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On October 06 2014 23:38 Argoneus wrote:
@ BuiBui & Meavis: thanks for the insight, we are ZT. so basically the idea is to go for very aggressive builds from the beginning, and then just support my T with w/e is needed?
ZT the zerg almost always has to go 10p, save for against TT or ZT if you're greedy.
ZT vs ZZ
go for a 10pool build, this is neccesary to defend yourself against double early pools, and allows you to hit them back later with hellionling, muta's are great when you can pull it off, especialy with either defensive mech or gas feed from bio terran.
ZT vs ZT
theres a possibility of lingreaper, but if you can hold hellionling triumphs this style, it's mostly a ZvZ and TvT in one but the zerg has to worry about hellions and the terran about ling runby's
ZT vs ZP
lot's of potential to do early damage with hellion ling or lingrauder, in the midgame bio/muta is really strong for its combined harras potential.
ZT vs TT
this one can be quite problematic, but swarmhost/muta along with your terran buddy ready to break the lines should do great, a lot of this depends on pinning them down with muta's
ZT vs TP
I'm not sure about lower teams but the higher ranked teams play mostly skytoss/mech, it's a pretty hard MU for ZT, you're pretty reliant on pulling them apart with mobility, muta's are a risk but sometimes work
ZT vs PP
pretty easy if you can pin them down, the problem is in the lategame where toss deathball becomes problematic, also some things I've seen are cannonrush/2gate/DT into 8gate feed, make sure you have only 1 player commited on defending or your tech is gonna be to far behind to deal with 8gate in time.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 06 2014 23:38 Argoneus wrote:
@ BuiBui & Meavis: thanks for the insight, we are ZT. so basically the idea is to go for very aggressive builds from the beginning, and then just support my T with w/e is needed?
In general, 2v2s are MUCH more aggressive than 1v1s. ZT is the best combination purely because hellions and lings (cars n dogs) trumps literally every other composition in the game in terms of map control at that time (6:00-8:00). I highly suggest opening with 14/14 + gas first hellions and taking expansions as you gain map control. Beyond this, dealing with invisible stuff is fairly safe, as Terran can usually switch into a raven or an ebay from here or Zerg can get up spores/fast lair. Dealing with counterpressure is usually pretty easy because of the early map control and economy you can secure behind it.
Transitioning into the mid/late game, I find that either roach/hydra + bio or muta/ling + mech works fairly nicely. You definitely don't want to go muta/ling unless your opponent can hold ground versus two armies by themselves, and, in general, roach/hydra is just stronger in team games. In the latter stages of the game, you can make the switch over to a more immobile SH/corruptor/viper army, but I tend away from transitioning directly into that because you lose a lot of the map control you secured earlier on.
In short: be aggressive, take bases more slowly, and build very marginal advantages throughout the game. Masters 2s advice.
On October 06 2014 23:59 LordYama wrote:
In an ideal macro game where my macro is spot on and I am not getting supply blocked by the opponent killing overlords, how much time supply blocked should I be seeing in my final stats? Even correctly executed builds have a little bit of supply block time, such as waiting for the overlord to finish at supply count of 10 at the beginning.
Is under a minute reasonable? 30 seconds-ish?
Under a minute is about the standard time. There are some supply blocks you obviously can't avoid in the early game (28/28 very clearly resonates with me), so you're going to be building up some of that time either way. But overall, it doesn't matter too much unless your time supply blocked is getting close to 2:00 or above because that means you got hard supply blocked more than once for sure.
More importantly, just skim over a few replays and watch ONLY your supply and when you make overlords and note what you were doing when you forgot to make overlords. Over a few viewings, you'll see some patterns start to emerge and then you can figure out how to fix it from there.
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On October 06 2014 23:59 LordYama wrote:
In an ideal macro game where my macro is spot on and I am not getting supply blocked by the opponent killing overlords, how much time supply blocked should I be seeing in my final stats? Even correctly executed builds have a little bit of supply block time, such as waiting for the overlord to finish at supply count of 10 at the beginning.
Is under a minute reasonable? 30 seconds-ish?
Time can be kind of irrelevant. The first final that soO lost came down to a single supply block on the last match. He went into ultra tech and as Zests push came he held down the ultra hotkey and built 1 then got massively supply blocked. He died before he got his units out.
What I tend to do is just blast through the replay as John said and check for times capped, consider whether it is a hard or soft cap.
Hardcap = capped with no overlords building
Softcap = capped with overlords on the way.
First focus should be on cutting the hard caps out. Soft caps are bad but not massively traumatic.
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On October 06 2014 23:59 LordYama wrote:
In an ideal macro game where my macro is spot on and I am not getting supply blocked by the opponent killing overlords, how much time supply blocked should I be seeing in my final stats? Even correctly executed builds have a little bit of supply block time, such as waiting for the overlord to finish at supply count of 10 at the beginning.
