EPTDunno what I should've done, I mean sure, I did some errors here and there like lings retardedly attacking the farest stalkers instead of A-moving, but at this point it did not matter to me cauz even if I was a-moving correctly I'd have lost that fight horribly. Do I really have to abandon my third and make a lot of spines and pray that he doesn't go to my natural too quickly so that my spines are up ?...
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 84
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
Dunno what I should've done, I mean sure, I did some errors here and there like lings retardedly attacking the farest stalkers instead of A-moving, but at this point it did not matter to me cauz even if I was a-moving correctly I'd have lost that fight horribly. Do I really have to abandon my third and make a lot of spines and pray that he doesn't go to my natural too quickly so that my spines are up ?... | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On July 19 2013 00:38 RaiZ wrote: Alright, this is really getting on my nerves. What's exactly the best counter to 7 gates ? yeah I'm talking about the simplest one : http://drop.sc/349454?pass=32236c92-da9b-48bd-a6b7-0055d47fa166 Dunno what I should've done, I mean sure, I did some errors here and there like lings retardedly attacking the farest stalkers instead of A-moving, but at this point it did not matter to me cauz even if I was a-moving correctly I'd have lost that fight horribly. Do I really have to abandon my third and make a lot of spines and pray that he doesn't go to my natural too quickly so that my spines are up ?... Watching the replay, few observations; 1) Your opening was okay, although the later gas prevents speed, and taking one gas earlier to try to get that out won't set you behind much. It also lets you take some map control, and force out sentries if the toss wants to take a third, which will generally delay their tech. 2) You need to be constantly scouting with the lings. Once you finished scouting the main ramp, you just moved the lings back immediately. You should've sent two of them to the watchtowers, and kept the other two at the main ramp or third location. If you had seen that, you would have been able to check if he was moving that Zealot/stalker out to just shoo away the ling, or to protect a probe moving out for a pylon. 3) You need to send that second overlord in. You know that he hasn't taken ONE of the gases, but you have no idea if he's taken the other one, or even if he has other gateways up. If you had sent that one in, you may have lost it, but you would've seen the lack of both gases at 7 minutes, and the extra gateways. There's almost no reason in midmasters for someone not to take those two gases, unless they're taking some ultra-fast third, or doing a gateway attack. You'd know about the third, and you can scout the gates. 4) Instead of injecting with your natural queen the second time, make a creep tumor. You want to connect your bases for the roaches. The scouting difference made you make those lings at 7:30, instead of at just 7:00, and to be honest, you don't even know if he's even all-inning. It could be a pressure attack to take the third for all you knew. The simple answer is two-fold: Get ling speed earlier, and scout. If you had ling speed earlier, or knew that the attack was coming, you could've attacked that pylon and prevented the attack altogether. If that had happened, he would've either had to go back and take a third with highly delayed tech, or go allin with warp ins alllllll the way from his base. Both are scenarios preferable to you. Once you scout the 7-gate, make lings to deny that pylon, and throw down a macro hatchery in your main. From that point, pump units, do the standard roaches on zealots/lings on stalkers, constantly have a group of 10-12 lings running around the back to pick off pylons, and micro. If you do that, you'll be able to hold any gateway attack. Tech is entirely unnecessary. | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On July 18 2013 20:35 willstertben wrote: ht immortal mass gateway units with upgrades and force field how do you even battle this composition in hots? broods used to be the only answer in WOL but those effectively don't exist anymore cause tempest vs bl is like the hardest counter in the game. i don't like turtling so if there is a way without swarm hosts please tell me. i usually open roach hydra viper pressure but that obviously doesn't work against ht stuff. ultras get hard countered by immortal archon and cant do shit. swarm hosts seem like the only option? high master level Scarlett has been using a Ling-Infestor into Ultra/BL/Queen composition recently, that's dealt pretty well with stargate into gateway/robo/HT play in the later game. If you want to check out her games versus Hero, here's an examples of it working pretty well; It hinges really hard on getting Ultras out very quickly, as well as generally pretty low economy (3 bases until Ultras are on the field.) I have to say though, it seems really interesting. It seems to shut down phoenixes pretty hard, and gives you a really strong lategame push that can kill a lot of protosses. Hero was a little behind in this game, so I think this style is generally meant to A) Deny the 4th with the Ultras, and bait an Immortal/Archon commitment and then B) Transition into Brood Lords for a killing blow before Tempests can be out in force. | ||
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StillRooney
Sweden106 Posts
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willstertben
427 Posts
On July 19 2013 08:05 StillRooney wrote: What's the army composition I should go in ZvT when I encounter siege tank heavy mech on turtley maps like Akilon Wastes? I feel like roach/hydra/viper can't trade very well even if you constantly remax on lots of bases. If SH, how many? Do you go corruptors to protect your vipers? the key to beat ground mech really easily still is broods. vipers+ swarm host is a really strong composition to allow you to get 4-5 base then 4 broods + corruptor and ~4 infestors. pure viper swarm host hydra works as well but it's nowhere near as easy, cause you'll have to micro very carefully. with broods you just kinda a move. | ||
