EPT
GSL Code S
Global StarCraft II League/2021/Season 1Streams & Casters
Format
- Playoffs:
- Single-elimination bracket.
- Quarterfinals are Bo5.
- Semifinals are Bo7.
- Finals are Bo7.
Map Pool
Grand Finals
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1850.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1099.jpg)
Results
CSS: FO-nTTaX
Awesomeness: Panda
Banner: GSL
[GSL 2021] Code S - Grand Finals
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Map Pool CSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Poll: GSL Code S Champion Maru (32) Rogue (27) 59 total votes Your vote: GSL Code S Champion | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24209 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On May 06 2021 05:37 [PkF] Wire wrote: I took the risky bet on Rogue and I'm quite a Rogue fan so my heart leans towards sexy boy, but I'm fine with any outcome really, as long as the finals isn't completely terrible - one can believe. Can't wait for tomorrow, haven't been this excited for a finals in a loooong time. Me too. Both are my favorites but slightly favor to Rogue since he was the only guy who kept me watching Sc2 games post Kespa era. | ||
Whatson
United States5356 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
A clowny 4-0 incoming, i suppose. | ||
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dbrinker
30 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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umelbumel
2026 Posts
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2215 Posts
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
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tennisl
United Kingdom44 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
Why not in the weekend? wtf | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
still hyped. besides, anyone taking bets on how many times Maru is gonna proxy rax? My money is on 3. | ||
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2215 Posts
On May 06 2021 16:43 SmoKim wrote: Wait, the finals is TODAY? Why not in the weekend? wtf Bizarre | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
Maru 4 1 | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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Heliogabal
Germany3 Posts
On May 06 2021 16:43 SmoKim wrote: Wait, the finals is TODAY? Why not in the weekend? wtf does anybody know why it's on a thursday? | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On May 06 2021 18:35 Ziggy wrote: because they use the FreecUP studio for Kartrider League on Saturdays and ASL on Sundays I always knew Kartrider was the better game after seeing ads during Proleague | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
go rogue | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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tigera6
3409 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
Is Mvp watching? | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On May 06 2021 18:53 Lorning wrote: Do they have a G5L throphy ready? Is Mvp watching? Mvp can't watch his back is too broken | ||
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On May 06 2021 18:53 Lorning wrote: Do they have a G5L throphy ready? Is Mvp watching? They had one made for Maru last year when he reached his 5th GSL final IIRC | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
25mn already and it's not started yet, the hype is killing me | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 18:54 Elentos wrote: They had one made for Maru last year when he reached his 5th GSL final IIRC maybe they sold it because they thought the trophy is cursed  | ||
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KingofdaHipHop
United States25602 Posts
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Gina
241 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:02 Jockmcplop wrote: those widow mine drops kinda sloppy that Rogue still lost so many workers to them | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:03 Charoisaur wrote: kinda sloppy that Rogue still lost so many workers to them Overseers are just too expensive man | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:04 Charoisaur wrote: I think if he didn't lose 1/1 Maru could've won this Reminds me of his misplaced ebays against TIME at BlizzCon 2019... He fought back hard, so I'm not too worried for other maps. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 06 2021 18:55 Poopi wrote: Both at full power Rogue wins? Well kinda false factually, but thank you for cursing Rogue instead of Maru Nah. Rogue at full power smashes everyone, including Maru. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
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tennisl
United Kingdom44 Posts
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:09 MarianoSC2 wrote: Nah. Rogue at full power smashes everyone, including Maru. "vT 2983 ± 96 (#6)" this is Rogue at full power in ZvT though. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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darklycid
3512 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
(( | ||
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
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tennisl
United Kingdom44 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:20 Fango wrote: This is how Rogue beats Maru. Roach allin over and over again Soulkey flashbacks | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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Grollicus
Germany287 Posts
Also Rogue should try to drag the games out more to exhaust Marus wrists. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:21 Charoisaur wrote: that should've been impossible to lose for Maru after crushing the first push Idk, the roaches from the right would have managed to close in on the tanks. IDK if the mmm woulda lasted long enough | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:22 Grollicus wrote: Also Rogue should try to drag the games out more to exhaust Marus wrists. Rogue isn't winning the straight up games. He's winning with roach allins. Maru just didn't scout or expect that Rogue was going for another roach allin here. | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:20 Fango wrote: This is how Rogue beats Maru. Roach allin over and over again Do you think Blizzard will nerf Roaches after this? We have done with infestors and nydus nerf after Rogue win with the highest rate. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:22 lolfail9001 wrote: So apparently the way to win at TvZ is to roach all-in and then roach all-in again because Terran surely won't see this coming. It'll only take a minor adjustment from Maru to fix it for the remaining games though | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:22 Fango wrote: Rogue isn't winning the straight up games. He's winning with roach allins. Maru just didn't scout or expect that Rogue was going for another roach allin here. I wonder what he was expecting instead though? him transitioning to ling bane?? | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:23 Jockmcplop wrote: It'll only take a minor adjustment from Maru to fix it for the remaining games though Next game Rogue just uses first roach all-in to transition into vipers right away instead of remax and it's 3-0. I don't want this to become true. | ||
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Grollicus
Germany287 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:22 Fango wrote: Rogue isn't winning the straight up games. He's winning with roach allins. Maru just didn't scout or expect that Rogue was going for another roach allin here. Sure but you can still win the game and then dangle a comeback in front of maru for 20 minutes where he's dropping left and right and stutter stepping marines while the zerg is just too far ahead. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:24 lolfail9001 wrote: Next game Rogue just uses first roach all-in to transition into vipers and it's 3-0. I don't want this to become true. Lol I can see it tbh. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:23 Jockmcplop wrote: It'll only take a minor adjustment from Maru to fix it for the remaining games though Yeah but the instant he goes for an adjustment Rogue will baneling bust or some shit. This is basically over. Rogue can mess around as much as he wants being up 2-0, and he's the worst player to go against when he's just messing around. | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:24 Fango wrote: Yeah but the instant he goes for an adjustment Rogue will baneling bust or some shit. This is basically over. Rogue can mess around as much as he wants being up 2-0, and he's the worst player to go against when he's just messing around. Never rule out the comeback potential of Maru, though. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:24 Fango wrote: Yeah but the instant he goes for an adjustment Rogue will baneling bust or some shit. This is basically over. Rogue can mess around as much as he wants being up 2-0, and he's the worst player to go against when he's just messing around. I still have hope. If there's one thing I learned from Star Wars its that we are nothing without hope. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:24 Grollicus wrote: Sure but you can still win the game and then dangle a comeback in front of maru for 20 minutes where he's dropping left and right and stutter stepping marines while the zerg is just too far ahead. I don't think you play around and intentionally let Maru do his wrist-breaking comeback shit. Rogue almost fell apart vs it in this game but just about had enough | ||
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Niravroh
165 Posts
Also TY is hilarious LOL | ||
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Fuell
Netherlands3111 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:25 Creager wrote: Never rule out the comeback potential of Maru, though. Nah, it's Rogue. He has enough build order wins to roll anyone, especially being up 2-0. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:27 Creager wrote: Maru for the love of Flash, just do it for Mvp if you can't do it for yourself!!! Nope, sorry, cursed trophy. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:28 Fango wrote: Nah, it's Rogue. He has enough build order wins to roll anyone, especially being up 2-0. Well there's still 2 people playing the game fortunately, it's not like we haven't seen reverse sweeps from Maru :D | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:30 Fango wrote: Another case of Rogue getting past the ro8/ro4 when he didn't shouldn't have and rolling the final. Everything would have been different if Zest went for a fast warp-in pylon in game 5 | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:31 deacon.frost wrote: So I missed the start, how much Artosis cursed Maru? Artosis actually is a Rogue fanboy | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:31 Elentos wrote: Everything would have been different if Zest went for a fast warp-in pylon in game 5 Rogue would have like 7 GSLs if he didn't barely lose in all those ro8s. I actually think all those ro8s he lost in LotV would have had him cruising through the final. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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tennisl
United Kingdom44 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:32 Fango wrote: Rogue would have like 7 GSLs if he didn't barely lose in all those ro8s. I actually think all those ro8s he lost in LotV would have had him cruising through the final. but he didn't. You can say that about a lot of players. Dark for example also had a couple narrow defeats when he was considered the best player | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:33 tennisl wrote: Rogue does not want to play late game with Maru, that make sense.. I surprised that Maru was't ready to heavy roach/ravenger push . He was ready the first time. He held it and then didn't expect Rogue to go for another roach allin 1 minute later | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
Also Rogue - Roach all-in the first two games. And now I feel like Nydus bullshit will come :D | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:34 Charoisaur wrote: but he didn't. You can say that about a lot of players. Dark for example also had a couple narrow defeats when he was considered the best player I know he didn't. I was following on from the point about every time Rogue barely gets through the ro8 he crushes the final. | ||
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:32 Fango wrote: Rogue would have like 7 GSLs if he didn't barely lose in all those ro8s. I actually think all those ro8s he lost in LotV would have had him cruising through the final. He would have had 2 (3 as of today) finals vs Maru, a final against peak 2017 Inno and some difficult semifinal opponents. He would never have been on an undefeated Bo7 streak for as long if he won all the Ro8s. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:35 Elentos wrote: He would have had 2 (3 as of today) finals vs Maru, a final against peak 2017 Inno and some difficult semifinal opponents. He would never have been on an undefeated Bo7 streak for as long if he won all the Ro8s. He would have had a final against Gumiho and INno in 2017. I think he crushes both of them given how he smashed every terran in late 2017 (including those two), especially in the mech ones. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:37 Fango wrote: He would have had a final against Gumiho and INno in 2017. I think he crushes both of them given how he smashed every terran in late 2017 (including those two), especially in the mech ones. in late 2017 he didn't exactly crush the terrans as he barely won 3-2 against TY and Inno when he played them | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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umelbumel
2026 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:39 MarianoSC2 wrote: Nah, even Rogue cant make this shit work 3 times in a row can he? I hope so. | ||
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:39 Charoisaur wrote: in late 2017 he didn't exactly crush the terrans as he barely won 3-2 against TY and Inno when he played them And especially TY needed to pull off some colossal throwing to make it work. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:39 MarianoSC2 wrote: Nah, even Rogue cant make this shit work 3 times in a row can he? The problem in these scenarios - like in any sports - is: the opponent probably thinks the same. Many succesful tennis players are famous for doing the one trick just one more time than the opponents expect them to. Just another longline shot, just another serve to the middle, because no one expects them to so the same shit over and over again. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23283 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:42 Charoisaur wrote: this could become actually the worst GSL final of all time What can be worse than one guy trying 1 build 4 times and failing 4 times? A guy trying 1 build 4 times and winning 4 times. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:42 lolfail9001 wrote: What can be worse than one guy trying 1 build 4 times and failing 4 times? A guy trying 1 build 4 times and winning 4 times. Even if Rogue wins every game with roaches this is still better than Rogue vs Trap | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:42 Charoisaur wrote: this could become actually the worst GSL final of all time Never forget Inca vs. NesTea, please. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
As i said, if Rogue really wins Maru doing that 4 times over, this will beat Inca vs Nestea. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:46 Heartland wrote: I am not following too closely, is Maru playing poorly or Rogue playing well? it's a Rogue finals | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:46 Heartland wrote: I am not following too closely, is Maru playing poorly or Rogue playing well? It's more so Maru dying to roach ravager all ins than Rogue playing extraordinary or anything | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:47 lolfail9001 wrote: As i said, if Rogue really wins Maru doing that 4 times over, this will beat Inca vs Nestea. Na, I prefer someone playing well with cheesy strategies and winning over someone playing shitty with cheesy strategies and losing, tbh. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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FuRong
New Zealand3089 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:47 lolfail9001 wrote: As i said, if Rogue really wins Maru doing that 4 times over, this will beat Inca vs Nestea. Agreed | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:46 Heartland wrote: I am not following too closely, is Maru playing poorly or Rogue playing well? The former | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
What the hell ! | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:48 Swisslink wrote: Na, I prefer someone playing well with cheesy strategies and winning over someone playing shitty with cheesy strategies and losing, tbh. I have seen far too many roach all-ins in last year to call that cheesy. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:48 Narcind wrote: It's more so Maru dying to roach ravager all ins than Rogue playing extraordinary or anything I would argue Rogue does, what he's doing, pretty much perfectly though. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:46 Heartland wrote: I am not following too closely, is Maru playing poorly or Rogue playing well? he's not exactly playing bad but in every game there's some small thing that went wrong for Maru which Rogue snowballed into a victory | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:49 swarminfestor wrote: Blizzard will nerf roaches after this hahaha highly unlikely at this point, I doubt blizzard is even watching this | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
Also NAUTILUS HYPE | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:39 Charoisaur wrote: in late 2017 he didn't exactly crush the terrans as he barely won 3-2 against TY and Inno when he played them He did when they played mech. Which largely contributed to INno and Gumi winning those GSLs | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Trap-Dream would have been a better final, for sure. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Rogue finals are never entertaining. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:48 Narcind wrote: It's more so Maru dying to roach ravager all ins than Rogue playing extraordinary or anything well but when you weight that Maru is the best terran in the world, how he usually smash people that goes roach ravanger vs him you need to give credit to the macro beast rogue is | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:46 Heartland wrote: I am not following too closely, is Maru playing poorly or Rogue playing well? Rogue is on top of defending drops and harrassment pretty well. I think it more of Rogue playing well with a touch of throw from Maru. | ||
