EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 241
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Reki
Philippines89 Posts
| ||
|
brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On February 18 2015 12:14 Reki wrote: I could see that a lot of people are telling to not drone scout anymore if you go 14 or 15 pool first in zvp but isn't it disastrous if the toss guy does a cannon rush feint by dropping a pylon on your nat and you have no choice but to bite the bait and pull 4-6 drones even if youre not even sure if he has a forge or not? Doesnt something like this warrant a 10 drone scout even if you pool first? the whole point of pool first is that you dont have to pull a lot of drones against a pylon? as soon as you see an early scout just build your overlord and save larvae and if he builds a pylon make lings. you need 1 drone maximum to block pylon walls (probably not even that) and then you just wait for the lings. if it's a fake 9scout with a fake pylon he's committed so much that making fast lings isn't a problem, it shuts down any real cannon rush and if it's not forge you can counterattack and force him to chrono out zealot and msc to avoid chip damage to his wall. so he's not getting ahead by doing this. if you want to drone scout you should just hatch first anyway. why would you pool first if it weren't safe against cannon rushes? good protosses don't cannon rush when they see pool first. | ||
|
NaboliC
Sweden130 Posts
On February 18 2015 08:04 velvex wrote: The weakness of this all-in is that it's quite easy to scout: forge, robo, only one gas – it's a very specific setup that isn't good for much else. Get two-base saturation with two or three gases and make roaches. According to PiG, it's more important to limit the zealots' surface area than to kill the immortal (Protoss players who have practiced this build will save their immortals with their warp prism, anyway). So move your roaches to places where zealots can't hit them well, i.e. behind minerals or buildings. If you have some zerglings, they can attack the immortals from behind and tank some shots. With 3 hatch before pool without zergling speed, you should actually be in the best position to hold this. Maybe you assumed a too high drone saturation? I can scout it but i can't kill it. I will probably leave the third base alone to potentially sacrifice it or at least not defend it and not saturate it. The problem when killing zealots is that you don't want to be caught somewhere so the immortals can kill all my roaches. I have to move them backwards here to be able to not die. It's maybe because I drone too high. I will try this build 50 times and then I hope I will figure the right balance between drones and roaches, or else I just uninstall the game and leave it to protoss to play. | ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On February 18 2015 20:29 NaboliC wrote: I can scout it but i can't kill it. I will probably leave the third base alone to potentially sacrifice it or at least not defend it and not saturate it. The problem when killing zealots is that you don't want to be caught somewhere so the immortals can kill all my roaches. I have to move them backwards here to be able to not die. It's maybe because I drone too high. I will try this build 50 times and then I hope I will figure the right balance between drones and roaches, or else I just uninstall the game and leave it to protoss to play. Stop at 35-42 drones (preferably closer to 42, depending on your macro), 2 gasses, 1-2 extra queens. Go mass roach when you stop droning, and bring your queens (2-3) to the front when he's pushing. Use your queens to focus down the warp prism while engaging the rest of the army with your roaches. To be safe don't get lair or ling speed, save the gas for roaches. If you shut down the warp prism, this push falls apart real quick. However if you let it live it can become a royal pain in the ass. An alternate approach is to use a spore, but queens are more mobile. | ||
|
Running
13 Posts
On February 19 2015 01:36 Defenestrator wrote: Stop at 35-42 drones (preferably closer to 42, depending on your macro), 2 gasses, 1-2 extra queens. Go mass roach when you stop droning, and bring your queens (2-3) to the front when he's pushing. Use your queens to focus down the warp prism while engaging the rest of the army with your roaches. To be safe don't get lair or ling speed, save the gas for roaches. If you shut down the warp prism, this push falls apart real quick. However if you let it live it can become a royal pain in the ass. An alternate approach is to use a spore, but queens are more mobile. Is this build called man train i think? Seems impossible to defend if you go up to 3 gas, anyone successful with building banelings to kill all the zealots? | ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On February 19 2015 14:55 Running wrote: Is this build called man train i think? Seems impossible to defend if you go up to 3 gas, anyone successful with building banelings to kill all the zealots? Going up to 3 gas is a mistake vs any 1-gas opener IMO. Off of 2 gas you should be able to produce enough roaches to hold these kind of pushes, and you need minerals for everything else since your drone count is so low. | ||