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Gr33n
Bahamas113 Posts
my zvz win rate is 80 percent because it hasnt changed at all since i left but TvZ i have a 39 percent win rate and im so lost for what to do. my micro is one of my best attributes so its not splitting vs mines but rather the same problem i have vs toss, identifying when they are scary for proper droning terrans are double expanding on me and im falling behind assuming more standard play (unless i get a lucky scout on fast cc) but by the time i scout the cc many of them already have it completed and turtle till its safe to move out. conversely they are doing more aggressive builds do too apparently the commonality of roach bane all ins. furthermore mutas imo suck ass. they cant fight lets be honest, i see that i cant function without them because of how powerful drops are but i cant even leave my base to harass the terran so i feel im investing massive amounts of cash into "anti drop" which seems silly vs toss MSC denys my front ling, this basically means im not able to see what hes chronoboosting and if one or both of my side overlords get scouted i cant overlord sac to find what build they are going. im not sure how to remedy this problem. also gate expands are a bother to me, prev if you massed an army to crush the aggressive toss and kill the army, your way ahead, but currently they just recall and laugh im sure that i had to produce such an army so early. also late game death ball toss, what is my death ball response? ive seen some swarm host corruptor viper but im not sure if this is right are there any high masters zergs here that might be able to give me a hand? when i used to coach friends i gave them a general timetable of "basic" timings a player might hit when you identify x thing at x mins etc and while this isnt always the case its a great starting point so something along these lines would be great playing on a friends acc atm since another buddy of mine got the MMR up a tad and i was lazy (really i didnt wana make my win ratios look bad) distantdrop 326 or my acc orange 338 id appreciate some help. only high masters players tho please im already low masters playing like an idiot :0 can i tag on no matter how many scv i kill it seems they are fine because of this super safe double expo... | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On July 20 2013 04:00 Gr33n wrote: Hey im a WoL high masters player all 3 races i took a 2 year break and just started playing again this week. im in low masters atm but struggling SO hard vs terran and identifying a few toss timings but primarily droning properly as ive decided to start learning zerg as my first HOTS race Alright, so Terran then Toss. While Terran does have a couple of aggressive options in their arsenal, since the hellbat nerf, they're honestly not that powerful. 3 CC is almost standard play now, so you can pretty much assume it's coming. However, around the 7 minute mark, you should be sending an overlord in to check whether or not they're making that third CC. In addition to that, you should have lings on both expansions to see when he's actually taking that third. If he hasn't taken it by 10 minutes, then you should expect some sort of push, or split drop. At this point, having good overlord spread is key, as well as having a ling in front of the Terran's main. Sure, HoTS might be different than WoL, but Zerg is still the reactionary race, so the more time you have, the better. If you don't like going Ling-Muta-Bane, Hyun has started a new, pretty powerful, style of playing ZvT. It's basically reliant on strong upgrades, and denying the 4th base of the Terran. You will not make any other units besides Lings, Banes, and Roaches. Here's how you play this style - Use the groups of units and spores to defend drops, go up to 4 bases ASAP with a macro hatchery, and then about when the Terran is ready to take a 4th, start on onslaught of units to take them out. Make sure the banelings connect on the marines, and use the roaches to snipe tanks if there are any. So Protoss, you basically just need to scout them. Personally, I open with a gas at about 4:30, so I have ling speed ready at a reasonable time. This lets me dodge the mothership core, ensure I see the front of the natural, and check for any pylons around the map. Sure, it delays your macro a bit, but it also makes sure that you don't die to some 7 gate or DT rush, so I think it's generally worth it. Those two overlords are pretty vital, and even if they're scouted, there's no way the Protoss can deny ALL of the information you can get. The information they really can't deny is whether or not they have the gas at the natural. If they don't have both gases at the 7:00 mark, when you usually send the overlord in, send a ling in to check the front. If you see the forge upgrading, then it's basically going to be a gateway timing. If you scout 2 gases, and you don't see Phoenixes by about the 7:45 minute mark, it's probably not some sort of stargate play. In the same vein, if you don't scout a voidray moving out with the MSC, a probe, and probably 2 zealots by about the same time, it's likely not stargate pressure. At that point, there are three potential options; Dark Templar, Sentry Immortal Push or Expand, or Blink All-in. You should preferably start your lair by 7:30, maybe even 7:00 if you can afford it, so send in an overseer as soon as you can. If the protoss player seems to be constantly attempting to get probes out onto the map, and sends new ones out every time you catch a different one, that's a pretty strong tell for Dark Templar play. It's smart to throw down a spore in your natural and third around the 8:00-8:30 mark, honestly. It's 250 mins, but it'll probably come in handy at some point in the game. After that, just send some lings in to scout the unit composition. If it's sentry heavy, with no immortals, it's probably DTs. If it has immortals and sentries, obviously an immortal sentry push. If