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On February 23 2015 10:07 KeksX wrote:
As someone coming back and using outdated builds, what zerg players should I look out for playing aggressive Zerg(with SH if possible) styles? In preperation for the SH change and LotV I wanna get used to playing swarmhosts but being aggressive at the same time.
Any hints would be appreciated, doesn't matter if it's a big korean pro or a foreigner doing it, I just want to have someone to look up games of and analyze. The more recent, the better!
To clarify, with "aggressive SH" I mean utilizing SH to SOME extend, but not FireCake style. I can already copy that but I kinda refuse to.
When TLO makes swarm hosts in ZvP, he generally uses them very aggressively.
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On February 23 2015 10:07 KeksX wrote:
As someone coming back and using outdated builds, what zerg players should I look out for playing aggressive Zerg(with SH if possible) styles? In preperation for the SH change and LotV I wanna get used to playing swarmhosts but being aggressive at the same time.
Any hints would be appreciated, doesn't matter if it's a big korean pro or a foreigner doing it, I just want to have someone to look up games of and analyze. The more recent, the better!
To clarify, with "aggressive SH" I mean utilizing SH to SOME extend, but not FireCake style. I can already copy that but I kinda refuse to.
Maybe the two best methods of using SH aggressive:
Sh + corruptors + seers (with a roach hydra support)
or
Sh + queens + vipers (with roach hydra support.
You want to open up with a "stephano style" +1 roach max (with added hydra) vs any 2 base toss. and once they go for a third base. you take a 4th and switch into either style.
Super late game you will change those corruptors into brood lords. (with corruptor style)
or
super late game you will mass vipers 10+ of them (with queens style)
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can you hold 8 gate blink with 50ish drones 3 gas roach ling? it feels impossible
how do you defeat protoss
EDIT
also, whats the best response to a protoss who does nexus first with a early 3rd(about 6-8min mark i guess) into airtoss turtling with lots of static d?
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Asked this before, but still lose every time to 9 pool spine, sometimes its 2 or even three spines, they don't stop at 6 lings keep rallying them, I always lose off 15 hatch and with 15 pool I can kill maybe one of the spines, but one eventually finishes or if i get all the spines they have too many lings, do i just have really bad control? I can't find a good video tutorial of someone defending it.
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On February 24 2015 09:27 Aocowns wrote:
can you hold 8 gate blink with 50ish drones 3 gas roach ling? it feels impossible
how do you defeat protoss
EDIT
also, whats the best response to a protoss who does nexus first with a early 3rd(about 6-8min mark i guess) into airtoss turtling with lots of static d?
vs the blink all in, your build needs to be streamlined enough, and your scout good enough to know its coming for you to start unit production at 7 min. This means your build must be perfect so you can get those 50 drones before 7 min.
Vs 3 the base air toss style. I typically will be maxed off roach hydra and have 2 2 before 13;30. I will also bring 8 queens, A move and win.
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On February 24 2015 12:24 Running wrote:
Asked this before, but still lose every time to 9 pool spine, sometimes its 2 or even three spines, they don't stop at 6 lings keep rallying them, I always lose off 15 hatch and with 15 pool I can kill maybe one of the spines, but one eventually finishes or if i get all the spines they have too many lings, do i just have really bad control? I can't find a good video tutorial of someone defending it.
9 pool double spine is the hard counter to 15 hatch 15pool. If you go for 15 pool 15 hatch. You will see them bring the drones and lings. you will need to cancel your natural hatch, make 2 spines in your main, and pull all but 4 drones.
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On February 23 2015 10:07 KeksX wrote:
As someone coming back and using outdated builds, what zerg players should I look out for playing aggressive Zerg(with SH if possible) styles? In preperation for the SH change and LotV I wanna get used to playing swarmhosts but being aggressive at the same time.
Any hints would be appreciated, doesn't matter if it's a big korean pro or a foreigner doing it, I just want to have someone to look up games of and analyze. The more recent, the better!
To clarify, with "aggressive SH" I mean utilizing SH to SOME extend, but not FireCake style. I can already copy that but I kinda refuse to.
Soulkey sometimes plays roach-ling into swarm host contains in ZvP, He usually makes around 10 SH which allows him to pressure the toss while droning/teching/expanding behind it.
Only VOD I can find atm is this: + Show Spoiler + (where he also uses infestors), but he also did it vs Rain in Hey Look, Koreans! on Foxtrot.
