|
United Kingdom10443 Posts
here's the thing right
protoss is stupid right so you got to accept that fact, luckily it's like people who aren't so good play it so they just do stupid stuff but they can get away with it because all their units are like 8000 times stronger than zerg.
so you just have to play with absolutely no respect for protoss players because, frankly, they don't deserve it. Go 3 hatch before pool. Drone like a beast get your shit set up and then you can just build anything you like at 8 minutes onwards and win the game.
sure you might lose to dumb stuff but you were probably going to lose to it anywya because it takes 8000 lings to kill 1 zealot and 4 immortals can kill a maxed roach army.
User was warned for this post
|
On February 03 2015 07:53 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2015 03:47 velvex wrote:On February 02 2015 03:15 Defenestrator wrote:On February 02 2015 02:23 velvex wrote:
What would you say is worse in ZvP: opening with gas versus FFE or opening gasless versus gateway expand? I myself would lean towards the former, but I also feel lost when having no speed versus a gateway player. The former by a mile, for some reason speed just doesn't seem necessary to me vs gateway-first anymore (maybe rush distances on maps). I haven't faced a 1-base 4gate in a very long time. Okay, I guess I simply have to make more lings against aggression so that having no speed doesn't matter as much. Thanks for answering! Although it can be frustrating feeling like you get the raw end of the build order list, neither situation is really bad. You can redeem both situations. Gas vs. FFE, go for fast +1 melee upgrade and crush his third/early push out, transition into muta/SH. Gasless vs gateway expand, all goods, drone like an animal and keep an eye on gasses, if you get away with it you are in a huge lead
Thanks. Do you know any examples of pro or high-level games for the +1 melee upgrade thing? I don't recall having seen this, so it would be nice to know some details.
|
I'm returning to the game (have been gone since 2012), and just got HotS. The builds on the Liquidpedia strategy portal seem to be a bit dated, so I'm wondering what the state of the matchup is in each of ZvP, ZvT and ZvZ. Naming the staple builds would help, but any links to other sources would be great as well. Thanks!
|
On February 03 2015 07:49 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2015 23:24 Shuffleblade wrote:On February 01 2015 11:45 Defenestrator wrote:On February 01 2015 10:11 Shuffleblade wrote:
What should I do at that point? I have the edge in every single way but archons are just OP man :'( Have you tried basetrading? Just spine up your main heavily and when he moves out kill all his buildings... this is typically what pros do with mutas. I have tried it and I guess it works decently but it feels like a waste to gamble away my huge lead. Like the last game this happened I had mined out his gold I had taken my fourth base on my side of the map (not counting his gold that I stole) and he had barely gotten a third base up. If I try to basetrade there's no way to spine all my bases, maybe only my main like you said and then he can kill off all my mining bases. If he somehow manages to get a nexus up somewhere then its possible that he has a stronger army then me in a headon engagement and the better economy which means I just threw away my huge lead. I suppose this is what I should do but it just feels a bit sketchy to throw away my enormous lead and gamble it on a basetrade just because he got a certain unit =/ Base trading is only a gamble if you are not intentional about it. I remember that Day[9] once did a daily which focused on intentionally base trading. I briefly tried finding it, to no avail, maybe someone with a better memory then me can. If you are going to go mutalisk then you have two options, start building a comp switch for when he gets anti-muta up, Or (my preference) aim for a base trade. Constantly backstab with units, focus on killing stargates etc, try to force their hand by committing to a base trade. The zerg generally always has the advantage in a base trade as you are already in his face with flying units. Spread bases everywhere and spine up your main like a BEAST so that if he ever goes for it it will take him 20 minutes to kill your forest. There are many different things you can do to make a base trade feel like less of a gamble, the biggest thing though is not going into a base trade because the protoss does it, but because you WANT to do a base trade. Personally I love the base trade style, I find it very exciting and fun to abuse a protoss until he has no option but to run at your millions of bases and spines.
This feels like very solid advice, I always go for a transition after my muta but maybe I should keep teching(as a backup plan) while aiming to abuse him into a basetrade. This feels like a move that I never even thought of intentionally making.