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tennisl
United Kingdom44 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:50 Xain0n wrote: That's pathetic. Trap-Dream would have been a better final, for sure. not exactly a high bar at the moment lol | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:50 Xain0n wrote: That's pathetic. Trap-Dream would have been a better final, for sure. Anything not Rogue is what you're after here | ||
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:50 Xain0n wrote: That's pathetic. Trap-Dream would have been a better final, for sure. At least there are no foreigners in this finals no? | ||
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darklycid
3512 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:50 Argonauta wrote: well but when you weight that Maru is the best terran in the world, how he usually smash people that goes roach ravanger vs him you need to give credit to the macro beast rogue is I think that's overlooked here. Many players try the stuff Rogue is doing here and most of them just fail, because at one point Maru manages to stabilize and roll over the Zerg who is stuck on roach/ravager. Rogue's aggression just does not stop. Ever. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
Come on man why so salty? Maru can still turn this around. As for Rogue finals, they are definitely not peak gameplay, but its super interesting to watch a player dominate so hard especially when the stakes are the highest. I enjoy Rogue finals quite a lot | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
I honestly don't think there's anything Maru can do to win | ||
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:49 Swisslink wrote: I would argue Rogue does, what he's doing, pretty much perfectly though. Absolutely, he's executing it well, but it's still just a roach ravager all in off 3 base saturation, there's not that much to it other than Maru having kinda poor holds | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:54 Narcind wrote: Absolutely, he's executing it well, but it's still just a roach ravager all in off 3 base saturation, there's not that much to it other than Maru having kinda poor holds There was a gold 4th on previous map. Kind of a bad map. | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: Come on man why so salty? Maru can still turn this around. As for Rogue finals, they are definitely not peak gameplay, but its super interesting to watch a player dominate so hard especially when the stakes are the highest. I enjoy Rogue finals quite a lot Watching Rogue dominate feels very different from say, watching Serral dominate. Rogue abuses aspects of the game to their fullest, whether it's nydus or roaches or infestors in the past. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:54 Narcind wrote: Absolutely, he's executing it well, but it's still just a roach ravager all in off 3 base saturation, there's not that much to it other than Maru having kinda poor holds Are Maru's holds poor? He's doing basically as well as you can without scouting any earlier. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: Come on man why so salty? Maru can still turn this around. As for Rogue finals, they are definitely not peak gameplay, but its super interesting to watch a player dominate so hard especially when the stakes are the highest. I enjoy Rogue finals quite a lot We all know he won't. | ||
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Javah
France739 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
will maru have bunkers? will he stop helion production.. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:55 Fango wrote: Are Maru's holds poor? He's doing basically as well as you can without scouting any earlier. Game 2 was kind of unlucky but the others were not great tbh. | ||
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Javah
France739 Posts
edit: or not :D | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
no ravager no 4-0 | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:56 Jockmcplop wrote: Game 2 was kind of unlucky but the others were not great tbh. in game 1 the ebay kills fucked him | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
He deserved it for putting his ebays in the natural | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:56 Jockmcplop wrote: Game 2 was kind of unlucky but the others were not great tbh. I'm not what Maru was supposed to do differently? His SCV pulls and tank spread was as good as you can ask for. He didn't exactly have time to get bunkers up | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:58 lolfail9001 wrote: Pffft, Rogue, you betrayed The Build Order. yeah disappointing. Winning 4 times in a row with the same allin would be a new one | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
My hands / chest hurt from the pop off but it was worth it | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:59 Fango wrote: I'm not what Maru was supposed to do differently? His SCV pulls and tank spread was as good as you can ask for. He didn't exactly have time to get bunkers up Its small margins I suppose. Scouting 10 seconds earlier in game 3 and he would have had bunkers up for the push instead of building, he may have got enough kills to hold without losing so many scvs. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
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tigera6
3409 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:00 Morbidius wrote: Rogue seems unusually phased by this loss. He is up 3-0, he can lose 2 games and laught at it. | ||
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:59 Fango wrote: I'm not what Maru was supposed to do differently? His SCV pulls and tank spread was as good as you can ask for. He didn't exactly have time to get bunkers up What Maru was supposed to do differently? He went 4 tax tank medivav production before 3rd CC and did 0 dmg to a 60 drone zerg - what happened after that wasnt what decided the game | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:59 Vindicare605 wrote: THIS IS HOW IT STARTS!!! And the game after the next one will be how it ends IMO. | ||
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:54 Poopi wrote: There was a gold 4th on previous map. Kind of a bad map. Not really though, he was on 3 base saturation until like 10 minutes. If he doesn't deny the third like he did, he's pretty far behind. | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:00 Morbidius wrote: Rogue seems unusually phased by this loss. Isn't Rogue famous for raging and smashing his keyboard in the Jin Air house? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:01 Amumoman wrote: What Maru was supposed to do differently? He went 4 tax tank medivav production before 3rd CC and did 0 dmg to a 60 drone zerg - what happened after that wasnt what decided the game I was refering to his defense, not his build order choices. The point was in that situation I'm not sure how Maru could have reacted better. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
And Maru still can turn this around. He is freaking Maru after all. | ||
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On May 06 2021 19:55 Fango wrote: Are Maru's holds poor? He's doing basically as well as you can without scouting any earlier. His holds are always about as good as you can manage with terrible early games and no scouting | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:01 Narcind wrote: Not really though, he was on 3 base saturation until like 10 minutes. If he doesn't deny the third like he did, he's pretty far behind. But the 3rd base is very hard to defend against roach ravager all-ins? He still had tanks in the back, pulled scvs, and it was not enough. If the map did not have this gold base Maru would probably be fine, he even delayed gold mining for so long yet it was not sufficient. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:01 deacon.frost wrote: And the game after the next one will be how it ends IMO. Wash your mouth out with soap, how dare you say something like that. | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:02 Fango wrote: I was refering to his defense, not his build order choices. The point was in that situation I'm not sure how Maru could have reacted better. He could've probably commited harder to his initial push on Rogue's third since he was pretty much 2-base all-in anyway. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:02 Fango wrote: I was refering to his defense, not his build order choices. The point was in that situation I'm not sure how Maru could have reacted better. That's kind of the nature of these type of roach builds though. It exploits bad luck/minute timings that rely on your opponent not quite being ready yet. Its kinda gross and absolutely horrible from a spectator point of view but a good way to win against someone who's long game is better. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:00 Morbidius wrote: Rogue seems unusually phased by this loss. Yeah, he really wanted that 4:0. Might have only prepared 4 variations of this roach all-in and its obvious he does not really want to play a standard game with Maru, so he might be a bit scared now. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:06 Fango wrote: Oh no it's jagannatha and romanticide next? It's 1000% over for Maru. It's over when it's over. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:04 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yeah, he really wanted that 4:0. Might have only prepared 4 variations of this roach all-in and its obvious he does not really want to play a standard game with Maru, so he might be a bit scared now. I highly doubt that. Rogue seems among the best players when it comes to preparation, he'll surely have something prepared for the rest of the series. So far, Rogue controlled the entire course of events and if that continues, I don't see Maru coming back. Wouldn't even be opposed to some cheesy strats by Maru to throw Rogue off. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:03 Vindicare605 wrote: Wash your mouth out with soap, how dare you say something like that. I gave Maru the victory on Jaganatha, what else do you wantg? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:08 deacon.frost wrote: I gave Maru the victory on Jaganatha, what else do you wantg? FAITH! I WANT YOU TO HAVE FAITH! | ||
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:03 Poopi wrote: But the 3rd base is very hard to defend against roach ravager all-ins? He still had tanks in the back, pulled scvs, and it was not enough. If the map did not have this gold base Maru would probably be fine, he even delayed gold mining for so long yet it was not sufficient. It was the nydus that ended up deciding the game, Maru just lost way too much to it | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:01 Fango wrote: Any other big brained fast muta voters? | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:11 Fango wrote: Does Artosis really think BCs against roaches are the way to go? I could have sworn roach allins are almost a build order win against BC openers. I think fast roaches beats BC openers, but BCs are good against the later roaches that Rogue was doing in the first 3 games? | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:14 Die4Ever wrote: I think fast roaches beats BC openers, but BCs are good against the later roaches that Rogue was doing in the first 3 games? Even against later roaches like what Rogue did bcs will struggle, you just can't get enough. Need tanks | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7113 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:09 Narcind wrote: It was the nydus that ended up deciding the game, Maru just lost way too much to it The game was over way before the nydus lol. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
raises hand. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
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TheOneAboveU
Germany3367 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
Feels bad man. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Did you see that explosion? I HAD THE FAITH TO GIVE HIM JAGANATHA! | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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darklycid
3512 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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Javah
France739 Posts
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
Hard disagree, roach ravager just isn't something you can stay on that long without doing significant amounts of damage, and killing half of Maru's workers is what I would quantify as significant damage | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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umelbumel
2026 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
That's what you get for having two good semi finals. | ||
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Niravroh
165 Posts
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Canada8989 Posts
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darklycid
3512 Posts
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IndyO
392 Posts
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2215 Posts
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
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Grollicus
Germany287 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Sorry I have given Maru the faith he can win one more game.... Wake up. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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TheOneAboveU
Germany3367 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:21 Grollicus wrote: For a GSL final that was too quick gg from maru. We didn't even see what happened there in the end T.T the game was as over as a game can be | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:21 Grollicus wrote: For a GSL final that was too quick gg from maru. We didn't even see what happened there in the end T.T He was super tilted. And he was never winning from that position on Zerganatha. Even soO would have won from there. | ||
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Solio1
26 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:21 Vindicare605 wrote: i fucking hate all of you that call the G5L cursed. You are the ones willing that into existence. Yeah, f*** you, you jinxing a**holes :D | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3117 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:22 Creager wrote: I really hate getting hyped up for these rare occasions and then it's soooo frustrating to watch. I guess you shouldn't get hyped for a Rogue finals | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:21 Grollicus wrote: For a GSL final that was too quick gg from maru. We didn't even see what happened there in the end T.T What else did we need to see? Maru lost 22 SCV's to slow (!) banelings and was too far behind already. Then he lost a CC to... lings only? The gg-timing was just fine, imo. The first 3 victories by Rogue were based on him executing an all-in properly, the last one was handed to him by Maru underperforming a lot. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:23 Charoisaur wrote: I guess you shouldn't get hyped for a Rogue finals No, I should stop getting hyped for Maru games. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:23 Anc13nt wrote: I think Rogue only has 1 final that wasn't very bad lol Somehow they keep getting worst | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Where are the people calling Terran OP? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
This isn't as bad as Rogue vs Zest. Stop lying. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
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darklycid
3512 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:24 deacon.frost wrote: So, IEM won by Zerg, Code S won by Zerg Where are the people calling Terran OP? I thought protoss is op | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:25 Fango wrote: Rogue will eternally suffer behind others in the GOAT discussion because who the hell wants to watch this shit. Most unlikeable player that isn't a convicted matchfixer. I like to watch him and I like him. Yeah, but on ladder and who cares about ladder | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:25 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: Tasteless: "This was a great finals." (directly after the Rogue interview) It was amazing if you determine the quality of a game by the number of roaches. | ||
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Starecat
938 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:21 IndyO wrote: Pretty trash final but as is tradition Everytime I hype a GSL finals it always ends like this. We have to count the good ones actually. Since Brood War return the trend seems to be caught with both games, the best matches aren't the finals. | ||
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:25 Vindicare605 wrote: This isn't as bad as Rogue vs Zest. Stop lying. Which wasn't as bad as Rogue vs Trap. Though really herO is the only one who ever got a good final out of Rogue. | ||
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tad
15 Posts
User was warned for this post. | ||
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
