On May 06 2021 20:49 Xain0n wrote: Such absolute trash, I expected more from a TvZ final.
Some of you called Maru the best Terran in the world... he definitely isn't, at least not in this matchup; it looks like he isn't that good at winning Code S finals when there isn't Jin Air feeding him strategies, or maybe he's just extremely good against Protoss. Thus said, with his OSL and his Super Tournament, the G5L trophy should have already been given to him.
As for Rogue, Dream generously donated him this final and allowed him to keep his bo7 streak. I personally can't stand how Rogue keeps dominating finals he shouldn't have reached. He won Katowice 2020 and this Code S while not being the best player, he didn't even look dominating like he did at times while not being busy looking Z class for months... Rogue is the clutchest player to have ever played Sc2 and has the most prestigious collection of trophies but he's not the GOAT, there is no body of work behind that. He is the best korean Zerg but his finals are so terrible to watch, I think I'll feel relieved when the korean army call him.
On May 07 2021 00:53 Calliope wrote: Are there no vetos of the maps? Only managed to catch glimpses today. How could he choose to play on Jagannatha? It is free muta reign, didn't we use to call it zerganatha?
BO7. There are 7 maps. You do the math.
Rogue had to play on Blackburn and won, this is how BO7 finals have always worked in a pool of 7 maps.
On May 07 2021 00:53 Calliope wrote: Are there no vetos of the maps? Only managed to catch glimpses today. How could he choose to play on Jagannatha? It is free muta reign, didn't we use to call it zerganatha?
Zerganatha was Rogues pick obviously. There are no vetoes in bo7. And Marus choices made sense - Oxide first, Nautilus 2nd and 3rd he had to pick between Romanticide and Lightshade so he chose the lesser evil.
I think people might be forgetting that GSL does not have Beckett, so the map pool is actually not as Terran favored as the only obvious T map is Oxide + Blackburn kind off (oddly Rogues 2nd map pick). And Zergs have Jaganatha and Lighshade with Romanticide being also a tiny bit better for Zerg I would say.
On May 07 2021 01:08 sneakyfox wrote: At this point the only way Rogue is not the GOAT is if LotV tournaments simply don't count for more than about half of what HotS tournaments do.
It's more like the only way for Rogue to be the GOAT is if placements and deep runs don't count(only victories) and that no tournament outside of Katowice/BlizzCon and Code S is worth anything.
Rogue is an all-time great and on the very short list of GOAT, but man, it certainly seems like many of his opponents in finals play well beneath their usual level. I'm sure this isn't the case in reality, but it FEELS that way. Granted, it's probably his tactical brilliance and godlike preparation causing that, but today's finals were awful to watch, as is usually the case with Rogue's finals.
There's no way anyone should question Rogue's resume at this point, but I think the saltiness comes from almost never getting well-played, back and forth macro games in his finals. It's hard to feel like an opponent isn't playing poorly when they're getting 4-0ed. But again, he's clearly causing that, so it's just this weird dichotomy that can be hard to process.
On May 07 2021 01:08 sneakyfox wrote: At this point the only way Rogue is not the GOAT is if LotV tournaments simply don't count for more than about half of what HotS tournaments do.
It's more like the only way for Rogue to be the GOAT is if placements and deep runs don't count(only victories) and that no tournament outside of Katowice/BlizzCon and Code S is worth anything.
Of course mostly victories count. If we had to weight it, victory would be a 10, runner up maybe 3 and any other placement is basically irrelevant (nice statistic to mention, but compared to a victory its nothing).
And compared to Katowice/BlizzCon and Code S other tournaments were not relevant for most of SC2 until the rise or Reynor and now Clem and general improvement of foreigners. And even now these 3 are head, shoulders and torso above anything else. That is how it is and how it should be, what top competition is all about in any sport.
On May 07 2021 01:08 sneakyfox wrote: At this point the only way Rogue is not the GOAT is if LotV tournaments simply don't count for more than about half of what HotS tournaments do.
Maru is still a six time Starleague winner. If we give Starleagues the same value as World Championships Rogue has won the same amount but Maru's other results are superior. Ofc you can factor in that Maru is not "complete" because he has never won a world championship but he was a Proleague god whereas Rogue only really performed great in the final Proleague season.
Not regarding the strength of the era they were competing in I could see arguments for both but as it stands Maru should still be comfortably on top
On May 07 2021 01:08 sneakyfox wrote: At this point the only way Rogue is not the GOAT is if LotV tournaments simply don't count for more than about half of what HotS tournaments do.
