stalkers
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
People used to say the same about the Colossus. And guess what? It's as awful now as it was back at release.
people also said baneling was shit and will never be made. same with stalkers
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
People used to say the same about the Colossus. And guess what? It's as awful now as it was back at release.
people also said baneling was shit and will never be made. same with stalkers
On July 16 2012 18:45 NukeD wrote: Quod ab initio vitiosum est, non potest tractu temporis convalescere.
Using Latin does not mean you can claim something without proper evidence. The e-sports success alone should be proof that SC2 cannot be that much "initio vitiosum".
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
People used to say the same about the Colossus. And guess what? It's as awful now as it was back at release.
people also said baneling was shit and will never be made. same with stalkers
That's because it's impossible to know how powerful a unit will be in the future. It is, however, completely possible to speculate about how interesting it's going to be, purely based on the design. It's not difficult to see that the Colossus is a boring a-move monstrosity without ever playing the game.
Curiously enough, people who use the "YOU DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO TURN OUT" argument never seem to have any positive examples of how a unit like the Tempest or the Warhound could prove to be interesting. The only thing they have is an appeal to their own ignorance.
Zerg - Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
- Overall Zerg has moved from being a passive, sit-back and macro race, to a more in your face aggressive, swarming playstyle.
This guy simply can't be serious. Most zergs simply don't utilize the strengths of the race yet. Stephano is a prime example of someone who does. Zerg can't push? Are you kidding? Mass zerglings and roaches can and often overwhelm mid game defenses on their own. Throw in drops and its often a cakewalk.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
You'd keep the forgettable void ray that barely has a place left and which you've altered so often since its intro yet won't even try to improve the carrier but remove it despite how prominently it marks in the attention of the community? That's a damn shame and short sighted.
I almost forgot Void Rays were in the game. People open Stargate so little these days. And Tempest is a silly unit that won't get much use.
I feel like the problem with sc2 is that you can each other way too easy. If a zerg in the midgame screws up an important fight, the terran or protoss just walks up to their natural or third and the game's lost. (just an example)
Because the game is so fast and everything deals so much DPS combined with the deathball types of fight, there's little room for coming back into a game. I still see dozens of games just being one fight and the game's over. (dozen of games in the recent NASL and TSL)
In broodwar it was just way harder to capitalize on one won fight. You gained small advantages and eventually the advantage was great enough to outright kill him or the enemy would just gg out. I think the main reasons again is because moving armies was way harder, armies delt way less damage per second. If I had 30 hydralisks at a toss his natural (in bw), only 10-15 can shoot at the same time even if the map doesn't have a narrow choke in front of it. This way, the toss only has to hold against 15 hydralisks at the time which isn't that hard. It's way more benifitial for me, the zerg to fight in the open since then my 30 hydralisks can attack and I can effectively dodge AOE like storms, which would totally rape me in front of his natural.
So I don't feel like we need more pushing strength. It's already too easy to kill each other.
We need more spread out movement and stronger AOE. This would imo really improve the game by a substantial amount. If it doesn't end up working? At least we tried.
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
People used to say the same about the Colossus. And guess what? It's as awful now as it was back at release.
people also said baneling was shit and will never be made. same with stalkers
That's because it's impossible to know how powerful a unit will be in the future. It is, however, completely possible to speculate about how interesting it's going to be, purely based on the design. It's not difficult to see that the Colossus is a boring a-move monstrosity without ever playing the game.
Curiously enough, people who use the "YOU DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO TURN OUT" argument never seem to have any positive examples of how a unit like the Tempest or the Warhound could prove to be interesting. The only thing they have is an appeal to their own ignorance.
Here, I'll speculate a few (though I have already mentioned most of them before).
Warhound could be interesting depend on how haywire will work. Instead of wasting haywires on zealots, they are much better used on immortals to bypass harden shield or snipe sentries, or at least stalkers (more micro for terran, awesome). Terran needs a powerful anti-immortal and mobile unit against early-mid game fast blink stalker in order for mech to be viable, and warhound can perfectly fit that role if balanced well.
With tanky and mass/throwable battle hellions and warhounds, tanks can actually do their job and wack away at the colossus or templars/archons without all your weak light hellions melt away by chargelots/colossus/archons and storms.
From the 2 additional mech unit for terran you can see the how much blizzard is trying to make mech work. Sadly, what they need to do is to do the same for protoss so they are more micro intensive in the late game. But I guess nothing will change that, they failed to do that in broodwar as well. Protoss will always be known as the 1a2a3a4a race
It is extremely hard to tell about tempest. It is a unit with 22 range, so there are a ton of interesting timing and tactics you can do with it. Though I am not sure how they're going to balance that and most likely it will be scratch for headache balance issues
Ignorance can go both ways when you don't bother to read some of the potential these units can bring not so many posts ago
The tempest seems terrible for game balance. It will be used to annoy you into attacking at an unfavorable angle, make siege tanks even more useless than they already are in that MU, force even more vikings to be built, which is already bad and annoying to do if you are terran since they are useless outside of a counter x unit role. So sick of building vikings. MMMGV in pvt, MMTV in zvt, MST in tvt... I think i just want the BW goliath back really. Maybe if Viking came out of factory and had vehicle upgrades i wouldnt hate it with a passion.
