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On October 09 2014 23:19 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 22:31 DrBrundle wrote:Well, I tried SH/Mutas and Nydus play vs. mass mech (raven/tanks/viking/thor) and it does not work. Replay: http://drop.sc/387200League: Top diamond I played not very well, because it's the first time I try this style, following the advice some pages before. But seriously, how can this actually work? What did I do very much wrong? I didn't play well, this is the first time I try this style... Might I suggest you look at the replay yourself first, before you go in the internet looking for answers. It seems reasonably obvious to me... Finding it out for yourself is more helpful if you want to learn a style.
I checked it for myself and I don't know what I should do better (regarding unit composition, decisions, movement on map to make this style work). I would not ask if I had the answer for myself 
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United States4883 Posts
On October 09 2014 22:31 DrBrundle wrote:Well, I tried SH/Mutas and Nydus play vs. mass mech (raven/tanks/viking/thor) and it does not work. Replay: http://drop.sc/387200League: Top diamond I played not very well, because it's the first time I try this style, following the advice some pages before. But seriously, how can this actually work? What did I do very much wrong?
1) Drone scout is way too early. If you're going to drone scout, just scout at the same time as your other drone is going down to put down the hatch (~2:05). Your hatch is almost 10 seconds late for no reason. On top of your overlord covering your hatchery and your first overlord scouting NOTHING for fear of a marine, you're being way too overly safe. Just steer the first overlord toward the left side of the ramp and it cannot be picked off by an early marine. And either drone scout for proxies and send your overlord straight away OR scout your opponent's base with drone and cover your hatch with an overlord. You don't need to do play so overly safe.
2) Wtf 5:00 roach warren after not seeing anything? Plus auto spores. And spines. Jesus, you're playing WAYYYYYY too safe. Against reactor hellions before expansion, just go ZvZ BO (5:30 double gas -> double evo/RW -> lair/3rd base). Tbh, there might not be much to comment on after this point. You make up to 10 roaches before even starting lair or upgrades. Why?
3) You're so terrified of moving out of your base against a few hellions and widow mines until 10:00. By this time, your opponent already has 3 bases mining. You're still up on workers though because your opponent is terrible.
4) You make 0 mutalisks and instead sit on close to 70 dead supply of roaches that you don't use. Your SH control is also subpar. At 21:00, you are banking 5,500+ minerals and only have 5 bases. You should have every fucking base on the map at this point and massive creep spread. Part of the reason why you lose control of the map is that you have no vision nor any way to zone out stuff once your SHs release the locusts, which is why you need the mutas.
5) You seem to have forgotten that vipers are thing.
All in all, your early/mid game is very very very very very very poor. However, all things considered, your opponent was just as bad, so you were about even around 14:00. However, you committed heavily to SHs without any sort of other tech, sat on 70 supply of roaches doing nothing for close to 10:00, had no creep spread, didn't take extra bases, and did not get up to the money composition of SH/muta/viper + nydus. The ultimate result is that you spent a large portion of the game trying to juggle SHs without doing any real damage while the ravens sat around and accumulated energy. The huge dynamic of having SHs + mutas is that you can harass in two different places and ALWAYS do damage and ALWAYS maintain map control.
As far as muta control goes, you want to force seeker missiles, but back off the moment they go off. You don't want to suicide 30 mutas to get 4 ravens, you just want them to use as much energy as possible. Just use the vipers to take down turrets and planetary fortresses with blinding cloud and cause your opponent's defense to crumble from two different sources. The moment you can break into an opening on one side of the map, the weaker the other side is going to get shortly thereafter.
I highly suggest going mutas first before SHs, though some people disagree with me because you're vulnerable to 3-base attacks. Just switch to SHs around ~20 mutas, and you should be good.
Just work on your early/mid game and correct transitioning. A lot of the problem is that you were doing a lot of parts of what was suggested, but focusing on the wrong things at the wrong times, and missing the overall whole. Keep working on it. I'll see if I can dig up that KawaiiRice game (if he'll let me), so you can see firsthand how to do it.
