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On February 12 2015 16:37 zerge wrote:
Whats your guys opinion on thr 4th base on overgrowth in ZvT? I always have problems spreading creep on the right side of the map. Hence its hard to see/defend pushes towards my 4th when i take the base in the corner. Should i take the base in front of my main instead? I always have more creep there.
I guess i could concentrate more on spreading creep towards the right side, still the distance to cover seems so long. If that doesnt work i could try to speed up the creepspread with overlords and/or hatchery cancel, anyone doing that?
The base closer to the main has the disadvantage of allowing Terran to jet between those bases with a medivac. So if your mutas are out of position, you have to send units to your fourth and your main at the same time, while your third is exposed. Taking the fourth in the bottom right corner seems safer, even if it is harder to creep there.
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On February 12 2015 18:13 lannisport wrote:
Hey guys I'm just wondering if people still use Hyuns 9 min hive build with success? I know several does a similar style and mixes in mutas. I really hate using swarmhosts and prefer an aggressive but safe style.
Also, is there a guide on viper usage? I'm still new to using them so I tend to throw away big engagements at times by say, throwing down blinding clouds and suiciding my army into the toss' army by accident. Versus 3-5 collosus should I always be pulling?
Yes, pull PULL PULL!
The style is still used by many Sh haters.
However, a good protoss will rush out HT to counter the vipers, and then you will just lose... So have a BL or muta switch as an additional follow up.
Typically, the style calls for little, if any evo chamber usage. This will allow you to get more vipers out sooner.
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On February 12 2015 16:37 zerge wrote:
Whats your guys opinion on thr 4th base on overgrowth in ZvT? I always have problems spreading creep on the right side of the map. Hence its hard to see/defend pushes towards my 4th when i take the base in the corner. Should i take the base in front of my main instead? I always have more creep there.
I guess i could concentrate more on spreading creep towards the right side, still the distance to cover seems so long. If that doesnt work i could try to speed up the creepspread with overlords and/or hatchery cancel, anyone doing that?
assuming you are starting on the bottom left corner on overgrowth.
I personally like taking the left side of the map, and spreading my creep in all once direction. I will take their gold as my 5th base, and have my creep at their usual third pretty fast.
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On February 08 2015 00:57 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2015 17:50 HellHound wrote:
Don't react too much to 14/14 it's hilariously easy to defend with gasless.
Can you elaborate on this? I have a hard time holding allins with gasless... I have even had situations where my wall is up and gets broken through with a large amount of bane/speedling. What adjustments should be made to a gasless into roach opener (if you know an allin is coming) both A. before a wall is up and B. after the wall is up and blocked by queens?
a few things to note. if its a 14 14 all in (no nat)
1. bring all queens to the bottom of your ramp, make slow lings, and 2 spines. keep making a spine each min that they don't take a nat.
2. vs a 15p, 15g, 15h, all in Do the same thing, but only make 2 spines, bring all queens to the bottom of the ramp, and only inject the bottom hatch.
3. vs the two base ling bane timing, that hits around 6:30, you need to wall off, Bring all 4 queens together to help block, and make slow lings until you can start making roaches
also, for you to make roaches in time for the 2nd wave of the all in, you need to really start it in the 40-44 supply range, which is around 5:30-5:45 time. To do this you need to have 4 queen and no spine, Or 3 queen and 1 spine, to afford it in time
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On February 13 2015 00:34 EndOfLineTv wrote:
a few things to note. if its a 14 14 all in (no nat)
1. bring all queens to the bottom of your ramp, make slow lings, and 2 spines. keep making a spine each min that they don't take a nat.
2. vs a 15p, 15g, 15h, all in Do the same thing, but only make 2 spines, bring all queens to the bottom of the ramp, and only inject the bottom hatch.
3. vs the two base ling bane timing, that hits around 6:30, you need to wall off, Bring all 4 queens together to help block, and make slow lings until you can start making roaches
also, for you to make roaches in time for the 2nd wave of the all in, you need to really start it in the 40-44 supply range, which is around 5:30-5:45 time. To do this you need to have 4 queen and no spine, Or 3 queen and 1 spine, to afford it in time
How many slow lings do you recommend? Lately I have had a lot more success holding allins, I've been going a few lings initially until I can reliably bring my queens down and my spines go up. My experiences so far tell me I should stop around 6 lings and from there focus on drones, queens, and tech - specifically rallying drones to main, getting gas in main and roach warren while defending with pure queen/spine.
