On May 06 2021 20:25 Fango wrote: Rogue will eternally suffer behind others in the GOAT discussion because who the hell wants to watch this shit. Most unlikeable player that isn't a convicted matchfixer.
I like to watch him and I like him.
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years.
Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else.
Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again
Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains).
Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win.
Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments.
Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups...
You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds.
There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over.
I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever.
why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game?
There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway.
Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors.
Any sufficiently strong strategic win looks like RPS victory. That's what makes it strong.
On May 06 2021 21:08 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Funny how some people called Rogue lucky and overrated in previous rounds
yeah I must admit I was insanely wrong. If something is unlikely, I have a bias for attributing to random luck but there is simply too much evidence (his 8-0 record and also the lopsidedness of his victories) at this point suggesting Rogue is just a god in finals.
On May 06 2021 21:10 swarminfestor wrote: Now, Maru obsessive fans and Serral fans teaming up to discredit Rogue success just because he kept winning Bo7 streaks.
Later, they quarelled again and then included Rogue in discussion just to please their disappointing performances of their favorite players .
Oh come on. As the biggest Maru fan in this thread I haven't said a single thing to discredit Rogue. He's the best. Maru lost fair and square and I am super disappointed about it.
On May 06 2021 21:10 swarminfestor wrote: Now, Maru obsessive fans and Serral fans teaming up to discredit Rogue success just because he kept winning Bo7 streaks.
Later, they quarelled again and then included Rogue in discussion just to please their disappointing performances of their favorite players .
Oh come on. As the biggest Maru fan in this thread I haven't said a single thing to discredit Rogue. He's the best. Maru lost fair and square and I am super disappointed about it.
I am refering to the obsessive one. You can see one from Maru side, and other from Serral.. I am also Maru fans.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Oh for sure, Clem is a beast. I just find it amusing how salty Xanion is every time Rogue gets another big win, because he knows Serral wont ever be considered the best Zerg thanks to that. No matter how many HomeStory cups and ESL EU he wins
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was playing against top tier players and more than just 2 other players Most of his success comes form the KeSPA era, where it really wasn't just him and 2 other good players.
But I didn't care for BW enough to care about Flash in SC2 and I didn't change my mind about BW even when Rain stepped into the BW scene, so I may be wrong.
Anyway, my point is, that if you wanna match only foreigner lands, sure, they will become, because they're already winning evveryting in the foreigner lands.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was playing against top tier players and more than just 2 other players Most of his success comes form the KeSPA era, where it really wasn't just him and 2 other good players.
That's why I say Clem and Reynor aren't there yet. Flash is the most skilled video game I have EVER seen. I believe that Reynor and Clem will someday be that good. Not yet. But eventually.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was playing against top tier players and more than just 2 other players Most of his success comes form the KeSPA era, where it really wasn't just him and 2 other good players.
That's why I say Clem and Reynor aren't there yet. Flash is the most skilled video game I have EVER seen. I believe that Reynor and Clem will someday be that good. Not yet. But eventually.
So skilled he won so many Code S titles, or Blizzcon titles or IEM titles
Why do you bring Flash back to SC2? Why do you do this to him? He's great BW player, leave him there.
On May 06 2021 20:25 Fango wrote: Rogue will eternally suffer behind others in the GOAT discussion because who the hell wants to watch this shit. Most unlikeable player that isn't a convicted matchfixer.
I like to watch him and I like him.
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years.
Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else.
Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again
Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains).
Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win.
Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments.
Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups...
You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds.
There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over.
I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever.
why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game?
There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway.
Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors.
But you are not making much sense. I think youre just getting lost in your Rogue hate. Which is fine, we all like different things. But if its build orders and rock-paper-scissors then why Dark usually gets destroyed by a good Terran when he tries these roach builds? Is he just unlucky? Or the Terrans are doing better builds against Dark on purpose? Its all super ridiculous man :D
Dark goes for much quicker roach allins than Rogue I think. And he sucks at choosing when to do them. Rogue is, as I said a million times, the best at finding an abusive strat and pushing it to the limit.
Dark isn't, he's just good tactically and mechanically. Half the time he plays suboptimally and makes the game harder for himself.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was playing against top tier players and more than just 2 other players Most of his success comes form the KeSPA era, where it really wasn't just him and 2 other good players.
That's why I say Clem and Reynor aren't there yet. Flash is the most skilled video game I have EVER seen. I believe that Reynor and Clem will someday be that good. Not yet. But eventually.
So skilled he won so many Code S titles, or Blizzcon titles or IEM titles
Why do you bring Flash back to SC2? Why do you do this to him? He's great BW player, leave him there.
