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On February 08 2012 19:38 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it Nope, you're wrong. Most protoss do not play like this, and those who do are not GSL level. It's easy to pull off at a mid-level player skill range, that's true, but without perfect execution it won't take you far. MC has the best micro and forcefields right now and that's the only reason it seems so easy for him to do it, while everyone else just fails at making it successful. In this game in particular jjakji teched way too hard, believing Parting wasn't going to attack. Parting hit a precise timing, designed to hit when there were very low medivac numbers, meaning the benefit of said teching hadn't hit yet. Had he waited a bit more he would have gotten rolled, no doubt, it was his only window to win and he played it well.
MC did the same timing attacks on the same maps against other terrans (mvp, mma come to mind), and lost badly.
Nothing else to say. Poor execution on one side of the games.
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On February 08 2012 19:38 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:36 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 19:35 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 08 2012 19:33 Medrea wrote:
Its like Im going crazy. Did everyone forget that cloaked banshees are stealthed and 3 nexus and 8 gates have no observer??
Terran should be untouchable to that attack So blind banshees is the answer? Its not blind? You really think protoss can hide all that shit from terran?? Upon scouting the third it will be around three minutes until a banshee is complete with cloak finished. It's about that time that Parting was at Jjakji's base with half a bajillion forcefields. You HAVE to do the banshee blindly BEFORE the third starts to actually be able to counter it.
How about just not going CC first?
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On February 08 2012 19:36 ThaSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:32 Solo Terran wrote:On February 08 2012 19:27 Noktix wrote:
God this thread is painful to read.
You mean to tell me if i take 3 Nexus off 1 gate and it goes unpunished i can make a powerful push after?! What is this madness?!?! Try going 3 CC's off of 1 rax and then hitting a timing that quickly against toss. You would need to build several barracks and then wait for a factory + wait for a starport + macro up an army + walk across the map. Protoss doesn't need medivacs then they can just warp in across the map no problem. This match up is really protoss favoured atm no way to deny it. This! Lots of protosses dont understand the game.
Haha way to just bash an entire race based on... nothing. Please stop these stupid insults. And yeah, "abusing" the Warp Gate mechanic can be pretty good at times. Same goes for Terran unique traits, such as floating buildings / MULEs / undeniable scout etc. Anyway let's watch the games and stop flaming >_<
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On February 08 2012 19:35 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:34 Shuffleus wrote:On February 08 2012 19:28 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it You have to love balance whiners. First day anyone does this build and already people are crying already. Perhaps wait until the mass of world class Korean Terran's have some time to figure out how to play vs this. People said the same shit about 1-1-1, Protoss deathball vs Zerg, Mutalisks vs Protoss and countless other stuff and it was all figured out despite a bunch whiners crying imbalance. Please tell me which other Protoss are successful doing this? A Protoss hasn't won a GSL in 11 months. You understand who you're labeling a 'balance whiner' right? Just because he plays professionally doesnt mean all his balance whine is correct. Yes, hes extremely good, but so is IdrA, and he, along with many other pros, balance whine. Nothing wrong with it IMO but it doesnt mean its correct.
You're accusing a pro zerg who was/is one of the biggest figureheads for supporting the argument that zvt/zvp were not imbalanced when all other zergs were complaining about it, of crying about pvt balance.
His whine doesnt come from playing sc2, his whine comes from understanding rts and observing the obvious problem of a player playing greedily economically while at the same time doing crippling damage to his opponent who is playing defensive before his (the protoss') economy even kicks in. It's pretty ludicrous.
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On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it
The game is kind of decided when the Terran goes for 15cc. It's a risky BO really. If the Terran for whatever reason decides to tech up a little bit before expand, I think he'd easily have the capability to punish the Toss in the time period when the Toss hasn't gotten his 8 gates up. Also weak against Banshee anything. It's certainly looks pretty insane at this point, but there's still a lot of holes to be exploited in the build. I think the difficult part is that it's impossible to ascertain (or at least as far as I can think of in racking my brain for all of 5 minutes...) the difference between this build and a traditional 1 gate expo into 2 base (which most of that early aggression business will fail against) before the point where a Terran can properly react to it. Meaning at best you're playing a game of rock, paper, scissors.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't actively played more than 10 games a month for over a year, but I'd like to think I have a general grasp upon the game and I'd be interested in seeing your complete analysis.
