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On June 29 2013 19:21 LardMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 19:06 potsos wrote:
hello guys plat zerg i have a question to ask about zvz.i wonder the only way to counter enemy roaches mass when u play lings mutas is to make your own roaches ?or there is another way to face it? Mutas obviously are fine vs roaches as they can't get hit back. If your opponent is just massing roaches vs your muta/ling, I'd suggest cutting back on lings a bit and make spines instead to defend your bases. Mutas give you complete map control and the only time mass roach will trouble you is when they try to run past your mutas and just kill your shit because mutas kill roaches kinda slowly, and the spines will help against this a lot as they are really good vs roaches. With mutas you should be expanding a lot and have left over minerals to cover your bases in spines vs pure roach. Getting your own roaches is either good or bad. If you're economically even with your opponent, then roaches are pointless because your opponent will always have more, so in this case just keep making mutas/spines/bases/higher tech such as swarm hosts. However playing mutas should put you economically ahead because you can expand behind all the map control you have and deny the expansions of your opponent, so for example you might have 5 base vs your opponents 3, in which case roaches would be a good choice because you can outmass them, however I'd still suggest just getting a higher tech counter to roaches, like roach/hydra/infestor or ultras.
Thank u for the fast answer it was really helpfull but what happend to me was that i denied his third base with my lings and he went to roach hydra , he pushed to get his third i stopped the bush with my banes but he made only roaches in the next push and i couldnot handle it i lost alot of minerals in links and the mutas was a bit crushed i had a 4th base but i couldnot saturate due to the fact i had saturated 3 ,and had like 7 spines in my third, he made his push i couldnot stop the roached and i lost what should have i done?
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On June 29 2013 20:09 potsos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 19:21 LardMaster wrote:On June 29 2013 19:06 potsos wrote:
hello guys plat zerg i have a question to ask about zvz.i wonder the only way to counter enemy roaches mass when u play lings mutas is to make your own roaches ?or there is another way to face it? Mutas obviously are fine vs roaches as they can't get hit back. If your opponent is just massing roaches vs your muta/ling, I'd suggest cutting back on lings a bit and make spines instead to defend your bases. Mutas give you complete map control and the only time mass roach will trouble you is when they try to run past your mutas and just kill your shit because mutas kill roaches kinda slowly, and the spines will help against this a lot as they are really good vs roaches. With mutas you should be expanding a lot and have left over minerals to cover your bases in spines vs pure roach. Getting your own roaches is either good or bad. If you're economically even with your opponent, then roaches are pointless because your opponent will always have more, so in this case just keep making mutas/spines/bases/higher tech such as swarm hosts. However playing mutas should put you economically ahead because you can expand behind all the map control you have and deny the expansions of your opponent, so for example you might have 5 base vs your opponents 3, in which case roaches would be a good choice because you can outmass them, however I'd still suggest just getting a higher tech counter to roaches, like roach/hydra/infestor or ultras. Thank u for the fast answer it was really helpfull but what happend to me was that i denied his third base with my lings and he went to roach hydra , he pushed to get his third i stopped the bush with my banes but he made only roaches in the next push and i couldnot handle it i lost alot of minerals in links and the mutas was a bit crushed i had a 4th base but i couldnot saturate due to the fact i had saturated 3 ,and had like 7 spines in my third, he made his push i couldnot stop the roached and i lost what should have i done?
Well you say your killed his third and managed to hold your own third. This is a good time to transitition into roaches, because you have a better economy, and he cannot kill you at this time because you just killed his roach/hydra push.
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On June 29 2013 19:06 potsos wrote:
hello guys plat zerg i have a question to ask about zvz.i wonder the only way to counter enemy roaches mass when u play lings mutas is to make your own roaches ?or there is another way to face it?
If you went mutalisks and he opens roaches the best way to go about it is probably to get your own roaches, yes. You are usually not capable to hold roach/hydra/infestor pushes just of mutalisk/zergling/baneling.