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Can someone help me with the ZvP?
I've problem with the late game. As u can see from the replays, I can defend their 2 base pushes, but the problems start here. They do a transition in a 3 base deathball, and I don't know what to do. If I take a 4 base, they pushes and destroy me. If I stay with 3 bases hive I've no time to tech and they have too much tier 3 agaist my roach hydra composition. Please help me 
http://drop.sc/393854
http://drop.sc/393855
http://drop.sc/393856
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On February 13 2015 08:48 SuperHofmann wrote:Can someone help me with the ZvP? I've problem with the late game. As u can see from the replays, I can defend their 2 base pushes, but the problems start here. They do a transition in a 3 base deathball, and I don't know what to do. If I take a 4 base, they pushes and destroy me. If I stay with 3 bases hive I've no time to tech and they have too much tier 3 agaist my roach hydra composition. Please help me http://drop.sc/393854http://drop.sc/393855http://drop.sc/393856
Just watched first replay... you should listen to your opponent's advice =P Your early-game eco was pretty horrible.
First of all, I absolutely hate 3hatch openers with gas. If you go gas, go 2hatch for awhile, and take your 3rd at 36+ supply (in ZvT, I take mine at 44). You simply cannot spend all your larva when you sac 4 drones worth of mineral econ earlygame going 3hatch. You have 7 idle larva that you can't spend before your queens are even out. It's basically a waste of 300 minerals, and a mining drone, if you go gas early game like that.
Any gateway timing can be handled with later gas, especially vs nexus-first (which is what I think he went this game).
Next was your "transition"... you basically allin'd him after his attack with roach/ling, and you failed to cancel his 3rd (although you could have if you had gone there first). This put you firmly behind. After holding an attack like that, it's much safer to fully saturate 3 base and go for a ling/hydra timing attack with a slight delay before he can get all his infrastructure up. Instead you sacrifice your econ for a few gateway units and an immortal - not worth it.
In the midgame you were on mass hydra when he made an ill-advised attack without colossus that brought you back into the game (though still behind, IMO). Then you go muta, which is not a transition I like at this stage - you want to go muta when you have a strong eco backing it and can build like 25 at once, which typically happens later in the game. Nevertheless you may have been able to make it work, but you attacked on multiple fronts late - if you had moved in with your muta army to his main and hit with ling/hydra at the same time, you may have been able to do good damage.
Still, in this situation, SH, hive tech, or roach/hydra/viper would all have been better choices, with a possible muta transition later. Hydra/muta/corruptor is just not a very good army comp.
Then there was the last main engagement - you went both ultra and BL tech, which I don't particularly like - your eco was not strong enough to support both. The main mistake here, however, was you ENGAGED BEFORE YOUR 6 ULTRAS WERE GOING TO POP. Your army was clearly inferior to his at this stage in the game, and yes you would have had to give up your 3rd, and even your 4th, but if you were to have a hope of killing his army at this point you needed ultra/hydra in a good position.
Lastly your upgrades were pretty poor, especially when going ultras, and in general your T3 tech was very late.
Some possible gameplans are to go ling/hydra into roach/hydra/viper into muta (Jakamakala style) or ling/hydra into viper tech into ultra or some sort of queen/infestor/ultra style (I think soO uses this). Also keep your evos constantly churning as you go into the late game.
And of course there's always swarmhosts =)
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On February 13 2015 00:27 EndOfLineTv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 18:13 lannisport wrote:
Hey guys I'm just wondering if people still use Hyuns 9 min hive build with success? I know several does a similar style and mixes in mutas. I really hate using swarmhosts and prefer an aggressive but safe style.
Also, is there a guide on viper usage? I'm still new to using them so I tend to throw away big engagements at times by say, throwing down blinding clouds and suiciding my army into the toss' army by accident. Versus 3-5 collosus should I always be pulling? Yes, pull PULL PULL! The style is still used by many Sh haters. However, a good protoss will rush out HT to counter the vipers, and then you will just lose... So have a BL or muta switch as an additional follow up. Typically, the style calls for little, if any evo chamber usage. This will allow you to get more vipers out sooner.
I wish there was a more comprehensive guide to this. None of the zergs in iem really did this style so its a bit frustrating to try and adapt it on ladder.
I have a few questions such as how many drones should I have at the 8min and 10 min mark. In total? What do I do vs aggressive blink stalker or two base pushes? Every time I try and switch out of roach long I seem to just die.