KawaiiRice vs Avilo (ignore the early game with the awkward 2rax and further (bad) attempted cheese by avilo:
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On October 09 2014 03:38 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:14 Alchemik wrote:
eh, I'm pretty much fed up with ZvZ at the moment - can anyone recommend me some good all-ins for this match-up? I don't want to do a 9-pool or something like that, since it's not really an all-in
I remember the ~6:00 ling flood and a 10 pool bane my go-to zvz allin for 3p maps or if i feel like skipping the matchup is the miniraser build he used to beat snute in wcs eu 15g 14p 14h (if you micro your workers you should be able to make your hatch look like a standard 15p/15h to an overlord scout, which is basically the point of this build, but you dont absolutely need the worker micro - it just makes the illusion that much better) @100g ling speed and stop mining gas 3x pairs of lings 16 overlord 2x pairs of lings 18 queen lings and overlords pull back/kite away when your opponent's first round of defensive lings pops and engage again as your second wave hits, if you take a stupid fight then suddenly you just have fewer lings and less economy so you pretty much already lose.
alright, will try, thanks
On October 09 2014 03:58 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:38 brickrd wrote:On October 09 2014 03:14 Alchemik wrote:
eh, I'm pretty much fed up with ZvZ at the moment - can anyone recommend me some good all-ins for this match-up? I don't want to do a 9-pool or something like that, since it's not really an all-in
I remember the ~6:00 ling flood and a 10 pool bane my go-to zvz allin for 3p maps or if i feel like skipping the matchup is the miniraser build he used to beat snute in wcs eu 15g 14p 14h (if you micro your workers you should be able to make your hatch look like a standard 15p/15h to an overlord scout, which is basically the point of this build, but you dont absolutely need the worker micro - it just makes the illusion that much better) @100g ling speed and stop mining gas 3x pairs of lings 16 overlord 2x pairs of lings 18 queen lings and overlords pull back/kite away when your opponent's first round of defensive lings pops and engage again as your second wave hits, if you take a stupid fight then suddenly you just have fewer lings and less economy so you pretty much already lose. Any pre-lair timing is really strong. For instance, you can do a roach/bane all-in that hits around 9:00, just before lair units are starting to get produced. You can also do a ling/speedbane attack that hits at about the same time. Overall, anything that hits between 7:30-9:00 is really REALLY strong in ZvZ, especially since it's so hard to scout other than checking gases.
with how much stuff would that ling/speedbane all-in hit? I don't think there's a build for it anywhere, so I have to make it myself I guess
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United States4883 Posts
On October 10 2014 04:28 Alchemik wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:38 brickrd wrote:On October 09 2014 03:14 Alchemik wrote:
eh, I'm pretty much fed up with ZvZ at the moment - can anyone recommend me some good all-ins for this match-up? I don't want to do a 9-pool or something like that, since it's not really an all-in
I remember the ~6:00 ling flood and a 10 pool bane my go-to zvz allin for 3p maps or if i feel like skipping the matchup is the miniraser build he used to beat snute in wcs eu 15g 14p 14h (if you micro your workers you should be able to make your hatch look like a standard 15p/15h to an overlord scout, which is basically the point of this build, but you dont absolutely need the worker micro - it just makes the illusion that much better) @100g ling speed and stop mining gas 3x pairs of lings 16 overlord 2x pairs of lings 18 queen lings and overlords pull back/kite away when your opponent's first round of defensive lings pops and engage again as your second wave hits, if you take a stupid fight then suddenly you just have fewer lings and less economy so you pretty much already lose. alright, will try, thanks Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:58 SC2John wrote:On October 09 2014 03:38 brickrd wrote:On October 09 2014 03:14 Alchemik wrote:
eh, I'm pretty much fed up with ZvZ at the moment - can anyone recommend me some good all-ins for this match-up? I don't want to do a 9-pool or something like that, since it's not really an all-in
I remember the ~6:00 ling flood and a 10 pool bane my go-to zvz allin for 3p maps or if i feel like skipping the matchup is the miniraser build he used to beat snute in wcs eu 15g 14p 14h (if you micro your workers you should be able to make your hatch look like a standard 15p/15h to an overlord scout, which is basically the point of this build, but you dont absolutely need the worker micro - it just makes the illusion that much better) @100g ling speed and stop mining gas 3x pairs of lings 16 overlord 2x pairs of lings 18 queen lings and overlords pull back/kite away when your opponent's first round of defensive lings pops and engage again as your second wave hits, if you take a stupid fight then suddenly you just have fewer lings and less economy so you pretty much already lose. Any pre-lair timing is really strong. For instance, you can do a roach/bane all-in that hits around 9:00, just before lair units are starting to get produced. You can also do a ling/speedbane attack that hits at about the same time. Overall, anything that hits between 7:30-9:00 is really REALLY strong in ZvZ, especially since it's so hard to scout other than checking gases. with how much stuff would that ling/speedbane all-in hit? I don't think there's a build for it anywhere, so I have to make it myself I guess
Yeah, just play around with stuff...try adapting some ZvT bane busts to it. I think the general idea is like 100 gas -> speed, 50 gas -> baneling nest, next safe 100 gas -> lair. Then go up to 2 gases, 2 base saturation (~38 drones), and mass ling/bane + bane speed when possible. Also good to shove away the first overlord with a queen or two to hide the attack. Assuming you do everything correct, I think it hits around 9:00 with a fuckton of speedbanes lol.
