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On February 01 2015 03:07 Aocowns wrote:
whats optimal response to scouting blink play? I've tried cutting drones at everything from 40-50 but my roach ling just ends up being overrun. If not, both of just keep adding units, but his army is 10x more effective so i just slowly get run down. Do i just boil it down to bad macro or what, cus this feels retarded as fuck to lose to over and over
You can not stay on simple roach ling forever against blink, as your armies grow bigger the stalkers get more and more cost efficient. You should try to transition into roach/hydra. If you're low on gas add in queens, they are generally good against most early allins as they gain value over time.
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On February 03 2015 16:59 velvex wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 07:53 ThePastor wrote:On February 02 2015 03:47 velvex wrote:On February 02 2015 03:15 Defenestrator wrote:On February 02 2015 02:23 velvex wrote:
What would you say is worse in ZvP: opening with gas versus FFE or opening gasless versus gateway expand? I myself would lean towards the former, but I also feel lost when having no speed versus a gateway player. The former by a mile, for some reason speed just doesn't seem necessary to me vs gateway-first anymore (maybe rush distances on maps). I haven't faced a 1-base 4gate in a very long time. Okay, I guess I simply have to make more lings against aggression so that having no speed doesn't matter as much. Thanks for answering! Although it can be frustrating feeling like you get the raw end of the build order list, neither situation is really bad. You can redeem both situations. Gas vs. FFE, go for fast +1 melee upgrade and crush his third/early push out, transition into muta/SH. Gasless vs gateway expand, all goods, drone like an animal and keep an eye on gasses, if you get away with it you are in a huge lead Thanks. Do you know any examples of pro or high-level games for the +1 melee upgrade thing? I don't recall having seen this, so it would be nice to know some details.
Hmmm, I just woke up from a sleep and my brain is not in gear yet, I think I learnt it from life who used to go +1 after speed (not super rushed) into lair +2/+1. I know soulkey did something similar to this against rain game 1 in the semi-finals at IEM Taipei. He ends up switching to roaches and range, but up till that point it is very similar. The nice thing about the build is it gives flexibility to transition into anything.
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ZVZ, when you get 7pooled and they bring two drones and make 2 spines, and you've gone pool, hatch, gas, and you dont see it coming until the lings are nearly at your base is there anyway to defend this? The lings and drones show up at the same time so I can't kill the spines as they are morphing with drones.
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On February 03 2015 23:59 KelsierSC wrote:
How are other zergs spending their vetos
I have inferno, overgrowth and Secret Spring turned off.
I personally don't ban any, I enjoy the challenge of trying to win on each map by being inventive with strategies.
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On February 03 2015 23:56 KelsierSC wrote:
Started drone scouting in ZvP and it has improved my early game quite a lot.
I can safely go hatch first vs a gateway opener.
pool first vs a forge opening
and double expand before pool if I spot the nexus first.
I never used to do it but now I feel less coin flippy.
I have had this discussion with Sc2John in here and he vehemently disagrees with me but I still stand by it. If you are below high masters you can safely early drone scout in every game and the benefit will out way the cost. I asked Artosis about this on his stream and he agreed with me.
Drone scout means you know exactly what he is doing, therefore you can react appropriately. You are better off having correct information and reacting accordingly, then having a small amount of extra resources and reacting to misinformation. For me, I hate dying to something I did not realise was coming. Yes, you can scout and account for most things without drone scouting. However, when you are learning it is better to scout early and know what is happening, over time you will learn by playing and watching pros what to look out for in order to not scout. I have just started playing again after a 13 week hiatus, I was masters in KR, and I have decided now that I am playing again that I will drone scout in every match up, why? Because I want to be able to practice my reactions and mechanics. Are you going to learn proper reactions by reacting late or early? Some argue that you should just learn by doing it exactly as the pros do it from the beginning and there is some validity to that, but personally I would rather leave that till when my skills are much higher then they are currently.
