EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 86
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learning88
United States160 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On July 23 2013 11:35 learning88 wrote: What if I scout that he was Forge fast expanding, should I pull drones to take out the pylon? I'm afraid if I wait for lings, cannons could get up and then I would rage...like a beast lol. If he pylon blocks your natural right on your expo location, dont worry if hes doing an FFE. If he makes a pylon behind your mineral line, pull ~3 drones UNLESS if hes nexus firsting, or if you see a 16 forge, its going to be less aggressive. a 13 forge though, you may want to pull more. | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On July 23 2013 11:47 learning88 wrote: Okay I see. But at the time that my expo is being blocked, I should make an overlord and like 4 lings to get rid of the cannon. Then I wait to take my expo after the pylon is down or should I take my third while instead of my nat for the time being? (This is off a 14/15 pool. hatch first is completely different) If he blocks your expo, being probe or pylon, make an ovie at 16. -KEEP IN MIND- Just because he cannons your natural and they go up does NOT mean you lost. If you kill his probe and he has only 1 cannon, you dont even need lings. Make a spine, bring your queen and kill the cannon. But yeah, if he goes nexus first, stay calm. In those shoes just make lings. If hes going for a 13 forge, pull drones and make lings, then follow up with spines if you go that far. vs a 16 forge, play a bit more conservatorily. Please someone else put in input, im actualy very inexperienced in these situations and im running off of theory. | ||
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Gr33n
Bahamas113 Posts
On July 23 2013 11:41 DilemaH wrote: If he pylon blocks your natural right on your expo location, dont worry if hes doing an FFE. If he makes a pylon behind your mineral line, pull ~3 drones UNLESS if hes nexus firsting, or if you see a 16 forge, its going to be less aggressive. a 13 forge though, you may want to pull more. is it 3 or 4 drones that kill a cannon before it goes up. the MOST important thing about defending cannon rushing hatches is that they dont get up a wall behind the minerals. if a probe is acting "fishy" send 1 drone to mess with him and if he starts making a pylon wall put your drone in the path of his ideal wall and grab more drones to kill the probe/cannon also ALWYS send an overlord to your 3rd in case he cannons that. this is pretty common among my group of friends and you do see it on ladder here and there something you can do if you like is do a 12 pool, if they are being VERY greedy on a large ramp map you can often cripple them with a zergling rush without, contrary to im sure many peoples thoughts, ruining your own econ. on ladder i always scout with a drone too because u never know, they may proxy 2 gate you! and this scouting nets you many free wins when you consider players become "complacent" and just go through the thought motions like "he isnt going to send lings at me because he knows i could just wall off, so im going to do a later gateway and chrono more probes out! now you win a game bam | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
also it helps that most protosses instantly fall apart and are pretty easy to beat when they can't follow a simple step by step build order with a simple allin attack anymore. | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On July 23 2013 10:20 Phrencys wrote: Wow CivilAnarchy that was very helpful. Those games actually looked so easy to defend it makes me wonder why I overthink this problem that much. Do you have any replays of people going all-in with a 10/10/10 baneling rush, or perhaps mass ling committed attack that hits before queen#2 is out? For example, I could see the 3-4 early banelings of a 10/10/10 rush being a problem with a 6-8 slowlings defense. Do you just park your queens on the ramp with a spine or two at the bottom and wait for queen #3 and queen#4 to pop for injects? Also, final question. How do you go about opening gasless on Korhal Sky Island LE when spawning on the 4o'clock and 11'oclock positions? Thank you very much for your tips! BTW Nexlux is also fantastic. He helped me a lot as a (free) coach on nerdupgrades.com and he posts a lot on reddit/allthingszerg. I'll make sure to let him know he's featured on TL.  Sorry, but I haven't been baneling allinned in quite some time. However, Vortix used one against Jaedong in Game 2, so feel free to check out how he held it; http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhacktv/b/433157818?t=3h36m5s Honestly, 10/10/10 is extremely weak if you split your lings and drones, and keep making queens. You'll simply overpower them if you ensure your drones are split up. I actually veto Korhal Sky Island entirely haha, because it's just a bad map overall when you have those positions. I don't think you actually can wall off both ramps before a speedling attack were to it, unless you cut your production significantly. I would either downvote that map, or open with gas there specifically. | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On July 23 2013 11:47 learning88 wrote: Okay I see. But at the time that my expo is being blocked, I should make an overlord and like 4 lings to get rid of the cannon. Then I wait to take my expo after the pylon is down or should I take my third while instead of my nat for the time being? You should be making four lings after your pool