Did i miswrite something? I said Flash was the best in Brood War. I want Maru to be considered the Flash of SC2. Clem and Reynor have a chance to claim that title if Maru doesn't win it first. I know who I want to claim the title first but if he can't beat Rogue, if he can't win G5L. Clem and Reynor might take that title from him first. Not yet, but some day they might.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was made GOAT of BW during an era when they could still pack stadiums for finals, and there were multiple hardcore KESPA teams. I don't know one way or another about what'll happen to the Korean SC2 scene, or what kind of respect Reynor and Clem will ultimately get in the GOAT conversation, but the comparison you're making doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
On May 06 2021 20:25 Fango wrote: Rogue will eternally suffer behind others in the GOAT discussion because who the hell wants to watch this shit. Most unlikeable player that isn't a convicted matchfixer.
I like to watch him and I like him.
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years.
Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else.
Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again
Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains).
Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win.
Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments.
Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups...
You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds.
There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over.
I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever.
why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game?
There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway.
Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors.
So when two hatch before pool loses to proxy rax you feel the win is undeserved?
There are of course times when you are just unlucky but the times when a safe none greedy build goes into a BO loss is very very rare. There are few times when a player actually loses 100% to build order and there is nothing the player can do to stop it and those times its almost always due to a greedy opening. And what is a greedy opening if not a kind of greed cheese, you play an BO you know is an auto loss to certain aggresive builds because you want to end up with BO advantage against a players being safe. There is always the choice to not pay rock-paper-scissors and just play safe, don't go CC first, get a tank for safety, scout early, get a raven if you sniff possible DT and so on. If you want an advantage through rock-paper-scissors and you lose then its 100% something that the player could have prevented through a safe opening.
On May 06 2021 20:25 Fango wrote: Rogue will eternally suffer behind others in the GOAT discussion because who the hell wants to watch this shit. Most unlikeable player that isn't a convicted matchfixer.
I like to watch him and I like him.
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years.
Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else.
Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again
Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains).
Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win.
Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments.
Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups...
You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds.
There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over.
I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever.
why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game?
There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway.
Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors.
Any sufficiently strong strategic win looks like RPS victory. That's what makes it strong.
You know what, fine.
I'll just say I hate the fact someone can win purely based on these kinds of strategies. Yes it's a strategy game, but you shouldn't be able to win that many bo7 finals via overwhelming strategic choices to the point each game looks like RPS.
Rogue won another final where I don't think the opponent did much of anything wrong, at least not until the final game. That hurts. And I don't think Rogue can do it if he didn't play zerg. Although TY did something similar in 2020.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was playing against top tier players and more than just 2 other players Most of his success comes form the KeSPA era, where it really wasn't just him and 2 other good players.
That's why I say Clem and Reynor aren't there yet. Flash is the most skilled video game I have EVER seen. I believe that Reynor and Clem will someday be that good. Not yet. But eventually.
So skilled he won so many Code S titles, or Blizzcon titles or IEM titles
Why do you bring Flash back to SC2? Why do you do this to him? He's great BW player, leave him there.
Did i miswrite something? I said Flash was the best in Brood War. I want Maru to be considered the Flash of SC2. Clem and Reynor have a chance to claim that title if Maru doesn't win it first. I know who I want to claim the title first but if he can't beat Rogue, if he can't win G5L. Clem and Reynor might take that title from him first. Not yet, but some day they might.
They don't have the time. Flash and JD were good when BW was at its peak, when there were hardcore teams.
They missed the peak of SC2 already. And if the Blizzard's money stop flowing, I believe the scene will gets worse which means all their achievements after that will be negated.
Also why the fuck are we talking about this in Reynor v Maru finals?
Talk this in foreigner LR. I usually don't go there, you can keep the dream there.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was made GOAT of BW during an era when they could still pack stadiums for finals, and there were multiple hardcore KESPA teams. I don't know one way or another about what'll happen to the Korean SC2 scene, or what kind of respect Reynor and Clem will ultimately get in the GOAT conversation, but the comparison you're making doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Consider what I said. I don't think Clem and Reynor are at Flash's level. Of course they aren't. But someday. SOMEDAY they might be. I'm banking on their potential. They are better now than Maru was at their age. Maru who is the closest to a Flash of SC2 we have RIGHT NOW. Some day in the future. Clem and Reynor might pull it off. I'm not sure if they will but maybe?
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was playing against top tier players and more than just 2 other players Most of his success comes form the KeSPA era, where it really wasn't just him and 2 other good players.
That's why I say Clem and Reynor aren't there yet. Flash is the most skilled video game I have EVER seen. I believe that Reynor and Clem will someday be that good. Not yet. But eventually.
So skilled he won so many Code S titles, or Blizzcon titles or IEM titles
Why do you bring Flash back to SC2? Why do you do this to him? He's great BW player, leave him there.