+ he finally lifted the trophy like a cool dude. Congrats Rogue. Maru will get the G5L next time. It will happen this year I am sure of it ! GGs | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:26 Elentos wrote: Which wasn't as bad as Rogue vs Trap. Though really herO is the only one who ever got a good final out of Rogue. True story but herO is the best so that's not surprising. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:26 Elentos wrote: Which wasn't as bad as Rogue vs Trap. Though really herO is the only one who ever got a good final out of Rogue. Stats-Rogue is my lowest point from me game wise, the one we just watch is truly a punch in the gut though | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:27 Argonauta wrote: Next season Rogue slumps and Maru gets his G5L trophy Please be true, please be true. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:28 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue is the GOAT. The level of domination he shows in the finals of the biggest tournaments and in BO7 in general is just unbelievable. And the fashion he does it in makes it even more ridiculous, and for me, in a really interesting way. + he finally lifted the trophy like a cool dude. Congrats Rogue. Maru will get the G5L next time. It will happen this year I am sure of it ! GGs Mau won't get the G5L trophy. Cursed Trophy. Deal with it. | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:29 deacon.frost wrote: Mau won't get the G5L trophy. Cursed Trophy. Deal with it. What if Rogue wins next season and then in season it's Maru vs Rogue again? Think about it | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:29 deacon.frost wrote: Mau won't get the G5L trophy. Cursed Trophy. Deal with it. Dude you better stop saying such cursed things. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:29 deacon.frost wrote: Mau won't get the G5L trophy. Cursed Trophy. Deal with it. Mvp is gonna come back and get it, first try | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:28 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue is the GOAT. The level of domination he shows in the finals of the biggest tournaments and in BO7 in general is just unbelievable. And the fashion he does it in makes it even more ridiculous, and for me, in a really interesting way. + he finally lifted the trophy like a cool dude. Congrats Rogue. Maru will get the G5L next time. It will happen this year I am sure of it ! GGs Can't happen. With the villain status Rogue has been working on, he has to be the first player to get the G5L. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:29 Creager wrote: At this point can just ANYONE win this damn G5L trophy already... Rogue just needs two more.  | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:28 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue is the GOAT. The level of domination he shows in the finals of the biggest tournaments and in BO7 in general is just unbelievable. And the fashion he does it in makes it even more ridiculous, and for me, in a really interesting way. + he finally lifted the trophy like a cool dude. Congrats Rogue. Maru will get the G5L next time. It will happen this year I am sure of it ! GGs personally I still don't view him as the GOAT due to him not winning anything during the Kespa era but given his resumee I think it's undeniable that he has a strong claim to that title | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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tad
15 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:29 Anc13nt wrote: lol Rogue is 14th best player on aligulac Rogue can struggle to reach final. But once he is there, it is 100% one-sided win in offline finals. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:30 nojok wrote: All those bad GSL finals remind me of Inca, they're bad but not Inca vs DRG bad. It's like if he set a standard everyone has been chasing since then but never reached. Inca vs. DRG? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:29 Jockmcplop wrote: I have to say I didn't enjoy a single moment of this final. It was just trash. I'm lying, I kind of enjoyed the ridiculous trash talk at the beginning. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:31 Anc13nt wrote: Rogue is LotV GOAT, Maru is overall GOAT imo I can get behind that | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:30 Vindicare605 wrote: Dude you better stop saying such cursed things. Dude, you better start to see the pattern. Mvp wins 4 titles. They create G5L trophy. Mvp never wins GSL again. Maru wins 4 titles in a row. They bring the G5L trophy. Maru never wins GSL again. If we wanna see Maru winning the G5L there need to be 2 4-time victors in the finals, so the trophy HAS TO GO to somebody and I dare to say it will be Rogue or Dark, not Maru. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
There's no justice in the world (jk, congrats to him) | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:29 Anc13nt wrote: lol Rogue is 14th best player on aligulac Aligulac is garbage, evidence #9999. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years. Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else. | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
I wouldn't even be mad :D | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:33 Fango wrote: Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years. Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else. Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again | ||
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Elentos
55553 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:33 deacon.frost wrote: Dude, you better start to see the pattern. Mvp wins 4 titles. They create G5L trophy. Mvp never wins GSL again. Maru wins 4 titles in a row. They bring the G5L trophy. Maru never wins GSL again. If we wanna see Maru winning the G5L there need to be 2 4-time victors in the finals, so the trophy HAS TO GO to somebody and I dare to say it will be Rogue or Dark, not Maru. You realize you are talking superstition right? That's not rational. Someone will win the G5L eventually I agree and Maru has the best chance of doing it. If Rogue is going to be the guy I'll be a little disappointed but if Maru can't win he's the next best thing. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:35 Charoisaur wrote: Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again I think its a bit sad tbh. SC2 is already dying with the pulling of Blizz support, the last thing we need is truly disappointing GSL finals putting everyone off watching. I'm not blaming Rogue, its just a shitty situation. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:35 Charoisaur wrote: Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again THis! Every other Zerg wins by mostly abusing queens and some other stuff. Only Rogue wins by abusing Roaches and nyduses repeatadly. On May 06 2021 20:37 Jockmcplop wrote: I think its a bit sad tbh. SC2 is already dying with the pulling of Blizz support, the last thing we need is truly disappointing GSL finals putting everyone off watching. I'm not blaming Rogue, its just a shitty situation. This poor state of the game is a long term issue, Rogue just shows it to everybody and Blizzard never truly addressed the real Zerg issues. That's why we have so many Zerg big titles in the past 4 years and so few other races victors. It's better to learn to live with it, because it won't change. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:35 Charoisaur wrote: Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again His killer instinct is even better than Life's. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:33 deacon.frost wrote: Dude, you better start to see the pattern. Mvp wins 4 titles. They create G5L trophy. Mvp never wins GSL again. Maru wins 4 titles in a row. They bring the G5L trophy. Maru never wins GSL again. If we wanna see Maru winning the G5L there need to be 2 4-time victors in the finals, so the trophy HAS TO GO to somebody and I dare to say it will be Rogue or Dark, not Maru. Curses are stupid and dont exist. Maru just needs to be more prepared and clutch (and ideally not meet Rogue again) and he will get it. And Mvp only has 3 GSL titles. GSL vs the world does not count. It would be an insult to CodeS to do so. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:39 MarianoSC2 wrote: Curses are stupid and dont exist. Maru just needs to be more prepared and clutch (and ideally not meet Rogue again) and he will get it. And Mvp only has 3 GSL titles. GSL vs the world does not count. It would be an insult to CodeS to do so. Mvp has 4 GSLs. It doesn't do anyone any good to change the rules now. Maru doesn't need that. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:37 deacon.frost wrote: THis! Every other Zerg wins by mostly abusing queens and some other stuff. Only Rogue wins by abusing Roaches and nyduses repeatadly. This poor state of the game is a long term issue, Rogue just shows it to everybody and Blizzard never truly addressed the real Zerg issues. That's why we have so many Zerg big titles in the past 4 years and so few other races victors. It's better to learn to live with it, because it won't change. Like I said, I don't blame rogue, that would be stupid, its just a sad reflection of the state of the game. I'm just bitter at having been hyped and let down. Anyway Ima stop complaining now. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:39 MarianoSC2 wrote: Curses are stupid and dont exist. Maru just needs to be more prepared and clutch (and ideally not meet Rogue again) and he will get it. And Mvp only has 3 GSL titles. GSL vs the world does not count. It would be an insult to CodeS to do so. Curses are stupid and don't exists. Maru didn't win any title after everybody started talking about the G5L trophy. Sure, it may be a coincidence. But why is one of the best player in the preparational format in the history of SC2 not prepared enough? Tell me? Maybe he's just lazy and fine with 2nd place.He lost his last G5L try to TY, so he won't meet TY in the finals again, but you cannot make the excuses forever | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4953 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:40 Vindicare605 wrote: Mvp has 4 GSLs. It doesn't do anyone any good to change the rules now. Maru doesn't need that. You can say whatever, but a GSL vs the world is not a real GSL, everybody knows it. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:35 Charoisaur wrote: Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains). Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:42 Argonauta wrote: You can say whatever, but a GSL vs the world is not a real GSL, everybody knows it. We can discuss this forever, but G5L trophy was created for Mvp and cursed Mvp. Now it curses Maru. Let's see what it does to a non Terran player who's nickname doesn't start with an 'M' | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:42 Argonauta wrote: You can say whatever, but a GSL vs the world is not a real GSL, everybody knows it. If that's the case Maru already has 5 GSLs because he won a Super Tournament and this whole conversation is pointless. Let's not debate semantics, Afreeca says Mvp has 4 and Maru has 4. Rogue has 3. Afreeca is the authority so let's just listen to what they have to say. | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:39 MarianoSC2 wrote: Curses are stupid and dont exist. Maru just needs to be more prepared and clutch (and ideally not meet Rogue again) and he will get it. And Mvp only has 3 GSL titles. GSL vs the world does not count. It would be an insult to CodeS to do so. But you do realize that the G5L trophy was specifically designed for Mvp, right? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:43 deacon.frost wrote: We can discuss this forever, but G5L trophy was created for Mvp and cursed Mvp. Now it curses Maru. Let's see what it does to a non Terran player who's nickname doesn't start with an 'M' You're trying to make me mad aren't you? it's working. I don't like any of the words you are writing. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:43 Fango wrote: Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains). Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win. well, Serral for example has much more success with playing standard than "abusing" allins and I don't think mechanics are the problem for him so I guess Rogue has just the gamesense and killer-instinct to set him apart from other players | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:46 Vindicare605 wrote: You're trying to make me mad aren't you? it's working. I don't like any of the words you are writing. Just don't let yourself get trolled here, although I know it's tough right now | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:47 Creager wrote: Just don't let yourself get trolled here, although I know it's tough right now Take my keyboard away. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him. As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:44 Vindicare605 wrote: If that's the case Maru already has 5 GSLs because he won a Super Tournament and this whole conversation is pointless. Let's not debate semantics, Afreeca says Mvp has 4 and Maru has 4. Rogue has 3. Afreeca is the authority so let's just listen to what they have to say. Don't you mean "if that's the case then Maru only has 4 GSLs if we only count Code S wins"? (That's the only statement that seems to make sense to what you were responding to). We can't go by what Afreeca says, because what they say is completely inconsistent. Counting MVP's GSL vs the World as a win towards G5L but NOT counting Maru's Super win towards G5L does NOT make any sense. GSL vs the World and GSL Super *are* GSL "title" wins. However, they don't count towards G5L, not anymore at least. Back then, MVP's G5L trophy included all GSL titles, not just Code S. It isn't like that anymore though. Only Code S count for Maru, so that's the current rule. MVP has 3 Code S, Maru has 4 Code S. If MVP were to come back today, he would need to win 2 more Code S. If we count MVP's GSL vs the World win, then Maru already won the G5L with his 4 Code S + 1 Super win. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final. Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him. As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him. no body of work? he won 3 GSLs and 3 world championships? unless you mean he doesn't have a lot of high finishes other than his championships, then fair point guess. Also there's no discussion about Maru being the best terran, he's the highest advancing terran in almost every tournament he enters | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:43 Fango wrote: Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains). Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win. Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments. Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups... | ||
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Jakroth
13 Posts
Maru will get his G5L. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Don't you mean "if that's the case then Maru only has 4 GSLs if we only count Code S wins"? We can't go by what Afreeca says, because what they say doesn't make sense. Counting MVP's GSL vs the World as a win towards G5L but NOT counting Maru's Super win towards G5l does NOT make any sense. GSL vs the World and GSL Super *are* GSL "title" wins. However, they don't count towards G5L, not anymore at least. MVP has 3 Code S, Maru has 4 Code S. If MVP were to come back today, he would need to win 2 more Code S. This is not about making sense. This is Afreeca's tournament they get to make the rules. Afreeca says if Maru wins one more it's special. So Afreeca gets to decide that he gets the special trophy. Mvp didn't get it, he had the chance to and he lost. At least Afreeca gave him a fair chance and he lost fair and square. The fact Maru has had multiple chances just speaks to how good HE is. No one else, not even Mvp has had multiple chances to win the crown, no matter how arbitrary the rules are for it. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:47 Creager wrote: Just don't let yourself get trolled here, although I know it's tough right now It's not trolling on my side. I am a big Maru fanboy, but I already accepted he will never win the Code S again. The curse is way too strong. I will get some hope if he faces somebody he can beat who has 4 titles as well. But until then he's not gonna win and I already made peace with that. | ||
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Andreas3
3 Posts
It is not an entertaining competitive RTS to watch anymore, I have followed GSL since season 1 and it gets worse every year, meanwhile Broodwar gets better and better every year. SC2 is too fast, the maps are too small and there seems to be some race imbalance or rather a lack of strategic innovations and playstyles. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:54 MarianoSC2 wrote: Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments. Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups... You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds. There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over. I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:59 Andreas3 wrote: Terrible finals but that is nothing new for SC2 tournaments. It is not an entertaining competitive RTS to watch anymore, I have followed GSL since season 1 and it gets worse every year, meanwhile Broodwar gets better and better every year. SC2 is too fast, the maps are too small and there seems to be some race imbalance or rather a lack of strategic innovations and playstyles. lol, maps too small xD Good joke, I laughed very much, thanks! | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final. Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him. As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him. Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:58 deacon.frost wrote: It's not trolling on my side. I am a big Maru fanboy, but I already accepted he will never win the Code S again. The curse is way too strong. I will get some hope if he faces somebody he can beat who has 4 titles as well. But until then he's not gonna win and I already made peace with that. grrrrrrrr Have some faith! | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States654 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:59 Fango wrote: You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds. There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over. I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever. why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:59 MarianoSC2 wrote: Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT He's trying to discredit the fact that Rogue has a record Serral can't hope to match too. He was salty before a game was even played today. | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:59 MarianoSC2 wrote: Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT it's Clem because he's number one on aligulac (Dave4-style argument) /s | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:59 MarianoSC2 wrote: Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:57 Vindicare605 wrote: This is not about making sense. This is Afreeca's tournament they get to make the rules. Afreeca says if Maru wins one more it's special. So Afreeca gets to decide that he gets the special trophy. Mvp didn't get it, he had the chance to and he lost. At least Afreeca gave him a fair chance and he lost fair and square. The fact Maru has had multiple chances just speaks to how good HE is. No one else, not even Mvp has had multiple chances to win the crown, no matter how arbitrary the rules are for it. Well I'm completely lost here then. Because the person you were responding to was saying that "GSL vs the World doesn't count towards G5L". And you said that if that's the case, then Maru's Super would count and Maru would already have G5L. The person you were responding to is saying that MVP should only be counted as 3 currently, and Maru counted as 4 currently, and that Maru is ahead of MVP. They are not saying Maru should already have G5L. It is only if we go by Afreeca's OLD rules that Maru may already have been awarded the G5L. However, today they only count Code S towards that. Maru NOT having G5L is proof of the updated ruling. G5L only counts Code S. You can still say that Maru has 5 GSL titles and MVP has 4 titles. But not all GSL titles count towards G5L. I do agree Maru > MVP, but I'm just trying to clarify about G5L here. | ||