regardless of the situation, simply to deal with proxy pylons, scouting, ect ect. Personally, I put my second overlord over the natural, and then send it to the scouting position after I can confirm the expansion is safe. If you're scouting at 7 minutes, you'll be able to get the overlord there in time. You should take your third base instead of natural if he decides to pylon block it. If he makes the cannon at the pylon used to block the expansion, then your lings will be there in time to handle it, provided you went 14 or 15 pool. If you can confirm he's trying to make a cannon with the blocking pylon, and you've messed up your ling timings or something, pull 4 drones to deal with the cannon. It's not ideal, but it's better than having to deal with the cannon later on. And if it's behind the mineral line, just through a cannon rush, use queens and spines to deal damage, along with a few lings to cover the spines as they move into position. I also disagree with both of the other suggestions, about 12 pooling and hatchery blocking. Firstly, any Protoss that is going to pylon block your natural is also going to scout your main, meaning, that they're going to be aware of the 12 pool. This means that they will simply go FFE, not pylon block you, and you end up with a three drone disadvantage entirely unnecessarily. I get some people dislike dealing with a pylon block, but setting yourself even farther behind is not a good idea. The simple fact that almost no pro player 12 pools against Protoss should convince you of the fact that it's generally not a good idea, and relies on your opponent reacting badly, rather than giving you some form of advantage. When you're playing, as a general rule, you want to do things that put you in a superior position, without having to simply hope your opponent isn't scouting or is thrown off by your build. In the same vein Hatchery blocking is not a good idea either. The correct response to a hatchery block is a 4gate, and with the delayed expansion on your part, plus the loss of 200 minerals, you'd be hard pressed to be able to hold it later on. It's a huge commitment that people played around with back in WoL, but people came to the understanding that it puts you much farther behind than it benefits you. The problem with it is that the Protoss is entirely undelayed as far as tech goes, but you're setting behind your larva and queen production significantly. Use the drone to delay their expansion, but don't commit to a Hatchery block. | ||
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Gr33n
Bahamas113 Posts
On July 23 2013 21:30 willstertben wrote: the best response to a pylon block on your nat imo is making a hatch on his nat, getting a queen, 2 lings and spam drones. keep one drone attacking the pylon. just expand when pylon dies. let hatch at his nat finish if his cannon isn't very close to it, otherwise cancel and maybe make an evo. when hatch finishes make a queen and lings and time it out so both pop at the same time. make a creep tumor behind his nat minerals and defend tumor with lings + queen. it is possible for protoss to surround queen with probes as it pops out because it will always spawn at the same spot but most protosses don't know about that. especially not those who still pylon block. from that point you pretty much win automatically if you react properly. also it helps that most protosses instantly fall apart and are pretty easy to beat when they can't follow a simple step by step build order with a simple allin attack anymore. so true this is pretty commonly done by tilea if anyone doubts the legitimacy of this claim. its actually VERY VERY good if done properly the correct response to a hatch block is 4 gate lol? u mean that thing that needs gas (which he has not taken yet) and a gateway cyber (which he has not completed yet) and you can spine up and just drone? no hatch block works well if done right there are many options not everything is just "take the 3rd" and macro. not all hatch blocks are even a FFE he might just be gateway expanding here is the math 100 for pylon, 100 for pylon at home, 150 for forge, 150 for a cannon if he wants to kill the hatch and we are at 450 for the hatch but 350 for the zerg. you can also kill a probe sometimes with the broodlings bringing the total to 500 for the toss. lets say you are able to get off a creep tumor behind the hatch (the ideal location) he cant expand without A a robo, now you know its a robo 1 base or B a cannon (another 150 justifying the cost of a queen) but more important then all of this, a delayed base and zerg on 2 base is MILES ahead of protoss on 1 compared to a zerg on 3 base vs a protoss on 2 which is FAR more even now lets factor in that you know the correct "response" to take while most protoss even high masters and many GM are very "build order" "timing" centric in play who now have a monkey wrench thrown into his BO. you a zerg who has thrived on scouting constantly and playing reactive macro are at an adv | ||
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CivilAnarchy
United States59 Posts