On a lot of maps you can also transition straight into swarmhost+static from mutalisks against roaches (e.g. Akilon or Newkirk)
Whatever you choose, mutas usually buy you enough time to do it without falling behind or even to get ahead, as long as you use your mapcontrol right to force static D and antiair tech.
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The roller coaster that is my ladder experience.
I was playing toss when WoL came out, decided to switch since i wasnt enjoying toss.To preface i just wanna say that my current W/L record is 35% zvz -65% Zvt -60% ZvP(to note that over 60-70% of my games are ZVZ i hardly play T or P
I have tried of the few builds i have found Teamlquid, but i just dont know if i am just doing them incorrectly or they just arent doable any more
ZvZ builds:
Gasless opening(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wpRM0wmJz0)
Hatch/gas/pool
I just am wondering since some of these threads are a few months old, even a year old. Are these builds still good to use?
Whats a safe ZVZ opening? On 2 player maps? 4player maps?
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On June 29 2013 21:18 Footymd wrote:The roller coaster that is my ladder experience. I was playing toss when WoL came out, decided to switch since i wasnt enjoying toss.To preface i just wanna say that my current W/L record is 35% zvz -65% Zvt -60% ZvP(to note that over 60-70% of my games are ZVZ i hardly play T or P I have tried of the few builds i have found Teamlquid, but i just dont know if i am just doing them incorrectly or they just arent doable any more ZvZ builds: Gasless opening(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wpRM0wmJz0) Hatch/gas/pool I just am wondering since some of these threads are a few months old, even a year old. Are these builds still good to use? Whats a safe ZVZ opening? On 2 player maps? 4player maps?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758
This will help you a lot.
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On June 29 2013 21:34 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 21:18 Footymd wrote:The roller coaster that is my ladder experience. I was playing toss when WoL came out, decided to switch since i wasnt enjoying toss.To preface i just wanna say that my current W/L record is 35% zvz -65% Zvt -60% ZvP(to note that over 60-70% of my games are ZVZ i hardly play T or P I have tried of the few builds i have found Teamlquid, but i just dont know if i am just doing them incorrectly or they just arent doable any more ZvZ builds: Gasless opening(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wpRM0wmJz0) Hatch/gas/pool I just am wondering since some of these threads are a few months old, even a year old. Are these builds still good to use? Whats a safe ZVZ opening? On 2 player maps? 4player maps? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402758This will help you a lot.
Wow thanks, i dont know who i missed that thread!
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Hey guys,
I play WOL at the moment and was wondering what the standard gas progression of zvp is for zerg. if say your protoss opponent went for a gateway cybercore build, would you than get met boost with your first 100 gas and than take guys off of gas until met boost is done and than put them back and get your lair? or is it similar to zvt gas progression, which is met boost, 1 1 , lair. etc please help 
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Reminder that Hyuns (safe) quick hive build ZvP is at the bottom of page 73
The build he's used every game against toss this weekend.
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Lots of quick questions, really appreciate the help from anyone who can answer them
TvZ
Is the transition from 1/1 roach bust and 2/2 roach bust into hydras or into festors? Can or should I be mixing in some banelings when playing roach hydra?
And what is my late game transition? Should I be teching melee? Or into broods? Can I, or is it worth it to get like 3-5 extra queens when playing roach hydra just to spread creep really hard?
ZvZ
In ZvZ I remember hearing that after about 160 supply in roach you want to mix in hydras but the real question I have is do I go for hydras or infestors first? If I play roach festor vs roach hydra, I want to aim to close the gap between the 2 armies whereas with roach hydra I want to split and spread ? And where do SH fit into this?
What's the ZvZ meta now? Ling bane into roach festor hydra into swarm hosts?
ZvP
Banelings vs gateway heavy styles - Are they any good, assuming I don't get forcefielded hard? I like playing a heavy ling style and using burrow but I do get some roaches vs gateway pressure regardless.