What is the end unit comp? Ultra hydra viper?
How about during the midgame. How many roaches vs hydras and or lings vs a ground army and vs a n air and ground army?
And what do I do if they turtle really hard on 3 bases? Should I tech, expand, try to pick off collosus here and there?
And what is the best way to control a roach hydra viper army?sometimes even when I feel like I have a superior army and grab 1 or 2 collosus my roach hydra still get eaten up by blink stalkers and sentries. And this comp seems weak when you're behind.
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On February 13 2015 08:48 SuperHofmann wrote:Can someone help me with the ZvP? I've problem with the late game. As u can see from the replays, I can defend their 2 base pushes, but the problems start here. They do a transition in a 3 base deathball, and I don't know what to do. If I take a 4 base, they pushes and destroy me. If I stay with 3 bases hive I've no time to tech and they have too much tier 3 agaist my roach hydra composition. Please help me http://drop.sc/393854http://drop.sc/393855http://drop.sc/393856
I quickly watched the second replay, and it seems you're generally way too comfortable having less than 16 workers on minerals on your first three bases. You always have to have a specific reason for having undersaturated bases like these, which is usually either you defending a timing attack or doing one yourself. This is probably the issue with your play that you should look at the most. Worker saturation is the basis for everything, after all.
Another small thing: in ZvP, you usually don't make a third queen before taking a third because creep spread isn't as important as having access to more minerals quickly.
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On February 13 2015 08:48 SuperHofmann wrote:Can someone help me with the ZvP? I've problem with the late game. As u can see from the replays, I can defend their 2 base pushes, but the problems start here. They do a transition in a 3 base deathball, and I don't know what to do. If I take a 4 base, they pushes and destroy me. If I stay with 3 bases hive I've no time to tech and they have too much tier 3 agaist my roach hydra composition. Please help me http://drop.sc/393854http://drop.sc/393855http://drop.sc/393856
I watched the third game, you got too far behind in the early game.
First your pool and hatch are 10-15 seconds behind already because of the lost mining time from drone scout and your spammerino. I dont see the reason to go pool first and scout unless you like to do proxy hatch. Either go hatch first and scout or go pool first and scout with a pair of lings if needed.
Then you take your third base at 5:30 which is a great time but your drone count is way too low, usually you should be at 30 drones at this point but you are at 21 because you made a third queen and your early game.
After you take the third you make lings which is again correct but doesnt help much since the protoss is allready way ahaed in econemy.
Conclusion: work on your early game you can not make any mistakes against gateway expand when you go for a fast 3rd base. Dont get a third queen before expand if you go speed, you need to have as many drones as possible creep spread is secondary. In this game if i was you i would have stayed on 2 bases so you can make drones because the 3rd base is of no use whatsoever and just presents another point to attack you for the protoss.
You allready lost at this point but i'm going to comment on the rest of the game anyways. Dont pull all your drones of mining against a single oracle if you allready invested into spores. Then you go lair of one gas, since you allready have spores at each base you should have just concentrated on getting mapcontrol with your remaining lings, making drones and spreading creep. You then go for hive and ultralisks which i find pretty risky, considering you saw his chargelot/templar compostion swarmhost would have been the better and safer choice.
Also my comment on the chat at the end of the game: dont ever go roach hydra viper against what he did and your defense would have been good if you had 10 drones more.
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struggling with marine tank style on expedition lost and secret spring would like some ideas on how to deal with this. i play 1 gas 3 base saturation into ling bling muta but muta's are out too late to deal with tank and the chokes hurt alot.
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On February 13 2015 17:15 lannisport wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 00:27 EndOfLineTv wrote:On February 12 2015 18:13 lannisport wrote:
Hey guys I'm just wondering if people still use Hyuns 9 min hive build with success? I know several does a similar style and mixes in mutas. I really hate using swarmhosts and prefer an aggressive but safe style.