Plus, it is really satisfying when you scout cheesers and then destroy them!
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On February 03 2015 17:42 grimAuxiliatrix wrote:
I'm returning to the game (have been gone since 2012), and just got HotS. The builds on the Liquidpedia strategy portal seem to be a bit dated, so I'm wondering what the state of the matchup is in each of ZvP, ZvT and ZvZ. Naming the staple builds would help, but any links to other sources would be great as well. Thanks!
These are not written by me. Credit to the front of this post under the questions section for the ZvZ and ZvP. The ZvT build is one lowko did.
"Safe Roach Opener" ZvZ by Violet
9 Overlord
15 Pool
16 Hatch
15 Overlord
15 Queen + Gas
*Ling scout
Queen (3:50)
Speed (4:15)
Baneling Nest (5:00)
Lingxx3 (5:30)
Lingxx3 (6:10)
Lair (6:20)
Evo chamber (6:45)
Gasx3 (7:00)
Roach Warren (7:15)
+1 Ranged (7:45)
Roach Speed (8:10)
ZvP
15p16h 15ovie, queen+ling when pool finishes, make a drone and rally it to 3rd to take it.
6:00 – 2 gases
6:30 ~ 7 minutes – a roach warren (this is up to you on when to get this)
First 100 gas - start lair, then 3&4th gas + evolution chamber(optional) to get upgrades
Next 100 gas - ling speed
Lair finishes – get roach speed
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery
16 Spawning pool
17 Overlord
ZvT
You scout (with overlord) a natural command center going down around 3:10 (1 barracks expand) or it's already finished (CC first).
@Spawning pool: Double Queen
Drone drone drone
25 Overlord
Drone drone drone
Queue up 3rd + 4th Queen
Drone drone drone
5:00 Double Gas Geyser
@100 Gas: Zergling Speed
~6:20 3rd Base
@100 Gas: Double evolution chamber
@250 Gas: +1 Melee +1 Armor upgrades + 3rd + 4th Gas
@100 Gas: Lair + Baneling nest + 5th Queen
!! At this point it becomes very game specific !!
Drone up 3rd Base + Take a macro hatchery + Take 5th + 6th Gas Geyser
@Lair: Baneling Speed + Infestation Pit + 4th Base
Make a few Zerglings to morph in Banelings IF necissary
Pathogen Glands
+2 Melee +2 Armor upgrades
~11:30 Spire + Hive
@Hive: Greater spire +3 Melee +3 Armor + Adrenal Glands
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On February 04 2015 11:37 Running wrote:
ZVZ, when you get 7pooled and they bring two drones and make 2 spines, and you've gone pool, hatch, gas, and you dont see it coming until the lings are nearly at your base is there anyway to defend this? The lings and drones show up at the same time so I can't kill the spines as they are morphing with drones.
The basic theory is, 4 drones on each spine. use the rest of your drones to engage but not fight, what I mean is you attack and as soon as the opponent starts fighting you run away. Ultimately your number one job is to stop spines getting up and delaying. If you can delay while stopping spines going up when your pool finishes you win.
I have honestly not faced this in I cannot remember how long, sorry if this is not helpful. Check out this old guide a lot of the advice will help.
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On February 04 2015 12:10 ThePastor wrote:The basic theory is, 4 drones on each spine. use the rest of your drones to engage but not fight, what I mean is you attack and as soon as the opponent starts fighting you run away. Ultimately your number one job is to stop spines getting up and delaying. If you can delay while stopping spines going up when your pool finishes you win. I have honestly not faced this in I cannot remember how long, sorry if this is not helpful. Check out this old guide a lot of the advice will help.
This guide says, to cancel your natural, sneak out a drone to build a spine in his main, and then when the lings and spines get to your base mineral walk them to his base and base trade him.