If I open mutas and my opponent techs to ranged phoenix do I decide based on his ground tech whether or not to go muta/corruptor or into a more ling hydra based style? Like if I see colossi tech I'd stay on muta/corruptor but if I see double forge or lots of gateway tech without archons I should stay on muta/corruptor for a while longer?
ZvX
Also in general when building roaches on 2 bases I only want like 3 gas right? And on 3 base I want 4 until I aim to tech?
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On July 01 2013 01:41 obis wrote:Hey guys, I play WOL at the moment and was wondering what the standard gas progression of zvp is for zerg. if say your protoss opponent went for a gateway cybercore build, would you than get met boost with your first 100 gas and than take guys off of gas until met boost is done and than put them back and get your lair? or is it similar to zvt gas progression, which is met boost, 1 1 , lair. etc please help
If protoss does a gate opening, you need to be able to defend a possible 4gate. So get gas asap, get lingspeed, take guys off gas. Then take 3rd if protoss takes his nat, and get double gas going at approx 44 supply.
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On July 01 2013 14:10 S7EFEN wrote:Lots of quick questions, really appreciate the help from anyone who can answer them TvZ Is the transition from 1/1 roach bust and 2/2 roach bust into hydras or into festors? Can or should I be mixing in some banelings when playing roach hydra? And what is my late game transition? Should I be teching melee? Or into broods? Can I, or is it worth it to get like 3-5 extra queens when playing roach hydra just to spread creep really hard? ZvZ In ZvZ I remember hearing that after about 160 supply in roach you want to mix in hydras but the real question I have is do I go for hydras or infestors first? If I play roach festor vs roach hydra, I want to aim to close the gap between the 2 armies whereas with roach hydra I want to split and spread ? And where do SH fit into this? What's the ZvZ meta now? Ling bane into roach festor hydra into swarm hosts? ZvP Banelings vs gateway heavy styles - Are they any good, assuming I don't get forcefielded hard? I like playing a heavy ling style and using burrow but I do get some roaches vs gateway pressure regardless. If I open mutas and my opponent techs to ranged phoenix do I decide based on his ground tech whether or not to go muta/corruptor or into a more ling hydra based style? Like if I see colossi tech I'd stay on muta/corruptor but if I see double forge or lots of gateway tech without archons I should stay on muta/corruptor for a while longer? ZvX Also in general when building roaches on 2 bases I only want like 3 gas right? And on 3 base I want 4 until I aim to tech?
ZvT
both transition are viable (if you want to go for a bust, maybe hydras are better). You shouldn't mix banes (your gas should go into roach/hydra/upgrades).
Late game the most common transition if you went roach infestor is broodlords. I think swarmhosts would be better if you're into roach hydra. You won't need that many queens (1-2 creepspread queens is enough).
ZvZ
both are viable (I tend to favour hydras since FG isn't as strong as it used to be). While engaging you always want to have te better concave. Swarmhosts are IMO the best transition from roach hydra into lategame, but they are somwhat immobile, so static defense will help you. When transitioning into swarmhosts you'll want as many hydras as possible and few roaches. When fighting you go in after locusts spawn and let them tank, and retreat when they die.
the meta is still evolving. But the most common midgame play is mass roaches.
ZvP
banelings are always good if you can get good detonations, but it's hard to do vs protoss. I'd say playing ling bane is a bit of a gamble because if P has good FFs you're screwed.
I'd say this question depends on the number of stargates he has. I think two or more stargates means you have to transition out of mutas.
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hi guys plat zerg here have huge problem with zvp , i try to play sh with some hydras into ultralisk but i never get to that point.do u think should i change my army combosition and try roach hydra into vipers or should i go mutas? what is the common way to beat a toss , what army combosition do u suggest to make and how can i react to the allins as example immortal sentry ?i use blade's guide for my build in zvp.
thanks u for your time
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What should you do when you scout a Protoss all-ining?
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Vs a passive protoss who opens stargate can i go for triple upgrades off of 3 base saturation? Safety roach warrent but play ling/hydra vs gateway + immortal and gateway + VR compositions and keep trading with ling roach hydra with an eventual muta switch?