Is under a minute reasonable? 30 seconds-ish?
It's quite hard to tell how bad you got supply blocked during a game by just looking at the "time supply blocked", since as you say you'll be intentionally supply blocked at times.
After looking through some of my games for standard games where I didn't get unintentionally supply blocked I got these numbers:
ZvZ: 45 sec
ZvP: 1 min 10 sec
ZvT: 1 min 45 sec
This "stat" is quite useless tho since as zerg you want to get supply blocked or very close to it almost every macro cycle. Also, in some cycles you might have a few free supply, and in some you might get completely capped depending on how the games go, so it can vary quite a lot, and just because you got more "time supply blocked" one game doesn't mean you played worse that game.
You really have to look at every specific game and check for times you're getting unintentionally supply blocked.
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Thanks for the advice all. I do realize it's situational because I can see where if you scout, say, an early marauder/hellion all in coming you will be increasing your chances of winning by squeezing out every unit possible to meet it and you will be in better shape hitting a supply cap there but surviving the attack in good shape than making an extra overlord or two that could be a bunch of lings, and taking critical or game ending damage.
Another question that I asked on the "simple questions/answers" thread: Is there any arcade or custom map that helps train minimap awareness specifically? This is definitely a huge weak spot in my game, even when I place overlords on drop routes, I usually miss them inbound and on the replay I see where they clearly went by my overlords and I could have seen it and responded earlier. Finally for the first time yesterday I caught one that my scouts saw way early on the other side of the map, intercepted it midway and killed three medivacs full of infantry for free, it was a great feeling. Not sure what was different about that one than others, although I had more than one overlord on that route so I had plenty of opportunity to spot it. In the same game I missed a drop later (also went by my overlord on the edge of the map) but I was ahead enough that it didn't matter by then.
(I realize that good players can make an early viking and cause me grief and supply caps, but in my low metal leagues the passive info from overlord scouting wins me a lot more games than getting sniped loses me.)
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United States4883 Posts
On October 07 2014 04:23 LordYama wrote:
Thanks for the advice all. I do realize it's situational because I can see where if you scout, say, an early marauder/hellion all in coming you will be increasing your chances of winning by squeezing out every unit possible to meet it and you will be in better shape hitting a supply cap there but surviving the attack in good shape than making an extra overlord or two that could be a bunch of lings, and taking critical or game ending damage.
Another question that I asked on the "simple questions/answers" thread: Is there any arcade or custom map that helps train minimap awareness specifically? This is definitely a huge weak spot in my game, even when I place overlords on drop routes, I usually miss them inbound and on the replay I see where they clearly went by my overlords and I could have seen it and responded earlier. Finally for the first time yesterday I caught one that my scouts saw way early on the other side of the map, intercepted it midway and killed three medivacs full of infantry for free, it was a great feeling. Not sure what was different about that one than others, although I had more than one overlord on that route so I had plenty of opportunity to spot it. In the same game I missed a drop later (also went by my overlord on the edge of the map) but I was ahead enough that it didn't matter by then.
(I realize that good players can make an early viking and cause me grief and supply caps, but in my low metal leagues the passive info from overlord scouting wins me a lot more games than getting sniped loses me.)
Search "inject" in arcade and "Zerg Inject and Creep Spread" map will pop up. Just focus on your macro cycle while moving around 1-2 different groups of lings. I generally have them run to about the halfway point of each lane then change to the next one. This helps with minimap awareness because you're constantly having to check on the zerglings and their positioning while still doing your inject cycle and not missing a beat. The overall idea is that the zerglings never stop moving and your injecting never stops. Start with one group, then once you feel confident that you're doing everything quickly and efficiently, try two groups. If you can get that down super efficiently, it's possible to add on a 3rd group of something like mutalisks flying from hatchery to hatchery or something like that, but it's not overly necessary to train more than just two groups of lings.
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Northern Ireland281 Posts
was there a talk about roach/hydra vs muta/ling in zvz?
I ended up in a long old game today, couldnt get the muta cloud down and ended up losing, but was a close thing. do i just add infestors?
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Anyone is having success in ZvT witht he Soulkey +1/+1 roach timing build?
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How do I respond to the 8 marine drop in natural, hellion runby in main, my scouting gets denied by marines and I can't tell if or when its coming.