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On February 04 2015 12:21 Running wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 12:10 ThePastor wrote:The basic theory is, 4 drones on each spine. use the rest of your drones to engage but not fight, what I mean is you attack and as soon as the opponent starts fighting you run away. Ultimately your number one job is to stop spines getting up and delaying. If you can delay while stopping spines going up when your pool finishes you win. I have honestly not faced this in I cannot remember how long, sorry if this is not helpful. Check out this old guide a lot of the advice will help. This guide says, to cancel your natural, sneak out a drone to build a spine in his main, and then when the lings and spines get to your base mineral walk them to his base and base trade him.
The guide will not correspond with your situation as it is dealing with 6/7 pools when you hatch first. However, I linked it because I thought the micro techniques and stuff on there may be very helpful. I should have explained further, sorry. When I was first trying to skill up a few years back I found it exceptionally helpful.
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On February 04 2015 11:58 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 23:56 KelsierSC wrote:
Started drone scouting in ZvP and it has improved my early game quite a lot.
I can safely go hatch first vs a gateway opener.
pool first vs a forge opening
and double expand before pool if I spot the nexus first.
I never used to do it but now I feel less coin flippy.
I have had this discussion with Sc2John in here and he vehemently disagrees with me but I still stand by it. If you are below high masters you can safely early drone scout in every game and the benefit will out way the cost. I asked Artosis about this on his stream and he agreed with me. Drone scout means you know exactly what he is doing, therefore you can react appropriately. You are better off having correct information and reacting accordingly, then having a small amount of extra resources and reacting to misinformation. For me, I hate dying to something I did not realise was coming. Yes, you can scout and account for most things without drone scouting. However, when you are learning it is better to scout early and know what is happening, over time you will learn by playing and watching pros what to look out for in order to not scout. I have just started playing again after a 13 week hiatus, I was masters in KR, and I have decided now that I am playing again that I will drone scout in every match up, why? Because I want to be able to practice my reactions and mechanics. Are you going to learn proper reactions by reacting late or early? Some argue that you should just learn by doing it exactly as the pros do it from the beginning and there is some validity to that, but personally I would rather leave that till when my skills are much higher then they are currently. Plus, it is really satisfying when you scout cheesers and then destroy them!
What most people forget is that pros do metagame each other the whole time, exactly copying what they do will be not optimal for ladder (fortunatly).
However drone scouting in zvz is useless in my opinion unless its a 4 player map, your scout is too late to react to anything and everything else can be scouted with your overlord and a pair of lings. If you scout so early to go hatch first reactivly you might as well gone pool first and still have a better econemy.
In ZvT i guess you can scout around your side of the map for proxy rax or scout his main which could help against the rare factory before cc builds however you have lost a lot of mining time so holding a 2 rax will be hard as well. I personally would prefer going pool first if i want to be safe, the econemy is not much worse than hatch first (no scout) and the earlier queen helps against reaper, also you can sneak around lings to harass his scv.
I started drone scouting at 13 supply (11/12th drone) in ZvP and it is working great however the drone is doing much more than scouting his build, it can become a proxy hatchery in response to nexus first/cannon rush. I go hatchery first and i dont remember the last time i lost to a cannon rusher. Its probably also that most cannon rushers in diamond/low master are bad but i know it works at a much higher level as well from watching catz' stream.
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If you drone scout in ZvZ things can definitely happen reactively.
On most 2 player maps you get there before they place their hatch first down, you can block it and significantly delay it.
If you scout 15 pool you can play a big greedier.
If you scout first you should always be assuming placing a hatch first for yourself, if you get there and find an early pool you can cancel natural instantly and put a pool down and defend pretty much everything with good micro.
In ZvT you gain less as you say, effectively it is a proxy check, but you can do several other things. Hatch block natural if they CC first, harrass SCV's building barracks/CC/fact, check for gas timings etc.
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On February 04 2015 17:51 ThePastor wrote:
If you drone scout in ZvZ things can definitely happen reactively.