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darklycid
3512 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:03 Andi_Goldberger wrote: why does every finals thread derail into GOAT discussions? :D not that I mind it its kind of entertaining Some people here have strong opinions (and we had a maru rogue finals who are both at least top 3 all time probably). | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:01 Charoisaur wrote: why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game? There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway. Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:03 Andi_Goldberger wrote: why does every finals thread derail into GOAT discussions? :D not that I mind it its kind of entertaining hard to say but it's true. I think it's because there's some feeling of history being made and hype surrounding the player who wins. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:02 Charoisaur wrote: tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:03 Andi_Goldberger wrote: why does every finals thread derail into GOAT discussions? :D not that I mind it its kind of entertaining This was a 3 time champ vs a 4 time champ. There were goat discussions before a single game was played today. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:03 Andi_Goldberger wrote: why does every finals thread derail into GOAT discussions? :D not that I mind it its kind of entertaining I feel like it definitely started when the Serral fan saw a foreigner win two weekenders against koreans and decided to proclaim him the GOAT because of it. Naturally such bad takes were going to ignite responses from anyone who watched the game before 2018. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:05 Vindicare605 wrote: Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game. How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards. | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:01 Crocolisk Dundee wrote: At this point I feel sorry for Rogue. He is a great player with many titles. But because the majority of his finals were one-sided and not very entertaining, he gets a lot of hate. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Rogue deserved this win today, he only utilized the tools available to him and his judgement was mostly amazing, if the crowbar works against Maru, then it's on Maru to find a way to stop that. It was just super frustrating to see 3 games in a row where he just couldn't deal with Rogue brute-forcing his victories. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
Later, they quarreled again and then included Rogue in discussion just to please their disappointing performances of their favorite players. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:08 deacon.frost wrote: How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards. And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2? | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:04 Fango wrote: There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway. Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors. But you are not making much sense. I think youre just getting lost in your Rogue hate. Which is fine, we all like different things. But if its build orders and rock-paper-scissors then why Dark usually gets destroyed by a good Terran when he tries these roach builds? Is he just unlucky? Or the Terrans are doing better builds against Dark on purpose? Its all super ridiculous man :D | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:04 Fango wrote: There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway. Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors. Any sufficiently strong strategic win looks like RPS victory. That's what makes it strong. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:08 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Funny how some people called Rogue lucky and overrated in previous rounds yeah I must admit I was insanely wrong. If something is unlikely, I have a bias for attributing to random luck but there is simply too much evidence (his 8-0 record and also the lopsidedness of his victories) at this point suggesting Rogue is just a god in finals. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:10 swarminfestor wrote: Now, Maru obsessive fans and Serral fans teaming up to discredit Rogue success just because he kept winning Bo7 streaks. Later, they quarelled again and then included Rogue in discussion just to please their disappointing performances of their favorite players . Oh come on. As the biggest Maru fan in this thread I haven't said a single thing to discredit Rogue. He's the best. Maru lost fair and square and I am super disappointed about it. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:12 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh come on. As the biggest Maru fan in this thread I haven't said a single thing to discredit Rogue. He's the best. Maru lost fair and square and I am super disappointed about it. I am refering to the obsessive one. You can see one from Maru side, and other from Serral.. I am also Maru fans. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:02 Charoisaur wrote: tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran Oh for sure, Clem is a beast. I just find it amusing how salty Xanion is every time Rogue gets another big win, because he knows Serral wont ever be considered the best Zerg thanks to that. No matter how many HomeStory cups and ESL EU he wins | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:10 Vindicare605 wrote: And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2? Flash was playing against top tier players and more than just 2 other players Most of his success comes form the KeSPA era, where it really wasn't just him and 2 other good players.But I didn't care for BW enough to care about Flash in SC2 and I didn't change my mind about BW even when Rain stepped into the BW scene, so I may be wrong. Anyway, my point is, that if you wanna match only foreigner lands, sure, they will become, because they're already winning evveryting in the foreigner lands. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:17 deacon.frost wrote: Flash was playing against top tier players and more than just 2 other players Most of his success comes form the KeSPA era, where it really wasn't just him and 2 other good players.That's why I say Clem and Reynor aren't there yet. Flash is the most skilled video game I have EVER seen. I believe that Reynor and Clem will someday be that good. Not yet. But eventually. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:18 Vindicare605 wrote: That's why I say Clem and Reynor aren't there yet. Flash is the most skilled video game I have EVER seen. I believe that Reynor and Clem will someday be that good. Not yet. But eventually. So skilled he won so many Code S titles, or Blizzcon titles or IEM titles Why do you bring Flash back to SC2? Why do you do this to him? He's great BW player, leave him there. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:10 MarianoSC2 wrote: But you are not making much sense. I think youre just getting lost in your Rogue hate. Which is fine, we all like different things. But if its build orders and rock-paper-scissors then why Dark usually gets destroyed by a good Terran when he tries these roach builds? Is he just unlucky? Or the Terrans are doing better builds against Dark on purpose? Its all super ridiculous man :D Dark goes for much quicker roach allins than Rogue I think. And he sucks at choosing when to do them. Rogue is, as I said a million times, the best at finding an abusive strat and pushing it to the limit. Dark isn't, he's just good tactically and mechanically. Half the time he plays suboptimally and makes the game harder for himself. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:20 deacon.frost wrote: So skilled he won so many Code S titles, or Blizzcon titles or IEM titles Why do you bring Flash back to SC2? Why do you do this to him? He's great BW player, leave him there.Did i miswrite something? I said Flash was the best in Brood War. I want Maru to be considered the Flash of SC2. Clem and Reynor have a chance to claim that title if Maru doesn't win it first. I know who I want to claim the title first but if he can't beat Rogue, if he can't win G5L. Clem and Reynor might take that title from him first. Not yet, but some day they might. | ||
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:10 Vindicare605 wrote: And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2? Flash was made GOAT of BW during an era when they could still pack stadiums for finals, and there were multiple hardcore KESPA teams. I don't know one way or another about what'll happen to the Korean SC2 scene, or what kind of respect Reynor and Clem will ultimately get in the GOAT conversation, but the comparison you're making doesn't make a lot of sense to me. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:04 Fango wrote: There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway. Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors. So when two hatch before pool loses to proxy rax you feel the win is undeserved? There are of course times when you are just unlucky but the times when a safe none greedy build goes into a BO loss is very very rare. There are few times when a player actually loses 100% to build order and there is nothing the player can do to stop it and those times its almost always due to a greedy opening. And what is a greedy opening if not a kind of greed cheese, you play an BO you know is an auto loss to certain aggresive builds because you want to end up with BO advantage against a players being safe. There is always the choice to not pay rock-paper-scissors and just play safe, don't go CC first, get a tank for safety, scout early, get a raven if you sniff possible DT and so on. If you want an advantage through rock-paper-scissors and you lose then its 100% something that the player could have prevented through a safe opening. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:10 lolfail9001 wrote: Any sufficiently strong strategic win looks like RPS victory. That's what makes it strong. You know what, fine. I'll just say I hate the fact someone can win purely based on these kinds of strategies. Yes it's a strategy game, but you shouldn't be able to win that many bo7 finals via overwhelming strategic choices to the point each game looks like RPS. Rogue won another final where I don't think the opponent did much of anything wrong, at least not until the final game. That hurts. And I don't think Rogue can do it if he didn't play zerg. Although TY did something similar in 2020. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:22 Vindicare605 wrote: Did i miswrite something? I said Flash was the best in Brood War. I want Maru to be considered the Flash of SC2. Clem and Reynor have a chance to claim that title if Maru doesn't win it first. I know who I want to claim the title first but if he can't beat Rogue, if he can't win G5L. Clem and Reynor might take that title from him first. Not yet, but some day they might. They don't have the time. Flash and JD were good when BW was at its peak, when there were hardcore teams. They missed the peak of SC2 already. And if the Blizzard's money stop flowing, I believe the scene will gets worse which means all their achievements after that will be negated. Also why the fuck are we talking about this in Reynor v Maru finals? Talk this in foreigner LR. I usually don't go there, you can keep the dream there. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:25 neutralrobot wrote: Flash was made GOAT of BW during an era when they could still pack stadiums for finals, and there were multiple hardcore KESPA teams. I don't know one way or another about what'll happen to the Korean SC2 scene, or what kind of respect Reynor and Clem will ultimately get in the GOAT conversation, but the comparison you're making doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Consider what I said. I don't think Clem and Reynor are at Flash's level. Of course they aren't. But someday. SOMEDAY they might be. I'm banking on their potential. They are better now than Maru was at their age. Maru who is the closest to a Flash of SC2 we have RIGHT NOW. Some day in the future. Clem and Reynor might pull it off. I'm not sure if they will but maybe? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:28 deacon.frost wrote: They don't have the time. Flash and JD were good when BW was at its peak, when there were hardcore teams. They missed the peak of SC2 already. And if the Blizzard's money stop flowing, I believe the scene will gets worse which means all their achievements after that will be negated. Also why the fuck are we talking about this in Reynor v Maru finals? Talk this in foreigner LR. I usually don't go there, you can keep the dream there. I see. You are not being as optimistic as I am about the future of the game. That's where we think differently. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:25 Shuffleblade wrote: So when two hatch before pool loses to proxy rax you feel the win is undeserved? The problem is that Rogue's allins often don't hit opponents playing specifically greedy. Terran and protoss players go for middle-of-the-road builds and then get walked over by Rogue's nydus/roach/baneling bust/whatever. It hurts to see someone play greedy and die to a cheese, but it hurts a lot more to see someone not play greedy and get rolled anyway to something they just didn't scout. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:28 Vindicare605 wrote: Consider what I said. I don't think Clem and Reynor are at Flash's level. Of course they aren't. But someday. SOMEDAY they might be. I'm banking on their potential. They are better now than Maru was at their age. Maru who is the closest to a Flash of SC2 we have RIGHT NOW. Some day in the future. Clem and Reynor might pull it off. I'm not sure if they will but maybe? the scene just isn't there anymore. GSL is a shadow of its former self and will probably not last that long anymore and then World Championships will be all they can win to add to their resumee. They just can't build that kind of legacy during this state of the scene | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:34 Charoisaur wrote: the scene just isn't there anymore. GSL is a shadow of its former self and will probably not last that long anymore and then World Championships will be all they can win to add to their resumee. They just can't build that kind of legacy during this state of the scene But if they want to, they can join any GSL(or other high profile tourney) and pull the random Flash card out and win a high profile tournament whileplaying random If they get high enough plenty of times ... | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:53 Charoisaur wrote: no body of work? he won 3 GSLs and 3 world championships? unless you mean he doesn't have a lot of high finishes other than his championships, then fair point guess. Also there's no discussion about Maru being the best terran, he's the highest advancing terran in almost every tournament he enters Of course, I mean that has almost nothing other than his titles which weight a lot but for sure don't make him a GOAT. Maru's performance today was bad by his standards, it's not representative of his TvZ prowess but yes, Clem is better at it right now. On May 06 2021 20:58 deacon.frost wrote: It's not trolling on my side. I am a big Maru fanboy, but I already accepted he will never win the Code S again. The curse is way too strong. I will get some hope if he faces somebody he can beat who has 4 titles as well. But until then he's not gonna win and I already made peace with that. Silly us, thinking that Pharaoh's curse could be the worst; fortunately deacon is enlightening us letting us know the G5L trophy truly is cursed, divine providence is avoiding Maru to win it because who knows what would happen if he actually touches it. On May 06 2021 21:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Oh for sure, Clem is a beast. I just find it amusing how salty Xanion is every time Rogue gets another big win, because he knows Serral wont ever be considered the best Zerg thanks to that. No matter how many HomeStory cups and ESL EU he wins Words that sound weird when written by someone who called Reynor a fluke for weeks when he narrowly defeated Maru while playing godlike. I generally don't like when players that shouldn't have reached the finals win one and I for sure don't like how insanely abusive and annoying Rogue's playstyle is in his finals. On May 06 2021 21:27 Fango wrote: You know what, fine. I'll just say I hate the fact someone can win purely based on these kinds of strategies. Yes it's a strategy game, but you shouldn't be able to win that many bo7 finals via overwhelming strategic choices to the point each game looks like RPS. Rogue won another final where I don't think the opponent did much of anything wrong, at least not until the final game. That hurts. And I don't think Rogue can do it if he didn't play zerg. Although TY did something similar in 2020. If Protoss had a player with the nerves and the abusiveness of Rogue the Big Book would be bigger by thousands of pages; the race Rogue plays matters only to a certain extent. The GOAT discussion became heated in 2018 because a player loved to an insane extent like Maru is fulfilled his fanboy's wildest dreams and transitioned to a true world class champion, winning enough to make him eligible for the title. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:28 Vindicare605 wrote: Consider what I said. I don't think Clem and Reynor are at Flash's level. Of course they aren't. But someday. SOMEDAY they might be. I'm banking on their potential. They are better now than Maru was at their age. Maru who is the closest to a Flash of SC2 we have RIGHT NOW. Some day in the future. Clem and Reynor might pull it off. I'm not sure if they will but maybe? Didn't Maru already won SSL and OSL at 19? And no, sc2 peak is behind us so they indeed don't have the time. Them winning international tournaments when 80% of top koreans stopped due to military service won't make them Flash-level gods in sc2... Maru already won a lot even before his 2018 epic run, when korea was at its peak. Rogue wasn't as good during the kespa era, so that plays against him, but he is performing very well after that. Finals was very disappointing though, Maru needed to survive the roach allins because Jaganatha / Romanticide would be muta hell... | ||