You really helped me, thanks for the advice!
|
On February 03 2015 09:29 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 07:53 ThePastor wrote:On February 02 2015 03:47 velvex wrote:On February 02 2015 03:15 Defenestrator wrote:On February 02 2015 02:23 velvex wrote:
What would you say is worse in ZvP: opening with gas versus FFE or opening gasless versus gateway expand? I myself would lean towards the former, but I also feel lost when having no speed versus a gateway player. The former by a mile, for some reason speed just doesn't seem necessary to me vs gateway-first anymore (maybe rush distances on maps). I haven't faced a 1-base 4gate in a very long time. Okay, I guess I simply have to make more lings against aggression so that having no speed doesn't matter as much. Thanks for answering! Although it can be frustrating feeling like you get the raw end of the build order list, neither situation is really bad. You can redeem both situations. Gas vs. FFE, go for fast +1 melee upgrade and crush his third/early push out, transition into muta/SH. Gasless vs gateway expand, all goods, drone like an animal and keep an eye on gasses, if you get away with it you are in a huge lead I've found that one really important thing to scout here is cyber before nexus. If he does go for cyber first, he's almost certainly doing either 4gate (sangate), 7gate, or immo/zeal allin. In this situation I throw down roach warren and gas at 5:15, skip ling speed, and pump units. Regardless that is a pretty low-eco opener for protoss so you can get away with fewer drones until you have confirmation on what he's doing.
well, both this (if you're really sure it's going to be a 4 gate) and fast gas work pretty well.
another way would be to reactively 3 hatch before pool and then you shouldn't really lose to a 4 gate
|
|
|
On February 03 2015 09:29 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 07:53 ThePastor wrote:On February 02 2015 03:47 velvex wrote:On February 02 2015 03:15 Defenestrator wrote:On February 02 2015 02:23 velvex wrote:
What would you say is worse in ZvP: opening with gas versus FFE or opening gasless versus gateway expand? I myself would lean towards the former, but I also feel lost when having no speed versus a gateway player. The former by a mile, for some reason speed just doesn't seem necessary to me vs gateway-first anymore (maybe rush distances on maps). I haven't faced a 1-base 4gate in a very long time. Okay, I guess I simply have to make more lings against aggression so that having no speed doesn't matter as much. Thanks for answering! Although it can be frustrating feeling like you get the raw end of the build order list, neither situation is really bad. You can redeem both situations. Gas vs. FFE, go for fast +1 melee upgrade and crush his third/early push out, transition into muta/SH. Gasless vs gateway expand, all goods, drone like an animal and keep an eye on gasses, if you get away with it you are in a huge lead I've found that one really important thing to scout here is cyber before nexus. If he does go for cyber first, he's almost certainly doing either 4gate (sangate), 7gate, or immo/zeal allin. In this situation I throw down roach warren and gas at 5:15, skip ling speed, and pump units. Regardless that is a pretty low-eco opener for protoss so you can get away with fewer drones until you have confirmation on what he's doing.
Not quite. Its all about the gas. If the protoss goes gate core expand and only has one gas by the timing your 2 scouting lings get inside (15pool), then it is 80% 4 gate, 19% 1 gas immortal mass zealot all in. The 1% is when you face Hitman lol.
If they go for gate core expand, and your scouting lings see two gas. You are free to drone hard and take a third. They don't have the min to attack you any time soon. (assuming they are not trying to trick you by only have 2 probes per gas.
|
United Kingdom10443 Posts
Started drone scouting in ZvP and it has improved my early game quite a lot.
I can safely go hatch first vs a gateway opener.
pool first vs a forge opening
and double expand before pool if I spot the nexus first.
