EPTsnute beleives that pool vs hatch first is mutch more viable. and in plat/diamond leagues sometimes you face a cheese then u have a better chance.
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 239
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RevolutionX
Netherlands18 Posts
snute beleives that pool vs hatch first is mutch more viable. and in plat/diamond leagues sometimes you face a cheese then u have a better chance. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On February 06 2015 00:06 Moosegills wrote: While I admit I've never done the math for it, if you want to play "safe" in ZvZ it would be better to just 15 pool or 15 hatch 14 pool. Going along with your theory that if you know what your opponent is doing you will beat him, what builds do you feel like you won't be able to scout properly without drone scouting? It isn't necessarily specific builds I am looking for, I mean obviously I want to know if a cheese is coming, but in reality I just want to know the exact opening of my opponent as fast as possible. Then I can play either safe and be fine against cheese, or play super greed and get ahead etc. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On February 06 2015 11:05 ThePastor wrote: It isn't necessarily specific builds I am looking for, I mean obviously I want to know if a cheese is coming, but in reality I just want to know the exact opening of my opponent as fast as possible. Then I can play either safe and be fine against cheese, or play super greed and get ahead etc. If there aren't specific builds or things you are looking for, what is the point of drone scouting. I'm not trying to say your "wrong", but you should try to have specific justifications or it seems like a total waste. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On February 06 2015 12:50 Moosegills wrote: If there aren't specific builds or things you are looking for, what is the point of drone scouting. I'm not trying to say your "wrong", but you should try to have specific justifications or it seems like a total waste. I never drone scout in any matchup since I prefer SCjohns way of thinking about it but I do agree with ThePastor here. If you are only drone scouting for a certain build than your drone scout will probably be a waste most of the time. The point is as ThePastor says to adjust your build depending on what you scout, not to scout for specific things. Scouting can go both ways, either you scout and react with units or you scout and react with greed, scouting can be used for many more things than just "I want to scout 10 pool baneling all-in so I don't die" it can also lead into scouting hatchfirst late gas and then you can be greedy as hell. Scouting is also a tool for getting ahead for the mid game. | ||
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Archiatrus
Germany64 Posts
Second question: When should I take my third vP with roach/hydra for the mid-game in mind? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 06 2015 17:13 Archiatrus wrote: When should I send an overlord into my opponents base in every match-up? I often lose because I did not see it coming (mass hellions and dts were the last examples). Usually I have a overlord in place, but too early and I see nothing (at least for me barely platinum it looks like nothing) and too late... well when my drones die to invisible shadows it is quite telling what he is doing:/ Second question: When should I take my third vP with roach/hydra for the mid-game in mind? Around 6-6'30mins is a good time to sacrifice an overlord against T and P. Against T the most interesting facts are: 2nd gas? 3rd CC? Starport? If Starport with or without techlab? Can he hellbat push of his setup? And then anything else you can gather like if he is already committing to bio with stim instead of starport and stuff like that. Protoss is harder but gas is again a huge tell. 1gas usually means gateway allin but can also be aomething like robo/zealot or prism+gateway. If he has neither, robo nor stargate nor third it's fishy. Sentry counts are also interesting, moat fast third builds include many sentries. If he doesnt build sentries (so like 1 or none) and he has 3-4gas it is probably blink or some DT bullshittery but could also be proxy stargate or proxy robo or you just missed his tech in his base. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On February 06 2015 16:51 Shuffleblade wrote: I never drone scout in any matchup since I prefer SCjohns way of thinking about it but I do agree with ThePastor here. If you are only drone scouting for a certain build than your drone scout will probably be a waste most of the time. The point is as ThePastor says to adjust your build depending on what you scout, not to scout for specific things. Scouting can go both ways, either you scout and react with units or you scout and react with greed, scouting can be used for many more things than just "I want to scout 10 pool baneling all-in so I don't die" it can also lead into scouting hatchfirst late gas and then you can be greedy as hell. Scouting is also a tool for getting ahead for the mid game. I'm only talking about drone scouting in ZvZ here. If you aren't scouting for specific things how are you going to adjust your build depending on what you scout... | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On February 06 2015 16:51 Shuffleblade wrote: I am confused as to what exactly you can do to be "greedy as hell" vs hatch first gasless (assuming that's what you mean by late gas) that you can't do with an overlord.I never drone scout in any matchup since I prefer SCjohns way of thinking about it but I do agree with ThePastor here. If you are only drone scouting for a certain build than your drone scout will probably be a waste most of the time. The point is as ThePastor says to adjust your build depending on what you scout, not to scout for specific things. Scouting can go both ways, either you scout and react with units or you scout and react with greed, scouting can be used for many more things than just "I want to scout 10 pool baneling all-in so I don't die" it can also lead into scouting hatchfirst late gas and then you can be greedy as hell. Scouting is also a tool for getting ahead for the mid game. If you just decide to skip everything else but the drone scout and greed it out the zerg could have just takes gasses as soon as you left and prepared some all in ( like some 2 gas roach push with 2 queens and speedlings flood + a spine) if a zerg goes hatch first, you can scout whether they go gasless or not anyway ( with the overlord) on every 2 player map if you want to play safe you can go pool first and confirm the gas timing vs hatch first (big advantage of pool first is that it's much easier to scout with lings). As I mentioned before people undersetimate how much a drone scout slows you down, it's not that big a deal outside of zvz, but in zvz it delays your pool so much that 9 pool vs drone scout into pool is something I feel very comfortable playing . | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On February 07 2015 03:03 Moosegills wrote: I'm only talking about drone scouting in ZvZ here. If you aren't scouting for specific things how are you going to adjust your build depending on what you scout... Agreed, it was me misinterpreting what was being discussed (or not looking through what had been said enough). In ZvZ I agree, I thought we were discussing scouting generally. | ||
