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On February 08 2012 19:33 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it Im not a P player, but you should really wait and see how it develops. If this is how stuff still looks in 1-2months, with Ps stomping Ts and Zs all over the place, then yea I think we can agree it is too strong. But for now, wait and see, and let T/Z get a chance to deal with it. Tbh, I only see a trend in Ps starting have an easier time against Ts lately. I really havent seen this happen at all vs Zs. 2base timings are risky/bad enough against Zs, and show me one game where a P takes a fast 3rd against a Z while also doing game ending damage on the attack.
That's because T has the most production lag. Taking a hyperspeed 3rd against a Terran who isn't automatically prepared to punish it (aka a build that waits for more than 1 rax before CC) is essentially safe as soon as warpgate pops. Between frontloaded production and how large all the shiny macro maps are, having 8 gates essentially ensures that you can catch up before the attack hits (FF's help delay too). And then T is stuck against mass gateway with a dead army or a macro disadvantage or both.
V Z, the inject/larva mechanic as well as the inherent speed of most zerg units means that fast P thirds are much easier to punish theoretically. Also helps that the Muta meta has made a lot of P players less confident in taking fast, tech-less expansions because blink and storm are key to survival
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MC can kinda just kill him now
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On February 08 2012 19:39 MorroW wrote:
no pro players want to give feedback or post in these forums because not its not always what you want to hear. and then you all come bashing
daybreak and metropolis are too long distances to punish something like this
you cant give the 15cc argument because 1rax expo gives a weaker followup than 15cc. thats why people go 15cc rofl, because the econ kicks in more quickly. then you get you extra raxes and geysers more quickly. you dont understand basic rts or tvp build.
toss scouts 15cc, grabs 2 nexuses, then goes onwards to not barely be able to defend, nope, he goes on to almost go kill protoss that was constantly building units on 2bases
you guys should realize me being in this game 12 hours a day for over a year knowing and talking to almost all pros plus practicing these gsl maps regularly, dont you think i should know the timings and find the flaws better than you?
its silly some tosses just come at me here just because they are defending their race
if you want feedback and pros opinions, the good and bad comes in a pack. im not gonna sit here and obliviously say "great timing on that 2base protoss" every time we watch gsl. please realize they can play macro oriented, they dont have to play like this. but they almost play like this exclusively because its more easy and they are more successful with it.
Dumbass logic. By that logic people like idra would actually have a leg to stand on when they say zerg doesnt beat protoss.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 08 2012 19:39 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:38 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 19:36 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 19:35 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 08 2012 19:33 Medrea wrote:
Its like Im going crazy. Did everyone forget that cloaked banshees are stealthed and 3 nexus and 8 gates have no observer??
Terran should be untouchable to that attack So blind banshees is the answer? Its not blind? You really think protoss can hide all that shit from terran?? Upon scouting the third it will be around three minutes until a banshee is complete with cloak finished. It's about that time that Parting was at Jjakji's base with half a bajillion forcefields. You HAVE to do the banshee blindly BEFORE the third starts to actually be able to counter it. How about just not going CC first?
The tech on 1 Rax gasless FE hardly comes faster. Then you get to the stage that if you went rax + gas before expo the probe sees that and then you just DON'T make the fast third.
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On February 08 2012 19:39 MorroW wrote:
no pro players want to give feedback or post in these forums because not its not always what you want to hear. and then you all come bashing
daybreak and metropolis are too long distances to punish something like this
you cant give the 15cc argument because 1rax expo gives a weaker followup than 15cc. thats why people go 15cc rofl, because the econ kicks in more quickly. then you get you extra raxes and geysers more quickly. you dont understand basic rts or tvp build.
toss scouts 15cc, grabs 2 nexuses, then goes onwards to not barely be able to defend, nope, he goes on to almost go kill protoss that was constantly building units on 2bases
you guys should realize me being in this game 12 hours a day for over a year knowing and talking to almost all pros plus practicing these gsl maps regularly, dont you think i should know the timings and find the flaws better than you?
its silly some tosses just come at me here just because they are defending their race
if you want feedback and pros opinions, the good and bad comes in a pack. im not gonna sit here and obliviously say "great timing on that 2base protoss" every time we watch gsl. please realize they can play macro oriented, they dont have to play like this. but they almost play like this exclusively because its more easy and they are more successful with it.
It isn't your job to bitch about imbalance, It is your job to show amazing games and work out ways to beat it.
Instead of sitting on this forum and explaining why it's impossible, how about you practice your ass off and become an innovator.
I lose respect for every single pro i see do this...
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On February 08 2012 19:40 ThaSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:39 Logros wrote:On February 08 2012 19:38 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 19:36 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 19:35 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 08 2012 19:33 Medrea wrote:
Its like Im going crazy. Did everyone forget that cloaked banshees are stealthed and 3 nexus and 8 gates have no observer??