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anyone got any tips for working on injects?
i used to just practice macro in an ai game or vs no opponent and used to get up to like 80-90% injects but whenever i go into a proper game ( mainly zvt tbh) my injects sometimes drop as low as 50-60 %
this is mainly a problem in zvt because obviously lingbane is really larva heavy and you still need to be microing in fights ( unlike zvz roach wars etc)
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On October 07 2014 22:39 Enigmasc wrote:
anyone got any tips for working on injects?
i used to just practice macro in an ai game or vs no opponent and used to get up to like 80-90% injects but whenever i go into a proper game ( mainly zvt tbh) my injects sometimes drop as low as 50-60 %
this is mainly a problem in zvt because obviously lingbane is really larva heavy and you still need to be microing in fights ( unlike zvz roach wars etc)
The guys at GGTracker did an analysis on injects a while back. It's an interesting read http://ggtracker.com/injects but the gist is that in all levels inject percentage go down as games get longer. The theory being that injects matter the most in the early game and less so in the later stages as your number of hatcheries increase. So one takeaway from that is you should focus your practice on the first 10 min or so as that is the time you need close to perfect injects, and practicing long 20-30 min games don't necessarily correspond to greater success.
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On October 08 2014 00:15 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 22:39 Enigmasc wrote:
anyone got any tips for working on injects?
i used to just practice macro in an ai game or vs no opponent and used to get up to like 80-90% injects but whenever i go into a proper game ( mainly zvt tbh) my injects sometimes drop as low as 50-60 %
this is mainly a problem in zvt because obviously lingbane is really larva heavy and you still need to be microing in fights ( unlike zvz roach wars etc)
The guys at GGTracker did an analysis on injects a while back. It's an interesting read http://ggtracker.com/injects but the gist is that in all levels inject percentage go down as games get longer. The theory being that injects matter the most in the early game and less so in the later stages as your number of hatcheries increase. So one takeaway from that is you should focus your practice on the first 10 min or so as that is the time you need close to perfect injects, and practicing long 20-30 min games don't necessarily correspond to greater success.
Yeah, even before that article came out I uploaded some games from top progamer Zergs (like Life) onto GGTracker and was surprised to find that in a long macro game their inject percentage was not that much better than mine which led me to the conclusion that the article states, that it's of critical importance to hit all injects early but not so much in late game. I think in a later game, making sure to take good engagements, micro and army control and positioning, take equal importance if not more, if you start losing bases because of bad engagements then 100% injects will still not win the game.
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Just lost to 8/8/8/8 2 rax reapers "behind" my base on king sejong... I even drone scouted for regular proxy rax, which of course was entirely useless. Any hope of holding that if you go 15h/16p or 15h/15p?
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What to do against ZvT -> mech: Tanks (vs. SH) Viking (vs. Mutas, Viper) Raven (vs. Everything) ?
My replay: http://drop.sc/387155
Note: The last fight I took (and lost) with the Mutas was some kind of "yolo-i can't win this anyway".
I just don't see any possibility to do something against this. Terran just leans back, doing nothing special, and just wait.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 07 2014 06:46 Tzyx wrote:
was there a talk about roach/hydra vs muta/ling in zvz?
I ended up in a long old game today, couldnt get the muta cloud down and ended up losing, but was a close thing. do i just add infestors?
I honestly hate playing against mutas now, but the best solution I've found is using a roach attack to secure 3rd base + economy, then defending against mutas with ~6 queens/infestors and a handful of spores (3-4 max). After you get ~6 infestors, switch into hydras and tack on roaches to max out. The entire time, make sure you're threatening attacks or counterattacking with roaches every time the mutas are out of position.
On October 07 2014 12:11 Dynamitekid wrote:
Anyone is having success in ZvT witht he Soulkey +1/+1 roach timing build?
I'm not aware of the "Soulkey" roach build, but if you are referring to the 3-base +1/+1 attack popularized by HyuN, then yeah, 100% success on Merry Go Round. It's simply impossible for Terran to cover that much ground, even with a tank or two.
On October 07 2014 14:25 Running wrote:
How do I respond to the 8 marine drop in natural, hellion runby in main, my scouting gets denied by marines and I can't tell if or when its coming.
You should be poking around 6:00 with an overlord to look for a 3rd CC. If you don't see one down by 6:00 and/or your opponent is really actively trying to hunt down overlords, you should be dropping a roach warren or baneling nest at 6:30 with your evos. From here, it's just trying to figure out if it's a drop or hellion/banshee, which shouldn't be too hard if you have good overlord spread and you're counting marines/hellions with pokes.
To be honest, if you're completely surprised, just pull your drones and defend the hellions then deal with the drop...worst case scenario is that your hatchery loses half health.
On October 07 2014 22:39 Enigmasc wrote:
anyone got any tips for working on injects?
i used to just practice macro in an ai game or vs no opponent and used to get up to like 80-90% injects but whenever i go into a proper game ( mainly zvt tbh) my injects sometimes drop as low as 50-60 %
this is mainly a problem in zvt because obviously lingbane is really larva heavy and you still need to be microing in fights ( unlike zvz roach wars etc)
Please read a page or two back before posting!!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/402752-the-hots-zerg-help-me-thread?page=208#4146
Best way to ensure that you never have trouble injecting during fights is to force yourself to think about injecting whenever you're attacking and just look away from your army right after you engage. You'll lose a few times due to bad positioning or something like that, but after a while, it'll start to stick and get more fluid.