On July 24 2013 06:04 Gr33n wrote: so true this is pretty commonly done by tilea if anyone doubts the legitimacy of this claim. its actually VERY VERY good if done properly the correct response to a hatch block is 4 gate lol? u mean that thing that needs gas (which he has not taken yet) and a gateway cyber (which he has not completed yet) and you can spine up and just drone? no hatch block works well if done right there are many options not everything is just "take the 3rd" and macro. not all hatch blocks are even a FFE he might just be gateway expanding here is the math 100 for pylon, 100 for pylon at home, 150 for forge, 150 for a cannon if he wants to kill the hatch and we are at 450 for the hatch but 350 for the zerg. you can also kill a probe sometimes with the broodlings bringing the total to 500 for the toss. lets say you are able to get off a creep tumor behind the hatch (the ideal location) he cant expand without A a robo, now you know its a robo 1 base or B a cannon (another 150 justifying the cost of a queen) but more important then all of this, a delayed base and zerg on 2 base is MILES ahead of protoss on 1 compared to a zerg on 3 base vs a protoss on 2 which is FAR more even now lets factor in that you know the correct "response" to take while most protoss even high masters and many GM are very "build order" "timing" centric in play who now have a monkey wrench thrown into his BO. you a zerg who has thrived on scouting constantly and playing reactive macro are at an adv Tilea plays random, firstly, and doesn't actually do the Hatch block in competitive play; So I don't know what you're talking about as for this hatch block stuff. And even if she has done it in a few games, Catz has also gone 4 hatchery before pool against Protoss. This doesn't mean it's a good idea, or a good standard strategy, it just means one player has decided to do it. The reality is we can take 99 Zerg players in ZvP, and see that they actively decide not to do this strategy, because it is bad. And yes, a four gate is the correct response to this strategy. I don't know if you've heard of it, but 4gate pressure off a FFE is actually a highly common opener, and builds well into a 6gate allin or teching builds. You, as the Zerg, need to make sure that you're going to protect your third base against that attack. Considering 1 base Protoss economy is more than enough to support 4gate production, setting their expansion back actually achieves nothing as to delaying or dealing with the attack itself. However, you now have less queens, a lower gas count, and likely a delayed roach warren. This is the point that you miss entirely, that protoss tech can advance even with a delayed expansion, but the tech zerg requires to deal with this sort of play is reliant on the timing of that natural hatchery. Sure a delayed natural for the protoss can delay any sort of Robo or Stargate tech, but not any form of gateway pressure. Without that creep spread, and without the roach count, a 4gate pressure attack will kill your third, putting you in a horrible position. Your math is entirely incorrect, because all of the things you mention, besides the pylon to block your hatchery, are things that the protoss doesn't actually lose. In most situations, they were already going to get a forge, cannon, and pylon (definitely a pylon, come on) at their ramp to take the expansion anyway. So you're not actually hurting them when they put down a forge. In addition to that, they will always be able to kill your hatchery before a queen can get out to lay down a tumor, or, even better, they'll be smart enough to not let it happen. There is no world where you will finish an entire hatchery, and queen, before the protoss player gets at least one zealot. This means that your chance of getting a creep tumor down, if the hatchery even survives that long, is next to nothing. The reality is, if you do this build, you're either going to be contained on two bases while the Protoss is able to get his up significantly faster than if you had just taken the third anyway, or you're just going to die to some Gateway timing that you're going to be entirely ill prepared for. People have tried these builds, and there's a reason they're not used by 99/100 pro players. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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willstertben
427 Posts
vs ultra tech i think you need to kill him before his tech is out or you'll just lose. or maybe make tons of spines and swarm hosts, i honestly don't know how ultras vs swarm hosts battles go, never seen it. but just from what i think swarm host should have the upper hand (with large enough SH count), as you should be ahead on upgrades for a long time and can spread out locusts a bit maybe, and ultra armor isn't as effective vs pretty high damage locust attack as vs some other units. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 25 2013 04:56 Zorkmid wrote: In ZvZ playing vs ling mutas into ultras with roach/hydra, do I need to kill him before he gets many ultras out? Or can I transition. If so, how? You have to kill him before ultras are out or do a ton of damage to him economically. If you let him get ultra tech out and you didn't kill him or do any damage or you are just passively sitting back, you should lose the game. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On July 25 2013 07:02 blade55555 wrote: You have to kill him before ultras are out or do a ton of damage to him economically. If you let him get ultra tech out and you didn't kill him or do any damage or you are just passively sitting back, you should lose the game. have you seen/done swarm host turtling vs ultra? how does that go? genuinely interested now | ||
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Gr33n
Bahamas113 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 25 2013 07:57 willstertben wrote: have you seen/done swarm host turtling vs ultra? how does that go? genuinely interested now I have been doing muta/ling/bane/swarmhost into ultra. I don't play the roach style everyone else does. So while I haven't done that, I can tell you that unless you have very few numbers, swarmhosts do beat ultra. | ||