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tennisl
United Kingdom44 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 21:46 Poopi wrote: Didn't Maru already won SSL and OSL at 19? And no, sc2 peak is behind us so they indeed don't have the time. Them winning international tournaments when 80% of top koreans stopped due to military service won't make them Flash-level gods in sc2... Maru already won a lot even before his 2018 epic run, when korea was at its peak. Rogue wasn't as good during the kespa era, so that plays against him, but he is performing very well after that. Finals was very disappointing though, Maru needed to survive the roach allins because Jaganatha / Romanticide would be muta hell... As far as I am concerned Maru is already the Flash of SC2. Winning that stupid G5L trophy would just convince the doubters of that. There are some of them in this thread. | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:04 Vindicare605 wrote: As far as I am concerned Maru is already the Flash of SC2. Winning that stupid G5L trophy would just convince the doubters of that. There are some of them in this thread. The ultimate problem with SC2 is that players simply don't seem to be able to consistently perform that well (and by that I mean long streaks of domination against the competition, so pretty much being unbeatable). SC2 is way more volatile compared to BW so as sad as that might be we simply will never have a 'Flash of SC2'. I really consider Maru to be the best SC2 player, but even he can't consistently manage these coin-flip situations. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:12 Creager wrote: The ultimate problem with SC2 is that players simply don't seem to be able to consistently perform that well (and by that I mean long streaks of domination against the competition, so pretty much being unbeatable). SC2 is way more volatile compared to BW so as sad as that might be we simply will never have a 'Flash of SC2'. I really consider Maru to be the best SC2 player, but even he can't consistently manage these coin-flip situations. Edit: Maru and Rogue were more dominant than most champions of the past, especially compared to SC2 itself. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:18 Anc13nt wrote: i disagree. Maru and Rogue are more dominant than champions of the past. I agree. I call them the Flash and Jaedong of this game and I don't say that lightly. | ||
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iloveoof
12 Posts
Game 2 was bad luck with Rogue remaxing on roach instead of going up to 80 drone. Rogue's decision doesn't make much sense because if Maru stayed at home Rogue's army would have been smashed again for 0 gain. It was just a gamble from both players Game 3 Maru's scout was just a bit too late. 10sec faster and he would have had bunkers Game 4 Rogue did an earlier version of the roach all-in and Maru countered it taking near 0 damage because it wasn't as good a timing. Terran can be very vulnerable taking their 3rd Game 5 was instant loss because of the baneling runby. He probably thought his depots were raised at his 3rd and could afford some APM to chase the mutas This is not some crazy new strat from Rogue, Maru would have been a lot safer with a 2 banshee opening | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:20 Vindicare605 wrote: I agree. I call them the Flash and Jaedong of this game and I don't say that lightly. I would say Maru and Rogue have been close to as dominant as Jaedong and many of the other greats in BW but Flash was truly something else. Winning 4 out of 6 starleagues and being in the finals for the other 2 will probably never be matched. Maru did win 4 gsls in a row, which is also very impressive but it was in a less competitive era and he didn't do great in weekend tournaments, which have to count. | ||
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Creager
Germany1897 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:20 Vindicare605 wrote: I agree. I call them the Flash and Jaedong of this game and I don't say that lightly. Yeah, well at this point I'd say let's agree to disagree. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:26 Anc13nt wrote: I would say Maru and Rogue have been close to as dominant as Jaedong and many of the other greats in BW but Flash was truly something else. Winning 4 out of 6 starleagues and being in the finals for the other 2 will probably never be matched. Maru did win 4 gsls in a row, which is also very impressive but it was in a less competitive era and he didn't do great in weekend tournaments, which have to count. Flash is a god, there will never ever be anyone that good ever again. If I say "the Flash" of SC2, i mean it's the closest anyone can come to that level of greatness. | ||
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LemonyTang
United Kingdom428 Posts
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iloveoof
12 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:35 LemonyTang wrote: If Maru would simply go mech he would have won easily. There's a reason pros almost never go mech in TvZ. It's just inferior to bio. | ||
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tigera6
3409 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9674 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:48 iloveoof wrote: There's a reason pros almost never go mech in TvZ. It's just inferior to bio. apparently though, bio is inferior to roach ravager. | ||
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tigera6
3409 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:51 Jockmcplop wrote: apparently though, bio is inferior to roach ravager. Mech cant fight a thing in early game, you dont have enough Cyclone and Tank count to fight the Roach before you get into 3rd base with 3 Factories. The main things is to have a couple of Banshee around, and a Viking to get rid of the Overlord vision on high-ground. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24209 Posts
What a record, what a player. Of course the finals could have been more exciting, but this is a fine day to be a Rogue fan ! | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 06 2021 22:50 tigera6 wrote: Big Maru fan here, and I think he played very carelessly in the Final today. It was looked like, to me, that he just went thorugh the motion of TvZ, without any real strategy in the early game other than the Widow Mines + Helion run-by. He had no idea what was coming to hit him until it was outside of the door, and were losing most of the games because of the lack of vision. Exactly. Rogue just seemed better prepared. We have to remember that these guys know each other a lot. How many times was Maru caught off-guard by early aggression or various types of all-ins with Roaches or Mutas. His "careless" goofy attitude and lack of game sense or game perception has always been his biggest weakness. Basically what is stopping him from being absolute undisputed best player who ever touched the game and is "only" kinda the best. Obviously Rogue knows that and strategy and game sense being on opposite his absolute biggest strengths he just knew what to do to completely nullify and destabilize Maru. Even though he gifted him 1 game it was obvious Maru was super tilted, he played worse and worse as the series went on and completely crumbled in the last game. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On May 06 2021 18:13 stilt wrote: Rogue is supposedly strong in bo7 but I expect a victory for Maru, not only because of their recent opposition but the map pool is hard for Z. What a analyst x) GG sexi boi ! That said, Maru seemed to be caught off guard/out of position a bit too much by roach/ravagers. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
It felt like the lack of finals wins against a strong Terran (the best one at that) left a bit of an asterisk on his BO7 prowess, but after today there's no doubt: Rogue is the best BO7 strategic mastermind SC2 has seen. When Life left the scene, I thought we'd never see that kind of killer instinct in SC2 again, but here we are. I didn't expect Rogue to do it, but damn am I impressed and happy to be a Rogue fan today. | ||
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Calliope
297 Posts
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1691 Posts
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final. Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him. As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him. Agreed 100 percent Overrated and undeserving | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On May 07 2021 00:53 Calliope wrote: Are there no vetos of the maps? Only managed to catch glimpses today. How could he choose to play on Jagannatha? It is free muta reign, didn't we use to call it zerganatha? BO7. There are 7 maps. You do the math. Rogue had to play on Blackburn and won, this is how BO7 finals have always worked in a pool of 7 maps. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 07 2021 00:53 Calliope wrote: Are there no vetos of the maps? Only managed to catch glimpses today. How could he choose to play on Jagannatha? It is free muta reign, didn't we use to call it zerganatha? Zerganatha was Rogues pick obviously. There are no vetoes in bo7. And Marus choices made sense - Oxide first, Nautilus 2nd and 3rd he had to pick between Romanticide and Lightshade so he chose the lesser evil. I think people might be forgetting that GSL does not have Beckett, so the map pool is actually not as Terran favored as the only obvious T map is Oxide + Blackburn kind off (oddly Rogues 2nd map pick). And Zergs have Jaganatha and Lighshade with Romanticide being also a tiny bit better for Zerg I would say. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 07 2021 01:08 sneakyfox wrote: At this point the only way Rogue is not the GOAT is if LotV tournaments simply don't count for more than about half of what HotS tournaments do. It's more like the only way for Rogue to be the GOAT is if placements and deep runs don't count(only victories) and that no tournament outside of Katowice/BlizzCon and Code S is worth anything. | ||
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Rubicant1
115 Posts
There's no way anyone should question Rogue's resume at this point, but I think the saltiness comes from almost never getting well-played, back and forth macro games in his finals. It's hard to feel like an opponent isn't playing poorly when they're getting 4-0ed. But again, he's clearly causing that, so it's just this weird dichotomy that can be hard to process. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 07 2021 01:30 Xain0n wrote: It's more like the only way for Rogue to be the GOAT is if placements and deep runs don't count(only victories) and that no tournament outside of Katowice/BlizzCon and Code S is worth anything. Of course mostly victories count. If we had to weight it, victory would be a 10, runner up maybe 3 and any other placement is basically irrelevant (nice statistic to mention, but compared to a victory its nothing). And compared to Katowice/BlizzCon and Code S other tournaments were not relevant for most of SC2 until the rise or Reynor and now Clem and general improvement of foreigners. And even now these 3 are head, shoulders and torso above anything else. That is how it is and how it should be, what top competition is all about in any sport. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 07 2021 01:08 sneakyfox wrote: At this point the only way Rogue is not the GOAT is if LotV tournaments simply don't count for more than about half of what HotS tournaments do. Maru is still a six time Starleague winner. If we give Starleagues the same value as World Championships Rogue has won the same amount but Maru's other results are superior. Ofc you can factor in that Maru is not "complete" because he has never won a world championship but he was a Proleague god whereas Rogue only really performed great in the final Proleague season. Not regarding the strength of the era they were competing in I could see arguments for both but as it stands Maru should still be comfortably on top | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 07 2021 01:59 Charoisaur wrote: Maru is still a six time Starleague winner. If we give Starleagues the same value as World Championships Rogue has won the same amount but Maru's other results are superior. Ofc you can factor in that Maru is not "complete" because he has never won a world championship but he was a Proleague god whereas Rogue only really performed great in the final Proleague season. Not regarding the strength of the era they were competing in I could see arguments for both but as it stands Maru should still be comfortably on top Rogue won both the IEM and Blizzcon. Which is huge considering the hype around that. Not sure if any Code S/Starleague title can be weighted by the openess of the IEM. OTOH when I see some foreign fanboys I wonder if they know about any Korean tournaments at all, so maybe out of spite I would say they do | ||
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Husyelt
United States834 Posts
On May 07 2021 01:35 Rubicant1 wrote: Rogue is an all-time great and on the very short list of GOAT, but man, it certainly seems like many of his opponents in finals play well beneath their usual level. I'm sure this isn't the case in reality, but it FEELS that way. Granted, it's probably his tactical brilliance and godlike preparation causing that, but today's finals were awful to watch, as is usually the case with Rogue's finals. There's no way anyone should question Rogue's resume at this point, but I think the saltiness comes from almost never getting well-played, back and forth macro games in his finals. It's hard to feel like an opponent isn't playing poorly when they're getting 4-0ed. But again, he's clearly causing that, so it's just this weird dichotomy that can be hard to process. This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I think Rogue’s real strength is that he often puts forth a high risk playstyle, but knows how to ease in or out of it relatively well. In the games vs the Siege tanks here, all he has to do is snipe a few and back out / deny a third or fourth. Calling the attacks “all ins” is misjudging them. Because he can continually expand on inferior units, while the Terran cannot. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On May 07 2021 02:08 Bagration wrote: G5L is cursed lol GRRR!!!! Why is this such a thing! Maru will win G5L eventually! | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 07 2021 01:10 MarianoSC2 wrote: Zerganatha was Rogues pick obviously. There are no vetoes in bo7. And Marus choices made sense - Oxide first, Nautilus 2nd and 3rd he had to pick between Romanticide and Lightshade so he chose the lesser evil. I think people might be forgetting that GSL does not have Beckett, so the map pool is actually not as Terran favored as the only obvious T map is Oxide + Blackburn kind off (oddly Rogues 2nd map pick). And Zergs have Jaganatha and Lighshade with Romanticide being also a tiny bit better for Zerg I would say. Pretty crazy how much people have bought into this terran narrative that Jagannatha is a terrible map for TvZ. Is it good for zerg? Sure, somewhat. Is it the best zerg map in the pool? Pretty close to it. Is it terrible map like Oxide is for zerg in ZvT? Not at all. Terran has a decent winrate on it. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
Bless bad GSL finalsStill can´t believe they had the finals on a thursday, Maybe they knew what was comming GG Rogue, Maru will win soon enough | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On May 07 2021 02:48 SmoKim wrote: haven't seen this much passion on TL.net in a long time Bless bad GSL finalsStill can´t believe they had the finals on a thursday, Maybe they knew what was comming GG Rogue, Maru will win soon enough We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011 2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) - this one was especially bad, as Inca tried like 4 different failed DT rushes. To this day, his name is still synonymous with DTs 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-0 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) - just a ZvZ clinic by Nestea over his Zerg teammate 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
On May 07 2021 02:59 Bagration wrote: We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011 2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-2 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history I don't remember most of these series very well, but I remember Jjakji vs Leenock being extremely exciting and intense, each most games being a very different kind of game and many of them putting them through crazy situations and both players trying every little thing to clutch it. It was so exciting that I keep forgetting it didn't actually get to G7. It's definitely in my top GSL finals ever, probably Top 5. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 07 2021 02:59 Bagration wrote: We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011 2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-2 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history Wow I did not remember there were that many GSLs back in the day :o. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On May 07 2021 02:59 Bagration wrote: We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011 2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-2 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history I am still sad that July didn´t win vs MC Just checked Rogue liquidpedia. Holy **** he really has done it all hasn´t he? - 1st IEM Shanghai - 2x 1st GSL Super - 1st IEM World Championship - 1st WCS Global Finals - 1st IEM Katowice - 3x 1st GSL Thats 9 Premier wins. Is Rogue the Jaedong of SC2? Guess that depend if he keeps Imagine if Rogue meets Maru the next 2 season finals, winning the next once again, and then the battle for G5L in Season 3? Now that is hype  | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