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Hey guys I'm a returning player from Wings of Liberty where I was high masters.
I have a lot of things I don't understand right now with the new units and the other changes.
With ZvT the early game is a big problem for me right now with the early hellbat pushes. Before I would handle pressure easily with zerg/baneling but now hellbats are completely wiping out my entire defense. Should I be making roaches or swarm hosts? Also don't have a big idea
With ZvP i'm completely clueless. Should I still be going for roach builds and pressuring a lot while hitting supply cap at like 12-13 minutes? Or should I be making swarm hosts? Also I have no idea what I'm supposed to do late game against Protoss. In particular, I get screwed by Skytoss. Infestors aren't nearly as good and I'm getting wrecked HT/Chargelot/VoidRay compositions.
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On October 11 2014 10:38 TrayvonMartin wrote:
Hey guys I'm a returning player from Wings of Liberty where I was high masters.
I have a lot of things I don't understand right now with the new units and the other changes.
With ZvT the early game is a big problem for me right now with the early hellbat pushes. Before I would handle pressure easily with zerg/baneling but now hellbats are completely wiping out my entire defense. Should I be making roaches or swarm hosts? Also don't have a big idea
With ZvP i'm completely clueless. Should I still be going for roach builds and pressuring a lot while hitting supply cap at like 12-13 minutes? Or should I be making swarm hosts? Also I have no idea what I'm supposed to do late game against Protoss. In particular, I get screwed by Skytoss. Infestors aren't nearly as good and I'm getting wrecked HT/Chargelot/VoidRay compositions.
Yeah Roaches will deal with HB quite well. It's kind of the roaches you take whenn you see a Protoss put down a pylon at 7". That kind of roaches. You can switch back to ling/bling after that if you want. Just don't overcommit on roaches.
For ZvP i'll wait for a guy that was actually your level to help since i just base trade mass muta each time :p
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On October 11 2014 10:38 TrayvonMartin wrote:
Hey guys I'm a returning player from Wings of Liberty where I was high masters.
I have a lot of things I don't understand right now with the new units and the other changes.
With ZvT the early game is a big problem for me right now with the early hellbat pushes. Before I would handle pressure easily with zerg/baneling but now hellbats are completely wiping out my entire defense. Should I be making roaches or swarm hosts? Also don't have a big idea
With ZvP i'm completely clueless. Should I still be going for roach builds and pressuring a lot while hitting supply cap at like 12-13 minutes? Or should I be making swarm hosts? Also I have no idea what I'm supposed to do late game against Protoss. In particular, I get screwed by Skytoss. Infestors aren't nearly as good and I'm getting wrecked HT/Chargelot/VoidRay compositions.
Hi, for ZvT i had a lot of success with roaches instead of speedlings if you go pool first you can delay zerglingspeed untill after lair, defend reaper and sneak by a pair of zerglings to scout / delay his cc. Build i use goes like this:
15 Pool
15 Hatch
15 Overlord, Queen, Pair of lings
go up to 3 Queens
~4:40 double Gas
5:30-6:00 Roach warren
make ~ 6 Roaches and take your 3rd
this will allow you to push away the usual pressure so you can spread your creep, and hold long enaugh so you can add queens / roaches against heavier pressure.
As for ZvP im trying to figure that out myself, havent found a build yet that will get you into the midgame as comfortably as in ZvT.
Against chargelot/archon/ht/voidray swarmhosts are much better that infestors, use queens+hydras to defend against voidrays and only get infestor when you have swarmhosts allready.