it's heavy on stalkers, Blink allin probably. The key at that point in the game is to check for an expansion. If you don't see a third by about the 9 minute mark, that's your cue to start making nothing but units, and get ready to defend some sort of allin attack. Your overseer should've been in by now, and told you whether or not it's a heavy gateway attack, or what. One of the key indicators of whether or not the protoss is taking a third, or pushing, is the timing of the extra gateways. If they're already up to 7 gates before taking the third, it's probably going to be some sort of push. If they go for the push, and then just recall out, I know it's annoying, but you're not dead. Once you know you're not under pressure, throw down a hydra den and an infestation pit. If you have good viper micro, go for Roach/Hydra/Viper, and constantly poke at him, while pulling in expensive units. The key to that playstyle is ensuring they don't get a critical mass of voids/colossi, while gradually switching to something involving Swarmhosts. If you don't like the SH playstyle, you can also play Muta into Ultra/Infestor/BL. And if you don't like Muta, then you can check out Scarlett's fast Ultra builds vs Hero that I posted in this thread a little while ago. Generally, your decisions should be based on maps. Like, you should not go Roach/Hydra/Viper on Akilon wastes, considering you will never be able to get the vipers into a good position, and the 4th is so easy to get. However, maps like Whirlwind have some open ground that you can maneuver through, and grab expensive units through, so it would work well there. I'm a top 8 Masters, for reference. | ||
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obis
Canada98 Posts
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Gr33n
Bahamas113 Posts
i had 2 dif people do a 2 gas all zel DT rush.... that worked because i only scouted 2 gas and didnt get an overseer lol the idea of switching INTO swarmhost is something i havent been doing but makes sense in some of my losses from trying to mass them first thanks | ||
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Marioff
9 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On July 21 2013 09:31 Marioff wrote: When build an additional queen for creepspreed in ZvT if i open with gas? That's really up to you, but i get my 3rd queen pretty early. I like right after my first 2 queens. | ||
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LordYama
United States370 Posts
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Gr33n
Bahamas113 Posts
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learning88
United States160 Posts
I think the time 4 gate pressure is supposed to hit around 7 min mark. I've been trying to defend with lings because I was going for my Ling/Muta strat but that has fallen out of favor for me as I can't seem to win any games anymore. I almost always lose my third and although I play it out, I know I've already lost once my third goes down  How do I transition and add in Hydras? What is a solid ZvP supposed to look like? Is there a video of a solid hold of 4-gate pressure and just a normal macro ZvP that you guys can recommend me? Thanks!!! | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
if you want to defend with roaches you should skip ling speed and pop down your first 2 gases and a roach warren at about 5 min, but it's easy to fall behind from there if he doesn't commit to an attack. i tried to play this way in the past cause i think holding 4 gate with lings is a LOT harder than doing 4gate is but as i got more comfortable with lings i found it transitions much better into a solid mid game because you get more minerals which makes it much easier to hold off 2 base allin follow ups. | ||
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Daedalus0815
Germany9 Posts
We saw the Dong trying to fend of SD's 7gate with mutas in the first game, which failed to around 8ish stalkers with +2/+1 and guardian shield. The second game JD took a risk rushing for that vipers. Worked out fine though, thanks to Stardust leaving him that much time. Game 3 wasslightly different due to the missing sentries in Stardust's army. So I was wondering: Why do pro Zergs not use banelinge bombs in that situation anylonger? Is that not a viable way to get rid of most of the army beside the immortals? What are your thoughts on that? | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
it was a little imbalanced back when that still worked as you could mass bling drop, kill toss ball and then win with a remax faster than protoss can. ontop of that it's a 300/300 investment that just isn't really worth it. zerg in this metagame just isn't at much of an economically leading position when most protoss allins occur so you can't hold them cost inefficiently, which is like the definition of a bling. and without drops + overlord speed force fields and some basic splitting pretty much hard counter banelings. ling bling is by far the best way to hold 1 gas immortal zealot attacks though! | ||
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mXWPRIME
Germany4 Posts
i usually manage to get ahead in the early-midgame but then i struggle to get the killing push with my roach hydra (sometimes infestors) this is so annoying because i really try to avoid playing mass muta myself in this matchup. http://drop.sc/350238 | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
What if they come with +1 attack, which I think they usually do? My Ling get SHREDDED even if I have a CRAZY amount. Back to the gas question, when do I take my gases? So if they gate expand: I get 1 gas immediately and mine until 100 for ling speed. Then I'm guessing at 6:30 you go back to gas and get 1 more geyser? If they forge FE, get 2 gas at 6:00, get ling speed and then lair? Also, is there a way to talk to someone about ZvP like a chat? I like the forums and all but I have soooo many questions and don't want to take up the whole essay for it. | ||
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FinBenton
Finland870 Posts
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