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Diamond level Z having trouble vs protoss
I just died to a 2 base 7 gate. I sacked an overlord but couldn't get deep into his base because of his initial stalker. Usually I can spot an all in because they don't hide it well or don't kill my OL in time, but this guy hid his gates. So how can I possibly scout an all in in time?? It hit at 8 min which is about when I get my lair if im playing standard. I guess I could get lair earlier so I can get a full scout but won't this put me behind if I'm playing against anything that isn't an all in? Do you guys get 100 gas quick for OV speed then stop getting gas?
What's the best way to get a full scout against a smart toss player, without falling behind.
Ok I watched my replay and my lair is just finished at 9 min which is when he hits with about 15 stalkers. So this is obviously far too late to scout. So I either get an even EARLIER lair(fuck that) or I get ovie speed then stop getting gas(this sounds better)
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On June 28 2013 11:00 wrekonize wrote:
Diamond level Z having trouble vs protoss
I just died to a 2 base 7 gate. I sacked an overlord but couldn't get deep into his base because of his initial stalker. Usually I can spot an all in because they don't hide it well or don't kill my OL in time, but this guy hid his gates. So how can I possibly scout an all in in time?? It hit at 8 min which is about when I get my lair if im playing standard. I guess I could get lair earlier so I can get a full scout but won't this put me behind if I'm playing against anything that isn't an all in? Do you guys get 100 gas quick for OV speed then stop getting gas?
What's the best way to get a full scout against a smart toss player, without falling behind.
Ok I watched my replay and my lair is just finished at 9 min which is when he hits with about 15 stalkers. So this is obviously far too late to scout. So I either get an even EARLIER lair(fuck that) or I get ovie speed then stop getting gas(this sounds better)
Was his cyber at the front of his base? If so, have a ling there to scout his front to see if you can see anything. Chronos used on the cyber are a pretty big giveaway for a gateway timing.
Also, scout the number of gasses taken. A lower number of gas taken indicates a higher chance for a gateway allin.
Sac'ing 2 OL's (1 at nat and 1 at main) is another option as well, and gives a higher chance of getting some telling information.
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On June 28 2013 11:33 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 11:00 wrekonize wrote:
Diamond level Z having trouble vs protoss
I just died to a 2 base 7 gate. I sacked an overlord but couldn't get deep into his base because of his initial stalker. Usually I can spot an all in because they don't hide it well or don't kill my OL in time, but this guy hid his gates. So how can I possibly scout an all in in time?? It hit at 8 min which is about when I get my lair if im playing standard. I guess I could get lair earlier so I can get a full scout but won't this put me behind if I'm playing against anything that isn't an all in? Do you guys get 100 gas quick for OV speed then stop getting gas?
What's the best way to get a full scout against a smart toss player, without falling behind.
Ok I watched my replay and my lair is just finished at 9 min which is when he hits with about 15 stalkers. So this is obviously far too late to scout. So I either get an even EARLIER lair(fuck that) or I get ovie speed then stop getting gas(this sounds better)
Was his cyber at the front of his base? If so, have a ling there to scout his front to see if you can see anything. Chronos used on the cyber are a pretty big giveaway for a gateway timing. Also, scout the number of gasses taken. A lower number of gas taken indicates a higher chance for a gateway allin. Sac'ing 2 OL's (1 at nat and 1 at main) is another option as well, and gives a higher chance of getting some telling information.
Thanks,
His cyber was hidden sort of at the back of his base against the map wall, so not much possibility of scouting it, also the gasses were on the inside so I'd have no choice but to sack the OL.
So I guess what it boils down to is that I have to do:
1. Scouting the 3 and 4 gas
2. Scouting the tech buildings
It's probably safe to say I can ovie scout the natural gasses without speed, but scouting tech buildings is unreliable(because active tosses will use the first stalker). It still sounds to me like I might still need to get ovie speed, because knowing an all in is coming is only half the battle right, because I need to know what tech it is exactly.
Any masters+ can tell me what you do when a toss plays a perfect defense like this, like when you just cant see the tech. Is losing 4 drones (1 for gas, 3 to mine it) for the early ovie speed the only route?
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Any masters+ can tell me what you do when a toss plays a perfect defense like this, like when you just cant see the tech. Is losing 4 drones (1 for gas, 3 to mine it) for the early ovie speed the only route?