On October 08 2014 02:25 iaretehnoob wrote:
Just lost to 8/8/8/8 2 rax reapers "behind" my base on king sejong... I even drone scouted for regular proxy rax, which of course was entirely useless. Any hope of holding that if you go 15h/16p or 15h/15p?
Just use drones to defend until you have lings, lings to defend until you have queens, and then just get zergling speed. 2 spines in each mineral line if necessary. Assuming you didn't lose a massive amount of drones early on, you should be able to stabilize and defend the reapers just fine with speedlings.
Alternately, if you see the rax going up, you can actually cancel the hatch, go proxy hatch in your opponent's natural, and spine up your main.
On October 09 2014 00:59 DrBrundle wrote:What to do against ZvT -> mech: Tanks (vs. SH) Viking (vs. Mutas, Viper) Raven (vs. Everything) ? My replay: http://drop.sc/387155Note: The last fight I took (and lost) with the Mutas was some kind of "yolo-i can't win this anyway". I just don't see any possibility to do something against this. Terran just leans back, doing nothing special, and just wait.
Please read a page or two back before posting a question that's already been answered!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/402752-the-hots-zerg-help-me-thread?page=205#4099
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eh, I'm pretty much fed up with ZvZ at the moment - can anyone recommend me some good all-ins for this match-up? I don't want to do a 9-pool or something like that, since it's not really an all-in
I remember the ~6:00 ling flood and a 10 pool bane
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On October 09 2014 03:14 Alchemik wrote:
eh, I'm pretty much fed up with ZvZ at the moment - can anyone recommend me some good all-ins for this match-up? I don't want to do a 9-pool or something like that, since it's not really an all-in
I remember the ~6:00 ling flood and a 10 pool bane
my go-to zvz allin for 3p maps or if i feel like skipping the matchup is the miniraser build he used to beat snute in wcs eu
15g
14p
14h (if you micro your workers you should be able to make your hatch look like a standard 15p/15h to an overlord scout, which is basically the point of this build, but you dont absolutely need the worker micro - it just makes the illusion that much better)
@100g ling speed and stop mining gas
3x pairs of lings
16 overlord
2x pairs of lings
18 queen
lings and overlords
pull back/kite away when your opponent's first round of defensive lings pops and engage again as your second wave hits, if you take a stupid fight then suddenly you just have fewer lings and less economy so you pretty much already lose.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 09 2014 03:38 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:14 Alchemik wrote:
eh, I'm pretty much fed up with ZvZ at the moment - can anyone recommend me some good all-ins for this match-up? I don't want to do a 9-pool or something like that, since it's not really an all-in
I remember the ~6:00 ling flood and a 10 pool bane my go-to zvz allin for 3p maps or if i feel like skipping the matchup is the miniraser build he used to beat snute in wcs eu 15g 14p 14h (if you micro your workers you should be able to make your hatch look like a standard 15p/15h to an overlord scout, which is basically the point of this build, but you dont absolutely need the worker micro - it just makes the illusion that much better) @100g ling speed and stop mining gas 3x pairs of lings 16 overlord 2x pairs of lings 18 queen lings and overlords pull back/kite away when your opponent's first round of defensive lings pops and engage again as your second wave hits, if you take a stupid fight then suddenly you just have fewer lings and less economy so you pretty much already lose.
Any pre-lair timing is really strong. For instance, you can do a roach/bane all-in that hits around 9:00, just before lair units are starting to get produced. You can also do a ling/speedbane attack that hits at about the same time. Overall, anything that hits between 7:30-9:00 is really REALLY strong in ZvZ, especially since it's so hard to scout other than checking gases.
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Well, I tried SH/Mutas and Nydus play vs. mass mech (raven/tanks/viking/thor) and it does not work.
Replay: http://drop.sc/387200
League: Top diamond
I played not very well, because it's the first time I try this style, following the advice some pages before. But seriously, how can this actually work? What did I do very much wrong?
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On October 09 2014 22:31 DrBrundle wrote:Well, I tried SH/Mutas and Nydus play vs. mass mech (raven/tanks/viking/thor) and it does not work. Replay: http://drop.sc/387200League: Top diamond I played not very well, because it's the first time I try this style, following the advice some pages before. But seriously, how can this actually work? What did I do very much wrong?
I didn't play well, this is the first time I try this style...
Might I suggest you look at the replay yourself first, before you go in the internet looking for answers. It seems reasonably obvious to me... Finding it out for yourself is more helpful if you want to learn a style.
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EPT