On July 16 2012 19:13 gasmeter wrote: Although I am a little skeptical over the Terran upgrades for HotS, it will be interesting to try to mech against Protoss.
Warhound + Battle Hellion is not Mech. It's nothing more than Marauders + Firebat that's been re-skinned.
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
People used to say the same about the Colossus. And guess what? It's as awful now as it was back at release.
people also said baneling was shit and will never be made. same with stalkers
That's because it's impossible to know how powerful a unit will be in the future. It is, however, completely possible to speculate about how interesting it's going to be, purely based on the design. It's not difficult to see that the Colossus is a boring a-move monstrosity without ever playing the game.
Curiously enough, people who use the "YOU DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO TURN OUT" argument never seem to have any positive examples of how a unit like the Tempest or the Warhound could prove to be interesting. The only thing they have is an appeal to their own ignorance.
Here, I'll speculate a few (though I have already mentioned most of them before).
Warhound could be interesting depend on how haywire will work. Instead of wasting haywires on zealots, they are much better used on immortals to bypass harden shield or snipe sentries, or at least stalkers (more micro for terran, awesome). Terran needs a powerful anti-immortal and mobile unit against early-mid game fast blink stalker in order for mech to be viable, and warhound can perfectly fit that role if balanced well.
With tanky and mass/throwable battle hellions and warhounds, tanks can actually do their job and wack away at the colossus or templars/archons without all your weak light hellions melt away by chargelots/colossus/archons and storms.
From the 2 additional mech unit for terran you can see the how much blizzard is trying to make mech work. Sadly, what they need to do is to do the same for protoss so they are more micro intensive in the late game. But I guess nothing will change that, they failed to do that in broodwar as well. Protoss will always be known as the 1a2a3a4a race
It is extremely hard to tell about tempest. It is a unit with 22 range, so there are a ton of interesting timing and tactics you can do with it. Though I am not sure how they're going to balance that and most likely it will be scratch for headache balance issues
Ignorance can go both ways when you don't bother to read some of the potential these units can bring not so many posts ago
Personally I feel that Storm Drops are still under used. That takes crap tons of APM to manage the drops and macro.
I do not understand why he doesn't mention about Raven, Thor and Battlecruiser.
Their strength is when you have en masse and yet Blizzard is against such design where you just mass one unit. It really boggles my mind that none of these units are getting the attention they desperately need.
On July 15 2012 03:04 Toastie.NL wrote: HotS is NOT adding ANYTHING that is really good for the game.
... you can say that now with how much time you played the game?
you dont have to play the game to know immediately units like the tempest are shitfuck boring and dumb
becuase you have discovered every possible strat to use them with right? *rolls eyes* Dont you think you are jumping to conclusions watching videos of pre beta builds when you havent even played this yet? But maybe its cooler to complain?!? kids these days.....
People used to say the same about the Colossus. And guess what? It's as awful now as it was back at release.
people also said baneling was shit and will never be made. same with stalkers
That's because it's impossible to know how powerful a unit will be in the future. It is, however, completely possible to speculate about how interesting it's going to be, purely based on the design. It's not difficult to see that the Colossus is a boring a-move monstrosity without ever playing the game.
Curiously enough, people who use the "YOU DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO TURN OUT" argument never seem to have any positive examples of how a unit like the Tempest or the Warhound could prove to be interesting. The only thing they have is an appeal to their own ignorance.
Here, I'll speculate a few (though I have already mentioned most of them before).
Warhound could be interesting depend on how haywire will work. Instead of wasting haywires on zealots, they are much better used on immortals to bypass harden shield or snipe sentries, or at least stalkers (more micro for terran, awesome). Terran needs a powerful anti-immortal and mobile unit against early-mid game fast blink stalker in order for mech to be viable, and warhound can perfectly fit that role if balanced well.
With tanky and mass/throwable battle hellions and warhounds, tanks can actually do their job and wack away at the colossus or templars/archons without all your weak light hellions melt away by chargelots/colossus/archons and storms.
From the 2 additional mech unit for terran you can see the how much blizzard is trying to make mech work. Sadly, what they need to do is to do the same for protoss so they are more micro intensive in the late game. But I guess nothing will change that, they failed to do that in broodwar as well. Protoss will always be known as the 1a2a3a4a race
It is extremely hard to tell about tempest. It is a unit with 22 range, so there are a ton of interesting timing and tactics you can do with it. Though I am not sure how they're going to balance that and most likely it will be scratch for headache balance issues
Ignorance can go both ways when you don't bother to read some of the potential these units can bring not so many posts ago
Personally I feel that Storm Drops are still under used. That takes crap tons of APM to manage the drops and macro.
How does storm drops take crap ton of APM? I'm sure pro's would be able to spare 5 apm to perform a drop with a couple of high templar.
They don't storm drop that much because storm is worthless, it takes too many storms to actually kill drones. In broodwar it took 1 storm to kill drones. And thus in sc2 you'd rather have an archon more than a failed storm drop.