Sorry, I'm only high diamond, but I think one korean pro does this to hard counter toss builds such as this, so if it is good for him I guess it is good for people like us. Personally I'm tired of P all-ins and hiding tech and it has been like 20 games that I started to get my first gas at 5:00 (instead of 6:00) and get ovie speed before Lair. This is only in the case of FFE though, I for me moment I feel like its delaying you eco too much if you stay on 2 bases for a while in case of gate expand, but maybe there is a way to do it as well.
What I noticed is having perfect intell wins me the 30% of the games I lose only because i'm surprised by something weird. remember we're playing ladder, and n different tosses have n different playstyles, and at our level they don't do perfect builds and have wrong timings anyways, so its difficult to recognize exactly what they are going for.
I do not think this quick speed messes too much with our eco, because :
1) until GM opponent are not good enough to do perfect timed all ins anyway,
2) perfect intel translates into being able to be greedy until the very last moment as we can think of the perfect counter to what we see exactly (plus you do not lose your two overlords, and in case of pheonix opening you dont lose any :p), so it evens out the early expense somewhat
Granted, with GM game sense and if you know your opponent, you should be able to scout almost everything just with you 2 slow ovies and poking lings and whatever, but over speed is here, at hand, a kind gift of David Kim for HotS zergies, so why don't use it? I will.
If some master+ would leave some feedback about what I said I would be very glad to hear.
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On June 25 2013 08:54 PSosa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 08:32 Steel wrote:
Hi! I have approximatly 0% win rate with the Soulkey roach attack described in the OP. I do everything as described by the build in time or even often faster. Terrans play very greedy 3CC with harass that does nothing. I push with a ton of roaches, 1/1 melee, and a bunch of speed banes. I usually kill all the army, and the workers at the natural and third. The terran seem to narrowly hold with reinforcements and pulling scvs in the main. I find that I am very far behind in this case and the terran just makes a few rounds of units (around 100 supply) and a-moves maurauder hellbat into my ~170 supply roach bane and easily wins the fight. What can I do to have more success? Is there a better way to play the matchup? I feel like regardless of what I do I'm far behind if terran ever has 3CC. I feel hopeless in this matchup, as in macro games I usually hover around 200apm and defend early harass very well, to then get obliterated by 100-150 apm terrans on 3 bases.
Usually I play macro, quick 3 base into double upgrades into mutas. Doesn't work very well though, again I get destroyed if T gets 3base! So I tried to all in but no cigar. Hi, try the Triple Barrel of TangSC, i have like 90% of WR with this build
Kinda curious as to what league you are...tried this all week: every game terran scouts my gas and makes marines instead of repears...~4 marines and a bunker is more than enough to push back the 14 lings and I get a few scv kills and lose my lings or do nothing and keep my lings alive. The factory comes out faster and hellions put a ton of pressure, sometimes followed up by banshee or drops so I can't excessively greedy like Tang shows in his tutorial. The lack of third base makes him scan me once or twice and I can't hide the roach bane follow up. He then easily defends with bunkers, mines, maurauders, tanks, whatever, just units and buildings. Once or twice I managed to get 4 bases, get key engagement with ultras and win but usually if I try to transition out of the roach attack I get medivac dropped until the terran is maxed and my army is pathetic.
I don't recommend this build. That being said I do like Snute's build posted a while back, though you only seem to come out even from making roaches if you perfectly defend the repears, the hellions the hellbat drops. If he goes reaper hellion and follows it up pure bio I just don't have the midgame production to defend double drop+frontal attack. If I go mutas I don't have enough of anything.
This sucks.
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On June 28 2013 12:30 wrekonize wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 11:33 Defenestrator wrote:On June 28 2013 11:00 wrekonize wrote:
Diamond level Z having trouble vs protoss
I just died to a 2 base 7 gate. I sacked an overlord but couldn't get deep into his base because of his initial stalker. Usually I can spot an all in because they don't hide it well or don't kill my OL in time, but this guy hid his gates. So how can I possibly scout an all in in time?? It hit at 8 min which is about when I get my lair if im playing standard. I guess I could get lair earlier so I can get a full scout but won't this put me behind if I'm playing against anything that isn't an all in? Do you guys get 100 gas quick for OV speed then stop getting gas?
What's the best way to get a full scout against a smart toss player, without falling behind.
