On May 06 2021 20:25 Fango wrote: Rogue will eternally suffer behind others in the GOAT discussion because who the hell wants to watch this shit. Most unlikeable player that isn't a convicted matchfixer.
I like to watch him and I like him.
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years.
Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else.
Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again
Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains).
Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win.
Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments.
Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups...
You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds.
There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over.
I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever.
why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game?
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
He's trying to discredit the fact that Rogue has a record Serral can't hope to match too. He was salty before a game was even played today.
At this point I feel sorry for Rogue. He is a great player with many titles. But because the majority of his finals were one-sided and not very entertaining, he gets a lot of hate.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
it's Clem because he's number one on aligulac (Dave4-style argument) /s
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
On May 06 2021 20:28 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue is the GOAT. The level of domination he shows in the finals of the biggest tournaments and in BO7 in general is just unbelievable. And the fashion he does it in makes it even more ridiculous, and for me, in a really interesting way.
+ he finally lifted the trophy like a cool dude. Congrats Rogue. Maru will get the G5L next time. It will happen this year I am sure of it ! GGs
Mau won't get the G5L trophy. Cursed Trophy. Deal with it.
Dude you better stop saying such cursed things.
Dude, you better start to see the pattern.
Mvp wins 4 titles. They create G5L trophy. Mvp never wins GSL again. Maru wins 4 titles in a row. They bring the G5L trophy. Maru never wins GSL again.
If we wanna see Maru winning the G5L there need to be 2 4-time victors in the finals, so the trophy HAS TO GO to somebody and I dare to say it will be Rogue or Dark, not Maru.
Curses are stupid and dont exist. Maru just needs to be more prepared and clutch (and ideally not meet Rogue again) and he will get it. And Mvp only has 3 GSL titles. GSL vs the world does not count. It would be an insult to CodeS to do so.
Mvp has 4 GSLs. It doesn't do anyone any good to change the rules now. Maru doesn't need that.
You can say whatever, but a GSL vs the world is not a real GSL, everybody knows it.
If that's the case Maru already has 5 GSLs because he won a Super Tournament and this whole conversation is pointless.
Let's not debate semantics, Afreeca says Mvp has 4 and Maru has 4. Rogue has 3. Afreeca is the authority so let's just listen to what they have to say.
Don't you mean "if that's the case then Maru only has 4 GSLs if we only count Code S wins"?
We can't go by what Afreeca says, because what they say doesn't make sense. Counting MVP's GSL vs the World as a win towards G5L but NOT counting Maru's Super win towards G5l does NOT make any sense.
GSL vs the World and GSL Super *are* GSL "title" wins. However, they don't count towards G5L, not anymore at least.
MVP has 3 Code S, Maru has 4 Code S. If MVP were to come back today, he would need to win 2 more Code S.
This is not about making sense. This is Afreeca's tournament they get to make the rules. Afreeca says if Maru wins one more it's special. So Afreeca gets to decide that he gets the special trophy.
Mvp didn't get it, he had the chance to and he lost. At least Afreeca gave him a fair chance and he lost fair and square. The fact Maru has had multiple chances just speaks to how good HE is. No one else, not even Mvp has had multiple chances to win the crown, no matter how arbitrary the rules are for it.
Well I'm completely lost here then. Because the person you were responding to was saying that "GSL vs the World doesn't count towards G5L". And you said that if that's the case, then Maru's Super would count and Maru would already have G5L. The person you were responding to is saying that MVP should only be counted as 3 currently, and Maru counted as 4 currently, and that Maru is ahead of MVP. They are not saying Maru should already have G5L.
It is only if we go by Afreeca's OLD rules that Maru may already have been awarded the G5L. However, today they only count Code S towards that. Maru NOT having G5L is proof of the updated ruling.
G5L only counts Code S. You can still say that Maru has 5 GSL titles and MVP has 4 titles. But not all GSL titles count towards G5L.
I do agree Maru > MVP, but I'm just trying to clarify about G5L here.
On May 06 2021 20:25 Fango wrote: Rogue will eternally suffer behind others in the GOAT discussion because who the hell wants to watch this shit. Most unlikeable player that isn't a convicted matchfixer.
I like to watch him and I like him.
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years.
Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else.
Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again
Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains).
Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win.
Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments.
Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups...
You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds.
There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over.
I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever.
why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game?
There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway.
Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
On May 06 2021 21:03 Andi_Goldberger wrote: why does every finals thread derail into GOAT discussions? :D not that I mind it its kind of entertaining
I feel like it definitely started when the Serral fan saw a foreigner win two weekenders against koreans and decided to proclaim him the GOAT because of it. Naturally such bad takes were going to ignite responses from anyone who watched the game before 2018.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
On May 06 2021 21:01 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: At this point I feel sorry for Rogue. He is a great player with many titles. But because the majority of his finals were one-sided and not very entertaining, he gets a lot of hate.
Don't hate the player, hate the game. Rogue deserved this win today, he only utilized the tools available to him and his judgement was mostly amazing, if the crowbar works against Maru, then it's on Maru to find a way to stop that.
It was just super frustrating to see 3 games in a row where he just couldn't deal with Rogue brute-forcing his victories.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
On May 06 2021 20:25 Fango wrote: Rogue will eternally suffer behind others in the GOAT discussion because who the hell wants to watch this shit. Most unlikeable player that isn't a convicted matchfixer.
I like to watch him and I like him.
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years.
Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else.
Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again
Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains).
Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win.
Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments.
Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups...
You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds.
There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over.
I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever.
why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game?
There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway.
Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors.
But you are not making much sense. I think youre just getting lost in your Rogue hate. Which is fine, we all like different things. But if its build orders and rock-paper-scissors then why Dark usually gets destroyed by a good Terran when he tries these roach builds? Is he just unlucky? Or the Terrans are doing better builds against Dark on purpose? Its all super ridiculous man :D
EPT
