2) 7gate 1 gas-- how do i scout this build? the Lack of gas is realy hard to see. and the push is realy early.
With good overlord placement it's usually pretty easy to spot how many gas. In the rare times (most often map dependent) you're unable to scout gas the next best thing is scouting his probe count. Obviously, a low count for either one of these factors translates to early aggression in which case you cut back on your drone count and get units earlier. Stop the push then expand/drone up.
Imo a great unit composition to deal with an extreme early push is ling/Bling.........and in general its an extremely strong unit composition vs protoss. Just log onto bnet, click on Arcade, and type in unit tester online. Then simply practice with ling/Bling vs. the early push you're talking about. I think you'll be quite pleased.
I agree with Decendos that Roach, Hydra, Corruptor is bad vs Protoss. Go to the same online unit tester (terrain tab and pick "field"), give protoss around 170 supply with 5-6 Colossus (thermo upgrades too) with a bunch of stalkers/zealots. Then grab your Zerg guy and give them 270 supply of hydra/roach/corrupter and literally watch the entire Zerg army get crushed.
Then grab "170" supply of ling/Bling (25-33% Bling works well) vs the same Protoss composition and watch as you crush them. The point I'm trying to make is most people seem to undervalue ling/Bling in this match up. So try ling/Bling and transition your late game into Ultra or BLords (with ling/Bling support too!).
I'm just another gold zerg trying to figure out zvp. My main problems are dealing with early pressure effectively, dealing with sentries and mass ff (either when they pressure all-in or turtle) and fighting the late game protoss death-ball.
One of my main problems is people keep saying oh just watch pros and emulate that kind of play. I don't 300 apm, amazing map awareness and crazy good unit control.
I want to get better but this is just a wall for me. I don't believe in my swarm and I feel like I am fighting the avatar of death.
This is starting to affect my other match-up and my play is becoming worse overall.
On July 26 2013 18:53 Darkexp3rt wrote: I'm just another gold zerg trying to figure out zvp. My main problems are dealing with early pressure effectively, dealing with sentries and mass ff (either when they pressure all-in or turtle) and fighting the late game protoss death-ball.
One of my main problems is people keep saying oh just watch pros and emulate that kind of play. I don't 300 apm, amazing map awareness and crazy good unit control.
I want to get better but this is just a wall for me. I don't believe in my swarm and I feel like I am fighting the avatar of death.
This is starting to affect my other match-up and my play is becoming worse overall.
Any guidance or help would be appreciated.
as for early pressure: you need to learn to scout gas timings and the forge with ovi/ling to see it coming and defend with roaches and/or speedlings.
mass FF spam and lategame P deathball both can be fought off with SH play. since you say you dont have that much APM try to not get too many bases, get SHs with a lot of spines and spores up and tech to vipers while slowly creeping forward and taking bases. once you get faster and better, use less spines and spores, more army support and be more aggressive with them.
I'm just another gold zerg trying to figure out zvp. My main problems are dealing with early pressure effectively
Hard to give specific advice w/out a replay! :D
But honestly, it's a pretty good bet most of your problems are happening due to poor mechanics. And you don't need 300 apm to succeed with zerg. My friend is a low Masters player and averages in the 80s. Imo poor execution in regards to Hot keys and game awareness is the sole factor why people are unable to reach Platinum/Diamond.
I'd suggest prioritizing 4 main things as a zerg; 1) Injects. 2) Supply. 3) Spending your larvae. 4) Creep spread.
Keep going through that cycle over and over and over again. A few tips....go to Global hotkeys > unit management > choose ability or A.I. Target > and assign a secondary hot key. This will help speed up injects, creep spread, and overall game micro/macro. Additionally, with lower apm I find it best to hotkey all your Hatcheries together because it makes spending larvae and keeping tabs on production a lot easier.
