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On February 26 2015 10:30 Fairchild wrote:
Are there any effective early aggression openings vs Protoss anymore?
I haven't played much since HOTS came out, and im not up to date.. in fact I don't know how to deal with spider mines.. but that's something else..
I want to know if there are any effective 1-2 base attacks vs protoss that Zerg can use to catch them off guard. I like playing aggressively, bane bust, roach rush, type stuff. But toss seem impervious early game with their mothership core and nexus defense thing.
Depends on the league. In plat, I have high success rate with +1+1 roach push from 2 base into 3 base +2+2 rhv, because they either try to cheeze, go for 2 base all-in or try to take a very early third.
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On February 27 2015 06:48 therealkillemall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 07:08 DERASTAT wrote:On February 26 2015 06:23 therealkillemall wrote:
Hi everyone.
Here is the thing. I have several times this build out of terran:
They block your natural with an e-bay (btw, what's the best response in that case?) and expand after that -strangely getting a planetary fortress. The next move is building ravens non stop and expanding when possible. If you're not careful enough they ninja expand. I wasnt able to deny the 3rd and eventually lost. I don't know what the best response is. Getting infestors, sure ... but when? Mutas? I dont think so. I felt really lost in that games. I wish i could attach a replay but i can't find them.
Any ideas? Thx! first of all, when he ebay blocks you attack with one or two drones the scv building the ebay and dont let the ebay finish, when you see him build a planatary fortress on his naturell, just drone harder and then you can kill him with roaches or Muta Ling bane, because you will have way more stuff and kill him before he gets too many Ravens Ok thx! Im having a lot of trouble against mech also. If the game goes to late game I cannot think a way to win. I am really lost against mech once they have the 3rd expansion and eventually the 4th. Mass raven just seems impossible to beat. Any suggestions? Thx.
Don't let it get to that part 
Other than that. Late game mech is hard to beat. You could go SH Vipers with burrowed roach counterattacks
Or you could go mass muta, never really attack his main army, "out-base" him and wear him down with harassment. whenever he moves his army (to take out one of your bases for example), go guerillia on his ass and take out small chunks of his army. I am pretty sure day9 discussed a pro example of this a while ago, but I can't find it.
If he really goes ultra heavy on Ravens, you could also try to make him seeker missile his own army. Mutas are fast enough, to fly the ones targeted (or a few more) into the ravens, makeing them kill themselfes. But that is a difficult micro move.
You could also go for Ultras. They don't really care about Ravens and are not really micro dependant.
Some people say, Infestors are your best bet against ravens. Sounds good, but I never managed to win that way. Maybe my infestor controll is just to weak.
In any case, try to "out-base" and out mine him when he turtles mech. That way, you could make a hughe tech switch. Go SH first, he goes tanks Hellions/bats, you switch to mass Muta.
But your best bet is, to kill him before he is maxed, otherwise it gets really hard. I hate balance discussion, but very late game, I'd say Zerg is the weakest race.
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On February 26 2015 10:30 Fairchild wrote:
Are there any effective early aggression openings vs Protoss anymore?
I haven't played much since HOTS came out, and im not up to date.. in fact I don't know how to deal with spider mines.. but that's something else..
I want to know if there are any effective 1-2 base attacks vs protoss that Zerg can use to catch them off guard. I like playing aggressively, bane bust, roach rush, type stuff. But toss seem impervious early game with their mothership core and nexus defense thing.
The only really "cheesy "all in"" that is high percentage is the old roach max (11:00-12:00) depending on your build order and macro skill.
Max out. hit at two different places. the protoss must keep their units together or lose. So you attack where they are not, snipe bases, and then crush them.
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Can anyone direct me to a pro replay where someone takes a swift victory vs mech, I'm fed up of having to sit around for 45mins slowly trying to pick off ravens before getting stomped even with a massive bank lots of larva and having starved them onto 4 bases maximum.
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On February 28 2015 03:42 Ovid wrote:
Can anyone direct me to a pro replay where someone takes a swift victory vs mech, I'm fed up of having to sit around for 45mins slowly trying to pick off ravens before getting stomped even with a massive bank lots of larva and having starved them onto 4 bases maximum.
http://sc2casts.com/cast17570-PiG-vs-Happy-BO3-in-1-video-2015-WCS-Season-1-Group-Stage
PiG vs Happy G3, 2nd set, start at the 1:30:00 mark, roach drop into nydus.
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On February 28 2015 03:57 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 03:42 Ovid wrote:
Can anyone direct me to a pro replay where someone takes a swift victory vs mech, I'm fed up of having to sit around for 45mins slowly trying to pick off ravens before getting stomped even with a massive bank lots of larva and having starved them onto 4 bases maximum. http://sc2casts.com/cast17570-PiG-vs-Happy-BO3-in-1-video-2015-WCS-Season-1-Group-StagePiG vs Happy G3, 2nd set, start at the 1:30:00 mark, roach drop into nydus.