Also, is there a guide on viper usage? I'm still new to using them so I tend to throw away big engagements at times by say, throwing down blinding clouds and suiciding my army into the toss' army by accident. Versus 3-5 collosus should I always be pulling? Yes, pull PULL PULL! The style is still used by many Sh haters. However, a good protoss will rush out HT to counter the vipers, and then you will just lose... So have a BL or muta switch as an additional follow up. Typically, the style calls for little, if any evo chamber usage. This will allow you to get more vipers out sooner. I wish there was a more comprehensive guide to this. None of the zergs in iem really did this style so its a bit frustrating to try and adapt it on ladder. I have a few questions such as how many drones should I have at the 8min and 10 min mark. In total? What do I do vs aggressive blink stalker or two base pushes? Every time I try and switch out of roach long I seem to just die. What is the end unit comp? Ultra hydra viper? How about during the midgame. How many roaches vs hydras and or lings vs a ground army and vs a n air and ground army? And what do I do if they turtle really hard on 3 bases? Should I tech, expand, try to pick off collosus here and there? And what is the best way to control a roach hydra viper army?sometimes even when I feel like I have a superior army and grab 1 or 2 collosus my roach hydra still get eaten up by blink stalkers and sentries. And this comp seems weak when you're behind.
I don't know, but shouldn't end game comp include a couple of investors as well, for the fungal-blinding cloud combo?
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On February 13 2015 17:15 lannisport wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 00:27 EndOfLineTv wrote:On February 12 2015 18:13 lannisport wrote:
Hey guys I'm just wondering if people still use Hyuns 9 min hive build with success? I know several does a similar style and mixes in mutas. I really hate using swarmhosts and prefer an aggressive but safe style.
Also, is there a guide on viper usage? I'm still new to using them so I tend to throw away big engagements at times by say, throwing down blinding clouds and suiciding my army into the toss' army by accident. Versus 3-5 collosus should I always be pulling? Yes, pull PULL PULL! The style is still used by many Sh haters. However, a good protoss will rush out HT to counter the vipers, and then you will just lose... So have a BL or muta switch as an additional follow up. Typically, the style calls for little, if any evo chamber usage. This will allow you to get more vipers out sooner. I wish there was a more comprehensive guide to this. None of the zergs in iem really did this style so its a bit frustrating to try and adapt it on ladder. I have a few questions such as how many drones should I have at the 8min and 10 min mark. In total? What do I do vs aggressive blink stalker or two base pushes? Every time I try and switch out of roach long I seem to just die. What is the end unit comp? Ultra hydra viper? How about during the midgame. How many roaches vs hydras and or lings vs a ground army and vs a n air and ground army? And what do I do if they turtle really hard on 3 bases? Should I tech, expand, try to pick off collosus here and there? And what is the best way to control a roach hydra viper army?sometimes even when I feel like I have a superior army and grab 1 or 2 collosus my roach hydra still get eaten up by blink stalkers and sentries. And this comp seems weak when you're behind.
I used this style quite a lot at the beginning of hots 14 minute roach, hydra and viper max with one upgrade or none. It worked great back then because a lot of people went phoenix into robo and didnt get templar in time. I made a 4th base just for gasses so around 70 drones and follow up with ultralisks, swarmhosts or broodlords to counter the templar. I stopped using it since people got better scouting it and even with a phoenix opener you can get templar out in time. Also like you said its hard to defend the popular sentry blink builds or any aggressive builds for that matter since you need to be quite greedy early and mid game to max out with that kind of tech so quickly.
I think the only things that consistantly work in lategame against toss is passive swarmhosts or basetrade with muta. Ultra, viper, infestor can work as well but is very difficult to pull of when you slip up just a bit in an engaement you're just dead or they start swithcing to air.
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is it possible to get a safe barracks/fact scout on vaani/spring? seems totally impossible to get into range and not die to marine hunting openers. ive had some success going toward the third base on vaani and then poking in, but if they're proactive with the rines they still kill it.
on secret spring i don't see how it's possible at all. it's especially annoying because the far main ramp on both maps is making a lot of terrans open with yolo fast hellions and if you don't identify it you have hellions running in circles around your creep before you can wall. i hate hate hate vetoing anything but i don't see how spring is playable zvt. hard to wall, hard to ovie scout, rock abuse, great for drops, insane third base locations... should i just trash this stinker? reminds me of dreampool
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On February 14 2015 05:53 brickrd wrote:
is it possible to get a safe barracks/fact scout on vaani/spring? seems totally impossible to get into range and not die to marine hunting openers. ive had some success going toward the third base on vaani and then poking in, but if they're proactive with the rines they still kill it.