Another tip...pretty much every day modern mouse has 2-5+ buttons on them. Assign 2 of those buttons to the "control" key and "shift" key. You'll be amazed at how quickly you can now assign control groups, shift+ add new units/larvae to already assigned control groups, set up camera locations, and in general, greatly improve your game.
I'm just another gold zerg trying to figure out zvp. My main problems are dealing with early pressure effectively
Hard to give specific advice w/out a replay! :D
But honestly, it's a pretty good bet most of your problems are happening due to poor mechanics. And you don't need 300 apm to succeed with zerg. My friend is a low Masters player and averages in the 80s. Imo poor execution in regards to Hot keys and game awareness is the sole factor why people are unable to reach Platinum/Diamond.
I'd suggest prioritizing 4 main things as a zerg; 1) Injects. 2) Supply. 3) Spending your larvae. 4) Creep spread.
Keep going through that cycle over and over and over again. A few tips....go to Global hotkeys > unit management > choose ability or A.I. Target > and assign a secondary hot key. This will help speed up injects, creep spread, and overall game micro/macro. Additionally, with lower apm I find it best to hotkey all your Hatcheries together because it makes spending larvae and keeping tabs on production a lot easier.
Another tip...pretty much every day modern mouse has 2-5+ buttons on them. Assign 2 of those buttons to the "control" key and "shift" key. You'll be amazed at how quickly you can now assign control groups, shift+ add new units/larvae to already assigned control groups, set up camera locations, and in general, greatly improve your game.
Other than those ideas we need a replay lol.
As a top gold zerg (formally Diamond protoss), I can agree with this, specifically #2, supply. When i forget overlords a few times before hitting 150 supply I usually lose, when I don't, I win (generally). I also struggle with basic unit control and lose big armies for nothing, but if the rest of my game is OK (i.e. solid economy 3/4 base with lots of larvae around due to good injects) I can still remax and win games.
Just so you all know, I got my first zerg win today!! I was something like 0-12 before (probably silver level zerg playing at diamond MMR due to terran)
I got 1000 wins as protoss is WoL I got 1000 wins as terran in Hots (a lot of wins from WoL too)
and now I am tossing up between playing random and playing zerg.
For me injects is not that big of a problem (my queens do build up energy at times but I always have way too much larvae anyway). But problem is not enough resources to spend the larvae on which is a result of me not droning enough. I guess I'm just not familiar with the timings enough to know when to drone, how little defense I can get away with, etc.
While learning zerg mechanics I feel like learning build orders should be put on the back burner so I would like to find a style that I could do on all maps against all races. Does a 3 base roach / hydra style work? It seems easier than any zerg / bane / muta play.
Do you think Ling/Bane can work against gate expand 4 gate pressure? I tried to hold off something like that before but I eventually got rolled. However, that was due to my lack of tech and multitask.
Now because of how Protoss love to open Stargate, I can't use Mutas or else they'll just destroy me with Phoenix I've tried to play Hydra/SH but I can't control the SH that well and its rather frustrating when at times you think you told them to unburrow but you didn't and just watch them die to Collolsi beams -_-
Is there a way to make Spire tech work even against 2 Stargates? Like maybe open Hydra den and then quickly switch to Muta/Corr or maybe just open with Corr and then get Mutas?
Help me with this zvp please. I attached a link to the replay. I thought he would be behind after the DT failed, but then he went voids and had archons so I couldn't go muta. Seemed roach hydra was my only option but it got crushed. I though I scouted well but I had less drones because I had to defend zelots and DTs. Please let me know what I should have done. http://drop.sc/351769
Do you think Ling/Bane can work against gate expand 4 gate pressure? I tried to hold off something like that before but I eventually got rolled. However, that was due to my lack of tech and multitask.