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Thanks for all the hints guys, will go on VOD hunt and check out some games! If I find anything useful I'll probably come back here and post results  .
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is there any way to make muta + ling viable against a mid-game roach + hydra rush (~13 minutes)? usually it either ends with me losing most of my econ, but winning the counter (pure luck and lack of scouting from opponent), or I just get crushed before I get to late game with significant melee upgrades + ultras.
should I try mixing in banes or just leave ling/muta be? it's just that it is the far more interesting playstyle imo, but ZvZ is my worst matchup by far.
the most wins I get are if I go 10 pool + early speed. but that feels sooo dirty.
@ Aocowns: (airtoss, early 3rd) hit him with as many hydras as possible at around 12 minutes? (plus trying to get some lings in for early econ damage).
edit: however, note, I am just a platinum scrub ;D
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On February 24 2015 23:27 limbonic wrote:
is there any way to make muta + ling viable against a mid-game roach + hydra rush (~13 minutes)? usually it either ends with me losing most of my econ, but winning the counter (pure luck and lack of scouting from opponent), or I just get crushed before I get to late game with significant melee upgrades + ultras.
should I try mixing in banes or just leave ling/muta be? it's just that it is the far more interesting playstyle imo, but ZvZ is my worst matchup by far.
the most wins I get are if I go 10 pool + early speed. but that feels sooo dirty.
@ Aocowns: (airtoss, early 3rd) hit him with as many hydras as possible at around 12 minutes? (plus trying to get some lings in for early econ damage).
edit: however, note, I am just a platinum scrub ;D
there's few ways you can make non-roach work, and in your case it'd be I assume getting fast bane speed and making a lot of banelings
you die if they get infestors before you get other tech though
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On February 24 2015 14:50 EndOfLineTv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 12:24 Running wrote:
Asked this before, but still lose every time to 9 pool spine, sometimes its 2 or even three spines, they don't stop at 6 lings keep rallying them, I always lose off 15 hatch and with 15 pool I can kill maybe one of the spines, but one eventually finishes or if i get all the spines they have too many lings, do i just have really bad control? I can't find a good video tutorial of someone defending it. 9 pool double spine is the hard counter to 15 hatch 15pool. If you go for 15 pool 15 hatch. You will see them bring the drones and lings. you will need to cancel your natural hatch, make 2 spines in your main, and pull all but 4 drones.
Thanks! where do you place your two spines? And then are you repositioning after they finish building?
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On February 24 2015 23:27 limbonic wrote:
is there any way to make muta + ling viable against a mid-game roach + hydra rush (~13 minutes)? usually it either ends with me losing most of my econ, but winning the counter (pure luck and lack of scouting from opponent), or I just get crushed before I get to late game with significant melee upgrades + ultras.
should I try mixing in banes or just leave ling/muta be? it's just that it is the far more interesting playstyle imo, but ZvZ is my worst matchup by far.
the most wins I get are if I go 10 pool + early speed. but that feels sooo dirty.
@ Aocowns: (airtoss, early 3rd) hit him with as many hydras as possible at around 12 minutes? (plus trying to get some lings in for early econ damage).
edit: however, note, I am just a platinum scrub ;D
Assuming you are on even economy with your opponent and you go muta and he goes roach, the most standard reactions are
he goes hydra first - you get bane speed - crush his roach hydra push or attack him with muta ling bane if he tries to make infestors after making a first batch of hydras.
he goes infestor first - either swarm hosts or hive tech (ultra or broodlord)
You can also go roach tech after making your first batch of mutas (~8) it just depends on how you want to play, but you should be making your secondary tech choice based on scouting if you plan to play a more muta heavy style
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On February 24 2015 23:27 limbonic wrote:
is there any way to make muta + ling viable against a mid-game roach + hydra rush (~13 minutes)? usually it either ends with me losing most of my econ, but winning the counter (pure luck and lack of scouting from opponent), or I just get crushed before I get to late game with significant melee upgrades + ultras.
should I try mixing in banes or just leave ling/muta be? it's just that it is the far more interesting playstyle imo, but ZvZ is my worst matchup by far.
the most wins I get are if I go 10 pool + early speed. but that feels sooo dirty.
@ Aocowns: (airtoss, early 3rd) hit him with as many hydras as possible at around 12 minutes? (plus trying to get some lings in for early econ damage).
edit: however, note, I am just a platinum scrub ;D
If you are plat, like me, I don't reccomend Mutas, they are too micro intensive. I almost never lose vs Muta play with mass roach.