on secret spring i don't see how it's possible at all. it's especially annoying because the far main ramp on both maps is making a lot of terrans open with yolo fast hellions and if you don't identify it you have hellions running in circles around your creep before you can wall. i hate hate hate vetoing anything but i don't see how spring is playable zvt. hard to wall, hard to ovie scout, rock abuse, great for drops, insane third base locations... should i just trash this stinker? reminds me of dreampool
best way imo is to blindly prepare like its reaper while sending your first ovy to the terran natural area (can confirm reaper/cc first etc by cc timing) and then your second ovy around the map to scout the main later
I made you some pretty pictures
http://imgur.com/ZJvPekH Secret spring
http://imgur.com/EvbmepF Vaani
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On February 14 2015 05:53 brickrd wrote:
is it possible to get a safe barracks/fact scout on vaani/spring? seems totally impossible to get into range and not die to marine hunting openers. ive had some success going toward the third base on vaani and then poking in, but if they're proactive with the rines they still kill it.
on secret spring i don't see how it's possible at all. it's especially annoying because the far main ramp on both maps is making a lot of terrans open with yolo fast hellions and if you don't identify it you have hellions running in circles around your creep before you can wall. i hate hate hate vetoing anything but i don't see how spring is playable zvt. hard to wall, hard to ovie scout, rock abuse, great for drops, insane third base locations... should i just trash this stinker? reminds me of dreampool
I fucking hate both SS and Vaani so I veto both, but I've seen Life use the cliff just below/above the main ramp, I'm guessing you could scout the ramp and then retreat to that cliff in time to save your OL vs marine openers, but not sure.
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ok problem solved pls delte post
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On February 14 2015 07:04 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 05:53 brickrd wrote:
is it possible to get a safe barracks/fact scout on vaani/spring? seems totally impossible to get into range and not die to marine hunting openers. ive had some success going toward the third base on vaani and then poking in, but if they're proactive with the rines they still kill it.
on secret spring i don't see how it's possible at all. it's especially annoying because the far main ramp on both maps is making a lot of terrans open with yolo fast hellions and if you don't identify it you have hellions running in circles around your creep before you can wall. i hate hate hate vetoing anything but i don't see how spring is playable zvt. hard to wall, hard to ovie scout, rock abuse, great for drops, insane third base locations... should i just trash this stinker? reminds me of dreampool I fucking hate both SS and Vaani so I veto both, but I've seen Life use the cliff just below/above the main ramp, I'm guessing you could scout the ramp and then retreat to that cliff in time to save your OL vs marine openers, but not sure.
This is what I do on on Vaani (to give/discuss ideas): let say you spawn bot and the terran is top, what you can do is send the first ovi straight to the ramp, and as soon as you see the barrack or a marine, you back to the cliff. At best the marine will get couple hits, but he won't kill you (unless some building lifting shenanigans!)
Send the second one on the right (just next to your gold), and then up to the little space between his main and expo, which will be your sac ovi. If he opened marine (which you should have seen), you can send your first lings to annoy it so you don't have any risk of a dead 2nd overlord.
I think there should be a way to be coming from behind the third to scout the main instead, but not sure if it is very interesting. I prefer seeing a barrack with either a marine or a reaper getting out asap, than having an early ovi at a better position for latter scout.
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I need help in zvp when I face 7g (I think) and immortals that are transfered there by a warp prism. These mass zealot immortal pushes are totally impossible to hold. My new opening is 3 hatch before pool and then i skip lingspeed in favor of roaches. I've learned how to fend of most 4g and other pushes now, but the followup with zealot immortal seems undo-able to defend vs. There is no way I can have hydras or 40 roaches at this point. What should you really do about this?
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On February 18 2015 07:14 NaboliC wrote:
I need help in zvp when I face 7g (I think) and immortals that are transfered there by a warp prism. These mass zealot immortal pushes are totally impossible to hold. My new opening is 3 hatch before pool and then i skip lingspeed in favor of roaches. I've learned how to fend of most 4g and other pushes now, but the followup with zealot immortal seems undo-able to defend vs. There is no way I can have hydras or 40 roaches at this point. What should you really do about this?
The weakness of this all-in is that it's quite easy to scout: forge, robo, only one gas – it's a very specific setup that isn't good for much else. Get two-base saturation with two or three gases and make roaches. According to PiG, it's more important to limit the zealots' surface area than to kill the immortal (Protoss players who have practiced this build will save their immortals with their warp prism, anyway). So move your roaches to places where zealots can't hit them well, i.e. behind minerals or buildings. If you have some zerglings, they can attack the immortals from behind and tank some shots.
With 3 hatch before pool without zergling speed, you should actually be in the best position to hold this. Maybe you assumed a too high drone saturation?
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EPT