Definitely. If you opened with some type of standard pool > Hatch > Hatch with at least 3 queens you'll be getting 6-7 larave every 40 seconds. So "19" larvae in 40 seconds > 3 for overlords > 16 for units > 32 lings just about every 60 seconds (24s build time). Protoss with 4 gate making some form of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry will make approximately 4 units every 45 seconds (zealots 38 build time/stalker 42 + 5 seconds warpgate cool down). This translates into approximately 16 units every 3 minutes, by which time you'd already have had the potential to produce 96 zerglings. Throw in some Blings and things become even more lopsided in your favor. With good scouting and a keen game sense you'll eventually get the hang of "when to drone" and when to make units. Obviously you can't, or at least don't want to stay on an indefinite 3 hatch non stop ling production lol.
Is there a way to make Spire tech work even against 2 Stargates? Like maybe open Hydra den and then quickly switch to Muta/Corr or maybe just open with Corr and then get Mutas?
Muta > than 3 Stargate!! I'll keep it short and simply provide a link from Day[9] showcasing 2 WCS Korea games between SoulKey and sOs. Day[9] provides additional insight and basically does a great job of communicating the thought process of the build from start to finish.
My zvt atm is scrappy, In kr im plat and hav 60%winrate. US diamond and 68% used to be 80% for us and went down. i do win more than i lose but its always so tense and messy. i like roach/ling/bling into muta>ultra infester. but wm seem to still hurt. just need to know if there is a way to split bit better against wm i try and sometimes works sometimes its worse. Also is ling roach corruptor still viable for zvp?
anyone want to help me let me know. I'm on tilt in zvp.
I need hard advice. How to scout pressure build. How to deal with stargate play How to deal with forcefield play. What my endgame army should look like.
unit counters how to cost effectly engage. my 200 food army gets facerolled by his 200 food army how to improve my macro.
On July 23 2013 21:30 willstertben wrote: the best response to a pylon block on your nat imo is making a hatch on his nat, getting a queen, 2 lings and spam drones. keep one drone attacking the pylon. just expand when pylon dies. let hatch at his nat finish if his cannon isn't very close to it, otherwise cancel and maybe make an evo. when hatch finishes make a queen and lings and time it out so both pop at the same time. make a creep tumor behind his nat minerals and defend tumor with lings + queen. it is possible for protoss to surround queen with probes as it pops out because it will always spawn at the same spot but most protosses don't know about that. especially not those who still pylon block. from that point you pretty much win automatically if you react properly.
also it helps that most protosses instantly fall apart and are pretty easy to beat when they can't follow a simple step by step build order with a simple allin attack anymore.
so true this is pretty commonly done by tilea if anyone doubts the legitimacy of this claim. its actually VERY VERY good if done properly
the correct response to a hatch block is 4 gate lol? u mean that thing that needs gas (which he has not taken yet) and a gateway cyber (which he has not completed yet) and you can spine up and just drone? no hatch block works well if done right there are many options not everything is just "take the 3rd" and macro. not all hatch blocks are even a FFE he might just be gateway expanding
here is the math 100 for pylon, 100 for pylon at home, 150 for forge, 150 for a cannon if he wants to kill the hatch and we are at 450 for the hatch but 350 for the zerg. you can also kill a probe sometimes with the broodlings bringing the total to 500 for the toss. lets say you are able to get off a creep tumor behind the hatch (the ideal location) he cant expand without A a robo, now you know its a robo 1 base or B a cannon (another 150 justifying the cost of a queen) but more important then all of this, a delayed base and zerg on 2 base is MILES ahead of protoss on 1 compared to a zerg on 3 base vs a protoss on 2 which is FAR more even
now lets factor in that you know the correct "response" to take while most protoss even high masters and many GM are very "build order" "timing" centric in play who now have a monkey wrench thrown into his BO. you a zerg who has thrived on scouting constantly and playing reactive macro are at an adv
Tilea plays random, firstly, and doesn't actually do the Hatch block in competitive play;
So I don't know what you're talking about as for this hatch block stuff. And even if she has done it in a few games, Catz has also gone 4 hatchery before pool against Protoss. This doesn't mean it's a good idea, or a good standard strategy, it just means one player has decided to do it. The reality is we can take 99 Zerg players in ZvP, and see that they actively decide not to do this strategy, because it is bad.