I never used to do it but now I feel less coin flippy.
|
United Kingdom10443 Posts
How are other zergs spending their vetos
I have inferno, overgrowth and Secret Spring turned off.
|
Lol you basically confirmed what I just said =P The point is cyber before nexus lets you get warpgate faster, and defending 3gate pressure is still difficult if you're running around with slowlings. My point was that when I scout cyber before nexus, I get earlier gas (which is less economical) and an earlier roach warren to be prepared for pressure, like 3gate for example. Of course you should still sac OL to see what exactly the build is, scout gasses, etc. Obviously though cyber before nexus is less economical than earlier nexus, and allows you to tech and hit timings more quickly - therefore as a Z player it helps to be prepared with earlier gas and roach warren to be ready to defend.
|
|
|
On February 04 2015 01:21 Defenestrator wrote:Lol you basically confirmed what I just said =P The point is cyber before nexus lets you get warpgate faster, and defending 3gate pressure is still difficult if you're running around with slowlings. My point was that when I scout cyber before nexus, I get earlier gas (which is less economical) and an earlier roach warren to be prepared for pressure, like 3gate for example. Of course you should still sac OL to see what exactly the build is, scout gasses, etc. Obviously though cyber before nexus is less economical than earlier nexus, and allows you to tech and hit timings more quickly - therefore as a Z player it helps to be prepared with earlier gas and roach warren to be ready to defend.
While maybe at a lower level of play, your advice may ring true as the those players often attempt to do the "easier" builds to execute which happen to be early timed all ins. However, to be fair, your advice overall is pretty bad. You are relying way too much on assumptions rather than doing "the work" in scouting. For example your earlier advice "If he does go for cyber first, he's almost certainly doing either 4gate (sangate), 7gate, or immo/zeal allin. In this situation I throw down roach warren and gas at 5:15, skip ling speed, and pump units.
Regardless that is a pretty low-eco opener for protoss so you can get away with fewer drones until you have confirmation on what he's doing."
If you throw down a 5:15 roach warren vs a person going 7 gate or immortal all in (at a high level) you will die because you are "cutting" way too early and your economy won't be large enough to survive those attacks. While sure this response is suitable vs sangate, and may work for you vs all builds, it is way too generalized to be taken as "good advice"
It should be noted that a gate/core/nexus opener is in fact just a "comprehensive" opener, not a "low eco" one. While it has become common to do nexus/gate openers, most of these are with no probe scout and will fair terribly vs some openers. So instead try to get in the line of thinking that, any non forge expansion that gets a nexus before a cybernetics core, without probe scouting, is in fact "greedy" and not "standard".
|
On February 04 2015 02:02 Moosegills wrote:
If you throw down a 5:15 roach warren vs a person going 7 gate or immortal all in (at a high level) you will die because you are "cutting" way too early and your economy won't be large enough to survive those attacks. While sure this response is suitable vs sangate, and may work for you vs all builds, it is way too generalized to be taken as "good advice"
What is your advice to hold a 7gate then? (honest question, not trying to be flippant) When I said "pump units" that's a little premature, I agree, when I said "less drones" you get out less drones due to mining gas early on vs a standard gasless opener. However I believe the earlier roach warren is warranted vs cyber-first. How else would you open vs this? 5:15 is earlier than any reliable scouting occurs on the zerg side, as far as I know, beyond the first 2 lings/ finding nexus timings. Standard OL sac is at 6:30 and that's far too late of a scout to react vs a concerted cyber-before-nexus pressure.
On February 04 2015 01:30 SatedSC2 wrote:
If you still don't have Metabolic Boost at ~7:00 (the timing the light pressure I am talking about hits at) then you've probably done something wrong.
This is wrong with standard 3hatch opener. Most standard 3hatch START double gas at 6:00, meaning you won't have ling speed until ~8:45 I think. In order to get speed by 7:00, you need to start speed at 5:10, meaning you need to start your extractor at roughly 4:00. The only standard openers that do this are ones that blindly open speed, or based on scouting something like... cyber before nexus.
Cyber before nexus may be a "standard" opener but obviously it's less economical than nexus-first or gateway into nexus. I see gateway expands or nexus-first/forge-first expands far more than I see cyber-first on ladder, so I consider those standard... and cyber-before-nexus is less economical than those openers. Regardless this is becoming a semantics argument, but I am really curious about suggested reactions/scouting to sangate or 7gate off of cyber-first that does not rely on such an early roach warren.