Come on, we all know Dustin is only concerned about his rocks. First destructible rocks, now collapsible rocks, and what's next? falling down rocks? xel'naga rocks? brandy on the rocks?
Did anyone notice the UI change? I'm watching Ret's stream and instead of having all the buttons at the bottom right, there are tooltips like "Right click mouse to move" and "Press A and Left Click to Attack Move"
I like how Blizzard want T to use Mech vs P so they just introduce "mech" units that function like bio. Is the aim to introduce new playstyles or do they just want people to build things out of factory sometimes? Seems that if the backbone to mech are seige tanks, then Blizzard need to be figurin out how to make them more potent in TvP. Would anybody actually mind a Tank buff or heaven forbid, make them more like BW so they didn't smart fire but did a lot more damage. P snipes tank lines with Tempest...Z abducts them suckers wit the Viper...Do it Bliz! :D
On September 06 2012 18:51 Chicken Chaser wrote: Did anyone notice the UI change? I'm watching Ret's stream and instead of having all the buttons at the bottom right, there are tooltips like "Right click mouse to move" and "Press A and Left Click to Attack Move"
Please tell me this can be reverted in options?
It's called "Simplified Command Card" and it can be disabled in game options. Also it's turned by default and it feels more comfortable for newer players
TvT is stale with Tank lines...and your solution is to make TvT Warhound vs Warhound? You're right Dustin, that sounds WAY more exciting.
What is with the hate against Seige Tanks. They're already useless in one matchup, and now you're trying to drive them out of another, too. Along with the Marine, the Tank is the iconic Terran unit. It dominates TvT AND THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.
Please for the love of god cut the Warhound. Or change it drasticly.
On July 10 2012 12:02 Ketara wrote: You want a good argument for the Carrier?
Make it work like you want Tempest to work. Give the Interceptors an upgrade that sends them out at 22 range.
There. Carrier is what you want Tempest to be, but it's cool while the Tempest is dumb.
exactly. it would be even better this way because while you could make interceptors have higher armor and/or hp, they could still be destructible and thus defendible against, while the tempest attack always hits
also, the model for the tempest is horrible. worst designed toss unit in hots
On July 10 2012 11:56 KonohaFlash wrote: - UI is clunky and cluttered. Plan on cleaning it up and implmented clans, groups etc.
Any closer info on what kind of groups are meant there?
- Zerg has difficulty pushing, and even with signifcant advantages in the mid-game, they can't push their opponent if they are reasonably defended, until they get broodlords out.
Doesn't seem bigger than the issues Terran simply hears l2p from Blizzard about, IMHO. And the Terran issues were not difficulty pushing. They were difficulty not dying.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
I'm not aware of any other race having a way to kill the opponent immediately after gaining advantage in the midgame or immediately after gaining advantage at any point. Nor do I think any race should have that ability.
- Protoss has to very passive in the early game as they only have zealot, sentry's and stalkers at that point.
Jinro summed it up perfectly.
- The mothership core will allow protoss to pressure in the early game, without the risk of losing their high gas cost sentries.
Or their bases. The Purifier has a lot of range. Together with the Tempest, that's a lot of big ranged damage for Toss.
- Protoss lacks the ability to raid, outside of the warp-prism and blink stalkers, however these only work effectively on the pro-level.
Blink stalkers work effectively only on the pro level (and multiprong bio dropping does not?)? Are we playing the same game?
- Terran never goes factory against Protoss
Some people still do to a limited extent. I'd welcome more ability to do so.
- TvT is stale with tank lines, and the only way to break out of it is the sky battles.
Mirrors have a tendency to lock up or be coinflippy or otherwise somewhat dumb. Sky battles to break out of siege impasses are actually not dumb. Siege tanks were not designed to be a-moved into at ease, that's been like the point of them since 1998.
- Wants to give Terran the ability to go mech or bio against protoss without either strategy having to be more dominant than the other, they want the decision to be based on maps, and scouting.
Grateful for that.
- Want to give terran control over the map, outside of their army, or "deathball" as everyone likes to call it.
Widow mine costs supply last time I checked. That means less army on the front if you choose to deploy widow mines somewhere.
- A lot of people still want it in the game, but he hasn't seen anyone come up with a good arguement for it, besides it being cool and iconic.
How come "cool and iconic" is not a good enough argument? And why are designers so insistent on going against what a lot of people apparently want in the game and believe it to be cool and iconic? The devs always have the last word (in reality the shareholders do but anyway) but it doesn't seem to be a great idea to make a point of it. Makes me think of BioWare and Mass Effect 3 endings.
- They want to give zerg's a way to effectively kill their opponent immediately after gaining an advantage in the midgame.
I'm not aware of any other race having a way to kill the opponent immediately after gaining advantage in the midgame or immediately after gaining advantage at any point. Nor do I think any race should have that ability.
It depends on how much of an advantage we're talking about here. What's being talked about here is situations where the Protoss or Terran messes up his build somehow with a failed attack or something else, and the Zerg being unable to capitalize on it because the other races can hide behind their defenses The Swarm Host adds another option besides investing in economy and aiming for an end-game army.
EPT
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