On May 07 2021 03:13 SmoKim wrote: I am still sad that July didn´t win vs MC Just checked Rogue liquidpedia. Holy **** he really has done it all hasn´t he? - 1st IEM Shanghai - 2x 1st GSL Super - 1st IEM World Championship - 1st WCS Global Finals - 1st IEM Katowice - 3x 1st GSL Thats 9 Premier wins. Is Rogue the Jaedong of SC2? Guess that depend if he keeps Imagine if Rogue meets Maru the next 2 season finals, winning the next once again, and then the battle for G5L in Season 3? Now that is hype He won only 1 Super, but yeah his record is in contention for 2nd-3rd best, and an argument for #1 is reasonable if you put a lot of weight into Katowice/World Championships. (To me they're big and worth considerably more than a Code S, but not quite more than Maru's legacy yet as Maru won 2 Starleagues and WESG, and has placed 2nd-4th at a looot of Premier tournies compared to Rogue) Inno won 3 GSLs, 1 Vs the World, 1 WESG, 1 Starleague, and he won WCS Season 1 which is basically a WCS/Blizzcon World Championship. Based on Championships, Rogue definitely has a better record. But if you take into account all the 2nd-4th place finishes Inno has, I think there's an argument Inno is still #2 too. I think if Rogue wins another GSL, World Championship, or Katowice though, he has a strong argument for #1, since most people value championships wayyy more than 2nd places. (If I were to give it points, 1st place is 10 points, 2nd place is 4-5 points, 3rd-4th place is 2 points, but I think most would give less than I do). | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 07 2021 03:13 SmoKim wrote: I am still sad that July didn´t win vs MC Just checked Rogue liquidpedia. Holy **** he really has done it all hasn´t he? - 1st IEM Shanghai - 2x 1st GSL Super - 1st IEM World Championship - 1st WCS Global Finals - 1st IEM Katowice - 3x 1st GSL Thats 9 Premier wins. Is Rogue the Jaedong of SC2? Guess that depend if he keeps Imagine if Rogue meets Maru the next 2 season finals, winning the next once again, and then the battle for G5L in Season 3? Now that is hype Two Super Tournaments? There must be something wrong. Jaedong in Brood War was both consistent and dominant, the undisputed best Zerg of his era unlike Rogue. You'd better hope that Rogue never reaches another final, at least not another bo7 offline final, considering how unpleasant they are to watch; he's also already 27. | ||
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
On May 07 2021 02:59 Bagration wrote: We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011 2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) - this one was especially bad, as Inca tried like 4 different failed DT rushes. To this day, his name is still synonymous with DTs 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-0 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) - just a ZvZ clinic by Nestea over his Zerg teammate 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history I remember finding that Super Tournament with Polt and MMA pretty interesting, despite the score. It was the first time we saw infantry winning against sieged tank lines through good micro, IIRC. | ||
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Calliope
297 Posts
On May 07 2021 03:02 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I don't remember most of these series very well, but I remember Jjakji vs Leenock being extremely exciting and intense, each most games being a very different kind of game and many of them putting them through crazy situations and both players trying every little thing to clutch it. It was so exciting that I keep forgetting it didn't actually get to G7. It's definitely in my top GSL finals ever, probably Top 5. Me too, super fond memories of that one. Wasn't it the one where Jjakjji put marines on top of burried units and blew them up with siege tanks? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
On May 07 2021 03:56 Calliope wrote: Me too, super fond memories of that one. Wasn't it the one where Jjakjji put marines on top of burried units and blew them up with siege tanks? YEP, something like that, and also he was floating buildings around at one point trying to make it harder for Leenock to see/target fire, etc. Really forced to use every little thing possible to help. On May 07 2021 03:35 neutralrobot wrote: I remember finding that Super Tournament with Polt and MMA pretty interesting, despite the score. It was the first time we saw infantry winning against sieged tank lines through good micro, IIRC. Ooh shit, now I remember! It was when the triangle was complete, MMA > MVP > Polt > MMA. MVP's Mech, MMA's Marine Tank, and Polt's pure Bio style. It was a pretty time to be a proud fan, seeing such diversity of unit comps. It's too bad we don't see that in TvT anymore. We get lots of different viable units and strategies for sure, but it would be cool to see "Mech vs Marine Tank vs Pure Bio" dynamic again. | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10346 Posts
On May 07 2021 04:09 Obamarauder wrote: That game on oxide is so fucking dumb. Rogue loses first fight then stays on 66 drones and remaxes. Literally the only way he could win is if maru moved out and thats exactly what happened. Game 1 is a straight up build order loss and maru still hanged on for some time. Sorry but maru is the better player, rogue got quite lucky this series Rogue probably read that Maru would think Rogue would go back and drone and not do the same thing twice, and so he just remaxed and waited for Maru to be out of position and then attacked. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 07 2021 04:20 Morbidius wrote: The usual band of foreigner fanboys and Rogue haters have gathered once again, to enlighten us all on how bad and terrible the #1 in SC2 earnings and best Zerg of all time is. I'm glad they're here to teach us that winning the most prestigious tournaments in the world over and over again doesn't make a player good. You should all gather and write part 2 of the ''Rogue Patchzerg'' article. But... But... Clem would crush him. He is just lucky to keep avoiding him, or top Terrans in general. Maru is a noob compared to mighty Clem. If Serral Reynor or Clem decided to play GSL they would easily win every time ! And how many HSC or similar premieres has Rogue won? Ha ! Got you there, deluded fanboy | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 07 2021 03:13 SmoKim wrote: Just checked Rogue liquidpedia. Holy **** he really has done it all hasn´t he? - 2x 1st GSL Super So Rogue winner of the next Super Tournament already confirmed? | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 07 2021 04:30 MarianoSC2 wrote: But... But... Clem would crush him. He is just lucky to keep avoiding him, or top Terrans in general. Maru is a noob compared to mighty Clem. If Serral Reynor or Clem decided to play GSL they would easily win every time ! And how many HSC or similar premieres has Rogue won? Ha ! Got you there, deluded fanboy Clem just won an online late night tournament, now that's the mark of a good player. 3 GSLs and a Katowice in a year and half aren't enough to justify being called good. | ||
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On May 07 2021 03:34 Xain0n wrote: Two Super Tournaments? There must be something wrong. Jaedong in Brood War was both consistent and dominant, the undisputed best Zerg of his era unlike Rogue. You'd better hope that Rogue never reaches another final, at least not another bo7 offline final, considering how unpleasant they are to watch; he's also already 27. Rogue has won 8 absolutely top tier premier tournaments in 4 years, winning many of the finals in dominating fashion, and in the time period of basically 1 expansion became the highest earning SC2 pro. How is their any dispute as to whether he's the best Zerg of his era? What LotV Zerg has a record that actually matches that? Neither Serral nor Dark have nearly the number of equally prestigious wins under their belts from this time. And despite being 27 he still has some of the best multitasking in the world, so once he cleans off this post-win hangover I'm sure we'll see another crap final out of him  On May 07 2021 04:09 Obamarauder wrote: That game on oxide is so fucking dumb. Rogue loses first fight then stays on 66 drones and remaxes. Literally the only way he could win is if maru moved out and thats exactly what happened. Game 1 is a straight up build order loss and maru still hanged on for some time. Sorry but maru is the better player, rogue got quite lucky this series I bet other top players wished they got lucky 4 times in every offline premier best of 7 they've ever played Also game 2 was dumb, sure. But game 1 was a very well executed play by Rogue, perfect deflection of early pressure without revealing roaches. He even managed to hide his first round of roaches from the scan. I don't really see any single way Rogue could have played that better, and Maru was pretty complacent in his information gathering. Games 3 and 5 Rogue just played better. They were long games, Maru knew what was happening (or should have anyway), and he still just got rolled. I don't know what kind of goggles you need to watch those games and think "yup, Maru is playing better here" while said player is repeatedly missing slow runbys and in-vision nydus worms on the minimap. Maru's great, and his overall record is arguably the best of any SC2 player, but today even just the eye test, let alone the score, was all Rogue. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
Rogue’s clearly a great though, albeit a strange one I find it hard to place. Because he drags games to a certain weird zone, he rarely exhibits outstanding play vs an outstanding opponent on the day. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Only a fanboy could think Rogue would be the uncontested best Zerg or compare him to Brood War's Jaedong. By the way, I'm out of this thread; enjoy this obscene series and this redundant success, Rogue shouldn't have won this Code S but for sure deserved to win the finals. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8987 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On May 07 2021 05:57 Xain0n wrote: Rogue has the average quality of his successes and the pristine record in offline bo7 over Serral, literally nothing else; he didn't even earn more than Serral in LoTV. Only a fanboy could think Rogue would be the uncontested best Zerg or compare him to Brood War's Jaedong. By the way, I'm out of this thread; enjoy this obscene series and this redundant success, Rogue shouldn't have won this Code S but for sure deserved to win the finals. He has the wins though in all the prestige tournaments. It’s curious though I mean, historically thru to now soO was a monster, Dark to me just going back to now feels like a better, scarier player than Rogue in general. But Rogue keeps winning things, often via awful series. He has the trophies, he has that insane Bo7 record. Even when I feel soO and Dark were indisputably better in terms of results, Rogue wasn’t a million miles away and was always a great player. Not his fault but Rogue’s wins generally have, absolutely sucked. He doesn’t have a titantic series for the ages like Mvp vs Squirtle, or a really high quality series akin to Maru and Dark’s ST showdown, or even the storyline of converting Kong status to wins like soO or a Trap to make things memorable. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 07 2021 05:57 Xain0n wrote: Rogue has the average quality of his successes and the pristine record in offline bo7 over Serral, literally nothing else; he didn't even earn more than Serral in LoTV. Only a fanboy could think Rogue would be the uncontested best Zerg or compare him to Brood War's Jaedong. By the way, I'm out of this thread; enjoy this obscene series and this redundant success, Rogue shouldn't have won this Code S but for sure deserved to win the finals. You and your pathetic vitriol are so predictable, dissing Rogue whenever he wins something just because he's better than Serral and you know it. You only say he ''deserved'' to win the finals because again its against another player who's miles better than Serral. In fact you have been extremely bitter ever since the finals matchup was announced, god knows what sort of nonsense you would be spilling here if Maru had won. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
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antiheromarine
11 Posts
perhaps one day somebody will rise up and challenge him in an epic 7 game finals.. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On May 07 2021 06:42 Morbidius wrote: You and your pathetic vitriol are so predictable, dissing Rogue whenever he wins something just because he's better than Serral and you know it. You only say he ''deserved'' to win the finals because again its against another player who's miles better than Serral. In fact you have been extremely bitter ever since the finals matchup was announced, god knows what sort of nonsense you would be spilling here if Maru had won. Listing any of those folks as being ‘miles’ better than Serral is hyperbolic in the extreme. Not that I condone silly bashing of Rogue for his fantastic achievements | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On May 07 2021 07:00 Obamarauder wrote: Someone just said Rogue is better than Serral? I don’t even like Serral but that statement is hilarious LOL Look at their records. Serral winning a bunch of tournaments where Koreans weren't allowed to compete is the only reason there is even a discussion. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 07 2021 06:55 WombaT wrote: Listing any of those folks as being ‘miles’ better than Serral is hyperbolic in the extreme. Not that I condone silly bashing of Rogue for his fantastic achievements Saying that Rogue's achievements aren't better than Serral's and that, in any of case, it would be foolish to claim that he is the uncontested best Zerg is "silly bashing"? This is the first time I express my distaste for Rogue's way of winning his titles, I said literally nothing when he won his last Code S and Katowice; on the contrary, I am pretty sure I said that a player of Rogue's caliber couldn't end his career without a Code S final after he won his first. It's undeniable that Rogue is one of the greats, calling him GOAT and way better than Serral is instead excessive; be sure I am deeply convinced of what I am writing here. I expected much more from a Code S final between Maru vs Rogue and I was genuinely horrified by Rogue's abusiveness and Maru's subpar performance. If I were a player I would personally be much closer to Rogue's approach to the game but as a fan I absolutely hate it and I also feel that he has won more than he would have deserved in the last year and half judging by his level of play; in any of case, those are just my thoughts, and I have to admit his clutchness and surgical dissection of his opponents in those awful finals are to be admired. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1691 Posts
On May 07 2021 03:35 neutralrobot wrote: I remember finding that Super Tournament with Polt and MMA pretty interesting, despite the score. It was the first time we saw infantry winning against sieged tank lines through good micro, IIRC. MMA DRG omg... GOAT series | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44510 Posts
On May 07 2021 07:00 Obamarauder wrote: Someone just said Rogue is better than Serral? I don’t even like Serral but that statement is hilarious LOL Why is it hilarious? | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 07 2021 08:07 hiroshOne wrote: It's so funny to read...When Maru wins vs Zerg with mostly proxy rax every game- WHAT A FANTASTIC PLAYER, WHAT A SKILL AND MICRO, TACTICAL GENIUS. No one says this, you're making up a fake persona to try and counter people's justified frustration. People praise Maru for his skill and micro all the time, but not whenever he gets a quick win with proxies, in fact they usually criticise it. If Maru went up 3-0 doing a proxy rax allin every game people would be calling shit and it would be boring to watch. Sadly that's never happened. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 07 2021 07:15 QOGQOG wrote: Look at their records. Serral winning a bunch of tournaments where Koreans weren't allowed to compete is the only reason there is even a discussion. Serral is a better player. Rogue is better at winning tournaments. It's been this way for the last 4 years. If you made all players play a hundreds of games against each other and saw who came out on top, Serral probably does. But if you put each player into a single series against someone they know and said you win it or go home, Rogue wins that over anyone else. | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
On May 07 2021 09:17 sudete wrote: Calling roach all-ins abusive certainly feels like a throwback. It's not Rogue's fault that Maru chose to make dumb decisions especially on Oxide Dumb decision? Rogue was the one that took a huge gamble | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44510 Posts
On May 07 2021 09:47 Fango wrote: Serral is a better player. Rogue is better at winning tournaments. It's been this way for the last 4 years. If you made all players play a hundreds of games against each other and saw who came out on top, Serral probably does. But if you put each player into a single series against someone they know and said you win it or go home, Rogue wins that over anyone else. So when it comes to the games that matter, Rogue is the better player? | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States654 Posts
