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On July 23 2013 20:52 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:44 Douillos wrote:On July 23 2013 20:42 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 23 2013 20:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 robson1 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 bo1b wrote:
I actually think it's pretty cool innovation can use the same build every tvz. It's nice that there is a standard macro build which isn't too greedy or aggressive, and which makes you win or lose based on mechanics. 3 cc 26 supply into double upgrades. Not to greedy. No it's not. Deal with it. haha oh lord  Yeah, indeed... I don't know if they are trolling us or they actually believe that. Or we understand something that you don't? If 3 CC into double Ebay is un-punishable, admit that something is wrong with the game. But that isn't true, and we will see in the fnext few games  Why? Why do people think everything should be "punishable"? There would be a problem if, for instance, Terran could punish a fast third while Zerg couldn't. As it stands now, neither side can really punish a fast third, so where's the problem? On July 23 2013 20:44 Emzeeshady wrote:
3 cc double ups just straight up loses to a roach bane bust... No. You can defend. It's extremely forgiving so you fall behind or instantly lose at the first misstep but you can definitely defend it. You think Terrans are stupid and keep playing as a standard something which would lose 100% of the time to that attack? Standard Terran macro builds are forced to take into account the threat of Roach/Baneling busts since they exist; in WoL you played Hellions/Banshees to handle that, in HotS Mines coupled with excellent control allow you to skip the Starport and get earlier third and upgrades. yea but terran can punish a zerg for going a faster 4th though.... If zerg army is cost efficient against the bio mine, then fast 3rd vs fast 3rd argument might be more acceptable
How? IdrA went 4-bases mutas against Polt on their Daybreak game from WCS America last season, Polt couldn't do anything particular to punish that... Cost-efficiency depends on micro from both sides; 2/2 lings/banes/mutas can actually handle 3/3 4M for a long time (see Bogus vs Solar on Whirlwind for instance, on the IEM KR Qualifier).
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On July 23 2013 20:54 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:44 Douillos wrote:On July 23 2013 20:42 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 23 2013 20:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 robson1 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 bo1b wrote:
I actually think it's pretty cool innovation can use the same build every tvz. It's nice that there is a standard macro build which isn't too greedy or aggressive, and which makes you win or lose based on mechanics. 3 cc 26 supply into double upgrades. Not to greedy. No it's not. Deal with it. haha oh lord Yeah, indeed... I don't know if they are trolling us or they actually believe that. Or we understand something that you don't? If 3 CC into double Ebay is un-punishable, admit that something is wrong with the game. But that isn't true, and we will see in the fnext few games Why? Why do people think everything should be "punishable"? There would be a problem if, for instance, Terran could punish a fast third while Zerg couldn't. As it stands now, neither side can really punish a fast third, so where's the problem? On July 23 2013 20:44 Emzeeshady wrote:
3 cc double ups just straight up loses to a roach bane bust... You think Terrans are stupid? Hmmmm  + Show Spoiler +I joke, don't write lots of long mean paragraphs to prove me wrong :p
deal!
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On July 23 2013 20:55 Yonnua wrote:Next time artosis tries to qualify he should predict his opponents to win every game. Maybe he'll manage to get Code A this time.
He will win a WCS season that way.
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On July 23 2013 20:54 paradoxOO9 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:52 DidYuhim wrote:On July 23 2013 20:51 paradoxOO9 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On July 23 2013 20:46 Rhaegal wrote:On July 23 2013 20:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On July 23 2013 20:43 NarutO wrote:On July 23 2013 20:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Terran seems pretty bad at the highest level
/s Jesus give us a break. INnoVation _IS_ the best player in the world right now, especially in this match up. SoulKey went for a timing and it didn't work AT ALL. Jesus, stop balance whining when Terran is statistically inferior right now. If it wasn't for Flash and INnoVation Terran would get utterly dominated. It's got nothing to do with balance whine. It's more a reverse argument to people like you and Dwf constantly arguing about how weak terran is. There's always one or two terrans who "just happen to be the best player in the world" and dominate everything. I'll start taking these statistics seriously when protoss beats terran in a BoX at the highest level. Ok, so OSL in 2 days? Maybe, who knows. Fact is, Innovation 4-0d sOs in the last "highest level BoX series" at the WCS Finals. Wasn't sOs supposed to be the best protoss or something? I did hear people calling him that. The whine about terran being carried by a few players is silly. Protoss gets carried by a bunch of people who get dominated by the best terrans. So what exactly is worse? As much as I love Bomber, First is going to dismantle him I feel. Rain is kinda favoured against Supernova as well Bomber took a huge dump on First in GSTL, though. Yeah but a BOX is a whole different game, and we haven't seen the bomber effect kick in yet, it is due
Yeah, I'm really hyped for the games, both players have a lot of stuff to prove.