And yes, a four gate is the correct response to this strategy. I don't know if you've heard of it, but 4gate pressure off a FFE is actually a highly common opener, and builds well into a 6gate allin or teching builds. You, as the Zerg, need to make sure that you're going to protect your third base against that attack. Considering 1 base Protoss economy is more than enough to support 4gate production, setting their expansion back actually achieves nothing as to delaying or dealing with the attack itself. However, you now have less queens, a lower gas count, and likely a delayed roach warren.
This is the point that you miss entirely, that protoss tech can advance even with a delayed expansion, but the tech zerg requires to deal with this sort of play is reliant on the timing of that natural hatchery. Sure a delayed natural for the protoss can delay any sort of Robo or Stargate tech, but not any form of gateway pressure. Without that creep spread, and without the roach count, a 4gate pressure attack will kill your third, putting you in a horrible position.
Your math is entirely incorrect, because all of the things you mention, besides the pylon to block your hatchery, are things that the protoss doesn't actually lose. In most situations, they were already going to get a forge, cannon, and pylon (definitely a pylon, come on) at their ramp to take the expansion anyway. So you're not actually hurting them when they put down a forge. In addition to that, they will always be able to kill your hatchery before a queen can get out to lay down a tumor, or, even better, they'll be smart enough to not let it happen. There is no world where you will finish an entire hatchery, and queen, before the protoss player gets at least one zealot. This means that your chance of getting a creep tumor down, if the hatchery even survives that long, is next to nothing.
The reality is, if you do this build, you're either going to be contained on two bases while the Protoss is able to get his up significantly faster than if you had just taken the third anyway, or you're just going to die to some Gateway timing that you're going to be entirely ill prepared for. People have tried these builds, and there's a reason they're not used by 99/100 pro players.
can you eat your words now that DRG hatch blocked at a TOURNY. i gota be honest low rated players posting "facts" really bother me
and just because a pro does something or doesnt is not why anything is good or bad
Help me with this zvp please. I attached a link to the replay.
You desperately need to work on your basic game mechanics. I.E: + Show Spoiler +
your pool finishes at 3:01 but you don't start your 1st Queen till 4:40 seconds (the time your 2nd Queen should just about be finished). At 5:41 seconds your at 29 supply when the standard is 44. The games hard, we all know . But you got put some hours in working on the basics. Look at it this way, at 5:40 seconds into the game, which is quite early, you're already behind the standard Zerg supply by 15. That's a pretty extreme difference so early in the game. And once again, at 8:00 your only at 53 supply, and one minute later you're at the exact same supply.
Here's a quick, random game I played vs the computer http://drop.sc/350459 to showcase some basic mechanics, i.e., injects, control groups, camera locations, supply timing, gas timings, and base saturation. Take a look at my 5:41, 8:00, and 9:08 second supply marks. They are 44 > 77 > and 117 respectively.
In ZvZ I've been opening gasless (with 15 hatch) and going for a 1/1 speed roach timing attack on two bases, but I've just been winging it, and since I'm platinum, I'm sure I'm not doing it optimally. Anyone have a build for that?
What are the benchmarks for the heavy upgraded ling into ultralisk that zergs briefly did at the start of hots? Search comes up with threads asking how to deal with it more than how to execute it.
Not really sure how to ask this more specifically. I mean ideally I'd have a build order, timings to look out for, and replays but an overview would suffice.
EPT
I've tried to play Hydra/SH but I can't control the SH that well and its rather frustrating when at times you think you told them to unburrow but you didn't and just watch them die to Collolsi beams -_-
. But you got put some hours in working on the basics. Look at it this way, at 5:40 seconds into the game, which is quite early, you're already behind the standard Zerg supply by 15. That's a pretty extreme difference so early in the game. And once again, at 8:00 your only at 53 supply, and one minute later you're at the exact same supply. 