Just for my personal taste, I mean this is personal anyway. just chipping in my 5 cents. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 07 2021 09:47 Fango wrote: Serral is a better player. Rogue is better at winning tournaments. It's been this way for the last 4 years. If you made all players play a hundreds of games against each other and saw who came out on top, Serral probably does. But if you put each player into a single series against someone they know and said you win it or go home, Rogue wins that over anyone else. So Rogue is better at the only thing that pays any money in Starcraft? The very thing that makes Starcraft a competitive profession? The thing every SC2 pro devotes his entire time to win? Serral can keep his 9k mmr, no one gives a fuck and no one will pay him a zimbabwe dollar cent over it. You all sound just like Artosis/Idra claiming that he's better than the Protoss who just beat him, because if the game was a NR20 he would win. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On May 07 2021 10:14 Morbidius wrote: So Rogue is better at the only thing that pays any money in Starcraft? The very thing that makes Starcraft a competitive profession? The thing every SC2 pro devotes his entire time to win? Serral can keep his 9k mmr, no one gives a fuck and no one will pay him a zimbabwe dollar cent over it. You all sound just like Artosis/Idra claiming that he's better than the Protoss who just beat him, because if the game was a NR20 he would win. I mean they both won 900K, it's not like it worked out that much better for Rogue, one won multiple big tournament, the other hasn't had a bad finish in 3 years in any tournament. And I'd say being probably the best Starcraft player ever is pretty sweet on its own when you spend your whole life playing the game. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On May 07 2021 07:27 Xain0n wrote: Saying that Rogue's achievements aren't better than Serral's and that, in any of case, it would be foolish to claim that he is the uncontested best Zerg is "silly bashing"? This is the first time I express my distaste for Rogue's way of winning his titles, I said literally nothing when he won his last Code S and Katowice; on the contrary, I am pretty sure I said that a player of Rogue's caliber couldn't end his career without a Code S final after he won his first. It's undeniable that Rogue is one of the greats, calling him GOAT and way better than Serral is instead excessive; be sure I am deeply convinced of what I am writing here. I expected much more from a Code S final between Maru vs Rogue and I was genuinely horrified by Rogue's abusiveness and Maru's subpar performance. If I were a player I would personally be much closer to Rogue's approach to the game but as a fan I absolutely hate it and I also feel that he has won more than he would have deserved in the last year and half judging by his level of play; in any of case, those are just my thoughts, and I have to admit his clutchness and surgical dissection of his opponents in those awful finals are to be admired. come on dude, didn't you say you were out of this thread? On May 07 2021 05:57 Xain0n wrote: By the way, I'm out of this thread; enjoy this obscene series and this redundant success, Rogue shouldn't have won this Code S but for sure deserved to win the finals. it's super entertaining watching people arguing, I haven't seen such a heated debate in a long time tbh personally, as great as Serral is until he wins a GSL-type tournament I can't call him the GOAT. I just value GSL titles too much | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 07 2021 12:28 Whatson wrote: come on dude, didn't you say you were out of this thread? it's super entertaining watching people arguing, I haven't seen such a heated debate in a long time tbh personally, as great as Serral is until he wins a GSL-type tournament I can't call him the GOAT. I just value GSL titles too much Involving Serral, or any foreigner in a GOAT discussion is laughable. They will never come close to even be a top 5. Its pointless. As for Rogue, he is so much better than Serral as is Manchester City compared Leyton Orient. There is no comparison. Rogue could get eliminated in the first round of all the next tournaments and he would still be far superior. Its a joke, lets just stop this nonsense. | ||
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Niravroh
165 Posts
Outside of those two championships, the next most prestigious tournament is GSL, and Serral is again just out of the discussion since he doesn't want to come live in Korea to play in the GSL. Sure, Serral's won a bunch of the WCS events, but I don't think anyone will equate those to a GSL victory. And now Rogue has racked up 3 GSL Code S wins, tied for the most of any zerg, and second only to Maru in terms of total wins. Rogue has a legitimate chance to get the G5L, if he can stay motivated the year or two he has left before he has to go to the military. Idk, I like both of these players, and instead of categorizing players into a hard ranking list, I think it's more accurate to sort them into tiers, where both Rogue and Serral are SSS tier monsters you have to be able defeat in order to make a name for yourself. | ||
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yepjan
20 Posts
On May 07 2021 12:51 MarianoSC2 wrote: Involving Serral, or any foreigner in a GOAT discussion is laughable. They will never come close to even be a top 5. Its pointless. As for Rogue, he is so much better than Serral as is Manchester City compared Leyron Orient. There is no comparison. Rogue could get eliminated in the first round of all the next tournaments and he would still be far superior. Its a joke, lets just stop this nonsense. imagine being this delusional | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Does that sound like a GOAT to you? Winning in Korea when they 3 best players reside outside of Korea does not make you a GOAT contender. Even among the Koreans I would not rank him as a top 5 player. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On May 07 2021 14:31 MockHamill wrote: Saying that Rogue is the GOAT is a complete joke. He is the 3rd or 4th best Zerg and hold a 12 place on Aligulac. Does that sound like a GOAT to you? Winning in Korea when they 3 best players reside outside of Korea does not make you a GOAT contender. Even among the Koreans I would not rank him as a top 5 player. "Aligulac must be true because numbers and confirming my existing opinion. Rogue must be bad because I don't like him." Seriously. Aligulac doesn't accurately measure across regions. Honestly, it doesn't even do that will within regions. Clem is good, but is he really better than Serral or Reynor? Who's more likely to win a big tournament? Those rankings are not the word of god carved on holy tablets. And who cares if you don't think Rogue is top 5? Reality says otherwise. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
On May 07 2021 14:31 MockHamill wrote: Saying that Rogue is the GOAT is a complete joke. He is the 3rd or 4th best Zerg and hold a 12 place on Aligulac. Does that sound like a GOAT to you? Winning in Korea when they 3 best players reside outside of Korea does not make you a GOAT contender. Even among the Koreans I would not rank him as a top 5 player. 4th best? What Reynor and Dark are better than Rogue? No!? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 07 2021 14:31 MockHamill wrote: Saying that Rogue is the GOAT is a complete joke. He is the 3rd or 4th best Zerg and hold a 12 place on Aligulac. Does that sound like a GOAT to you? Winning in Korea when they 3 best players reside outside of Korea does not make you a GOAT contender. Even among the Koreans I would not rank him as a top 5 player. Nice trolling bro. Do you do that at parties? Calling 3-time world champion worse than 1-time world champion or a person, who didn't win anything cannot be serious. | ||
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hyuu
163 Posts
On May 07 2021 04:30 MarianoSC2 wrote: But... But... Clem would crush him. He is just lucky to keep avoiding him, or top Terrans in general. Maru is a noob compared to mighty Clem. If Serral Reynor or Clem decided to play GSL they would easily win every time ! And how many HSC or similar premieres has Rogue won? Ha ! Got you there, deluded fanboy How can we be sure they are foreigner fanboys/Rogue haters and that you are not korean fanboy Serral/Clem hater ? let's be honest, they, you and i are all fanboys here, let's just try to not be hater of anything. but to be fair the last statement is wrong, Clem faced Rogue very recently and won 2-0 | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6940 Posts
And all I can read about in this thread is how Maru is better (no he isn't, he would have won if he were) and stuff about Reynor, Serral and Clem... TL.net what have you become?  Congratz Rogue! Masterclass mindgames as well as top execution. Rogue for Goat | ||
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661
71 Posts
Congratz for Rogue! | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
And of course from time to time he gets lucky. He should have dropped out against Dream, no doubt about that. And still, even there he somehow found a way to get back into it. That‘s just part of the game. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 07 2021 17:20 MockHamill wrote: People overestimate tournament wins. Aligulac is better for showing real skill over time. Tournaments comes down to combination of skill, bracket luck and how good your are a particular day. Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better. Clem has 87% chance of beating Rogue in a bo7 on aligulac which I think is way too high. Before the final, Rogue was rated below heromarine and solar. Yes aligulac is useful (it predicted Serral's rise in 2018 pretty well) but it often overrates foreigners and people who play well in a lot of online tournaments. There was a time in 2017 when Neeb was the no. 1 player on aligulac but I don't think he was ever the no.1 player in the world, more like top 10-15. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On May 07 2021 16:14 hyuu wrote: How can we be sure they are foreigner fanboys/Rogue haters and that you are not korean fanboy Serral/Clem hater ? let's be honest, they, you and i are all fanboys here, let's just try to not be hater of anything. but to be fair the last statement is wrong, Clem faced Rogue very recently and won 2-0 To be fair, Clem is currently good at TvZ but not so in TvP and TvT. We can see him dropping many series against Zest or Cure and he haven't been tested yet facing other race beside Zerg in Bo7 of premier tournaments. Contrariwise, Rogue has won all his final matchups in all races, and Maru is the last race of the best Terran that he faced in the final. Clem is indeed new talent. But comparing his recent results with Maru who endured hardships over the years and won many championships over all races, and just happened to lose to Rogue, it is incorrect to say Clem is Terran GOAT over Maru. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 07 2021 17:20 MockHamill wrote: People overestimate tournament wins. Aligulac is better for showing real skill over time. Tournaments comes down to combination of skill, bracket luck and how good your are a particular day. Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better. I hope you realize that aligulac doesn’t compare well within regions, and even within region you can farm lower level players to improve your ranking. Clem ranking is probably inflated by the ESL cups, and he was successful vs Serral and Reynor recently, who also have good ranking. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
I agree that Serral is probably on average the better player in a ladder environment but Rogue is just better at winning tournaments (Serral also competed at every World Championship Rogue won but performed much worse except at the one he won) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On May 07 2021 17:26 Swisslink wrote: I don‘t like the GOAT discussion, especially when it comed to Rogue. Not because I don‘t think he deserves the status if we consider the results, but because he seems to have one major skill almost no one else does. Is his macro great? Of course, but there are probably better macro players than Rogue. Is his execution good? Of course, but there are probably better micro-players than rogue. Where he really shines is winning a series, though. While there are definitely better players on a game-to-game basis, in a longer series - and I don‘t think there‘s even room for discussion - there has never been a player who has matched Rogue‘s achievements. Whether it is pure preparation, intuition, his style or something else is hard to say, imo. However, he seems to be able to play a series rather than individual games and by doing so controlling the pace of an entire Bo7. And of course from time to time he gets lucky. He should have dropped out against Dream, no doubt about that. And still, even there he somehow found a way to get back into it. That‘s just part of the game. For sure he’s incredibly clutch, that’s his superpower and just generally very good. If there’s a player who’ll bring it in a final it’s Rogue. When it comes to Code S nowadays it is a bit less stacked than in the olden days and a decent bracket goes a long way, but this time around he had a pretty tough path too. He’s certainly ascended to the Pantheon of the Starcraft Gods, but up there there’s no real undisputed candidate for King, least as far as I can ascertain. SC2 just doesn’t have a Flash who had close to the whole package in terms of the Starcraft skillset, dominance and consistency over long periods. If I wanted a bloke to close out a bo7 finals I’m throwing Rogue out there, if I wanted a bloke to plan a path through a bracket, perhaps TY, if I wanted to see the peak of SC2 execution in action Maru’s coming off the bench and if I wanted someone to play 50 Bo3s against other top players Serral’s warming up. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 07 2021 19:12 Charoisaur wrote: he's exaggerating but I think nobody in their right mind should argue Serral's achievements are somehow superior to winning 3 World Championships, 3 GSLs and 2 other top tier tournaments. I agree that Serral is probably on average the better player in a ladder environment but Rogue is just better at winning tournaments (Serral also competed at every World Championship Rogue won but performed much worse except at the one he won) I think people disregard Dark & Rogue achievements / think Serral is always better than them (which is not always the case) because they play more ugly than him very often. They would play roach / ravager with not much finesse / force their way through some games, sometimes failing, while Serral will almost always go for macro games with regular unit comps. But being clutch & winning ugly does not mean you are bad, and playing "as should be", with more finesse, does not make you a champion, see Lambo. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 07 2021 19:12 Charoisaur wrote: he's exaggerating but I think nobody in their right mind should argue Serral's achievements are somehow superior to winning 3 World Championships, 3 GSLs and 2 other top tier tournaments. I agree that Serral is probably on average the better player in a ladder environment but Rogue is just better at winning tournaments (Serral also competed at every World Championship Rogue won but performed much worse except at the one he won) Rogue is better at winning tournaments and Serral has won many more(but also lost many more finals); Rogue is way more clutch and he's better at winning offline bo7. Since Rogue has three world championships you could say he's better at winning them but, unlike what you are saying, Serral performed slightly better than Rogue on average in the last five world championships(since he became a top player) and won just as much. Blizzcon 2018: Serral wins, Rogue ro4; Katowice 2019: Serral ro8, Rogue eliminated in the group stages; BlizzCon 2019: Serral ro4, Rogue ro8; Katowice 2020: Rogue wins, Serral ro4; Katowice 2021: Rogue ro8, Serral ro12. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 07 2021 19:23 Poopi wrote: I think people disregard Dark & Rogue achievements / think Serral is always better than them (which is not always the case) because they play more ugly than him very often. They would play roach / ravager with not much finesse / force their way through some games, sometimes failing, while Serral will almost always go for macro games with regular unit comps. But being clutch & winning ugly does not mean you are bad, and playing "as should be", with more finesse, does not make you a champion, see Lambo. Play more ugly is such a subjective term... For me, there is no "uglier" playstyle than Serrals. Same boring crap every series and if he tries to change things up with something interesting, mix in some cheese or early aggression, he usually fails horribly. One of the most boring players to watch, for me. I think I even heard him say somewhere that he really likes Dark and Rogue playstyle, but he just cant play like that. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 07 2021 19:46 MarianoSC2 wrote: Play more ugly is such a subjective term... For me, there is no "uglier" playstyle than Serrals. Same boring crap every series and if he tries to change things up with something interesting, mix in some cheese or early aggression, he usually fails horribly. One of the most boring players to watch, for me. I think I even heard him say somewhere that he really likes Dark and Rogue playstyle, but he just cant play like that. Oh yeah for sure it's kinda subjective, but I am pretty sure that is why some people here seem to think Serral is somehow better than Rogue no matter the huge difference in palmares | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 07 2021 19:44 Xain0n wrote: Rogue is better at winning tournaments and Rogue is way more clutch and he's better I corrected that for you, as the rest of the post is complete gibberish. You're welcome | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6940 Posts