Too early, your lair is starting way before you know if it's mech so it's not a reaction upon seeing mech but a predetermined build. I was thinking about things like fast vipers or broodlord timings something all in but upon reacting.
Thanks for the suggestion though, wasn't clear with what I wanted.
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On February 28 2015 04:27 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 03:57 Defenestrator wrote:On February 28 2015 03:42 Ovid wrote:
Can anyone direct me to a pro replay where someone takes a swift victory vs mech, I'm fed up of having to sit around for 45mins slowly trying to pick off ravens before getting stomped even with a massive bank lots of larva and having starved them onto 4 bases maximum. http://sc2casts.com/cast17570-PiG-vs-Happy-BO3-in-1-video-2015-WCS-Season-1-Group-StagePiG vs Happy G3, 2nd set, start at the 1:30:00 mark, roach drop into nydus. Too early, your lair is starting way before you know if it's mech so it's not a reaction upon seeing mech but a predetermined build. I was thinking about things like fast vipers or broodlord timings something all in but upon reacting. Thanks for the suggestion though, wasn't clear with what I wanted.
Solar vs Dream game 2 from their GSL group is a brood lord timing vs mech
Nerchio vs Happy on Deadwing from their showmatch also shows a brood lord timing (albeit much different and less successful)
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On February 27 2015 05:58 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 10:30 Fairchild wrote:
Are there any effective early aggression openings vs Protoss anymore?
I haven't played much since HOTS came out, and im not up to date.. in fact I don't know how to deal with spider mines.. but that's something else..
I want to know if there are any effective 1-2 base attacks vs protoss that Zerg can use to catch them off guard. I like playing aggressively, bane bust, roach rush, type stuff. But toss seem impervious early game with their mothership core and nexus defense thing. honestly 1-2basing is technically bad against toss because a good toss will scout a late hatch and immediately know to play safe and stack up forcefields until they're fine against infinite roaches amd lings. but that doesn't mean it's impossible on ladder, your opponents won't be perfect. you can grab an early speed and basically 8 roach rush with mass speedling reinforcements and some toss will underreact or fuck up their micro. but yeah it's not really a good style except on multi spawn maps to metagame greed. abusing the rocks on maps like expedition lost or deadwing helps with cheesy aggression. if you like being cheesy one thing you can do is pool first into hidden in-base proxy hatch, take a gas as if getting speed but research burrow instead while adding the roach warren, then you start building roaches in his base and spreading out with burrow micro to basically make it impossible to mine until your reinforcements just kill his wall. scarlett did this against parting on overgrowth in an iem or dreamhack, you should be able to find it by searching scarlett vs parting. i don't know her exact build but it's not too hard to figure out. vaani is a great map for this because when toss sees the missing hatch in your natural he has to consider whether it's proxy hatch, either gold base or even a low ground expand, and these possibilities buy your silly cheesy build a lot of time. it's also great to fake a drone going down to the natural and fight the probe for a while to make toss feel like you want to expand and discourage him from poking around his base for hatcheries. again, a calm and proper reaction from toss will kill this build, but that's the nature of 2hatch zerg. baneling busting is very hard but possible, imo the best scenario to bane bust is if you get cannon rushed or bait a pylon against forge into nexus and delay the cyber core by a lot. deny probe scouts in the main with queens and just gogogo rush banes before he has sentries. don't count on any of these attacks to improve your game or take you to GM, but you'll get some fun quick wins and a lot of nice toss rage if you do them right  edit: oh and i haven't used it much but a nice old allin is 2base queen/hydra nydus, you can check out Life killing Dear with it in the NSSL last night
IMO The most effective 2 base zerg strat is the 4 queen gasless opener. Into +1 speed roach with burrow. (hits at 9:30). Designed to add pressure, or even kill a toss third. while you are able to drone your third base.
I used to use this exclusively when I first got Grandmasters.
2 base, 4 queen +1 1 for lings is cool on paper, However, imo, you just don't have the larve to make it work vs 2 base all in. However, it is effective if they try to go for quick 3 bases.
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On February 28 2015 03:42 Ovid wrote:
Can anyone direct me to a pro replay where someone takes a swift victory vs mech, I'm fed up of having to sit around for 45mins slowly trying to pick off ravens before getting stomped even with a massive bank lots of larva and having starved them onto 4 bases maximum.
The "best all in" you can do vs mech is the 2 2 roach hydra timing with a few vipers. You need to aim to hit between 14-15 min.