Terran should be untouchable to that attack So blind banshees is the answer? Its not blind? You really think protoss can hide all that shit from terran?? Upon scouting the third it will be around three minutes until a banshee is complete with cloak finished. It's about that time that Parting was at Jjakji's base with half a bajillion forcefields. You HAVE to do the banshee blindly BEFORE the third starts to actually be able to counter it. How about just not going CC first? so terrans cant cc first and protosses can nexus first freely? what are you even trying to say
There's many ways to punish nexus first, bunker rushing, reactor hellions, marine-SCV all-ins etc. it happens pretty often.
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On February 08 2012 19:40 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:38 mordk wrote:On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it Nope, you're wrong. Most protoss do not play like this, and those who do are not GSL level. It's easy to pull off at a mid-level player skill range, that's true, but without perfect execution it won't take you far. MC has the best micro and forcefields right now and that's the only reason it seems so easy for him to do it, while everyone else just fails at making it successful. In this game in particular jjakji teched way too hard, believing Parting wasn't going to attack. Parting hit a precise timing, designed to hit when there were very low medivac numbers, meaning the benefit of said teching hadn't hit yet. Had he waited a bit more he would have gotten rolled, no doubt, it was his only window to win and he played it well. And how would slower tech have helped? You need the tech to stand a chance against him forcefielding all your shit.
Once you already went for the 15CC you're pretty much enrailed, but what you have to see is that what was so perfect about Parting's play was the timing. Had he not 8-gated in that precise moment he would have lost without any chance of a comeback, even with good forecefields he would have been dropped to death. Parting made good use of a very small attack window and won, before jjakji's tech kicked in.
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On February 08 2012 19:40 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:38 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 19:35 avilo wrote:On February 08 2012 19:30 Trowa127 wrote:On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it As people have mentioned before, the build Parting used specifically countered the 15 cc because Jjakji can't pressure when Parting is on ONE GATE and 3 bases with 7 gates building because he has late medivacs. Thats right, 1 gate on 3 bases. So many builds could punish that. Parting's build worked so well because of the fact Jjakji cannot pressure at that time, and then he can just go crush him with his eco/production advantage. Pretty simple really, I'm surprised someone who understands the game on a 'deep' level like yourself can't see this. Considering your past as a Terran only player your comments are also incredibly ironic. You fail to see that jjakji is doing this build as a counter to 15 nexus because of how damn strong 15 nexus is. He is going 15 CC to attempt to even stay even with protoss in a macro game. If he doesn't and parting goes 15 nexus he's behind from pure build order. Also, you fail to see that even if jjakji did do a normal 1 rax expo...protoss can still do virtually the same build, or the 2.5 base version and the same thing will occur because Terran will just have their expo later anyways.... You do not understand this at any level obviously. 3 racks marine SCV pull destroys Nexus first. See MVP vs Hero in Blizzard Cup. No, it does not against good play from the Protoss, and especially not on Daybreak. There are better all-ins against Nexus first, but this is not the point. You can play a macro game against Nexus first.
... Yeah too long rush distance >>
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On February 08 2012 19:42 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:39 MorroW wrote:
no pro players want to give feedback or post in these forums because not its not always what you want to hear. and then you all come bashing
daybreak and metropolis are too long distances to punish something like this
you cant give the 15cc argument because 1rax expo gives a weaker followup than 15cc. thats why people go 15cc rofl, because the econ kicks in more quickly. then you get you extra raxes and geysers more quickly. you dont understand basic rts or tvp build.
toss scouts 15cc, grabs 2 nexuses, then goes onwards to not barely be able to defend, nope, he goes on to almost go kill protoss that was constantly building units on 2bases
you guys should realize me being in this game 12 hours a day for over a year knowing and talking to almost all pros plus practicing these gsl maps regularly, dont you think i should know the timings and find the flaws better than you?
its silly some tosses just come at me here just because they are defending their race
if you want feedback and pros opinions, the good and bad comes in a pack. im not gonna sit here and obliviously say "great timing on that 2base protoss" every time we watch gsl. please realize they can play macro oriented, they dont have to play like this. but they almost play like this exclusively because its more easy and they are more successful with it. Dumbass logic. By that logic people like idra would actually have a leg to stand on when they say zerg doesnt beat protoss.
He is pissed. People who just bash posts with actually some insight with one liners.
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GoGo MC! Make it happen :D
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Boom boom boom, MC kill immortals like nothing  PPP
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36919 Posts
Poll: Recommend Winners' Match Game 1?Yes (14) 42% No (13) 39% If you have time (6) 18% 33 total votes Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
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Weird map to take a nexus.
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Damnit, MC. 
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ugh, fucking bleh'shir >_>
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come on artosis.... that immortal shot 3 (!) times and he already stated his flowery phrase 'this immortal does a ton of damage'
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United States97274 Posts
the classic expand into die build. <3 pvp
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United Kingdom38149 Posts
Parting making the mistake of trying to expand
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EPT