Ok I watched my replay and my lair is just finished at 9 min which is when he hits with about 15 stalkers. So this is obviously far too late to scout. So I either get an even EARLIER lair(fuck that) or I get ovie speed then stop getting gas(this sounds better)
Was his cyber at the front of his base? If so, have a ling there to scout his front to see if you can see anything. Chronos used on the cyber are a pretty big giveaway for a gateway timing. Also, scout the number of gasses taken. A lower number of gas taken indicates a higher chance for a gateway allin. Sac'ing 2 OL's (1 at nat and 1 at main) is another option as well, and gives a higher chance of getting some telling information. Thanks, His cyber was hidden sort of at the back of his base against the map wall, so not much possibility of scouting it, also the gasses were on the inside so I'd have no choice but to sack the OL. So I guess what it boils down to is that I have to do: 1. Scouting the 3 and 4 gas 2. Scouting the tech buildings It's probably safe to say I can ovie scout the natural gasses without speed, but scouting tech buildings is unreliable(because active tosses will use the first stalker). It still sounds to me like I might still need to get ovie speed, because knowing an all in is coming is only half the battle right, because I need to know what tech it is exactly. Any masters+ can tell me what you do when a toss plays a perfect defense like this, like when you just cant see the tech. Is losing 4 drones (1 for gas, 3 to mine it) for the early ovie speed the only route?
send your 2nd overlord to his main, first overlord at his nat gases.
at ~6-7 min just suicide the one in his main and scout around his nat with your nat overlord. don't lose that one though! suicide 1-2 lings in his front, sometimes they build something you can see with them in his nat. scout if his forge is spinning, if he boosts his forge and/or core.
any more committing to scouting will be too costly so in a lot of cases you will just see something you can't hold cause you spent too much on scouting, or you will see standard play and end up behind compared to where you could be if you didn't scout. if you really cant see anything it's generally better to just hope he doesn't do something weird and make more drones because the weird shit is more rare than standard so in theory you should win more games that way.
but always make spores if you don't know what he's doing because phoenixes or dts do way too much damage if you aren't prepared.
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On June 28 2013 02:44 JohnJohnson wrote:
Having trouble with Swarm Host Corruptor Viper style, in zvp vs mass collosus/immortal/archon/stalker High Temp- The high temp is giving me a ton of trouble, as they just storm all the locusts + collosus beams, and feedback on the vipers if you get too close.
Should I be using abducts on temps instead of collosi? Or should i be using something else in that comp vs this specific toss ball?
I also find that this style is tough for me on maps like Akilon- They will assault the rock 4th expo, so i set up ;my army there, then they can easily run back around and start hitting up at like the 3 O clock expo in late game. I just have a hard time matching mobility with SH rooting/uprooting, and spine defense doesn't seem to phase a 200 psi toss ball.
the key against this is never attack and have 5k spines. if he kills a base just let it happen and pull away your drones. if its just zealots send roach hydra (you should keep a small squad of these all game for having SOME mobility, deny undefended base attempts, defend zealot warpins) to clean up his zealots. just stay cost efficient and keep your bank. don't play the mobility game as you can't win there. make tons of static defense and take new bases towards him, get your defense closer and closer to him and try to suffocate him.
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On June 28 2013 10:57 alcaras wrote:
Composition vs. BlinkStalker/DT/Templar/Archon?
Roach hydra swarmhosts.
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On June 29 2013 02:37 Steel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 08:54 PSosa wrote:On June 25 2013 08:32 Steel wrote:
Hi! I have approximatly 0% win rate with the Soulkey roach attack described in the OP. I do everything as described by the build in time or even often faster. Terrans play very greedy 3CC with harass that does nothing. I push with a ton of roaches, 1/1 melee, and a bunch of speed banes. I usually kill all the army, and the workers at the natural and third. The terran seem to narrowly hold with reinforcements and pulling scvs in the main. I find that I am very far behind in this case and the terran just makes a few rounds of units (around 100 supply) and a-moves maurauder hellbat into my ~170 supply roach bane and easily wins the fight. What can I do to have more success? Is there a better way to play the matchup? I feel like regardless of what I do I'm far behind if terran ever has 3CC. I feel hopeless in this matchup, as in macro games I usually hover around 200apm and defend early harass very well, to then get obliterated by 100-150 apm terrans on 3 bases.