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I have a general question regarding mid and lategame ZvP. I don't really enjoy playing Swarmhosts. I like straight up engagements with Roach/Hydra/Viper or Ling/Ultra/Infestor way more. But for me it seems impossible to use this styles once the Protoss has his deathball with Archons, HTs, Collosi, Immortals and Voidrays. It's just waaaay too much AoE for any Zerg unit to handle besides Swarmhost.
Is it a design issue that forces me to use Swarmhosts agains Protoss? Are there magical ways to engage those deathballs with a none Swarmhost-style? I'd really appreciate an answer to this problem besides 'don't let Protoss get to this stage' because there are just even games where your opponent does not make stupid mistakes so you can finish him off early.
My timings in ZvP are working very well, but when it comes to lategame and I don't decide to you swarmhosts, I usually always lose the game.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 11 2014 22:43 KaneMX wrote:
I have a general question regarding mid and lategame ZvP. I don't really enjoy playing Swarmhosts. I like straight up engagements with Roach/Hydra/Viper or Ling/Ultra/Infestor way more. But for me it seems impossible to use this styles once the Protoss has his deathball with Archons, HTs, Collosi, Immortals and Voidrays. It's just waaaay too much AoE for any Zerg unit to handle besides Swarmhost.
Is it a design issue that forces me to use Swarmhosts agains Protoss? Are there magical ways to engage those deathballs with a none Swarmhost-style? I'd really appreciate an answer to this problem besides 'don't let Protoss get to this stage' because there are just even games where your opponent does not make stupid mistakes so you can finish him off early.
My timings in ZvP are working very well, but when it comes to lategame and I don't decide to you swarmhosts, I usually always lose the game.
The only other late game deathball that consistently works against Protoss is Blord/ultra/queen + infestor/viper (+ corruptors). This composition works a lot like old Blord pushes...you just slowly push, let the broodlings do damage, and blinding cloud/fungal if the Protoss tries to engage (See: Patience vs Jaedong). The only problem is...Blords become completely obsolete if your opponent manages to get tempests out.
Otherwise, yes, you HAVE to go swarm hosts at some point if you want to play into the late game. Another good way to avoid this is to study soO's games. soO is a very mid game player, so he generally pulls the mid game out for as long as possible. Muta/corruptor does this pretty well since it forces the Protoss to make a lot of phoenixes, take bases slower, and tech up more slowly in general. There was a guy above who talked about always base trading in ZvP...if you don't want to play swarm hosts, you'll end up in this situation more often than not.
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After a long pause from SC2, what are (currently) the basic openings/strategies/builds for all three matchups?
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as someone fairly new the last 20 pages are so are full of awesome content going in the three matchups if you have time to check them out, lots of detailed posts, SC2John is pretty awesome
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Been afk for close to a year. I came back and watched pro streams like JD and in ZvZ they almost always go for roaches. Well today I lost 2 games ZvZ where my opponent went for muta/ling/blings and then added ultras. My roach/hydra army got crushed. Any tips?
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Thoughts on Hyun's no muta straight into hive broodlords style? Is it some metagame thing or are there upsides for lower level players like me to mimic?
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On October 13 2014 08:05 phfantunes wrote:
Thoughts on Hyun's no muta straight into hive broodlords style? Is it some metagame thing or are there upsides for lower level players like me to mimic? It is a meta game thing but you can mimic it just fine, since it's a pretty strong build.
Important bits are to skip on spire upgrades to have more gas and to not forget those queens :D.
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Wanted to write a guide on modern TvZ, but not gonna go through with it. But if someone is still interested here is the hellbat part of it (not very polished):
This push will usually hit you between 8' and 8'30'' and there are a few variations of it. Here I will cover the most popular and probably strongest one, the medivac/hellbat/marine attack, but others can be defended very similarly.
The easiest way to find out that your opponent will be hellbat pushing you is to actually see a very early armory. But also just the production setup and their add-ons can tell you the story. For this purpose, you should sacrifice an Overlord into the enemy production area (usually around his ramp) where his barracks/factory/starport have to be located*. The timing for the overlord sacrifice is around 6' into the game.
If it is a hellbat push, you will usually scout a part of the following setup:
1 barracks
1 factory with reactor
1 starport
1 armory
what the Terran should not be able to afford (so it is a tell for a different build) at that time is if he wants to push is:
A 3rd Command Center
researching Stim in a techlabed barracks
(double) engineering bay upgrades
The best way to defend this push is by building a baneling nest or a roach warren immediately after scouting the setup around 6:00-6:30 into the game.