Did i miswrite something? I said Flash was the best in Brood War. I want Maru to be considered the Flash of SC2. Clem and Reynor have a chance to claim that title if Maru doesn't win it first. I know who I want to claim the title first but if he can't beat Rogue, if he can't win G5L. Clem and Reynor might take that title from him first. Not yet, but some day they might.
They don't have the time. Flash and JD were good when BW was at its peak, when there were hardcore teams.
They missed the peak of SC2 already. And if the Blizzard's money stop flowing, I believe the scene will gets worse which means all their achievements after that will be negated.
Also why the fuck are we talking about this in Reynor v Maru finals?
Talk this in foreigner LR. I usually don't go there, you can keep the dream there.
I see.
You are not being as optimistic as I am about the future of the game. That's where we think differently.
On May 06 2021 20:25 Fango wrote: Rogue will eternally suffer behind others in the GOAT discussion because who the hell wants to watch this shit. Most unlikeable player that isn't a convicted matchfixer.
I like to watch him and I like him.
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years.
Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else.
Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again
Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains).
Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win.
Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments.
Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups...
You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds.
There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over.
I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever.
why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game?
There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway.
Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors.
So when two hatch before pool loses to proxy rax you feel the win is undeserved?
The problem is that Rogue's allins often don't hit opponents playing specifically greedy. Terran and protoss players go for middle-of-the-road builds and then get walked over by Rogue's nydus/roach/baneling bust/whatever.
It hurts to see someone play greedy and die to a cheese, but it hurts a lot more to see someone not play greedy and get rolled anyway to something they just didn't scout.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was made GOAT of BW during an era when they could still pack stadiums for finals, and there were multiple hardcore KESPA teams. I don't know one way or another about what'll happen to the Korean SC2 scene, or what kind of respect Reynor and Clem will ultimately get in the GOAT conversation, but the comparison you're making doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Consider what I said. I don't think Clem and Reynor are at Flash's level. Of course they aren't. But someday. SOMEDAY they might be. I'm banking on their potential. They are better now than Maru was at their age. Maru who is the closest to a Flash of SC2 we have RIGHT NOW. Some day in the future. Clem and Reynor might pull it off. I'm not sure if they will but maybe?
the scene just isn't there anymore. GSL is a shadow of its former self and will probably not last that long anymore and then World Championships will be all they can win to add to their resumee. They just can't build that kind of legacy during this state of the scene
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Clem and Reynor will be the Flash and Jaedong of Starcraft 2.... eventually. They arent there yet. Some day they will be, but awarding them that now is just being unfair to the other great players who are playing the game.
How? IF Blizzard doesn't pay for another years of SC2 content the Korean scene IMO crashes like a house of cards.
And why does that matter? even if you're right (and I hope you're not) Flash is the GOAT of SC1 and Korea is the only one with a real pro scene for Brood War. If Flash can be the GOAT of Brood War why can't Clem and Reynor be the GOATS of SC2?
Flash was made GOAT of BW during an era when they could still pack stadiums for finals, and there were multiple hardcore KESPA teams. I don't know one way or another about what'll happen to the Korean SC2 scene, or what kind of respect Reynor and Clem will ultimately get in the GOAT conversation, but the comparison you're making doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Consider what I said. I don't think Clem and Reynor are at Flash's level. Of course they aren't. But someday. SOMEDAY they might be. I'm banking on their potential. They are better now than Maru was at their age. Maru who is the closest to a Flash of SC2 we have RIGHT NOW. Some day in the future. Clem and Reynor might pull it off. I'm not sure if they will but maybe?
the scene just isn't there anymore. GSL is a shadow of its former self and will probably not last that long anymore and then World Championships will be all they can win to add to their resumee. They just can't build that kind of legacy during this state of the scene
But if they want to, they can join any GSL(or other high profile tourney) and pull the random Flash card out and win a high profile tournament whileplaying random If they get high enough plenty of times ...
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
no body of work? he won 3 GSLs and 3 world championships? unless you mean he doesn't have a lot of high finishes other than his championships, then fair point guess. Also there's no discussion about Maru being the best terran, he's the highest advancing terran in almost every tournament he enters
Of course, I mean that has almost nothing other than his titles which weight a lot but for sure don't make him a GOAT.
Maru's performance today was bad by his standards, it's not representative of his TvZ prowess but yes, Clem is better at it right now.
On May 06 2021 20:29 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] Mau won't get the G5L trophy. Cursed Trophy. Deal with it.
Dude you better stop saying such cursed things.
Dude, you better start to see the pattern.
Mvp wins 4 titles. They create G5L trophy. Mvp never wins GSL again. Maru wins 4 titles in a row. They bring the G5L trophy. Maru never wins GSL again.
If we wanna see Maru winning the G5L there need to be 2 4-time victors in the finals, so the trophy HAS TO GO to somebody and I dare to say it will be Rogue or Dark, not Maru.