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On July 23 2013 20:53 CrueltY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On July 23 2013 20:43 NarutO wrote:On July 23 2013 20:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Terran seems pretty bad at the highest level
/s Jesus give us a break. INnoVation _IS_ the best player in the world right now, especially in this match up. SoulKey went for a timing and it didn't work AT ALL. Jesus, stop balance whining when Terran is statistically inferior right now. If it wasn't for Flash and INnoVation Terran would get utterly dominated. It's got nothing to do with balance whine. It's more a reverse argument to people like you and Dwf constantly arguing about how weak terran is. There's always one or two terrans who "just happen to be the best player in the world" and dominate everything. I'll start taking these statistics seriously when protoss beats terran in a BoX at the highest level. Agreed. If players aren't able to play up to the standard of innovation, then it isn't the race that si weak, but the other players. Decent series so far. Some interesting stuff from soulkey, but innovation has been playing really sharply.
Balance doesn't mean that the race has potential to win, no one does doubt Terran has the potential and I personally believe its the strongest race played correctly, but it should also be in relation to what has to be done. Its just unbelievably hard to make Terran work and if it takes perfect multitasking, macro and micro for a Terran to be convincing... then I have to say sorry. Why nerf hellbats?
They were fine TvZ and TvP, could be perfectly defended and TvT adjusted in highest level (innovation, flash, bomber, bbyong.....) and they defended them as well. If you only take a look at the very best period you are going to have a bad time with balance.
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On July 23 2013 20:53 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:44 Douillos wrote:On July 23 2013 20:42 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 23 2013 20:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 robson1 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 bo1b wrote:
I actually think it's pretty cool innovation can use the same build every tvz. It's nice that there is a standard macro build which isn't too greedy or aggressive, and which makes you win or lose based on mechanics. 3 cc 26 supply into double upgrades. Not to greedy. No it's not. Deal with it. haha oh lord Yeah, indeed... I don't know if they are trolling us or they actually believe that. Or we understand something that you don't? If 3 CC into double Ebay is un-punishable, admit that something is wrong with the game. But that isn't true, and we will see in the fnext few games Why? Why do people think everything should be "punishable"? There would be a problem if, for instance, Terran could punish a fast third while Zerg couldn't. As it stands now, neither side can really punish a fast third, so where's the problem? On July 23 2013 20:44 Emzeeshady wrote:
3 cc double ups just straight up loses to a roach bane bust... No. You can defend. It's extremely forgiving so you fall behind or instantly lose at the first misstep but you can definitely defend it. You think Terrans are stupid and keep playing as a standard something which would lose 100% of the time to that attack? Standard Terran macro builds are forced to take into account the threat of Roach/Baneling busts since they exist; in WoL you played Hellions/Banshees to handle that, in HotS Mines coupled with excellent control allow you to skip the Starport and get earlier third and upgrades. Because it leads to turtle fests, 15 minutes no rush games. I know you're good at the game, but I still disagree with you're standpoint on this.
Terrans quick 3cc build is entirely dependent on moving out on the map at like 10-12 minutes, right around the time your taking a 3rd.
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On July 23 2013 20:55 TheFlexN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:55 Yonnua wrote:Next time artosis tries to qualify he should predict his opponents to win every game. Maybe he'll manage to get Code A this time. He will win a WCS season that way.
Artosis; the next zerg bonjwa!