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On February 08 2012 19:38 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it Nope, you're wrong. Most protoss do not play like this, and those who do are not GSL level. It's easy to pull off at a mid-level player skill range, that's true, but without perfect execution it won't take you far. MC has the best micro and forcefields right now and that's the only reason it seems so easy for him to do it, while everyone else just fails at making it successful. In this game in particular jjakji teched way too hard, believing Parting wasn't going to attack. Parting hit a precise timing, designed to hit when there were very low medivac numbers, meaning the benefit of said teching hadn't hit yet. Had he waited a bit more he would have gotten rolled, no doubt, it was his only window to win and he played it well.
And how would slower tech have helped? You need the tech to stand a chance against him forcefielding all your shit.
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On February 08 2012 19:38 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:35 avilo wrote:On February 08 2012 19:30 Trowa127 wrote:On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it As people have mentioned before, the build Parting used specifically countered the 15 cc because Jjakji can't pressure when Parting is on ONE GATE and 3 bases with 7 gates building because he has late medivacs. Thats right, 1 gate on 3 bases. So many builds could punish that. Parting's build worked so well because of the fact Jjakji cannot pressure at that time, and then he can just go crush him with his eco/production advantage. Pretty simple really, I'm surprised someone who understands the game on a 'deep' level like yourself can't see this. Considering your past as a Terran only player your comments are also incredibly ironic. You fail to see that jjakji is doing this build as a counter to 15 nexus because of how damn strong 15 nexus is. He is going 15 CC to attempt to even stay even with protoss in a macro game. If he doesn't and parting goes 15 nexus he's behind from pure build order. Also, you fail to see that even if jjakji did do a normal 1 rax expo...protoss can still do virtually the same build, or the 2.5 base version and the same thing will occur because Terran will just have their expo later anyways.... You do not understand this at any level obviously. 3 racks marine SCV pull destroys Nexus first. See MVP vs Hero in Blizzard Cup.
No, it does not against good play from the Protoss, and especially not on Daybreak. There are better all-ins against Nexus first, but this is not the point. You can play a macro game against Nexus first.
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On February 08 2012 19:35 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:30 Trowa127 wrote:On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it As people have mentioned before, the build Parting used specifically countered the 15 cc because Jjakji can't pressure when Parting is on ONE GATE and 3 bases with 7 gates building because he has late medivacs. Thats right, 1 gate on 3 bases. So many builds could punish that. Parting's build worked so well because of the fact Jjakji cannot pressure at that time, and then he can just go crush him with his eco/production advantage. Pretty simple really, I'm surprised someone who understands the game on a 'deep' level like yourself can't see this. Considering your past as a Terran only player your comments are also incredibly ironic. You fail to see that jjakji is doing this build as a counter to 15 nexus because of how damn strong 15 nexus is. He is going 15 CC to attempt to even stay even with protoss in a macro game. If he doesn't and parting goes 15 nexus he's behind from pure build order. Also, you fail to see that even if jjakji did do a normal 1 rax expo...protoss can still do virtually the same build, or the 2.5 base version and the same thing will occur because Terran will just have their expo later anyways.... You do not understand this at any level obviously.
A 15 CC is stronger than a 15 Nexus because of Mules. Terrans are always ahead if they have even bases.
jjakji should have just scouted better and punished it.