Maru is still a six time Starleague winner. If we give Starleagues the same value as World Championships Rogue has won the same amount but Maru's other results are superior. Ofc you can factor in that Maru is not "complete" because he has never won a world championship but he was a Proleague god whereas Rogue only really performed great in the final Proleague season.
Not regarding the strength of the era they were competing in I could see arguments for both but as it stands Maru should still be comfortably on top
Rogue won both the IEM and Blizzcon. Which is huge considering the hype around that. Not sure if any Code S/Starleague title can be weighted by the openess of the IEM. OTOH when I see some foreign fanboys I wonder if they know about any Korean tournaments at all, so maybe out of spite I would say they do
On May 07 2021 01:35 Rubicant1 wrote: Rogue is an all-time great and on the very short list of GOAT, but man, it certainly seems like many of his opponents in finals play well beneath their usual level. I'm sure this isn't the case in reality, but it FEELS that way. Granted, it's probably his tactical brilliance and godlike preparation causing that, but today's finals were awful to watch, as is usually the case with Rogue's finals.
There's no way anyone should question Rogue's resume at this point, but I think the saltiness comes from almost never getting well-played, back and forth macro games in his finals. It's hard to feel like an opponent isn't playing poorly when they're getting 4-0ed. But again, he's clearly causing that, so it's just this weird dichotomy that can be hard to process.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I think Rogue’s real strength is that he often puts forth a high risk playstyle, but knows how to ease in or out of it relatively well. In the games vs the Siege tanks here, all he has to do is snipe a few and back out / deny a third or fourth. Calling the attacks “all ins” is misjudging them. Because he can continually expand on inferior units, while the Terran cannot.
On May 07 2021 00:53 Calliope wrote: Are there no vetos of the maps? Only managed to catch glimpses today. How could he choose to play on Jagannatha? It is free muta reign, didn't we use to call it zerganatha?
Zerganatha was Rogues pick obviously. There are no vetoes in bo7. And Marus choices made sense - Oxide first, Nautilus 2nd and 3rd he had to pick between Romanticide and Lightshade so he chose the lesser evil.
I think people might be forgetting that GSL does not have Beckett, so the map pool is actually not as Terran favored as the only obvious T map is Oxide + Blackburn kind off (oddly Rogues 2nd map pick). And Zergs have Jaganatha and Lighshade with Romanticide being also a tiny bit better for Zerg I would say.
Pretty crazy how much people have bought into this terran narrative that Jagannatha is a terrible map for TvZ. Is it good for zerg? Sure, somewhat. Is it the best zerg map in the pool? Pretty close to it. Is it terrible map like Oxide is for zerg in ZvT? Not at all. Terran has a decent winrate on it.
haven't seen this much passion on TL.net in a long time Bless bad GSL finals Still can´t believe they had the finals on a thursday, Maybe they knew what was comming GG Rogue, Maru will win soon enough
On May 07 2021 02:48 SmoKim wrote: haven't seen this much passion on TL.net in a long time Bless bad GSL finals Still can´t believe they had the finals on a thursday, Maybe they knew what was comming GG Rogue, Maru will win soon enough
We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011
2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) - this one was especially bad, as Inca tried like 4 different failed DT rushes. To this day, his name is still synonymous with DTs 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-0 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) - just a ZvZ clinic by Nestea over his Zerg teammate 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history
On May 07 2021 02:48 SmoKim wrote: haven't seen this much passion on TL.net in a long time Bless bad GSL finals Still can´t believe they had the finals on a thursday, Maybe they knew what was comming GG Rogue, Maru will win soon enough
We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011
2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-2 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history
I don't remember most of these series very well, but I remember Jjakji vs Leenock being extremely exciting and intense, each most games being a very different kind of game and many of them putting them through crazy situations and both players trying every little thing to clutch it. It was so exciting that I keep forgetting it didn't actually get to G7.
It's definitely in my top GSL finals ever, probably Top 5.
On May 07 2021 02:48 SmoKim wrote: haven't seen this much passion on TL.net in a long time Bless bad GSL finals Still can´t believe they had the finals on a thursday, Maybe they knew what was comming GG Rogue, Maru will win soon enough
We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011
2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-2 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history
Wow I did not remember there were that many GSLs back in the day :o.