Curses are stupid and dont exist. Maru just needs to be more prepared and clutch (and ideally not meet Rogue again) and he will get it. And Mvp only has 3 GSL titles. GSL vs the world does not count. It would be an insult to CodeS to do so.
Mvp has 4 GSLs. It doesn't do anyone any good to change the rules now. Maru doesn't need that.
You can say whatever, but a GSL vs the world is not a real GSL, everybody knows it.
We can discuss this forever, but G5L trophy was created for Mvp and cursed Mvp. Now it curses Maru. Let's see what it does to a non Terran player who's nickname doesn't start with an 'M'
You're trying to make me mad aren't you? it's working. I don't like any of the words you are writing.
Just don't let yourself get trolled here, although I know it's tough right now
It's not trolling on my side. I am a big Maru fanboy, but I already accepted he will never win the Code S again. The curse is way too strong. I will get some hope if he faces somebody he can beat who has 4 titles as well. But until then he's not gonna win and I already made peace with that.
Silly us, thinking that Pharaoh's curse could be the worst; fortunately deacon is enlightening us letting us know the G5L trophy truly is cursed, divine providence is avoiding Maru to win it because who knows what would happen if he actually touches it.
On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
Haha, yeah, cry more please. Someone please ask him who is the best Terran in the world if its not Maru so he can say its Clem. Because he wins EU weeklies! And he beat Serral a few times, what a GOAT
tbf Clem has the potential to become the best terran given his potential but right now he hasn't shown up at the big stages yet so he can't have a claim at the title of best terran
Oh for sure, Clem is a beast. I just find it amusing how salty Xanion is every time Rogue gets another big win, because he knows Serral wont ever be considered the best Zerg thanks to that. No matter how many HomeStory cups and ESL EU he wins
Words that sound weird when written by someone who called Reynor a fluke for weeks when he narrowly defeated Maru while playing godlike. I generally don't like when players that shouldn't have reached the finals win one and I for sure don't like how insanely abusive and annoying Rogue's playstyle is in his finals.
On May 06 2021 20:26 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] I like to watch him and I like him.
Rogue finals consistently put me off this game. There's nothing fun about seeing a guy sweep every final with nydus worms and roach allins against people that don't manage to scout them. Especially when they play a race that seems to win just about every big tournament for the last 4 years.
Every Rogue game in the finals is just "Oh Rogue did this build, there's nothing his opponent can do now". It's disgusting that zerg has the ability to do that and Rogue abuses it more than anyone else.
Zerg doesn't have the ability to do that, Rogue does. I think it's kinda amazing how he manages to pull of this thing again and again
Zerg has the ability to do that. It's just Rogue seems to know when and where to do it. It's not like his mechanics or execution at baneling busts, roach allins, nydus worms etc is anything flashy or sets him apart (like ByuN was with reapers, or PartinG at soultrains).
Every high profile Rogue match feels like a rock-paper-scissors win. He picks the right allin and his opponent never scouts it and then there's nothing to they can do to win.
Rogue is 11:0 and 44:13 in BO7 matches against the best players in the world, on the biggest of tournaments.
Yeah, just race and luck here people, nothing to see. Plenty other Zergs can do that as well. Except they dont. Ups...
You must have missed the part where I said what sets Rogue apart is that he knows when and where to pull out these kinds of builds.
There's a reason he can lose in the ro32/ro16/ro8 and it surprise no one. But when he gets to the big matches he knows exactly what to play and seems to always have a strat he can abuse over and over.
I'm sure winning with max roach allins or nydus worms again and again has nothing to do with being a zerg. At least when Serral, soO, Stats, Maru and others win you can highlight their great mechanics, or defense, control over the game or whatever.
why do you think it's more amazing when a player wins with mechanics than when a player wins with strategic moves in a real-time-strategy game?
There's something about build order wins and abusing broken mechanics that don't often hit my "Wow, strategic brilliance" button. Any time you watch a game and know there's literally nothing an opponent can do to counter it anyway.
Maybe I just like my strategies to be more complex than rock paper scissors.
Any sufficiently strong strategic win looks like RPS victory. That's what makes it strong.
You know what, fine.
I'll just say I hate the fact someone can win purely based on these kinds of strategies. Yes it's a strategy game, but you shouldn't be able to win that many bo7 finals via overwhelming strategic choices to the point each game looks like RPS.
Rogue won another final where I don't think the opponent did much of anything wrong, at least not until the final game. That hurts. And I don't think Rogue can do it if he didn't play zerg. Although TY did something similar in 2020.
If Protoss had a player with the nerves and the abusiveness of Rogue the Big Book would be bigger by thousands of pages; the race Rogue plays matters only to a certain extent.
The GOAT discussion became heated in 2018 because a player loved to an insane extent like Maru is fulfilled his fanboy's wildest dreams and transitioned to a true world class champion, winning enough to make him eligible for the title.
EPT