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Parting'sb uild is smart, but "obvious". For months protoss were taking that quick 3rd, but followed with "I HAVE 3 NEXUS, time to double forge, put a robo and robo bay while teching to blink charge and storm".. And they were dying to anything in the process most of the time =)
With 8 gates you can have an army of zealots/sentries at your 3rd and stalkers in your main so you can't be dropped. It's smart, but obvious, the collective protoss mind should have done this for age :p
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i think i actually understand artosis's analysis
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On February 08 2012 19:39 MorroW wrote:
no pro players want to give feedback or post in these forums because not its not always what you want to hear. and then you all come bashing
daybreak and metropolis are too long distances to punish something like this
you cant give the 15cc argument because 1rax expo gives a weaker followup than 15cc. thats why people go 15cc rofl, because the econ kicks in more quickly. then you get you extra raxes and geysers more quickly. you dont understand basic rts or tvp build.
toss scouts 15cc, grabs 2 nexuses, then goes onwards to not barely be able to defend, nope, he goes on to almost go kill protoss that was constantly building units on 2bases
you guys should realize me being in this game 12 hours a day for over a year knowing and talking to almost all pros plus practicing these gsl maps regularly, dont you think i should know the timings and find the flaws better than you?
its silly some tosses just come at me here just because they are defending their race
if you want feedback and pros opinions, the good and bad comes in a pack. im not gonna sit here and obliviously say "great timing on that 2base protoss" every time we watch gsl. please realize they can play macro oriented, they dont have to play like this. but they almost play like this exclusively because its more easy and they are more successful with it.
oO
MorroW saying it like a baws. mad respect!
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On February 08 2012 19:39 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:38 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 19:36 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 19:35 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 08 2012 19:33 Medrea wrote:
Its like Im going crazy. Did everyone forget that cloaked banshees are stealthed and 3 nexus and 8 gates have no observer??
Terran should be untouchable to that attack So blind banshees is the answer? Its not blind? You really think protoss can hide all that shit from terran?? Upon scouting the third it will be around three minutes until a banshee is complete with cloak finished. It's about that time that Parting was at Jjakji's base with half a bajillion forcefields. You HAVE to do the banshee blindly BEFORE the third starts to actually be able to counter it. How about just not going CC first?
so terrans cant cc first and protosses can nexus first freely? what are you even trying to say
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Denmark145 Posts
On February 08 2012 19:38 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:35 avilo wrote:On February 08 2012 19:30 Trowa127 wrote:On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it As people have mentioned before, the build Parting used specifically countered the 15 cc because Jjakji can't pressure when Parting is on ONE GATE and 3 bases with 7 gates building because he has late medivacs. Thats right, 1 gate on 3 bases. So many builds could punish that. Parting's build worked so well because of the fact Jjakji cannot pressure at that time, and then he can just go crush him with his eco/production advantage. Pretty simple really, I'm surprised someone who understands the game on a 'deep' level like yourself can't see this. Considering your past as a Terran only player your comments are also incredibly ironic. You fail to see that jjakji is doing this build as a counter to 15 nexus because of how damn strong 15 nexus is. He is going 15 CC to attempt to even stay even with protoss in a macro game. If he doesn't and parting goes 15 nexus he's behind from pure build order. Also, you fail to see that even if jjakji did do a normal 1 rax expo...protoss can still do virtually the same build, or the 2.5 base version and the same thing will occur because Terran will just have their expo later anyways.... It's more dangerous. 1 rax FE can tech faster to a Cloaked Banshee, or pressures with Marines off 4/5 rax. And you can deal just fine with Nexus first with 1 rax gasless FE. (By the way, here it was 20 nexus before Core if I remember correctly.)