On May 07 2021 17:20 MockHamill wrote: People overestimate tournament wins. Aligulac is better for showing real skill over time. Tournaments comes down to combination of skill, bracket luck and how good your are a particular day. Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better. I am watching a lot of tennis and I am the biggest Federer fanboy ever and I couldn't care less about who is ranked where. Grand Slams are everything! I think your "fact" is pretty much your personal "opinion" and you have a right to that. But that is all. Nobody I know who cares about tennis, cares about rank for that matter | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 07 2021 20:04 Harris1st wrote: I am watching a lot of tennis and I am the biggest Federer fanboy ever and I couldn't care less about who is ranked where. Grand Slams are everything! I think your "fact" is pretty much your personal "opinion" and you have a right to that. But that is all. Nobody I know who cares about tennis, cares about rank for that matter The fun point though is that aligulac just is not a league? The equivalent would be WCS / EPT points ranking for each region. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On May 07 2021 20:04 Harris1st wrote: I am watching a lot of tennis and I am the biggest Federer fanboy ever and I couldn't care less about who is ranked where. Grand Slams are everything! I think your "fact" is pretty much your personal "opinion" and you have a right to that. But that is all. Nobody I know who cares about tennis, cares about rank for that matter Greatness isn’t an absolute measure of anything, it encompasses many elements and is incredibly subjective. I’m with you on Fed, but I think it’s a combination of how dominant he was at his peak, his sheer skill, style and elegance and also competing through such a span and relative oldness. In terms of slams he’ll probably be overtaken, he may remain my greatest for those reasons. Other mitigating factors are in play as well, notably Wimbledon slowing the courts down to enable pure baseliners to be more competitive. I don’t think there’s any way Nadal, or basically anyone else could have stopped Federer winning another few Wimbledons if the courts were as quick as in the Sampras era. Conversely Nadal’s strongest surface over at Roland Garros still plays to his strengths. Being the best at something competitive, is more easily measurable, except we can’t really measure it in SC2 as racial disparities and patch changes alter this all the time. Ronnie O’Sullivan, or Lionel Messi are clearly the best at their sport, Ronnie in full flow is unbelievable and is capable of things others aren’t, and is even handy playing left-handed. Messi goes without comment, but this doesn’t necessarily make them the greatest. In Starcraft 1 Flash is both the best and close to being the undisputed GOAT as well. I’m sure some will argue it’s someone else but it’s as close to unanimous as you can get in such a subjective judgement. In SC2? I’m in the camp there’s quite a few in the conversation for the GOAT, and even the best is quite tricky to ascertain as races are a thing. Maru’s skill at basically everything puts him probably up there for me as the best SC2 player, he does amazing things mechanically in every area. Serral on his monster streak showed great mechanical chops but on the other side of the game most showcased an incredible consistency in reading games and responding correctly that was pretty astounding too. Mvp at his peak in an earlier phase of the game was just better at the game than everyone, but his greatness was cemented by how he performed when he wasn’t. I think both Life and the peak form of Inno had phases were they just were the best player skill wise. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 07 2021 23:05 WombaT wrote: Greatness isn’t an absolute measure of anything, it encompasses many elements and is incredibly subjective. I’m with you on Fed, but I think it’s a combination of how dominant he was at his peak, his sheer skill, style and elegance and also competing through such a span and relative oldness. In terms of slams he’ll probably be overtaken, he may remain my greatest for those reasons. Other mitigating factors are in play as well, notably Wimbledon slowing the courts down to enable pure baseliners to be more competitive. I don’t think there’s any way Nadal, or basically anyone else could have stopped Federer winning another few Wimbledons if the courts were as quick as in the Sampras era. Conversely Nadal’s strongest surface over at Roland Garros still plays to his strengths. Being the best at something competitive, is more easily measurable, except we can’t really measure it in SC2 as racial disparities and patch changes alter this all the time. Ronnie O’Sullivan, or Lionel Messi are clearly the best at their sport, Ronnie in full flow is unbelievable and is capable of things others aren’t, and is even handy playing left-handed. Messi goes without comment, but this doesn’t necessarily make them the greatest. In Starcraft 1 Flash is both the best and close to being the undisputed GOAT as well. I’m sure some will argue it’s someone else but it’s as close to unanimous as you can get in such a subjective judgement. In SC2? I’m in the camp there’s quite a few in the conversation for the GOAT, and even the best is quite tricky to ascertain as races are a thing. Maru’s skill at basically everything puts him probably up there for me as the best SC2 player, he does amazing things mechanically in every area. Serral on his monster streak showed great mechanical chops but on the other side of the game most showcased an incredible consistency in reading games and responding correctly that was pretty astounding too. Mvp at his peak in an earlier phase of the game was just better at the game than everyone, but his greatness was cemented by how he performed when he wasn’t. I think both Life and the peak form of Inno had phases were they just were the best player skill wise. lol, using Messi as an example of clearly being the best when the last decade is in the name of - Ronaldo v Messi. Do you like watch football at all? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On May 08 2021 00:27 deacon.frost wrote: lol, using Messi as an example of clearly being the best when the last decade is in the name of - Ronaldo v Messi. Do you like watch football at all? Well yes, Messi is clearly the better footballer, he is better at football. Having watched them both plenty over the years I’m not sure why this is even under debate. Who is the greater footballer though? Hey now there’s a spicy topic where factors like being clutch, dragging poor teams to glory and whatnot all come into play, and yeah then Ronaldo can very much have his say in that debate. Likewise if pushed I’d say Maru firing on all cylinders is the best SC2 player out there, but whether he’s the greatest is much more debatable | ||
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Gescom
Canada3440 Posts
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LTCM
174 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 08 2021 01:00 LTCM wrote: Best vs most accomplished is what you two are arguing. The most skilled player isn't always the one that wins the most. Why is the most skilled player in a 1v1 game not winning? I can understand why the most skilled player can have bad achievements in the team sports, but in individual? Whut? | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 08 2021 01:04 deacon.frost wrote: Why is the most skilled player in a 1v1 game not winning? I can understand why the most skilled player can have bad achievements in the team sports, but in individual? Whut? Since there are three races and the balance is not perfect / different between patches, it can be an argument for why the most skilled player is not necessarily winning. However it does not work when comparing players of the same race. But over time (at least when blizzard still patched its game) this should correct itself. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 08 2021 01:14 Poopi wrote: Since there are three races and the balance is not perfect / different between patches, it can be an argument for why the most skilled player is not necessarily winning. However it does not work when comparing players of the same race. But over time (at least when blizzard still patched its game) this should correct itself. also, it does make sense that someone could be super skilled but not winning anything, that would be called underachieving or choking. Players like Canata and Rain were known to be very strong during practice games, even though they never made any super deep runs in the pro days. Another example is Flash in 2009 won no starleagues. He had a 74.1% winrate (which is godlike in BW and unheard of in SC2), which is almost the same as his 75.0% winrate in 2010, his peak. Bisu didn't win any starleagues in 2009 or 2011 but he was a proleague god in those years. Even though they didn't win any starleagues, they would likely be favoured to beat basically anyone in a practice and proleague setting but tournament setting is different thing altogether. | ||
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mpmaley86
115 Posts
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Poaktree
165 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1762 Posts
On May 08 2021 04:11 Poaktree wrote: There is no GOAT in SC2. Plz let's move on. Depends. Bo1 goat is maxpax bo3 Clem. Bo5 serral bo7 rogue (as he once again proved tonight). | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44510 Posts
On May 08 2021 06:14 CicadaSC wrote: Depends. Bo1 goat is maxpax bo3 Clem. Bo5 serral bo7 rogue (as he once again proved tonight). I feel like you're just arbitrarily pairing odd numbers with players who you like. Bo1 GoaT? Really? | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6940 Posts
On May 08 2021 00:49 WombaT wrote: Well yes, Messi is clearly the better footballer, he is better at football. Having watched them both plenty over the years I’m not sure why this is even under debate. Who is the greater footballer though? Hey now there’s a spicy topic where factors like being clutch, dragging poor teams to glory and whatnot all come into play, and yeah then Ronaldo can very much have his say in that debate. Likewise if pushed I’d say Maru firing on all cylinders is the best SC2 player out there, but whether he’s the greatest is much more debatable Very nicely put! Couldn't agree more | ||
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LordYama
United States370 Posts
I don't think it's fair to say that Rogue's tournament wins never feature beautiful games. I became a fan of Rogue in his miracle year running up to when he won BlizzCon and I thought there were a number of beautiful macro games in those tournaments. The whole reason I became a fan of Rogue that year is that he seemed like the first Zerg who had some lategame builds and strats that seemed actually solid against stuff like maxed out mech and Protoss armies, where lategame Zerg actually looked viable. Serral subsequently took that a step further and refined it, but Rogue's games during that run weren't largely defined by roach aggression etc. I felt the whole late rounds of this Code S felt like most of the top dogs were really not in their best form, games seemed to feature allins much more frequently than is even usual. But I didn't really understand what happened in the final. Have Dark and Reynor (and now Rogue) helped rewrite the meta regarding roach ravager vs. bio? I always thought it was terrible and it seemed strange to me that a great player like Dark would favor them so much when it felt like if the bio Terran survives past minute X then he automatically wins. It feels like Rogue identified a particular hole in a typical Maru macro game where he could hit hard with a max or near max roach ravager army and even if a kill wasn't immediately achieved, smother Terran's economy bad enough to allow him to keep the pressure on and win with waves of big armies. It felt strange, I associate that kind of heavy roach play with Dark and Reynor, not Rogue usually. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On May 08 2021 06:14 CicadaSC wrote: Depends. Bo1 goat is maxpax bo3 Clem. Bo5 serral bo7 rogue (as he once again proved tonight). B1 goat are probably Serral and Maru in LotV since they were afaik (please correct if the records have been beaten since then) the highest MMR ever on their respective ladders. WoL is kinda hard because MMR was hidden but Bomber and MarineKing were practice / ladder gods (idk which Protoss / zerg were at the time) HotS the top proleague players are also a good indication of bo1 capabilities, I know Maru was very strong here but sOs and Roro were also fantasy league killers iirc? Obviously for evaluating bo1 capabilities team leagues are the best metric, and proleague was the highest level. Nation wars is a nice way to look at it but imo less meaningful than ladder since it did not happen often enough / lots of mismatchs contrary to GSTL / Proleague where even the relatively weak players had a shot at winning. Since there was not gstl/proleague in LotV, ladder seems like a good way to gauge bo1 « greatness », although it’s a bit silly to categorize GOATs depending on BoX. Goat by foreigners / Koreans or race GOAT seem more interesting categorization imho. | ||
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Niravroh
165 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
On May 08 2021 09:35 Niravroh wrote: If nothing else, you can say that Rogue at least gets the community "engaged" lol. This thread has about double the number of comments as the Maru vs TY final from last year. Maybe Rogue can generate enough salt to keep this game alive haha. I’d hazard a guess it’s as much due to it being a more natural tangent for Serral’s name to appear and with it the eternal battle between his fans and anti-fans | ||
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On May 08 2021 12:24 TheFish7 wrote: Rogue's playstyle reminded me of Stephano's in his prime, when he'd go for those super fast near-maxed out roach rushes and just keep throwing roaches at them until they died. I wonder what Maru might've done differently to survive. Artosis joked about 2-port banshee but I thought hey, maybe not a bad idea in this scenario. In any case, I guess Rogue really came prepared. There is a lot of hard counters to the build but it comes down to either multiple factories for tank production or multiple starports for banshee production. But the problem is can you scout it early enough to be able to adjust your build? I suspect not, but I am not sure. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
On May 08 2021 12:24 TheFish7 wrote: Rogue's playstyle reminded me of Stephano's in his prime, when he'd go for those super fast near-maxed out roach rushes and just keep throwing roaches at them until they died. I wonder what Maru might've done differently to survive. Artosis joked about 2-port banshee but I thought hey, maybe not a bad idea in this scenario. In any case, I guess Rogue really came prepared. I mean the first 2 games were basically build-order losses as Maru went for fast drilling claws in the first game and a 2 base bio push in the 2nd. Just unfortunate for him, after that it seemed like he was tilted | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
On May 08 2021 12:24 TheFish7 wrote: Rogue's playstyle reminded me of Stephano's in his prime, when he'd go for those super fast near-maxed out roach rushes and just keep throwing roaches at them until they died. I wonder what Maru might've done differently to survive. Artosis joked about 2-port banshee but I thought hey, maybe not a bad idea in this scenario. In any case, I guess Rogue really came prepared. Its a build order loss both games. Nothing maru could do | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On May 09 2021 02:27 Obamarauder wrote: Its a build order loss both games. Nothing maru could do The first game definitely, not too sure about the second though. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25573 Posts
Crucially this was not an instance of Rogue’s smart play, although we did see plenty of it in the series. From what I could tell he didn’t get vision to know Maru’s army had moved, he was attacking anyway, probably into a meat grinder, and Mary didn’t see Rogue’s army movement either. We’ve seen it a million times in PvZ, roach ravager is held for a few waves, Zerg player knows it shouldn’t work to try again but has to as options to transition are limited. Both Mary and Rogue made good decisions based on their cards and what info they had, but it worked out very badly for the former. I think on balance Rogue had the measure of Maru on the day for sure, but I don’t think Maru was quite as lost as the score line might make it look either. | ||
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Niravroh
165 Posts
You have to put him on the back foot so that he has to fall back on his safe macro play. If you give him a map or two, he has way too much range and way too many builds prepared. There is no way you'll be able to hold everything unless you're REALLY good or get really lucky. That's part of what happened game 4. Rogue just threw some shit out there. If it worked, then cool easy win. If not, then no worries, he's still ahead, and he can try something different in the next game. It's exactly what happened against Stats as well. I love how strategic he is, even if it leads to shitty series. He's getting close to 28 though, so idk if he can get the G5L before he has to go to the military. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
It's just a pity that Maru just straight up died to Rogue's 'first line of attack'. If Maru had deflected the roach-ravager play earlier, perhaps the whole series would've been more dynamic and exciting. We just assume Rogue was being abusive and one-dimensional based on what we saw play out in the games as they transpired, and not what he planned in his head. Yes, Rogue's abusive play often wins the series with his first strike. But it's not fair to dismiss him as being a boring one-trick-pony. Despite the beatdowns, I'm really starting to appreciate Rogue's exploitative style of play. There's more to his gameplay than meets the eye. We've seen Rogue throwing out all kinds of funky builds and play in the past. He has big brains, as well as big balls. | ||
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Jakroth
13 Posts
On May 09 2021 14:49 RKC wrote: Despite the beatdowns, I'm really starting to appreciate Rogue's exploitative style of play. There's more to his gameplay than meets the eye. We've seen Rogue throwing out all kinds of funky builds and play in the past. He has big brains, as well as big balls. I feel like Rogue and Zest may have been the most innovative in LotV, in terms of getting races nerfed by revealing imbalances. Did Rogue get Investors nerfed? (Probably Serral helped too!) Just thinking about that final vs Trap. Did Rogue get Hydras nerfed after BlizzCon 2017? | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 09 2021 16:34 Jakroth wrote: I feel like Rogue and Zest may have been the most innovative in LotV, in terms of getting races nerfed by revealing imbalances. Did Rogue get Investors nerfed? (Probably Serral helped too!) Just thinking about that final vs Trap. Did Rogue get Hydras nerfed after BlizzCon 2017? lol I remember that final vs trap. He made infestors look like the most broken thing ever. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On May 09 2021 16:34 Jakroth wrote: I feel like Rogue and Zest may have been the most innovative in LotV, in terms of getting races nerfed by revealing imbalances. Did Rogue get Investors nerfed? (Probably Serral helped too!) Just thinking about that final vs Trap. Did Rogue get Hydras nerfed after BlizzCon 2017? Yes, two units got nerfed after Rogue made them massively which were Infestors and Nydus Worm. The most notable thing was the Infested Terran got replaced by Microbial Shrouds. I was not sure about the Hydra nerf. Raven's anti-armored missile got nerfed in Blizzcon 2017 because of Maru. | ||
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 09 2021 17:16 Anc13nt wrote: lol I remember that final vs trap. He made infestors look like the most broken thing ever. Yeah, Zest is my fave Toss in last 2-3 years (after Classic joined the army). Stats just plays too straight-up and mechanical. Trap is a joy to watch as well, but he still lacks the creativity and clutchness of peak Zest (that said, Trap is objectively better than Zest in LoTV due to mechanics and execution). Edit: Rogue and Zest is just pure chaos, YOLO, devil-may-care, go-hard-or-go-home mindset. They don't mind pulling off something crazy, even if it fails and makes them look as fools. That's what makes them clutch. | ||
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speakerbox
Canada453 Posts
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Niravroh
165 Posts
On May 10 2021 13:28 speakerbox wrote: i didnt find the finals as bad as it seems everyone else did.. i guess i dont know what good starcraft looks like I quite enjoyed it too. I think most people want their Starcraft to be a bit more of a back and forth, both in terms of how the games go and in terms of match score. In this series, it was mostly Rogue smashing Maru's face in with little to no chances of Maru coming back. Similarly, the one game that Rogue lost was just as much of a smashing. There wasn't much tension for most of the games, as well as in the series. Like I said, I had a great time, but I can see why others are disappointed. | ||
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