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RevolutionX
Netherlands18 Posts
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
Is it an early pool? Cancel nat put pool down faster. Is it 14/14? Put pool down asap, no more drones, chuck a spine etc etc. Is it 15 with gas? drone accordingly, check for gas timing etc. Is it 15 gasless? Go go drones and take a fast 3rd. I acknowledge I have not done the math to work out efficiency, but it seems to work for me up to Masters. If it begins to become a costly thing to do I will stop doing it, but I seem to have success with it. | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On February 07 2015 11:27 ThePastor wrote: Don't react too much to 14/14 it's hilariously easy to defend with gasless.ZvZ drone scouting is obviously the most costly. Generally I am planning on going for a 15h gas/no gas depending on how I am feeling. What am I looking for? Is it an early pool? Cancel nat put pool down faster. Is it 14/14? Put pool down asap, no more drones, chuck a spine etc etc. Is it 15 with gas? drone accordingly, check for gas timing etc. Is it 15 gasless? Go go drones and take a fast 3rd. I acknowledge I have not done the math to work out efficiency, but it seems to work for me up to Masters. If it begins to become a costly thing to do I will stop doing it, but I seem to have success with it. One of the biggest issues with drone scouting in zvz is that you arrive too early to get any meaningful information. Like if they go gasless hatch vs your gasless hatch you are obvously behind on minerals, but on top of that on almost every map they will have the same information as you, because you can dive the main with an overlord vs hatch first. However you need to follow up scout anyway, because they can do something like take double gas the second you leave their base or lose the drone and do some all in. Or take a fast third as well and just be slightly ahead. One option I have seen people do to avoid this (would not reccomend it , but I would reccomend drone scouting in zvz either :D ) is scout with an extractor trick and block the hatch if it's hatch first while going pool first at home, so they delay the enemies hatch but they have superior information because pool first means the other zerg can't scout you. Vs 15 hatch with gas you need to be very aware of his spawning pool timing if it's 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas he can scout your gasses very easily. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On February 07 2015 17:50 HellHound wrote: Don't react too much to 14/14 it's hilariously easy to defend with gasless. Can you elaborate on this? I have a hard time holding allins with gasless... I have even had situations where my wall is up and gets broken through with a large amount of bane/speedling. What adjustments should be made to a gasless into roach opener (if you know an allin is coming) both A. before a wall is up and B. after the wall is up and blocked by queens? | ||
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ForeignLingKing
United States1 Post
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On February 08 2015 00:57 Defenestrator wrote: Can you elaborate on this? I have a hard time holding allins with gasless... I have even had situations where my wall is up and gets broken through with a large amount of bane/speedling. What adjustments should be made to a gasless into roach opener (if you know an allin is coming) both A. before a wall is up and B. after the wall is up and blocked by queens? vs 14/14 just wall ramp with queens and make 2 spines. Just hit your transfuses when they try to burst down 1 of your spines with banes. After you hold the first wave its over If you are losing to ling bane attacks off of 2 base you are probably just starting your wall too late. Maybe post a rep and I'll take a look at it | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On February 08 2015 01:31 ForeignLingKing wrote: Hey, when going for a fast 3 base in ZvP and the toss decides to take an early third base himself, what would be the appropriate response. I usually take a fourth base myself, but they usually come about 3 mins late and just have 9 gates with blink stalkers and win. It really depends on scout timing and what you are currently making. A general rule of thumb, if you scout a base building and you haven't built units for a timing attack, don't bother expand. Generally speaking, if you see it and then build units to pressure it you will get there when the defences are set up. As for dying to a nine gate follow up, you just need to be scouting and trying to work out what is coming. Post a replay and I am sure one of us will be happy to check it out. | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On February 08 2015 00:57 Defenestrator wrote: Can you elaborate on this? I have a hard time holding allins with gasless... I have even had situations where my wall is up and gets broken through with a large amount of bane/speedling. What adjustments should be made to a gasless into roach opener (if you know an allin is coming) both A. before a wall is up and B. after the wall is up and blocked by queens? Obviously it depends on the map (distance between the ramp to the main and hatch mostly) and when you see it, in my comment I meant it's easy to hold when you know it's coming, else it can be a pain :D Generally just make a spine asap some lings to get bit in the face a bit and keep making queens keep your queens in places that lowers surface area (between minerals on ramp, between spine and hatch, etc) Don't let them get in your main. That's pretty much it. | ||
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
I guess i could concentrate more on spreading creep towards the right side, still the distance to cover seems so long. If that doesnt work i could try to speed up the creepspread with overlords and/or hatchery cancel, anyone doing that? | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On February 12 2015 16:37 zerge wrote: Whats your guys opinion on thr 4th base on overgrowth in ZvT? I always have problems spreading creep on the right side of the map. Hence its hard to see/defend pushes towards my 4th when i take the base in the corner. Should i take the base in front of my main instead? I always have more creep there. I guess i could concentrate more on spreading creep towards the right side, still the distance to cover seems so long. If that doesnt work i could try to speed up the creepspread with overlords and/or hatchery cancel, anyone doing that? I use my OL to spread some creep that direction and then just pop a tumour down. Or just 3 base all in on that map. | ||
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lannisport
878 Posts
Also, is there a guide on viper usage? I'm still new to using them so I tend to throw away big engagements at times by say, throwing down blinding clouds and suiciding my army into the toss' army by accident. Versus 3-5 collosus should I always be pulling? | ||
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