You can push out with about 13-14 marines at 6:30 regardless of doing a 16 CC or CC first Since you follow up with the quick 2 rax, and going cloak banshee follow ups loses to quick gateway pushes
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sentrys in 4g vs 4g, interesting
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On February 08 2012 19:37 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:34 Seraphone wrote:On February 08 2012 19:32 avilo wrote:On February 08 2012 19:26 Tsubbi wrote:
wouldnt cloaked banshee followup after cc first or 1 rax cc kill this build? protoss wouldn't even be able to scout that Nope. That would be an automatic loss because with 3 nexus even if he lost ~20 probes he will have the observer out and just chrono x3 nexus and still be at an advantage. The sad part is most people don't even realize that jjakji and other Terrans have to do ridiculous stuff like 15CC to even attempt a macro game, and then protoss simply takes a third nexus and is ahead and can STILL kill you with an attack...it's crazy to think anyone thinks this is normal for RTS. You should never be able to expand + straight up KILL your opponent when they have 3-5 bunkers up but protoss can do it... On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it Glad to see a common sense post from another pro here. No one is really willing to talk about balance at all (let alone in a live report thread) but if people do not see that it's insanely stupid for a protoss to be able to 2 base forcefield all-in z/p and still have their expo behind it in 0 danger...it's a bit crazy... And yes people, it's insanely easy to do, even NA mid-masters protoss can execute this stuff. Because NA mid masters players win GSL's. They can expand because you went CC first. You can't go CC and then whine than you have no pressure options. Regardless, your the guy who was balance whining about Protoss (and everything else ever in all matchups) back when Protoss couldn't actually win vs Terran so your opinion is worthless. There is a problem when you can expo AND kill your opponent at the same time. That is not just a SC concept, it's an RTS design concept that allows a game to be balanced. If you're able to freely expo + have the possibility of KILLING your opponent even when they are also 2 base AND massed base defenses...something is wrong.
Terran expo while they kill Zerg with a two racks. Zerg regularly attack whilst they expand.
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On February 08 2012 19:39 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:38 mvtaylor wrote:On February 08 2012 19:36 Medrea wrote:On February 08 2012 19:35 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 08 2012 19:33 Medrea wrote:
Its like Im going crazy. Did everyone forget that cloaked banshees are stealthed and 3 nexus and 8 gates have no observer??
Terran should be untouchable to that attack So blind banshees is the answer? Its not blind? You really think protoss can hide all that shit from terran?? Upon scouting the third it will be around three minutes until a banshee is complete with cloak finished. It's about that time that Parting was at Jjakji's base with half a bajillion forcefields. You HAVE to do the banshee blindly BEFORE the third starts to actually be able to counter it. How about just not going CC first?
CC first is fine... The problem is the follow-up, and how to react to fast third.
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Isn't LR threads supposed to be free of balance discussion/whine? It's all i see page after page.
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
On February 08 2012 19:38 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 19:35 avilo wrote:On February 08 2012 19:30 Trowa127 wrote:On February 08 2012 19:25 MorroW wrote:
just look at this, toss takes 3base and can just go and kill terran who sits defensive on 2base and gets bunkers
if you dont see the problem in this and why its abusive and obviously too strong i dont know what to say
you talk about mc doing this best in the world and thats why it only works for him.
well in reality most tosses play like this, vs zerg and terran and most tosses are very successful. thats why they are doing this. and no its not hard to do, its pretty easy in fact to execute.
anyone who understands rts and sc2 on a deep level would agree with me, no evidence is needed to "prove" that this is not that hard to do that only MC in the world can be successful with it As people have mentioned before, the build Parting used specifically countered the 15 cc because Jjakji can't pressure when Parting is on ONE GATE and 3 bases with 7 gates building because he has late medivacs. Thats right, 1 gate on 3 bases. So many builds could punish that. Parting's build worked so well because of the fact Jjakji cannot pressure at that time, and then he can just go crush him with his eco/production advantage. Pretty simple really, I'm surprised someone who understands the game on a 'deep' level like yourself can't see this. Considering your past as a Terran only player your comments are also incredibly ironic. You fail to see that jjakji is doing this build as a counter to 15 nexus because of how damn strong 15 nexus is. He is going 15 CC to attempt to even stay even with protoss in a macro game. If he doesn't and parting goes 15 nexus he's behind from pure build order. Also, you fail to see that even if jjakji did do a normal 1 rax expo...protoss can still do virtually the same build, or the 2.5 base version and the same thing will occur because Terran will just have their expo later anyways.... You do not understand this at any level obviously. 3 racks marine SCV pull destroys Nexus first. See MVP vs Hero in Blizzard Cup.
Pretty sure that was the supply drop premeditated 3rax marine scv all in..?
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EPT