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On July 23 2013 20:53 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:44 Douillos wrote:On July 23 2013 20:42 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 23 2013 20:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 robson1 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 bo1b wrote:
I actually think it's pretty cool innovation can use the same build every tvz. It's nice that there is a standard macro build which isn't too greedy or aggressive, and which makes you win or lose based on mechanics. 3 cc 26 supply into double upgrades. Not to greedy. No it's not. Deal with it. haha oh lord Yeah, indeed... I don't know if they are trolling us or they actually believe that. Or we understand something that you don't? If 3 CC into double Ebay is un-punishable, admit that something is wrong with the game. But that isn't true, and we will see in the fnext few games Why? Why do people think everything should be "punishable"? There would be a problem if, for instance, Terran could punish a fast third while Zerg couldn't. As it stands now, neither side can really punish a fast third, so where's the problem? On July 23 2013 20:44 Emzeeshady wrote:
3 cc double ups just straight up loses to a roach bane bust... No. You can defend. It's extremely forgiving so you fall behind or instantly lose at the first misstep but you can definitely defend it. You think Terrans are stupid and keep playing as a standard something which would lose 100% of the time to that attack? Standard Terran macro builds are forced to take into account the threat of Roach/Baneling busts since they exist; in WoL you played Hellions/Banshees to handle that, in HotS Mines coupled with excellent control allow you to skip the Starport and get earlier third and upgrades. Because it leads to turtle fests, 15 minutes no rush games. I know you're good at the game, but I still disagree with you're standpoint on this.
Wut? Were the previous games NR15 turtlefests in your eyes?
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Why don't the balance whiners save it for the end of this series? Soulkey could still come back imo
I understand why zergs are upset, but seriously chill
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Artosis: "Please Khaldor don't destroy my dreams!!"
Khaldor: "Sorry Artosis, 3-0 for InnoVation"
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Soulkey spawns in the bottom left
Innovation spawns in the top right
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wow never heard a chant this loud since years
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On July 23 2013 20:54 TheFlexN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:52 opterown wrote:On July 23 2013 20:51 Rhaegal wrote:On July 23 2013 20:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On July 23 2013 20:46 Rhaegal wrote:On July 23 2013 20:45 DarkLordOlli wrote:On July 23 2013 20:43 NarutO wrote:On July 23 2013 20:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Terran seems pretty bad at the highest level
/s Jesus give us a break. INnoVation _IS_ the best player in the world right now, especially in this match up. SoulKey went for a timing and it didn't work AT ALL. Jesus, stop balance whining when Terran is statistically inferior right now. If it wasn't for Flash and INnoVation Terran would get utterly dominated. It's got nothing to do with balance whine. It's more a reverse argument to people like you and Dwf constantly arguing about how weak terran is. There's always one or two terrans who "just happen to be the best player in the world" and dominate everything. I'll start taking these statistics seriously when protoss beats terran in a BoX at the highest level. Ok, so OSL in 2 days? Maybe, who knows. Fact is, Innovation 4-0d sOs in the last "highest level BoX series" at the WCS Finals. Wasn't sOs supposed to be the best protoss or something? I did hear people calling him that. The whine about terran being carried by a few players is silly. Protoss gets carried by a bunch of people who rule the "middle ground" of leagues like PL and individual leagues but get dominated by the best terrans. So what exactly is worse? Innovation was the best player in the world even in wings. And are you forgetting about Rain? he dominates T. eh i don't know about WoL... I dont think innovation was that good in WoL, there is a history recap on the wcs YT channel. MVP was the best terran in WoL.
Overall, Mvp was the best player in WoL no question, but at the very end Innovation was definitely the best Terran we had. He was pretty much the only one who could make TvZ look even competitive for Terran.