I see plenty of pros go mass slowling vs "light" gateway pressure... and die, so I don't really consider this a reliable way to hold these types of pressure. There's a reason San had such a ridiculously high winrate in ZvP last year.
|
On February 04 2015 02:32 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 02:02 Moosegills wrote:
If you throw down a 5:15 roach warren vs a person going 7 gate or immortal all in (at a high level) you will die because you are "cutting" way too early and your economy won't be large enough to survive those attacks. While sure this response is suitable vs sangate, and may work for you vs all builds, it is way too generalized to be taken as "good advice"
What is your advice to hold a 7gate then? (honest question, not trying to be flippant) When I said "pump units" that's a little premature, I agree, when I said "less drones" you get out less drones due to mining gas early on vs a standard gasless opener. However I believe the earlier roach warren is warranted vs cyber-first. How else would you open vs this? 5:15 is earlier than any reliable scouting occurs on the zerg side, as far as I know, beyond the first 2 lings/ finding nexus timings. Standard OL sac is at 6:30 and that's far too late of a scout to react vs a concerted cyber-before-nexus pressure.
Assuming its a "standard" 2 player map in which you will always get your first overlords in position, its easy to scout the 4 gate. The combination of zealot made before nexus started (to secure proxy pylon), no 2nd gas, extra gateways are made at an early time (~4:45 opposed to ~5:10 when you can afford extra gates w/o cutting probes), and observed chronoboost on warpgate. Your first overlord should be able to see all of these things because the protoss doesn't have anti air out before they performing these actions. So if you see these things, yes feel free to get your 5:15 roach warren. Otherwise I cannot think of a reason you would want to get it before 6:15 at the earliest.
Edit: As a note, I highly prefer opening up ling speed vs gate core openers and thus use speedlings to defend sangate opposed to roaches. For example if I scouted a 4 gate coming I would - get speed, 31 supply 3rd hatchery, 30 overlord, make lings and kill proxy pylon + first round of zealots.
|
On February 04 2015 03:01 Moosegills wrote:
Assuming its a "standard" 2 player map in which you will always get your first overlords in position, its easy to scout the 4 gate. The combination of zealot made before nexus started (to secure proxy pylon), no 2nd gas, extra gateways are made at an early time (~4:45 opposed to ~5:10 when you can afford extra gates w/o cutting probes), and observed chronoboost on warpgate. Your first overlord should be able to see all of these things because the protoss doesn't have anti air out before they performing these actions. So if you see these things, yes feel free to get your 5:15 roach warren. Otherwise I cannot think of a reason you would want to get it before 6:15 at the earliest.
Edit: As a note, I highly prefer opening up ling speed vs gate core openers and thus use speedlings to defend sangate opposed to roaches. For example if I scouted a 4 gate coming I would - get speed, 31 supply 3rd hatchery, 30 overlord, make lings and kill proxy pylon + first round of zealots.
Thanks. So basically when do you move your OL to safety? Do you keep the OL on top of the cyber and then move it after 5 seconds or so to scout the first chrono in case he's going stalker?
|
On February 04 2015 03:18 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 03:01 Moosegills wrote:
Assuming its a "standard" 2 player map in which you will always get your first overlords in position, its easy to scout the 4 gate. The combination of zealot made before nexus started (to secure proxy pylon), no 2nd gas, extra gateways are made at an early time (~4:45 opposed to ~5:10 when you can afford extra gates w/o cutting probes), and observed chronoboost on warpgate. Your first overlord should be able to see all of these things because the protoss doesn't have anti air out before they performing these actions. So if you see these things, yes feel free to get your 5:15 roach warren. Otherwise I cannot think of a reason you would want to get it before 6:15 at the earliest.