As said, the armory confirms the push, yet scouting something like a reactored barracks, a reactored factory and a starport early should already put you on the alert. As general rule of thumb to fight early Terran aggression it is always recommended to build a baneling nest or roach warren early anytime you do not scout the opponent going for a build including 3 fast command centers before the starport. Even a baneling morph upon seeing hellbats transforming or starting roaches meanwhile can safe your (gaming) life if you can dance around enough to buy some time.
As a last note I want to recommend never taking hellbat pushes straight on. What you rather want to do is run around on creep with your queens and kite them around. Buying you time until your reinforcements pop. Do not in any case, engage the hellbat push with low amounts of zerglings or banelings. Those will just get melted and the hellbats get healed by the medivacs.
*those buildings are located close to each other early on, because usually the barracks has to build a reactor for the factory and then swap with it. And flying his building setup all across his base heavily delays Terran build orders.
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On October 10 2014 02:21 SC2John wrote:
1) Drone scout is way too early. If you're going to drone scout, just scout at the same time as your other drone is going down to put down the hatch (~2:05). Your hatch is almost 10 seconds late for no reason. On top of your overlord covering your hatchery and your first overlord scouting NOTHING for fear of a marine, you're being way too overly safe. Just steer the first overlord toward the left side of the ramp and it cannot be picked off by an early marine. And either drone scout for proxies and send your overlord straight away OR scout your opponent's base with drone and cover your hatch with an overlord. You don't need to do play so overly safe.
No that's a fine drone scout timing. Usually you can drone scout for a proxy and either make the hatch first, or 15pool if you find a proxy.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 13 2014 23:18 Scrubby-onE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2014 02:21 SC2John wrote:
1) Drone scout is way too early. If you're going to drone scout, just scout at the same time as your other drone is going down to put down the hatch (~2:05). Your hatch is almost 10 seconds late for no reason. On top of your overlord covering your hatchery and your first overlord scouting NOTHING for fear of a marine, you're being way too overly safe. Just steer the first overlord toward the left side of the ramp and it cannot be picked off by an early marine. And either drone scout for proxies and send your overlord straight away OR scout your opponent's base with drone and cover your hatch with an overlord. You don't need to do play so overly safe.
No that's a fine drone scout timing. Usually you can drone scout for a proxy and either make the hatch first, or 15pool if you find a proxy.
There's no reason to go pool first against 2rax other than ease. You can just as easily pull drones early to deal with it, especially if you scout it early with a drone. Pretty much the only time it gets tricky is when you have no idea that it's happening until the bunker is mostly or completely finished.
To be honest, there's no reason at all to go pool first in this matchup unless you're doing it blindly. Otherwise, your hatch first is going to be fine, assuming you're doing the proper scouting.
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On October 13 2014 23:56 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 23:18 Scrubby-onE wrote:On October 10 2014 02:21 SC2John wrote:
1) Drone scout is way too early. If you're going to drone scout, just scout at the same time as your other drone is going down to put down the hatch (~2:05). Your hatch is almost 10 seconds late for no reason. On top of your overlord covering your hatchery and your first overlord scouting NOTHING for fear of a marine, you're being way too overly safe. Just steer the first overlord toward the left side of the ramp and it cannot be picked off by an early marine. And either drone scout for proxies and send your overlord straight away OR scout your opponent's base with drone and cover your hatch with an overlord. You don't need to do play so overly safe.
No that's a fine drone scout timing. Usually you can drone scout for a proxy and either make the hatch first, or 15pool if you find a proxy. There's no reason to go pool first against 2rax other than ease. You can just as easily pull drones early to deal with it, especially if you scout it early with a drone. Pretty much the only time it gets tricky is when you have no idea that it's happening until the bunker is mostly or completely finished. To be honest, there's no reason at all to go pool first in this matchup unless you're doing it blindly. Otherwise, your hatch first is going to be fine, assuming you're doing the proper scouting.
"Ease" sounds like a pretty good reason actually, doesn't it? I don't drone-scout in ZvT, but pool first with 6 lings should be the logical response to scouting a low SCV count. The early lings help more than anything against 2 rax. (You still have to pull drones against it, of course.)
There was a Reddit post about drone scouting in ZvT a few days ago. Maybe it's helpful to someone: http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/comments/2i6b3h/how_do_you_get_ahead_after_a_proxy_2_rax/ckzsk46
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EPT