13:30 if you skip the vipers.
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On March 01 2015 01:09 EndOfLineTv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 03:42 Ovid wrote:
Can anyone direct me to a pro replay where someone takes a swift victory vs mech, I'm fed up of having to sit around for 45mins slowly trying to pick off ravens before getting stomped even with a massive bank lots of larva and having starved them onto 4 bases maximum. The "best all in" you can do vs mech is the 2 2 roach hydra timing with a few vipers. You need to aim to hit between 14-15 min. 13:30 if you skip the vipers.
That's super late :D
Assuimg you macro properly and don't take stupid damage to their early game (hardest part of mech tbh) you can max out and have vipers at around 12:30-14:00 min depending on how much defense you needed early on.
You might want to just get a mech practice partner to work on your late game control and decision making vs mech.
It's really not that hard to beat in the late game once you get used to it, just time consuming and annoying (SH are the same way in pvz).
There are a lot of ways to play vs mech in the late game so that makes it cool for me, you always need some SH to hold shit together but they usually aren't the most important unit.
Easiest way I think is to just mass Static D with a low sh count (10-15) and get a retarded amount of viper infestor corruptor.
This works because raven viking needs to be on the front line to protect tanks from abducts.
Raven viking can't be too stacked or infestors will fungal them to death.
Abduct has the same range as vikings so if you mix in a few overseers and stack them together with your vipers you can do damage without actually taking any.
Issue with having some particular all in planned vs mech is that they have a stupid defenders advantage, as long as they don't fall too far behind and don't make a dumb comp they can pretty much easily hold any attack that isn't some blind counter.
Hmm I guess the best option would be some 2 base early Lair build start fast lair vs bio go for 2 base muta vs mech go nydus (or 2 base muta scout with overseers what mech thinks it is they don't have money for both early on.)
This would work out often enough, but you still might be forced into a longer game if the mecher does one of the forgg builds that go trollbat banshee into thor viking banshee.
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Hey boys, gonna try to check this thread kind of often and see if I can't help some of y'all out or maybe some of you can help me :D
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On March 01 2015 11:02 mYiKane wrote:
Hey boys, gonna try to check this thread kind of often and see if I can't help some of y'all out or maybe some of you can help me :D
got to take this shot...
relating to your WCS games vs qxc. was the "7queen midgame" smth you prepared especially for qxc or is it viable as a standard "style" in zvt?
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On March 01 2015 19:41 Terence Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 11:02 mYiKane wrote:
Hey boys, gonna try to check this thread kind of often and see if I can't help some of y'all out or maybe some of you can help me :D got to take this shot... relating to your WCS games vs qxc. was the "7queen midgame" smth you prepared especially for qxc or is it viable as a standard "style" in zvt?
It was completely viable in normal zvt, normally i got 3-4 creep spread queens. when i saw he was attacking i pulled all my queens and just remade them in main/natural so i had like 5-6 queens out on map. against banshee play it's also good
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Was watching some Life play in the GSL Protoss group of death and noticed he pretty much went for 2 base Speedling aggression while sneaking in some Drones -> 3 base Roach Ling -> Roach Hydra. Anyone know if this is at least semi-viable in ladder and if it’s extremely difficult for the Protoss to deal with this?
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On March 03 2015 09:59 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Was watching some Life play in the GSL Protoss group of death and noticed he pretty much went for 2 base Speedling aggression while sneaking in some Drones -> 3 base Roach Ling -> Roach Hydra. Anyone know if this is at least semi-viable in ladder and if it’s extremely difficult for the Protoss to deal with this?
Hard question to answer, it really depends on what the protoss is doing. 2 base speedling can be pretty semi-allin or all in itself, so you need to be careful with that. the 3 base roach ling thing is definitely viable (again, depending on what your opponent is doing; might not want to do this vs void ray play with a late third or something). It's usually not a good idea for players to imitate Life as he has a style completely his own that is extremely hard to copy with good results.
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So I'm starting to think that there are but 2 ways to play ZvT
vs Bio Based comps it's all about staying ahead or even in upgrades and playing muta/ling/bling with eventually ultras and maybe a couple of vipers for Thors while absolutely NEVER attacking off creep. You win reliably by basically winning engagements(on creep) and then pushing your creep a little further with each defense. Spine up all bases / use mutas to defend drops. Playing aggressively, as in off creep, is only possible if you have an engagement that goes to your advantage a TON. Oh, also regularly cross fingers that your spread in that engagement is good enough so that widow mines won't kill all your lings.
vs Mech you either kill him with a muta timing if he makes the wrong unit comp early on or gets caught off guard, or you go Viper/Infestor Sporewalls and slowly drain the terran, only taking engagements on creep etc.