Usually I play macro, quick 3 base into double upgrades into mutas. Doesn't work very well though, again I get destroyed if T gets 3base! So I tried to all in but no cigar. Hi, try the Triple Barrel of TangSC, i have like 90% of WR with this build Kinda curious as to what league you are...tried this all week: every game terran scouts my gas and makes marines instead of repears...~4 marines and a bunker is more than enough to push back the 14 lings and I get a few scv kills and lose my lings or do nothing and keep my lings alive. The factory comes out faster and hellions put a ton of pressure, sometimes followed up by banshee or drops so I can't excessively greedy like Tang shows in his tutorial. The lack of third base makes him scan me once or twice and I can't hide the roach bane follow up. He then easily defends with bunkers, mines, maurauders, tanks, whatever, just units and buildings. Once or twice I managed to get 4 bases, get key engagement with ultras and win but usually if I try to transition out of the roach attack I get medivac dropped until the terran is maxed and my army is pathetic. I don't recommend this build. That being said I do like Snute's build posted a while back, though you only seem to come out even from making roaches if you perfectly defend the repears, the hellions the hellbat drops. If he goes reaper hellion and follows it up pure bio I just don't have the midgame production to defend double drop+frontal attack. If I go mutas I don't have enough of anything. This sucks.
Tbh (high master zerg) I don't really like this 'triple bust' thing. I prefer just going for speedroach speedbane 1/1 timing - I feel like making 14 lings early on should never work and is a waste of your eco.
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I have a question. Why don't zerg players abuse bane drop in late game?
I tested out a couple of times and it do a very good job of destroying enemy income and force them to attack.
Edit: as long as you don't use do something to force them to build defensive stuff at the mineral lines. However, good micro can still make it work.
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On June 29 2013 07:33 iLevitate wrote:
I have a question. Why don't zerg players abuse bane drop in late game?
I tested out a couple of times and it do a very good job of destroying enemy income and force them to attack.
Edit: as long as you don't use do something to force them to build defensive stuff at the mineral lines. However, good micro can still make it work.
not worth the cost to kill 2-3 probes cause he can pull away fast
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On June 29 2013 07:33 iLevitate wrote:
I have a question. Why don't zerg players abuse bane drop in late game?
I tested out a couple of times and it do a very good job of destroying enemy income and force them to attack.
Edit: as long as you don't use do something to force them to build defensive stuff at the mineral lines. However, good micro can still make it work.
Yeah, I've been wanting to do this as well. I think mostly it's about the planning and apm - because it can be really good for a really small amount of min/gas.
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On June 29 2013 07:38 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 07:33 iLevitate wrote:
I have a question. Why don't zerg players abuse bane drop in late game?
I tested out a couple of times and it do a very good job of destroying enemy income and force them to attack.
Edit: as long as you don't use do something to force them to build defensive stuff at the mineral lines. However, good micro can still make it work.
Yeah, I've been wanting to do this as well. I think mostly it's about the planning and apm - because it can be really good for a really small amount of min/gas.
no man, you need 200/200 for drop, 100/100 for overlord speed, and every single bling is 50/25. it's really fucking expensive.
and chances are you aren't going to kill much against decent opponents cause they will watch minimap. overlords with speed are still pretty slow compared to the other races drop tools and you have to get them ontop of workers without him noticing to do any damage.
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On June 29 2013 08:00 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 07:38 Henk wrote:On June 29 2013 07:33 iLevitate wrote:
I have a question. Why don't zerg players abuse bane drop in late game?
I tested out a couple of times and it do a very good job of destroying enemy income and force them to attack.
Edit: as long as you don't use do something to force them to build defensive stuff at the mineral lines. However, good micro can still make it work.
Yeah, I've been wanting to do this as well. I think mostly it's about the planning and apm - because it can be really good for a really small amount of min/gas. no man, you need 200/200 for drop, 100/100 for overlord speed, and every single bling is 50/25. it's really fucking expensive. and chances are you aren't going to kill much against decent opponents cause they will watch minimap. overlords with speed are still pretty slow compared to the other races drop tools and you have to get them ontop of workers without him noticing to do any damage.
300/300 isnt that much (considering you've already got overlord speed anyway, or at least you should). In the lategame when you're banking up cash you could totally consider getting it. I still think the main reason why people aren't getting it is the amount of work you need to put into making banelings, loading then up and dropping them.
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On June 29 2013 09:12 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 08:00 willstertben wrote:On June 29 2013 07:38 Henk wrote:On June 29 2013 07:33 iLevitate wrote:
I have a question. Why don't zerg players abuse bane drop in late game?
I tested out a couple of times and it do a very good job of destroying enemy income and force them to attack.
Edit: as long as you don't use do something to force them to build defensive stuff at the mineral lines. However, good micro can still make it work.