On May 07 2021 02:48 SmoKim wrote: haven't seen this much passion on TL.net in a long time Bless bad GSL finals Still can´t believe they had the finals on a thursday, Maybe they knew what was comming GG Rogue, Maru will win soon enough
We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011
2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-2 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history
I am still sad that July didn´t win vs MC
Just checked Rogue liquidpedia. Holy **** he really has done it all hasn´t he?
- 1st IEM Shanghai - 2x 1st GSL Super - 1st IEM World Championship - 1st WCS Global Finals - 1st IEM Katowice - 3x 1st GSL
Thats 9 Premier wins. Is Rogue the Jaedong of SC2? Guess that depend if he keeps Roach allin winning the next year onwards.
Imagine if Rogue meets Maru the next 2 season finals, winning the next once again, and then the battle for G5L in Season 3? Now that is hype
On May 07 2021 02:48 SmoKim wrote: haven't seen this much passion on TL.net in a long time Bless bad GSL finals Still can´t believe they had the finals on a thursday, Maybe they knew what was comming GG Rogue, Maru will win soon enough
We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011
2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-2 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history
I am still sad that July didn´t win vs MC
Just checked Rogue liquidpedia. Holy **** he really has done it all hasn´t he?
- 1st IEM Shanghai - 2x 1st GSL Super - 1st IEM World Championship - 1st WCS Global Finals - 1st IEM Katowice - 3x 1st GSL
Thats 9 Premier wins. Is Rogue the Jaedong of SC2? Guess that depend if he keeps Roach allin winning the next year onwards.
Imagine if Rogue meets Maru the next 2 season finals, winning the next once again, and then the battle for G5L in Season 3? Now that is hype
He won only 1 Super, but yeah his record is in contention for 2nd-3rd best, and an argument for #1 is reasonable if you put a lot of weight into Katowice/World Championships. (To me they're big and worth considerably more than a Code S, but not quite more than Maru's legacy yet as Maru won 2 Starleagues and WESG, and has placed 2nd-4th at a looot of Premier tournies compared to Rogue)
Inno won 3 GSLs, 1 Vs the World, 1 WESG, 1 Starleague, and he won WCS Season 1 which is basically a WCS/Blizzcon World Championship. Based on Championships, Rogue definitely has a better record. But if you take into account all the 2nd-4th place finishes Inno has, I think there's an argument Inno is still #2 too.
I think if Rogue wins another GSL, World Championship, or Katowice though, he has a strong argument for #1, since most people value championships wayyy more than 2nd places. (If I were to give it points, 1st place is 10 points, 2nd place is 4-5 points, 3rd-4th place is 2 points, but I think most would give less than I do).
On May 07 2021 02:48 SmoKim wrote: haven't seen this much passion on TL.net in a long time Bless bad GSL finals Still can´t believe they had the finals on a thursday, Maybe they knew what was comming GG Rogue, Maru will win soon enough
We had a long stretch of pretty bad / one-sided GSL finals in 2011
2010 Open Season 3 (MC 4-1 Rain) 2011 Jan (Mvp 4-1 MKP) 2011 Mar (MC 4-1 July) 2011 GSL vs. World (Mvp 4-2 MKP) 2011 May (Nestea 4-0 Inca) 2011 Super Tournament (Polt 4-2 MMA) 2011 Jul (Nestea 4-0 Losira) 2011 Aug (Mvp 4-1 TOP) 2011 Oct (MMA 4-1 Mvp) -> this was considered a "fun" GSL finals 2011 Nov (Jjakji 4-2 Leenock) -> very nice back-and-forth series 2011 Blizzard Cup (MMA 4-3 DRG) -> now this was an epic finals, still probably one of the best Bo7 series in SC2 history
I am still sad that July didn´t win vs MC
Just checked Rogue liquidpedia. Holy **** he really has done it all hasn´t he?
- 1st IEM Shanghai - 2x 1st GSL Super - 1st IEM World Championship - 1st WCS Global Finals - 1st IEM Katowice - 3x 1st GSL
Thats 9 Premier wins. Is Rogue the Jaedong of SC2? Guess that depend if he keeps Roach allin winning the next year onwards.
Imagine if Rogue meets Maru the next 2 season finals, winning the next once again, and then the battle for G5L in Season 3? Now that is hype
Two Super Tournaments? There must be something wrong. Jaedong in Brood War was both consistent and dominant, the undisputed best Zerg of his era unlike Rogue.
You'd better hope that Rogue never reaches another final, at least not another bo7 offline final, considering how unpleasant they are to watch; he's also already 27.
EPT