On most 2 player maps you get there before they place their hatch first down, you can block it and significantly delay it.
If you scout 15 pool you can play a big greedier.
If you scout first you should always be assuming placing a hatch first for yourself, if you get there and find an early pool you can cancel natural instantly and put a pool down and defend pretty much everything with good micro.
In ZvT you gain less as you say, effectively it is a proxy check, but you can do several other things. Hatch block natural if they CC first, harrass SCV's building barracks/CC/fact, check for gas timings etc.
Or hatch-block the factory reactor swap. :D
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On February 04 2015 17:51 ThePastor wrote:
If you drone scout in ZvZ things can definitely happen reactively.
On most 2 player maps you get there before they place their hatch first down, you can block it and significantly delay it.
If you scout 15 pool you can play a big greedier.
If you scout first you should always be assuming placing a hatch first for yourself, if you get there and find an early pool you can cancel natural instantly and put a pool down and defend pretty much everything with good micro.
In ZvT you gain less as you say, effectively it is a proxy check, but you can do several other things. Hatch block natural if they CC first, harrass SCV's building barracks/CC/fact, check for gas timings etc.
If you are going hatch first in zvz I don't think you need to drone scout,
you delay a hatchery? ok well you lost minerals with your drone scout so that is just even.
you can play greedier against 15p, you are ahead of 15p anyway and all you do is make up for the lost minerals.
if it is an early pool your OL will spot the lings/no hatchery/late second OL so you don't need the drone scout.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
I think ZvT is the most important drone scouting matchup as you can harass a CC first, and you can check the gas timing to let you know if it is reaper, plus you can check for proxies that can just instantly lose you the game.
in order of most importance for drone scouting i'd go
ZvT
ZvP
ZvZ
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On February 04 2015 17:51 ThePastor wrote:
If you drone scout in ZvZ things can definitely happen reactively.
On most 2 player maps you get there before they place their hatch first down, you can block it and significantly delay it.
If you scout 15 pool you can play a big greedier.
If you scout first you should always be assuming placing a hatch first for yourself, if you get there and find an early pool you can cancel natural instantly and put a pool down and defend pretty much everything with good micro.
In ZvT you gain less as you say, effectively it is a proxy check, but you can do several other things. Hatch block natural if they CC first, harrass SCV's building barracks/CC/fact, check for gas timings etc.
In my experience of being a cheesy fucker drone scouting is detrimental in zvz, period.
The pool get's delayed a bit which makes it very difficult to transition into a normal expansion, you can go gas/ pool with a drone scout I guess to counter a 9 pool if you scout it but the lings can get in and deny some mining to make it a bit closer due to how late the pool is, biggest issue is the 9 pool can get an expo before gas in respone and spine it up and block it with a queen so you can't counter properly. (this is all assuming you are playing vs 9 pool,obviously drone scouts are even worse vs anything else for similair reasons :D)
It just never seems to work out well for people who drone scout vs my 9 pools :D
And on some maps if you go pool first vs drone scout you can make 6 lings in response and do some damage (cause pool delayed anyway without mentioning scouting pool first might make them delay it even more)
In ZvT It can be quite useful but I don't find it having a notable effect on most of my games. I find it very useful in zvp due to being able to scout where toss is ( on 3+ player maps to optimize your overlord pathing), which gasses and when he takes them (again so you can position your ovies to more easily scout the gasses he didn't take), and you can respond to cannon rushes in several ways (proxy hatch in base, proxy hatch in nat, just take your third and don't give a shit etc see it coming early and just go for a safe pool first while blocking nexus ,etc.)