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harelk1
Israel11 Posts
1) 4 Gate 2 base prussure- scouting is ez but what best way to react-- i just try to search for Proxy pylons and send ling's to kill the probe to make sure he cant bring any unit's--- is there better way? 2) 7gate 1 gas-- how do i scout this build? the Lack of gas is realy hard to see. and the push is realy early. 3)i Have Trouble understanding when should i attack and with which Compo in - ZvP And ZvT as well zvp- i go roach hydra corruptor and try to end the game b4 he take's 4th base and get's storm but other than that i have nothing zvt- i go for the Ling Bling muta--- but dosent realy understand's it... i know the build, (vs BIO Of course) but i have trouble with attacking and Defending-- i attack usually when he take's 3rd base and try to ling runby+muta harass, but it's seem's like mules always overcome me and I End up losing Unit's. how can i harass terran more efficently? and how and when to attack? | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On July 25 2013 21:25 harelk1 wrote: Whats The Best way to scout and handle the Following things: 1) 4 Gate 2 base prussure- scouting is ez but what best way to react-- i just try to search for Proxy pylons and send ling's to kill the probe to make sure he cant bring any unit's--- is there better way? 2) 7gate 1 gas-- how do i scout this build? the Lack of gas is realy hard to see. and the push is realy early. 3)i Have Trouble understanding when should i attack and with which Compo in - ZvP And ZvT as well zvp- i go roach hydra corruptor and try to end the game b4 he take's 4th base and get's storm but other than that i have nothing zvt- i go for the Ling Bling muta--- but dosent realy understand's it... i know the build, (vs BIO Of course) but i have trouble with attacking and Defending-- i attack usually when he take's 3rd base and try to ling runby+muta harass, but it's seem's like mules always overcome me and I End up losing Unit's. how can i harass terran more efficently? and how and when to attack? 1) vs FFE: 6:30 no gas natural + forge spinning + sac ovi. build 6:30 roach warren and roaches (possibly at your 3rd base). dont build lings, just roaches and drones. since it can also mean 6-8 gate all in i like to get burrow too. vs gate first: scout 3 gates in wall + his gate in main = 99% chance of 4 gate pressure. you can hold this either with speedlings + 1-3 spines or (imo the better option) with roaches. i like to get burrow vs 3 gate wall off since almost always it means 4 gate pressure and since he cant have observer burrow is nice to have. 2) on most maps you will be able to spot the gas count with overlord. sac ovi and see lots of gates + again scout for forge spinning or not. vs anything that is not 2 gas natural i like to get burrow and fast roach warren + speed before lair. 3) imo roach hydra and especially roach hydra corruptor is bad in ZvP. going for ling hydra into SHs is the better option or ling hydra into muta (you can skip hydras if he doesnt open stargate/attack you). if you really want to go roach hydra, go for no or only few hydras and tech to very fast hive and do a roach hydra viper timing attack before he has HT or at least before storms are out. as for ZvT: try to establish fast 3 bases and once you see he goes for fast 3rd base, take a 4th and after that you can attack. thing is that from 3 base you have very few gas to get upgrades, lots of banes and mutas so its better imo to get up to 8 gases and then start attacking. since ZvT is broken atm you will have to outplay an equally skilled opponent. you can go ling bane mass muta and stay on lair (which dies once 3/3 finishes vs your 2/2), you can try ling bane muta into ultras and infestors (which dies to constant aggression) or you can try new stuff like ling bane muta into SHs or infestors or hive just for upgrades but no ultras...dont know and seeing pros play, they dont know either. some tips: get ovispeed when spire is 80% done so it finishes with your mutas popping and you can keep 1 overseer with your mutas (overseer is still much slower but at least can keep up a bit better). get burrow and burrow groups of 2 banes all over the attack path (not at the edge of creep since he will scan there always). send in small groups of lings and 2-3 banes to kill/detonate mines. spread your ovis so you can see drops incoming and have the rest of your ovis hover near your natural/3rd, so in case you see a push thats game ending for you take your ovis and let them take mineshots. you´ll probably lose a lot of them but better than dying instantly. always try to flank so he cant just let mines do all the work. always keep burrowed lings all over the map to keep vision and if possible changelings with his army. always replenish creep. its one of the last powerful weapons Z has vs T. also you can try hyuns speedroach, speedbane, speedling style with fast 4 bases and just mass roach ling bane all game long with some spores and spines for drop defense and doing constant pushes. | ||
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harelk1
Israel11 Posts
if there's any other opinion or tips, i would like to hear about them btw: High Master Zerg EU | ||
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dragoon
United States695 Posts
also, any recommended games from dreamhack that demonstrate this? i just got all the replays :D | ||
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