Am I too cynical about this, or is it really the only two ways ZvTs play out nowaday? (Talking about straight macro games)
Any hints to what I could do differently are appreciated.
I love to play aggressively and it feels like it's the wrong way to play ZvT in the long run, apart from the roach/bane all ins and other risky stuff, there's not much room to get aggressive.
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On March 04 2015 07:39 KeksX wrote:
vs Bio Based comps it's all about staying ahead or even in upgrades and playing muta/ling/bling with eventually ultras and maybe a couple of vipers for Thors while absolutely NEVER attacking off creep. You win reliably by basically winning engagements(on creep) and then pushing your creep a little further with each defense. Spine up all bases / use mutas to defend drops. Playing aggressively, as in off creep, is only possible if you have an engagement that goes to your advantage a TON. Oh, also regularly cross fingers that your spread in that engagement is good enough so that widow mines won't kill all your lings.
vs Mech you either kill him with a muta timing if he makes the wrong unit comp early on or gets caught off guard, or you go Viper/Infestor Sporewalls and slowly drain the terran, only taking engagements on creep etc.
Am I too cynical about this, or is it really the only two ways ZvTs play out nowaday? (Talking about straight macro games)
Any hints to what I could do differently are appreciated.
I love to play aggressively and it feels like it's the wrong way to play ZvT in the long run, apart from the roach/bane all ins and other risky stuff, there's not much room to get aggressive.
This is coming from a diamond Z perspective, so take from it what you will.
Vs Bio, I think it's correct to take engagements only on creep, but in the meantime you should be using small groups of lings for runbys and your muta ball to go harass. Use small groups of banes and lings (waves of 3-4 banes, 5-6 lings to bait mine shots and kill groups of marines) to keep him from engaging while you do this; NEVER send your whole army. I hardly use my mutas to engage in the T vs Z standoff on the edge of creep, preferring to use them for harass instead.
Once I hit T3, I feel comfortable attacking off of creep with 3-4 ultras and adrenal 3/3 lings. At this point I feel you can take engagements that're worth it off of creep.
Vs mech I always have trouble identifying it early, but if you catch it early enough you can play the mass roach/roach drop into muta switch game. If you let him get critical mass then this doesn't really work, but if you figure out it's mech early enough this is pretty viable (see the WCS games vs Happy by PiG and Kane for examples).
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Thanks for the tips, I'll try to encorporate that into my play!
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On March 04 2015 07:39 KeksX wrote:
So I'm starting to think that there are but 2 ways to play ZvT
vs Bio Based comps it's all about staying ahead or even in upgrades and playing muta/ling/bling with eventually ultras and maybe a couple of vipers for Thors while absolutely NEVER attacking off creep. You win reliably by basically winning engagements(on creep) and then pushing your creep a little further with each defense. Spine up all bases / use mutas to defend drops. Playing aggressively, as in off creep, is only possible if you have an engagement that goes to your advantage a TON. Oh, also regularly cross fingers that your spread in that engagement is good enough so that widow mines won't kill all your lings.
vs Mech you either kill him with a muta timing if he makes the wrong unit comp early on or gets caught off guard, or you go Viper/Infestor Sporewalls and slowly drain the terran, only taking engagements on creep etc.
Am I too cynical about this, or is it really the only two ways ZvTs play out nowaday? (Talking about straight macro games)
Any hints to what I could do differently are appreciated.
I love to play aggressively and it feels like it's the wrong way to play ZvT in the long run, apart from the roach/bane all ins and other risky stuff, there's not much room to get aggressive.
Being agressive vs bio isn't about fighting off creep at all, it's about fighting where his army isn't.
Counters with banes and lings ( a big chunk of them, not a little) are so good in z v bio.
The biggest reason it's so strong is because it forces terran to spilit his attention which allows you to take better fights straight up, z v bio is mostly about keep your concentration up, defend reaper, defend helions, defend annoying drops all while keeping up creep and injects, Counters with ling banes are good cause it forces terran to deal with it and buys you time to inject, creep and macro without the pressure of HOLY SHIT 60 MARINES IN MY FACE.
Mutas have a shitton of uses they are probably the most flexible units zerg has, they can defend bases from drops, they can snipe units out of position, they can harrass the enemy, they can chase down armies, etc
Pretty much anything that applies to ling/bane counters applies to mutas as well.
Vs mech you either go for sometime roach hydra viper muta timing (muta into roach hydra or roach hydra into mass muta switch to fuck with T army comp) Or you go SH infestor viper corruptor queen spine spore crawler and never attack or engage for any reason, just abduct kill unit and back off while massing creep and bases and spores, eventually one of you will run out of money. (I hate mech)
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EPT