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On February 04 2015 12:00 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 17:42 grimAuxiliatrix wrote:
I'm returning to the game (have been gone since 2012), and just got HotS. The builds on the Liquidpedia strategy portal seem to be a bit dated, so I'm wondering what the state of the matchup is in each of ZvP, ZvT and ZvZ. Naming the staple builds would help, but any links to other sources would be great as well. Thanks! These are not written by me. Credit to the front of this post under the questions section for the ZvZ and ZvP. The ZvT build is one lowko did. "Safe Roach Opener" ZvZ by Violet9 Overlord 15 Pool 16 Hatch 15 Overlord 15 Queen + Gas *Ling scout Queen (3:50) Speed (4:15) Baneling Nest (5:00) Lingxx3 (5:30) Lingxx3 (6:10) Lair (6:20) Evo chamber (6:45) Gasx3 (7:00) Roach Warren (7:15) +1 Ranged (7:45) Roach Speed (8:10) ZvP15p16h 15ovie, queen+ling when pool finishes, make a drone and rally it to 3rd to take it. 6:00 – 2 gases 6:30 ~ 7 minutes – a roach warren (this is up to you on when to get this) First 100 gas - start lair, then 3&4th gas + evolution chamber(optional) to get upgrades Next 100 gas - ling speed Lair finishes – get roach speed 9 Overlord 15 Hatchery 16 Spawning pool 17 Overlord ZvTYou scout (with overlord) a natural command center going down around 3:10 (1 barracks expand) or it's already finished (CC first). @Spawning pool: Double Queen Drone drone drone 25 Overlord Drone drone drone Queue up 3rd + 4th Queen Drone drone drone 5:00 Double Gas Geyser @100 Gas: Zergling Speed ~6:20 3rd Base @100 Gas: Double evolution chamber @250 Gas: +1 Melee +1 Armor upgrades + 3rd + 4th Gas @100 Gas: Lair + Baneling nest + 5th Queen !! At this point it becomes very game specific !! Drone up 3rd Base + Take a macro hatchery + Take 5th + 6th Gas Geyser @Lair: Baneling Speed + Infestation Pit + 4th Base Make a few Zerglings to morph in Banelings IF necissary Pathogen Glands +2 Melee +2 Armor upgrades ~11:30 Spire + Hive @Hive: Greater spire +3 Melee +3 Armor + Adrenal Glands
Thanks for this - much better than my answer, and that's what I was hoping for!
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I drone scout the cross spawn on 4-position maps.
Someone (maybe Idra?) once said if drone scouting won't change your build, don't do it. I also think that much of the time your initial overlords will get the info you need. For me, in 2-position maps, that means:
- no drone scout in ZvZ (overlords do the job)
- same for ZvP (I rarely change my build, plus overlords scout cannon rush. I sometimes drone scout my own nat briefly if I think I'll be cheesed hard)
- Yes, drone scout in ZvT
I'm too low a league for the lost economy to matter too much, I think. If I get to diamond I'll reconsider.
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I respect all comments regarding the scouting, as I said when I first mentioned it many people disagree with me. My reasoning is pretty simple, my theory is, if I know what my opponent is doing I will beat him. By will beat him obviously I do not mean guaranteed, but that is my mind set going in.
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On February 05 2015 10:22 ThePastor wrote:
I respect all comments regarding the scouting, as I said when I first mentioned it many people disagree with me. My reasoning is pretty simple, my theory is, if I know what my opponent is doing I will beat him. By will beat him obviously I do not mean guaranteed, but that is my mind set going in.
Drone scouting in zvp still works at the top 100 gm lvl. Carry on brother. ^_^
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On February 05 2015 10:22 ThePastor wrote:
I respect all comments regarding the scouting, as I said when I first mentioned it many people disagree with me. My reasoning is pretty simple, my theory is, if I know what my opponent is doing I will beat him. By will beat him obviously I do not mean guaranteed, but that is my mind set going in.
While I admit I've never done the math for it, if you want to play "safe" in ZvZ it would be better to just 15 pool or 15 hatch 14 pool. Going along with your theory that if you know what your opponent is doing you will beat him, what builds do you feel like you won't be able to scout properly without drone scouting?
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EPT