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On July 23 2013 20:56 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:53 robson1 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:44 Douillos wrote:On July 23 2013 20:42 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 23 2013 20:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 robson1 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 bo1b wrote:
I actually think it's pretty cool innovation can use the same build every tvz. It's nice that there is a standard macro build which isn't too greedy or aggressive, and which makes you win or lose based on mechanics. 3 cc 26 supply into double upgrades. Not to greedy. No it's not. Deal with it. haha oh lord Yeah, indeed... I don't know if they are trolling us or they actually believe that. Or we understand something that you don't? If 3 CC into double Ebay is un-punishable, admit that something is wrong with the game. But that isn't true, and we will see in the fnext few games Why? Why do people think everything should be "punishable"? There would be a problem if, for instance, Terran could punish a fast third while Zerg couldn't. As it stands now, neither side can really punish a fast third, so where's the problem? On July 23 2013 20:44 Emzeeshady wrote:
3 cc double ups just straight up loses to a roach bane bust... No. You can defend. It's extremely forgiving so you fall behind or instantly lose at the first misstep but you can definitely defend it. You think Terrans are stupid and keep playing as a standard something which would lose 100% of the time to that attack? Standard Terran macro builds are forced to take into account the threat of Roach/Baneling busts since they exist; in WoL you played Hellions/Banshees to handle that, in HotS Mines coupled with excellent control allow you to skip the Starport and get earlier third and upgrades. Because it leads to turtle fests, 15 minutes no rush games. I know you're good at the game, but I still disagree with you're standpoint on this. Wut? Were the previous games NR15 turtlefests in your eyes?
No but those guys are soulkey and innovation who are the best players in the world. Most players are not even able to be this active on the map.
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On July 23 2013 20:56 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:55 TheFlexN wrote:On July 23 2013 20:55 Yonnua wrote:Next time artosis tries to qualify he should predict his opponents to win every game. Maybe he'll manage to get Code A this time. He will win a WCS season that way. Artosis; the next zerg bonjwa!
Imagine when artosis is laddering when every game starts he says "he will obviously beat me!" and artosis gets to GM few days later
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On July 23 2013 20:16 Nymzee wrote:
"Soulkey outplaying Innovation all game"
*random widow mine hit*
"Momentum swings in favour of Innovation"
good game... ?
why so much whine from zerg in all mu since 3 years when they still win most ?  so ... i dont even have words
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On July 23 2013 20:57 Rhaegal wrote:http://nios.kr/sc2/global/1v1/hots/grandmaster/Terran obviously isn't as strong as so many people claim it to be. If you remember at the end of wings, Z was the most represented race in GM. Now it's P.
Ladder =!!! balance.
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On July 23 2013 20:57 Yello wrote:Soulkey spawns in the bottom left Innovation spawns in the top right
0:00-4:00min
CC first on the high ground for Innovation
Hatch first into Gas, then Pool for Soulkey
Rax and Reactor for Innovation
no Drone-scout by Soulkey this game, SCV-scout by Innovation
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On July 23 2013 20:58 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 20:56 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:53 robson1 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:50 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:44 Douillos wrote:On July 23 2013 20:42 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 23 2013 20:40 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 23 2013 20:37 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 20:36 robson1 wrote:
[quote]
3 cc 26 supply into double upgrades. Not to greedy. No it's not. Deal with it. haha oh lord Yeah, indeed... I don't know if they are trolling us or they actually believe that. Or we understand something that you don't? If 3 CC into double Ebay is un-punishable, admit that something is wrong with the game. But that isn't true, and we will see in the fnext few games Why? Why do people think everything should be "punishable"? There would be a problem if, for instance, Terran could punish a fast third while Zerg couldn't. As it stands now, neither side can really punish a fast third, so where's the problem? On July 23 2013 20:44 Emzeeshady wrote:
3 cc double ups just straight up loses to a roach bane bust... No. You can defend. It's extremely forgiving so you fall behind or instantly lose at the first misstep but you can definitely defend it. You think Terrans are stupid and keep playing as a standard something which would lose 100% of the time to that attack? Standard Terran macro builds are forced to take into account the threat of Roach/Baneling busts since they exist; in WoL you played Hellions/Banshees to handle that, in HotS Mines coupled with excellent control allow you to skip the Starport and get earlier third and upgrades. Because it leads to turtle fests, 15 minutes no rush games. I know you're good at the game, but I still disagree with you're standpoint on this. Wut? Were the previous games NR15 turtlefests in your eyes? No but those guys are soulkey and innovation who are the best players in the world. Most players are not even able to be this active on the map.
There are an insane amount of tvz games this active using the 3cc build, not all of them are soulkey or innovation games.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/icons/6.png){kind=icon}
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