Yeah, I've been wanting to do this as well. I think mostly it's about the planning and apm - because it can be really good for a really small amount of min/gas. no man, you need 200/200 for drop, 100/100 for overlord speed, and every single bling is 50/25. it's really fucking expensive. and chances are you aren't going to kill much against decent opponents cause they will watch minimap. overlords with speed are still pretty slow compared to the other races drop tools and you have to get them ontop of workers without him noticing to do any damage. 300/300 isnt that much (considering you've already got overlord speed anyway, or at least you should). In the lategame when you're banking up cash you could totally consider getting it. I still think the main reason why people aren't getting it is the amount of work you need to put into making banelings, loading then up and dropping them.
this.
it can be effective. banes one shot drones and probes in the late game. as usual terran op with scvs needing two hits(jk with op).
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On June 29 2013 07:37 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 07:33 iLevitate wrote:
I have a question. Why don't zerg players abuse bane drop in late game?
I tested out a couple of times and it do a very good job of destroying enemy income and force them to attack.
Edit: as long as you don't use do something to force them to build defensive stuff at the mineral lines. However, good micro can still make it work.
not worth the cost to kill 2-3 probes cause he can pull away fast
Like they gonna think a bane drop coming in lategame just because of a speedy ovie.
Plus in lategame we have the resource to do these kinda thing.
Image 4 ovies hitting 4 bases at the same time. 60 workers kill in a blink of an eye.
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On June 29 2013 11:20 iLevitate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 07:37 willstertben wrote:On June 29 2013 07:33 iLevitate wrote:
I have a question. Why don't zerg players abuse bane drop in late game?
I tested out a couple of times and it do a very good job of destroying enemy income and force them to attack.
Edit: as long as you don't use do something to force them to build defensive stuff at the mineral lines. However, good micro can still make it work.
not worth the cost to kill 2-3 probes cause he can pull away fast Like they gonna think a bane drop coming in lategame just because of a speedy ovie. Plus in lategame we have the resource to do these kinda thing. Image 4 ovies hitting 4 bases at the same time. 60 workers kill in a blink of an eye.
It's one of the frontiers of zerg play not yet heavily explored.
At the very least it will force some base defense. And you can use empty ovies to fake out the enemy.
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On June 29 2013 15:05 hearters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 11:20 iLevitate wrote:On June 29 2013 07:37 willstertben wrote:On June 29 2013 07:33 iLevitate wrote:
I have a question. Why don't zerg players abuse bane drop in late game?
I tested out a couple of times and it do a very good job of destroying enemy income and force them to attack.
Edit: as long as you don't use do something to force them to build defensive stuff at the mineral lines. However, good micro can still make it work.
not worth the cost to kill 2-3 probes cause he can pull away fast Like they gonna think a bane drop coming in lategame just because of a speedy ovie. Plus in lategame we have the resource to do these kinda thing. Image 4 ovies hitting 4 bases at the same time. 60 workers kill in a blink of an eye. It's one of the frontiers of zerg play not yet heavily explored. At the very least it will force some base defense. And you can use empty ovies to fake out the enemy.
Eh this has actually been done by zergs and good tosses reacted well which is why this isn't super popular.
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hello guys plat zerg i have a question to ask about zvz.i wonder the only way to counter enemy roaches mass when u play lings mutas is to make your own roaches ?or there is another way to face it?
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On June 29 2013 19:06 potsos wrote:
hello guys plat zerg i have a question to ask about zvz.i wonder the only way to counter enemy roaches mass when u play lings mutas is to make your own roaches ?or there is another way to face it?
Mutas obviously are fine vs roaches as they can't get hit back. If your opponent is just massing roaches vs your muta/ling, I'd suggest cutting back on lings a bit and make spines instead to defend your bases. Mutas give you complete map control and the only time mass roach will trouble you is when they try to run past your mutas and just kill your shit because mutas kill roaches kinda slowly, and the spines will help against this a lot as they are really good vs roaches. With mutas you should be expanding a lot and have left over minerals to cover your bases in spines vs pure roach. Getting your own roaches is either good or bad. If you're economically even with your opponent, then roaches are pointless because your opponent will always have more, so in this case just keep making mutas/spines/bases/higher tech such as swarm hosts. However playing mutas should put you economically ahead because you can expand behind all the map control you have and deny the expansions of your opponent, so for example you might have 5 base vs your opponents 3, in which case roaches would be a good choice because you can outmass them, however I'd still suggest just getting a higher tech counter to roaches, like roach/hydra/infestor or ultras.
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EPT