First attack with pure roach usually damages tthe eco heavily and the follow up with either another mass roach or RH kills.
If you go for Muta in ZvZ, be sure to get spines up / wall off to hold the roaches back long enough for the mutas to do damage to the roaches.
Banes are very good against hydras, but also require micro. if they just crash in the roaches, they won't be effective.
If you really wanna go mutas, I suggest, getting just 8 or so, do some damage to his eco (hard, if he scouted it) and deny the 3rd as long as possible, while getting yours up. Switch to roaches after the first mutas. At least, thats what happened most of the time i lose to muta play
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On February 24 2015 23:27 limbonic wrote:
is there any way to make muta + ling viable against a mid-game roach + hydra rush (~13 minutes)? usually it either ends with me losing most of my econ, but winning the counter (pure luck and lack of scouting from opponent), or I just get crushed before I get to late game with significant melee upgrades + ultras.
should I try mixing in banes or just leave ling/muta be? it's just that it is the far more interesting playstyle imo, but ZvZ is my worst matchup by far.
the most wins I get are if I go 10 pool + early speed. but that feels sooo dirty.
@ Aocowns: (airtoss, early 3rd) hit him with as many hydras as possible at around 12 minutes? (plus trying to get some lings in for early econ damage).
edit: however, note, I am just a platinum scrub ;D
If you grab your Roach Warren + Evo on time (5:45-6:00) you'll be able to hit a Muta player hard economically. From there you can either do a Roach Hydra follow up to kill them off or go for Tunneling Claw Roaches to keep the pressure on. Sooner or later your opponent is gonna crack and run out of money so long as you keep attacking. Be careful of Ling runbies though.
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On February 25 2015 04:10 Running wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2015 14:50 EndOfLineTv wrote:On February 24 2015 12:24 Running wrote:
Asked this before, but still lose every time to 9 pool spine, sometimes its 2 or even three spines, they don't stop at 6 lings keep rallying them, I always lose off 15 hatch and with 15 pool I can kill maybe one of the spines, but one eventually finishes or if i get all the spines they have too many lings, do i just have really bad control? I can't find a good video tutorial of someone defending it. 9 pool double spine is the hard counter to 15 hatch 15pool. If you go for 15 pool 15 hatch. You will see them bring the drones and lings. you will need to cancel your natural hatch, make 2 spines in your main, and pull all but 4 drones. Thanks! where do you place your two spines? And then are you repositioning after they finish building?
It also depends on where your sending your ovies, in ZvZ you can be very direct with them and pretty much send them straight over where a rallying drones will walk across as soon as you see one or two you should pull a drone or two and patrol them on the edge of creep trying to stop them from placing a spine, if they do it's 4 drones to each spine. Since people usually start making the spine before lings arrive. If not you cancel the hatch as said before make two spines in your mineral line or somewhere the mass of drones can stop lings from easily attacking, if worst comes to worst and they have two active spines on the edge of your creep you wait until they re position one and send all your drones ling and queens/spines to attack. If you don't want to make it easy for your opponent also make a spawning pool behind your mineral line, if it's upfront spines can kill it.
The second option and what I prefer to do vs this is let my natural finish, bunch up lings make 1 queen at your natural and send your drones there, you can hold the bottom of the ramp and stop spines from rooting using your defenders advantage to overpower their lings. There was a game sometime back in proleague where this happened had a quick look but can't find it. To follow up after a hold I would probably take a gas and try to win the game with my larva advantage.
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Hi everyone.
Here is the thing. I have several times this build out of terran:
They block your natural with an e-bay (btw, what's the best response in that case?) and expand after that -strangely getting a planetary fortress. The next move is building ravens non stop and expanding when possible. If you're not careful enough they ninja expand. I wasnt able to deny the 3rd and eventually lost. I don't know what the best response is. Getting infestors, sure ... but when? Mutas? I dont think so. I felt really lost in that games. I wish i could attach a replay but i can't find them.
Any ideas? Thx!
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On February 26 2015 06:23 therealkillemall wrote:
Hi everyone.