I really don't like having to commit to either roach / hydra or lings, I like having lings with hydras or roaches and generally I have the gas to do this, especially when not building muta/bane/sh/festor in the midgame.
From what I see at the pro level its better to drop the gas into fast vipers but I'm not a huge fan of viper play and rather focus on constantly trading.
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Question on Bio Mine Medivacs and gas decisions - typically I go Ling/Bane/Muta, full saturation on 3 bases, macro hatch, melee/cara ups. Lots of lings, banes, and 12ish mutas.
Sometime this matchup feels like a coin flip, Terran getting some lucky mine shots. Therefore I have been thinking that I should get some Corrupters instead of Mutas. Reasoning, gas-wise they cost the same & still kill Medivacs, but they can tank a mine shot 200hp and tank many Marine shots as +2 carapace gives 33% less damage c.f. muta (assuming equal ups).
Corruptors have range of 6 vs Muta range of 3 & do about the same damage (without Corrupt). With speed boost, Medivacs are faster than Mutas anyway and can run back to a defensive position (over mines/marines). So I am thinking that in case of bio/mine/medivac, corruptors are a better choice for controlling medivac count. Maybe 2 x Corruptors per Medivac?
I am thinking that the negative aspects are responding to drops and lack of harassment options - but I am finding that harassing into a potential minefield isn’t a great outcome and when the medivac count gets too high then drops and bio pushes get super strong.
The other thoughts are diverting this gas into more even banelings, or scaling back gas and getting an extra base (mass spines/spores) or even more minerals for mass lings. But I am wary that more bases is more headaches for multi drops even with fast lings, and spores/spines can be pretty weak vs drops at the edge.
Anyway, thoughts on corruptors in bio mine medivac?
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On July 02 2013 12:12 Crugio wrote:
Question on Bio Mine Medivacs and gas decisions - typically I go Ling/Bane/Muta, full saturation on 3 bases, macro hatch, melee/cara ups. Lots of lings, banes, and 12ish mutas.
Sometime this matchup feels like a coin flip, Terran getting some lucky mine shots. Therefore I have been thinking that I should get some Corrupters instead of Mutas. Reasoning, gas-wise they cost the same & still kill Medivacs, but they can tank a mine shot 200hp and tank many Marine shots as +2 carapace gives 33% less damage c.f. muta (assuming equal ups).
Corruptors have range of 6 vs Muta range of 3 & do about the same damage (without Corrupt). With speed boost, Medivacs are faster than Mutas anyway and can run back to a defensive position (over mines/marines). So I am thinking that in case of bio/mine/medivac, corruptors are a better choice for controlling medivac count. Maybe 2 x Corruptors per Medivac?
I am thinking that the negative aspects are responding to drops and lack of harassment options - but I am finding that harassing into a potential minefield isn’t a great outcome and when the medivac count gets too high then drops and bio pushes get super strong.
The other thoughts are diverting this gas into more even banelings, or scaling back gas and getting an extra base (mass spines/spores) or even more minerals for mass lings. But I am wary that more bases is more headaches for multi drops even with fast lings, and spores/spines can be pretty weak vs drops at the edge.
Anyway, thoughts on corruptors in bio mine medivac?
Maybe, though you really have to realize that Corrupters are shitty units for their cost and that they can't attack ground. One of the reasons you want to have Mutar is that they're pretty good at cleaning up drops. Corrupters won't be able to do that if the units have landed. Also Mutar can clear out mines, Corrupters can't.
Basically, Mutar are better than Corrupters. That said, perhaps you can mix in Corrupters rather than going pure Corrupter. I don't know, you'll have to try this in game yourself. Zerg lair units are mostly trash. ^^
Edit; come to think of it, if you use corrupters only vs medivacs and commit to mostly a ground army, it might not be a bad idea
try it otu!
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On July 02 2013 11:02 MassFungal wrote:
What should you do when you scout a Protoss all-ining?
Welcome to TL !