Edit: As a note, I highly prefer opening up ling speed vs gate core openers and thus use speedlings to defend sangate opposed to roaches. For example if I scouted a 4 gate coming I would - get speed, 31 supply 3rd hatchery, 30 overlord, make lings and kill proxy pylon + first round of zealots. Thanks. So basically when do you move your OL to safety? Do you keep the OL on top of the cyber and then move it after 5 seconds or so to scout the first chrono in case he's going stalker?
You can just wait and see when he's making something out of the gateway, once he starts making something out of the gateway (after nexus is placed) then move your overlord to safety.
|
On February 03 2015 17:42 grimAuxiliatrix wrote:
I'm returning to the game (have been gone since 2012), and just got HotS. The builds on the Liquidpedia strategy portal seem to be a bit dated, so I'm wondering what the state of the matchup is in each of ZvP, ZvT and ZvZ. Naming the staple builds would help, but any links to other sources would be great as well. Thanks!
I really want to hear from some good players on this but no one's responded yet so I'll give it a try!
I'm Gold grinding my way back to Plat after about 2 months off, so take ALL of my answers with a huge grain of salt, please. I don't know your league so some of this stuff is REALLY noob (sorry in advance).
ZvZ safe opener from a Master's Leaguer:
15 pool
15 hatch
15 gas
speed with first 100 gas
bane nest with next 50
spine after bane nest
roach warren and evo after that
then third base
if they take an early third go put on pressure with ling bling
if they dont then prepare for whatever comes next
either mutas, 2 base roach, or an all in
It's 6 months old but still a good start for me.
Random ZvZ tips:
- Drone micro is still very important because early pools happen a lot - scout 2nd base timing with your first overlord.
- You could get bane's nest before speed if you think early lings are coming.
- I don't believe every game degenerates to a roach war anymore, but 2 base mass roach timings are very very common.
- I think Muta wars are less common before the late game because spores are so strong, but mass mid to late game Mutas are still a threat.
- Sim city is very important. Also two queens will block a ramp (briefly, in an emergency).
- Some Zergs will go SH/muta, which is very disconcerting. If a Swarm Hosting player successfully focuses his opponents overseers with muta or hydra he's usually going to win IMHO.
ZvP Goswer Roach Ling All-in: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-zerg/hots-zvp/zvp-goswers-2-base-roachling-all-in/ Very old but works surprisingly well. I never get this perfect and I really screw it up about half the time, and even given that, I win most of my ZvP's with this. Watch for cannon rushes in this matchup, obviously. A Zerg almost always needs to stay 1 base or more ahead of Protoss or Terran.
ZvT is tough for me. I usually go
15h,
15p, then queen ASAP
17g,
get ling speed and a bane's nest,
try to saturate 3 bases,
mass ling/bane and get really good map control with lings, overlords and creep.
Random ZvT tips
- Get 2 queens ASAP for reaper defense, then add a third queen or more for creep spread.
- I go for a 2 or 3 base muta timing to attack his production if I'm feeling even or ahead.
- Baneling landmines sometimes work vs bio if you're feeling behind (and it's always a fun style to me).
- Speed roaches followed by some burrow shenanigans might be fun if your micro is above your league.
- I drop an infestation pit for swarm hosts as soon as I smell mech.
- If you practice TheStaircase (which I HIGHLY recommend), this is a great matchup to go only ling-bane and work on expanding, droning, creep and other mechanics.
Again, I'm lower league, so please comment if you disagree. GL HF!
|
@MonkeyBot I was formerly Diamond on toss but I'm switching to Zerg since I figure I might as well learn something new. I'm likely low gold at best. Thanks a ton for the info!
|
Canada11355 Posts
On February 03 2015 23:59 KelsierSC wrote:
How are other zergs spending their vetos
I have inferno, overgrowth and Secret Spring turned off.
Why overgrowth? I have deadwing, inferno, secret spring vetoed
|
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On February 04 2015 05:40 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 23:59 KelsierSC wrote:
How are other zergs spending their vetos
I have inferno, overgrowth and Secret Spring turned off. Why overgrowth? I have deadwing, inferno, secret spring vetoed
not a big fan of it I guess
deadwing is massive and I quite like that map
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