|
EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On February 20 2015 00:22 Defenestrator wrote: Going up to 3 gas is a mistake vs any 1-gas opener IMO. Off of 2 gas you should be able to produce enough roaches to hold these kind of pushes, and you need minerals for everything else since your drone count is so low. yes, I agree, no more then 2 gas vs 1 gas builds also make sure to have creep. if you do gasless 3 hatch b4 pool, make sure to double or even triple tumor so your slow roaches can kite the zealots | ||
|
Reki
Philippines89 Posts
On February 18 2015 15:33 brickrd wrote: if it's a fake 9scout with a fake pylon he's committed so much that making fast lings isn't a problem, it shuts down any real cannon rush and if it's not forge you can counterattack and force him to chrono out zealot and msc to avoid chip damage to his wall. so he's not getting ahead by doing Thanks. Im actually surprised that a single pylon with the intent to cancel it is counted as a commitment. I should send my lings to his base next time instead of looking for proxies this early. Another question, is ultra infestor comp ever feasable vs toss? Any tips on how to transition to it safely? I only read about it being used by leenock which was shut down pretty hard once toss sees upgraded lings. | ||
|
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On February 20 2015 11:17 Reki wrote: Thanks. Im actually surprised that a single pylon with the intent to cancel it is counted as a commitment. I should send my lings to his base next time instead of looking for proxies this early. Another question, is ultra infestor comp ever feasable vs toss? Any tips on how to transition to it safely? I only read about it being used by leenock which was shut down pretty hard once toss sees upgraded lings. Soo uses it as well, I think Day9 did a daily on it somewhere, so I would definitely say it's viable. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 20 2015 11:17 Reki wrote: Thanks. Im actually surprised that a single pylon with the intent to cancel it is counted as a commitment. I should send my lings to his base next time instead of looking for proxies this early. Another question, is ultra infestor comp ever feasable vs toss? Any tips on how to transition to it safely? I only read about it being used by leenock which was shut down pretty hard once toss sees upgraded lings. It's kind of hard these days to use that composition to be honest, a lot of it being because the maps just don't support it. You need a lot of open space to maneuver and the third needs to be quite hard to wall + a bigger rush distance helps. If you want to play it I think Vaani is a good choice these days. A link to soO's build order from a year ago, which was usually focusing a lot on mutalisks in the midgame and then transitioning into ultra/infestor/ling/muta: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/450425-sc2-notes-soos-double-ups-ling-opening-zvp But I find it hard to emulate that build on the ladder, because it really only works against a very passive, standard play type of Protoss. Unless you are Masters or higher (in that case I probably cannot help you ^^) I would recommend that you try to freestyle it a little more with the cornerstones the soO build gives. In particular, against 2base allins you probably just cannot play it at all. In that case you need a roach warren and usually you simply cannot afford to have melee/armor upgrades going while the Protoss does an attack with chronoboosted +1advantage. | ||
|
Krmenadla
2 Posts
Ok, I concluded that I lose more army then should due to not clicking on the right spot when my army is facing opponents. Yesterday I had selected 30 zerglings (ZvZ), opponent had similar, same tech, same upgraded lings speed. My opponent killed all of them with 10 lings alive at the end. I read that when selecting super speedy lings, best is to bypass opponent (click behind enemy) and let lings do their speedy job (they will spread around opponent and kill it with minimum loses). I am aware of army micro management (still learning) but I'm talking here small lings going head to head with upgraded speeds, almost imposible to micro them. What are your advices on this? Should I have clicked with all 30 lings on first opponent zergling that was approaching? Or little infront of them letting my army spread (by computer's algorithm)? Or maybe click on middle ling of opponents? (worst case, I think) Or try to spread them into few mini-armies? One left, one right? But where to click in this case also? It was very fast, they just bumped on each other and killing started. Thanks  | ||
|
Wildbuddha
37 Posts