Here is the thing. I have several times this build out of terran:
They block your natural with an e-bay (btw, what's the best response in that case?) and expand after that -strangely getting a planetary fortress. The next move is building ravens non stop and expanding when possible. If you're not careful enough they ninja expand. I wasnt able to deny the 3rd and eventually lost. I don't know what the best response is. Getting infestors, sure ... but when? Mutas? I dont think so. I felt really lost in that games. I wish i could attach a replay but i can't find them.
Any ideas? Thx!
first of all, when he ebay blocks you attack with one or two drones the scv building the ebay and dont let the ebay finish, when you see him build a planatary fortress on his naturell, just drone harder and then you can kill him with roaches or Muta Ling bane, because you will have way more stuff and kill him before he gets too many Ravens
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Are there any effective early aggression openings vs Protoss anymore?
I haven't played much since HOTS came out, and im not up to date.. in fact I don't know how to deal with spider mines.. but that's something else..
I want to know if there are any effective 1-2 base attacks vs protoss that Zerg can use to catch them off guard. I like playing aggressively, bane bust, roach rush, type stuff. But toss seem impervious early game with their mothership core and nexus defense thing.
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On February 26 2015 10:30 Fairchild wrote:
Are there any effective early aggression openings vs Protoss anymore?
I haven't played much since HOTS came out, and im not up to date.. in fact I don't know how to deal with spider mines.. but that's something else..
I want to know if there are any effective 1-2 base attacks vs protoss that Zerg can use to catch them off guard. I like playing aggressively, bane bust, roach rush, type stuff. But toss seem impervious early game with their mothership core and nexus defense thing.
honestly 1-2basing is technically bad against toss because a good toss will scout a late hatch and immediately know to play safe and stack up forcefields until they're fine against infinite roaches amd lings. but that doesn't mean it's impossible on ladder, your opponents won't be perfect. you can grab an early speed and basically 8 roach rush with mass speedling reinforcements and some toss will underreact or fuck up their micro. but yeah it's not really a good style except on multi spawn maps to metagame greed. abusing the rocks on maps like expedition lost or deadwing helps with cheesy aggression.
if you like being cheesy one thing you can do is pool first into hidden in-base proxy hatch, take a gas as if getting speed but research burrow instead while adding the roach warren, then you start building roaches in his base and spreading out with burrow micro to basically make it impossible to mine until your reinforcements just kill his wall. scarlett did this against parting on overgrowth in an iem or dreamhack, you should be able to find it by searching scarlett vs parting. i don't know her exact build but it's not too hard to figure out. vaani is a great map for this because when toss sees the missing hatch in your natural he has to consider whether it's proxy hatch, either gold base or even a low ground expand, and these possibilities buy your silly cheesy build a lot of time. it's also great to fake a drone going down to the natural and fight the probe for a while to make toss feel like you want to expand and discourage him from poking around his base for hatcheries. again, a calm and proper reaction from toss will kill this build, but that's the nature of 2hatch zerg.
baneling busting is very hard but possible, imo the best scenario to bane bust is if you get cannon rushed or bait a pylon against forge into nexus and delay the cyber core by a lot. deny probe scouts in the main with queens and just gogogo rush banes before he has sentries. don't count on any of these attacks to improve your game or take you to GM, but you'll get some fun quick wins and a lot of nice toss rage if you do them right
edit: oh and i haven't used it much but a nice old allin is 2base queen/hydra nydus, you can check out Life killing Dear with it in the NSSL last night
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On February 26 2015 07:08 DERASTAT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2015 06:23 therealkillemall wrote:
Hi everyone.
Here is the thing. I have several times this build out of terran:
They block your natural with an e-bay (btw, what's the best response in that case?) and expand after that -strangely getting a planetary fortress. The next move is building ravens non stop and expanding when possible. If you're not careful enough they ninja expand. I wasnt able to deny the 3rd and eventually lost. I don't know what the best response is. Getting infestors, sure ... but when? Mutas? I dont think so. I felt really lost in that games. I wish i could attach a replay but i can't find them.
Any ideas? Thx! first of all, when he ebay blocks you attack with one or two drones the scv building the ebay and dont let the ebay finish, when you see him build a planatary fortress on his naturell, just drone harder and then you can kill him with roaches or Muta Ling bane, because you will have way more stuff and kill him before he gets too many Ravens
Ok thx! Im having a lot of trouble against mech also. If the game goes to late game I cannot think a way to win. I am really lost against mech once they have the 3rd expansion and eventually the 4th. Mass raven just seems impossible to beat. Any suggestions? Thx.
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EPT