You should add more information to this post, since the answer is very dependent on the kind of allin protoss is executing.
hi guys plat zerg here have huge problem with zvp , i try to play sh with some hydras into ultralisk but i never get to that point.do u think should i change my army combosition and try roach hydra into vipers or should i go mutas? what is the common way to beat a toss , what army combosition do u suggest to make and how can i react to the allins as example immortal sentry ?i use blade's guide for my build in zvp.
thanks u for your time
Why can't you reach the SH Hydra Ultra composition ? All ins ? Or are you too greedy and protoss kills you with pressure ? Or are you just unable to reach the army comp cause your eco is too low ?
You should probably add vipers in there, as they are extremely efficient vs protoss. Be careful as they require quite a large amount of control (at least 3 control groups for SH hydra ultra viper).
At plat level, you can still play with roach hydra viper and win. To be fair, you can still win with it at master level.
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+ Show Spoiler +Hey!
i need some help to find the right opening in tvt to follow with mech. i tried to copy a build used by lucifron with Hellbat drops but i always die to early reaper harras on ladder because i lack marines :S.
( i'm high diamond if it matters at all )
Sorry xD clicked on the wrong thread :D can be deleted ^^
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On July 02 2013 20:24 loginn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 11:02 MassFungal wrote:
What should you do when you scout a Protoss all-ining? Welcome to TL ! You should add more information to this post, since the answer is very dependent on the kind of allin protoss is executing. Show nested quote +hi guys plat zerg here have huge problem with zvp , i try to play sh with some hydras into ultralisk but i never get to that point.do u think should i change my army combosition and try roach hydra into vipers or should i go mutas? what is the common way to beat a toss , what army combosition do u suggest to make and how can i react to the allins as example immortal sentry ?i use blade's guide for my build in zvp.
thanks u for your time Why can't you reach the SH Hydra Ultra composition ? All ins ? Or are you too greedy and protoss kills you with pressure ? Or are you just unable to reach the army comp cause your eco is too low ? You should probably add vipers in there, as they are extremely efficient vs protoss. Be careful as they require quite a large amount of control (at least 3 control groups for SH hydra ultra viper). At plat level, you can still play with roach hydra viper and win. To be fair, you can still win with it at master level.
thanks for ur answer they usually all in me and i usually get unguarded and lose . i want to know if playing raoch hydra or even lings muta is easier . what do u usually play against toss i would like to know combosition that would provide safety from an all in
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On July 02 2013 22:09 potsos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 20:24 loginn wrote:On July 02 2013 11:02 MassFungal wrote:
What should you do when you scout a Protoss all-ining? Welcome to TL ! You should add more information to this post, since the answer is very dependent on the kind of allin protoss is executing. hi guys plat zerg here have huge problem with zvp , i try to play sh with some hydras into ultralisk but i never get to that point.do u think should i change my army combosition and try roach hydra into vipers or should i go mutas? what is the common way to beat a toss , what army combosition do u suggest to make and how can i react to the allins as example immortal sentry ?i use blade's guide for my build in zvp.
thanks u for your time Why can't you reach the SH Hydra Ultra composition ? All ins ? Or are you too greedy and protoss kills you with pressure ? Or are you just unable to reach the army comp cause your eco is too low ? You should probably add vipers in there, as they are extremely efficient vs protoss. Be careful as they require quite a large amount of control (at least 3 control groups for SH hydra ultra viper). At plat level, you can still play with roach hydra viper and win. To be fair, you can still win with it at master level. thanks for ur answer they usually all in me and i usually get unguarded and lose . i want to know if playing raoch hydra or even lings muta is easier . what do u usually play against toss i would like to know combosition that would provide safety from an all in
There is no answer to that question, because you are not telling us important facts. Which all in is he doing? Is it a 4gate which hits really early, is a proxy 2 gate which hits even earlier with only zealots, or is it sentry immortal, is it 2 colossi all in, you need to be clear. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a unit composition which is safe to all ins. Zerg is a reactive race - you have to make the correct units depending on the all in he is performing.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5rg1EAp)