On February 20 2015 18:10 Krmenadla wrote: Where to click when attacking? Thanks 30v30, nobody microed and he has 10 left? Are you sure that the updates were the same? Were you on move command while his lings were attacking? Really the same ammount of lings? +-5 lings can make a huge difference as well Did he get a full surround? Kind of depends IMO. Main thing is, get at least the same amount of lings fighting at a time than him. If for example, he is clumped up and you manage to surround, awesome. But if you run arround on move command, while his lings attack, not awesome. In general: - position your army so that Zerglings don't get stuck behind other Zerglings, thus run around not attacking. I would go on unit tester in arcade or sth and play around a bit. That beeing said, depending on you skill level, it is rarely worth it to focus much on ling vs ling micro. It takes your focus from macro, awareness etc. and doesn't do too much. | ||
|
velvex
Germany226 Posts
On February 20 2015 18:10 Krmenadla wrote: Where to click when attacking? [...] This sounds suspiciously like you don't know how to attack-move. Attack-moving means your units will go to a specific location and attack all enemy units on the way, as opposed to a regular move command which will make your units ignore enemy units. To attack-move, simply press the hotkey for "attack" (Standard: A, Grid: T) and click on the ground somewhere near the enemy lings. There's not much micro to be done as long there are no banelings around. | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
charmingone
United States1 Post
| ||
|
Krmenadla
2 Posts
I think I got your points, many thanks. | ||
|
Overfly
25 Posts
I always have a trouble when it comes to the moment when I have to put additional extractor(s). I always end up with too many gas and lack of minerals income or vice versa. What I usually play is gain first 100 gas -> 3 drones back to minerals -> lings swiftness. Then around 5 min mark I go back 3 drones to my first extractor and creating the second one. And then I'm lost. Have no idea when to put next extractors at my natural and 3rd base, I know it depends the strategy I play but well... | ||
|
Azra
United States8 Posts
On February 22 2015 02:15 abstrahulum wrote: I wanna know some basic zerg gas timings during the game in each match up. I always have a trouble when it comes to the moment when I have to put additional extractor(s). I always end up with too many gas and lack of minerals income or vice versa. What I usually play is gain first 100 gas -> 3 drones back to minerals -> lings swiftness. Then around 5 min mark I go back 3 drones to my first extractor and creating the second one. And then I'm lost. Have no idea when to put next extractors at my natural and 3rd base, I know it depends the strategy I play but well... Alright, so you are doing the early speed opener, right? I thing the timings work out when you send the drone out to at around 5:00-5:30 to get the third hatch up. When your speed finishes grab refill the original gas geyser and get 2 more. Thats 3 gas total and you are free to go Lair and get your evo chambers up. You want to send 6-8 lings at 7:30 to scout. In ZvP, you are looking for sentry count. If he doesn't have 5-7 sentries at this time you know for a fact tech is coming. Obviously he could be hiding sentries up the ramp but usually you can get a sense of it. Keep your lings alive and check his third at 9:00 and its the presence of an expansion is what determines if you are going to flood lings or not. | ||
|
KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
Any hints would be appreciated, doesn't matter if it's a big korean pro or a foreigner doing it, I just want to have someone to look up games of and analyze. The more recent, the better! To clarify, with "aggressive SH" I mean utilizing SH to SOME extend, but not FireCake style. I can already copy that but I kinda refuse to. | ||
|
Reki
Philippines89 Posts
On February 23 2015 10:07 KeksX wrote: As someone coming back and using outdated builds, what zerg players should I look out for playing aggressive Zerg(with SH if possible) styles? In preperation for the SH change and LotV I wanna get used to playing swarmhosts but being aggressive at the same time. Any hints would be appreciated, doesn't matter if it's a big korean pro or a foreigner doing it, I just want to have someone to look up games of and analyze. The more recent, the better! To clarify, with "aggressive SH" I mean utilizing SH to SOME extend, but not FireCake style. I can already copy that but I kinda refuse to. Tbh I stopped playing for a long time because i was trying too hard to use SHs agressively. I can't seemto use blade's or katlyn's style of roach hydra sh or hydra sh to get me out of kr plat because the toss just barrels down to my base with double robo collo. Vipers just dont make it in time. When this happens, you have to transition to full sh defense with corruptor which is what I was trying to prevent in the first place. | ||
| ||
